SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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Thenir
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nirnaeth
I'd want the devs to show their story - meaningful, deep and most importantly logic - without worrying about shippers' expectations. Love has never been the focal point of FFVII and it won't start now and Cloud's emotional arc has already been solved with AC.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Is this poll a joke, or didn't they understand the story that is told in FFVII? Seriously, all those people who pretend there is no canon pair in FFVII aggravate me.
And @Thenir I'll have to disagree with you, the love story is important enough that it's actually the heart of Cloud's problem (the fear of being not good enough for Tifa) and the reason why everything started (because he wanted to impress the girl). It's also what gives him (and her) strength and reason to fight. All in all, that does make Cloud and Tifa's love story at the heart of the game. And their backstories are also entwined and rooted similarly because it is the important part that gets revealed in the Lifestream scene. This is why I keep saying that the Lifestream scene is the scene that resolves the LT; we see where are Cloud's feelings, and that they make such a big part of who he is that whatever he felt for Aerith was literally dwarfed by his feelings for Tifa.
The hilighted part reads: Even if his comrades don’t return, Cloud believes that he can fight until the end as long as he has Tifa by his side (translated by @odekopeko).
And @Thenir I'll have to disagree with you, the love story is important enough that it's actually the heart of Cloud's problem (the fear of being not good enough for Tifa) and the reason why everything started (because he wanted to impress the girl). It's also what gives him (and her) strength and reason to fight. All in all, that does make Cloud and Tifa's love story at the heart of the game. And their backstories are also entwined and rooted similarly because it is the important part that gets revealed in the Lifestream scene. This is why I keep saying that the Lifestream scene is the scene that resolves the LT; we see where are Cloud's feelings, and that they make such a big part of who he is that whatever he felt for Aerith was literally dwarfed by his feelings for Tifa.
The hilighted part reads: Even if his comrades don’t return, Cloud believes that he can fight until the end as long as he has Tifa by his side (translated by @odekopeko).
Thenir
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nirnaeth
@Eerie I'm not saying love isn't important, the opposite. The way the characters interact with each others and the emotional value of each interaction IS important and it's the cornerstone of every good story, especially this one that focuses so much on the protagonist's psyche.
That said, I do think love's not the main point of FFVII. It's part of it but the main theme has never been "the romance between Cloud and [girl's name]". I'm not sure how that Twitter OP can really expect a game made up of multiple parts, with the highest level of realism and detailed insights into the characters' feelings and motivations, can really end "up to the player's choice" or "open to interpretation". Some people probably can't figure what a huge amount of work it would be to create two different settings and different characters' developments for no reason but the mere sake of pleasing shippers. The devs should definitely tell their story without being worried to disappoint a part of the fans, like they did when they deepened Zack and Aerith's bond in Crisis Core and when they decided that Cloud and Tifa would have formed a family after the OG.
That OP is basing the poll on the belief that Remake will offer a different ending (I guess regarding Aerith's fate) so that the romantic outcome could be changed. But still, Cloud's character arc has already been resolved at the end of AC, his emotions and motivations have already been explained in terms of guilt toward Zack and Aerith, who share the same screentime and supporting role, and happiness and fear to fail again toward his family. That's it, like it or not, I don't see any reason to expect the devs to subvert their own story and create a different ending for the Remake, basically implying that AC (+two novels and DoC) is a bad and unsatisfying outcome that needs to be retconned (while using it anyway in Ever Crisis).
That said, I do think love's not the main point of FFVII. It's part of it but the main theme has never been "the romance between Cloud and [girl's name]". I'm not sure how that Twitter OP can really expect a game made up of multiple parts, with the highest level of realism and detailed insights into the characters' feelings and motivations, can really end "up to the player's choice" or "open to interpretation". Some people probably can't figure what a huge amount of work it would be to create two different settings and different characters' developments for no reason but the mere sake of pleasing shippers. The devs should definitely tell their story without being worried to disappoint a part of the fans, like they did when they deepened Zack and Aerith's bond in Crisis Core and when they decided that Cloud and Tifa would have formed a family after the OG.
That OP is basing the poll on the belief that Remake will offer a different ending (I guess regarding Aerith's fate) so that the romantic outcome could be changed. But still, Cloud's character arc has already been resolved at the end of AC, his emotions and motivations have already been explained in terms of guilt toward Zack and Aerith, who share the same screentime and supporting role, and happiness and fear to fail again toward his family. That's it, like it or not, I don't see any reason to expect the devs to subvert their own story and create a different ending for the Remake, basically implying that AC (+two novels and DoC) is a bad and unsatisfying outcome that needs to be retconned (while using it anyway in Ever Crisis).
I guess no one is diminishing the love aspect of the story. Its just that it isn't called Cloud, Aerith and Tifa, the 7th Final Romantic Fantasy of Love and Longing for a reason.Eerie said:
It's FF7, the story of corporate greed, life and loss, a weird parasitic alien and a hodgepodge gang of heroes with a common goal but each with their own internal motivations. And it just so happens some of these motivations are rooted in their feelings for other characters. Like every other RPG.
Even if the devs do subvert their own story and the rest of the compilation, it's probably to explore much larger themes like being able to challenge one's preordained fate / concept of space time etc.Thenir said:
It isn't because they caved because some bunch of shippers want Cloud to have a family with Aerith this time around. Which is the kind of weirdly entitled behavior I see on the Internet. That Square SHOULD have a multiple ending option cos we're a significant group of people who ship and SE SHOULD cater to us?
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Eerie
Fire and Blood
@Thenir: I agree with you. Just if you ignore the love story, you miss a big chunk of the story, and if you believe Cloud is in love with Aerith in ACC, then you completely MISS the point of loss and life of the story. That's what really aggravate me, the devs have said time and time again that the main theme is loss and life, and people just ignore it, distort it, make it disappear because if you don't get that Aerith is supposed to die to underline this loss, and how the others live on with that mark on them, then that theme is lost too.
I kind of agree with Eerie. While love is not the focal point of the game, is still a very important aspect that brings the hero and the heroine together.
Aside from that, I think the only characters from the main cast that were directly affected by Sephiroth actions (aka Nibelheim incident) before the start of the story were Cloud and Tifa too. The rest were more victims of Shira as a whole. The whole set up for them to be (and fight) together is there.
Their past, present and future is always about "them", in one way or another, from the start. Their are too tied together for "love" not be a thing, it doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective.
Even the way Cloud acted in Advent Children, he did all that because he loved her (the common trope of distancing yourself so your partner doesn't suffer). People just decided to ignored all of that because none of it fits their preset beliefs.
Aside from that, I think the only characters from the main cast that were directly affected by Sephiroth actions (aka Nibelheim incident) before the start of the story were Cloud and Tifa too. The rest were more victims of Shira as a whole. The whole set up for them to be (and fight) together is there.
Their past, present and future is always about "them", in one way or another, from the start. Their are too tied together for "love" not be a thing, it doesn't make sense from a narrative perspective.
Even the way Cloud acted in Advent Children, he did all that because he loved her (the common trope of distancing yourself so your partner doesn't suffer). People just decided to ignored all of that because none of it fits their preset beliefs.
While FFVII, ostensibly, is a story about a weird alien parasyte and a meteor crashing to earth,there is a reason William Faulkner said “The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself”.
In every (good) story, the actual events themselves are basically just the packaging that the actual story comes in. There are no stories about explosions, explosions are just used to make the story exciting. Same thing goes for meteors and alien parasyte.
The story of FFVII, like all stories, is about the human condition. In the case of ffvii the most important part is Clouds fake persona and the emotions that lead to it.
Now I won't say that the focus there is love, it's not, it's feelings of inadequacy, the fear of failure, questions concerning legacy and identity, all that stuff. But the love aspect still has an important part there, and is the prime instigator for those other experiences.
FFVII is not a love story, but it is more a story about love than it is about alien parasytes.
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
Uh, how does this multiple romance endings idea work? We assuming everyone lives? Or is Cloud gonna scuba dive in Mideel to her Lifestream fuck hut?
Big fat Vader nooooo to routes. This ain't a bloody dating simulator, not to mention the precedent it sets... fans at every future remake/remaster demanding to date Rydia/Quistis/Ashe/Cindy/etc.
Big fat Vader nooooo to routes. This ain't a bloody dating simulator, not to mention the precedent it sets... fans at every future remake/remaster demanding to date Rydia/Quistis/Ashe/Cindy/etc.
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Multiple timelines with multiple Clouds who get all the girls and dudes?
Eerie
Fire and Blood
It's honestly not happening, seeing how part 1 was made, we're not getting several endings. We have even less choices than in the OG! And they took the "more realistic, less imagination" route, which says it all. And that's even without mentioning that the OG story is already written all over Remake - Aerith's death, Cloud's troubles, the Lifestream scene. People focus way too much on chapter 18 when it's clear they want to give more consistance to their story, including the Compilation to it. They wouldn't do that if they were giving several endings. I keep saying it, but this ain't TW3.
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
This attitude in the replies to the poll that Cloud and Aerith are this grand epic love story and that Tifa is just a distraction to it definitely rubs me the wrong way…regardless of preferences, people really should stop ignoring the words of the creators on their own works
i went back and read the comments under the poll. Those people are 100% setting themselves up to disappoinment.
Is like that one quote about relationships... "when you see through rose colored glasses, all the red flags are just flags", or something like that.
MelodicEnigma
Pro Adventurer
Absolutely, I knew from just a glance, but I have regret on investigating further because my head hurts after reading some comments.
Gosh, it isn't even just about ignoring words of the creators or the work—there are some people who just want to hang onto their preferences/biases with deep conviction, even when it's irrationally negative, because it "has" to be done in order to avoid that inner-conflict from having a conflicting perspective. It doesn't help that some people got this way as a byproduct of having to defend their view for years, but I'm non-sympathetic at this point (except for those being attacked for just minding their business and having fun, like artists). In this ain't one side, Twitter single-handedly shows it's a petri dish for all sides of the "war". It just feels like the Clerith side (the bad apples, ofc) is worse because there are aspects of their views that are blatantly contrary to truth—it's not even just shipping, I see this happening for other things, even localization conversations, and this definitely isn't restricted to one side. A conviction to be negative and unreasonable—I don't see this as any "fix", really, because it's just this human condition thing where there shall exist people who do and think a certain way regardless of a general consensus on the flaws to that path, like that of racism and such (the problem isn't equitable at all, but you get my point lol). What was it? "You can't fix stupid", mostly when it's an active, determined choice.
I just wish it didn't feel like something that annoyingly spreads like some disease and it was just an underground type deal. Now it's just everywhere I turn, especially on Twitter, even on official SE/FF posts, and it's maddening.
Gosh, it isn't even just about ignoring words of the creators or the work—there are some people who just want to hang onto their preferences/biases with deep conviction, even when it's irrationally negative, because it "has" to be done in order to avoid that inner-conflict from having a conflicting perspective. It doesn't help that some people got this way as a byproduct of having to defend their view for years, but I'm non-sympathetic at this point (except for those being attacked for just minding their business and having fun, like artists). In this ain't one side, Twitter single-handedly shows it's a petri dish for all sides of the "war". It just feels like the Clerith side (the bad apples, ofc) is worse because there are aspects of their views that are blatantly contrary to truth—it's not even just shipping, I see this happening for other things, even localization conversations, and this definitely isn't restricted to one side. A conviction to be negative and unreasonable—I don't see this as any "fix", really, because it's just this human condition thing where there shall exist people who do and think a certain way regardless of a general consensus on the flaws to that path, like that of racism and such (the problem isn't equitable at all, but you get my point lol). What was it? "You can't fix stupid", mostly when it's an active, determined choice.
I just wish it didn't feel like something that annoyingly spreads like some disease and it was just an underground type deal. Now it's just everywhere I turn, especially on Twitter, even on official SE/FF posts, and it's maddening.
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
I don’t keep track of who posts what, it’s just stuff like this pops up in the #FF7Remake tag from time to time, so I guess that does explain the nature of the replies lol.
I can’t imagine being a shipper of what is essentially a headcanon version of a ship, it just feels fake. I dunno what people who think like this are gonna expect once the remake adapts disc 2 unless they really change things up after all.
I can’t imagine being a shipper of what is essentially a headcanon version of a ship, it just feels fake. I dunno what people who think like this are gonna expect once the remake adapts disc 2 unless they really change things up after all.
rkss
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Me
From a non shipper's pov, I always see these people as vocal minorities and twitter is just twitter... FF7 has millions fans and some random poll on the internet does not reflect the fanbase.
Also whatever happy Disney ending they're expecting, it's just not going to happen because the narrative doesn't allow it. In the remake, they've gone all out with Aerith's power, she's like Gandalf of ff7, an author-surrogate. Just imagine she could just summon dues exEagles Holy every time narrative demands it then what would be Cloud and the gang' role again? Why would we even need them? For the sake of the story, it just can't happen.
Also whatever happy Disney ending they're expecting, it's just not going to happen because the narrative doesn't allow it. In the remake, they've gone all out with Aerith's power, she's like Gandalf of ff7, an author-surrogate. Just imagine she could just summon dues ex
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
This is where I'm at. I don't write fanfic, so it seems pointless to go outside the realm of what is canon.
Leafonthebreeze
Any/All
- AKA
- Leaf
See, I don't write fanfic but really enjoy wandering off into "what if" headcanons about different pairings that did not and never will happen in canon. I guess you could say I "ship" say, Tseng/Aerith or Reno/Tifa, in that I like thinking about them and will consume other people's fan content of them, but I would never try to argue that they are canon, or that they're in any way better or more justified than the canon pairings - I also really like Cloud/Tifa and Aerith/Zack, and Reno/Rude.
I guess I understand wanting to really dig into Cloud/Aerith and what makes them tick and what could have been, but not the need to tear down Cloud/Tifa or somehow to prove that the other one is better and obviously more canon, same for any pairing combination.
Or I guess I do understand where it comes from, but like seriously - pls stop hinging your self worth and identity over whether Nojima wants the main character to bone the girl you most identify with/also want to bone.
Odysseus
Ninja Potato
- AKA
- Ody
As someone who has spent months reading and making a book out of a fic about it, can can confirm with no uncertainty that Vincent/Aeris is the one true OTP.
I feel like this is how most people who hinge their lives on shipping feel.
ph14basicbitch
shinra merch buyer
- AKA
- koda
Correct. My life depends on shipping I do indeed find it pointless to go outside. (WFH helps, of course.)
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
That sounds fine, as long as it's not being pushed into what is canon. I can only speak for myself, but the my few experiences with clessies and cleriths have never been pleasant
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
I will say that Cloud and Aerith have a lot more going for them than a crack ship. That relationship was deliberately framed as a viable couple only to later be subverted which probably amplifies the LTD further, the fact that one ship had all these tropes thrown at the audiences (doubly so in the remake) and had all of the potential in the world yet ultimately ends in tragedy. Some people take solace in the idea that “death doesn’t truly separate people in fantasy” but seeing as that’s the whole point with Aerith’s death, some people just won’t accept the story for what it is.
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
This is why I'd like to see some stuff from "maiden who travels the planet" make it into remake. If we see Aerith/Zack have some sort of romantic interaction within the lifestream, maybe those Clerith's will get some closure