SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Maidenofwar]

They are making it as obvious as possible that Cloud crushes hard on Aerith, and Aerith falls in love with him, that Aerith is the main heroine/female lead of FFVII. That it is indeed a relationship, as valid as any of FFVII's main ship.

This isn't optional-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBGQGM-W4AEFUKS?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBGQGYnXYAAemTK?format=jpg&name=medium

Cloud and Aerith's date being the background for the game's theme song information and the singer learning about Aerith, Cloud, and the story to form a connection for her performance isn't optional.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBGM1V6X0AAI0jH?format=jpg&name=medium

It might be "optional" but it'll still be important. I also don't think all of it will be optional either, when it comes to build up, aftermath and Cloud's relationship with Aerith.

 

[Theozilla]

Yeah I think most (rational) people would agree that Aerith’s Gold Saucer date fits the best as being the most canon/default of all the Gold Saucer dates for the FFVII story.

And considering where this installment of the remake project ends, Aerith getting special focus and attention both marketing-wise and narratively is wholly justified and understandable.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Lol, but no seriously. I genuinely love the type of poster who signs up for the forum here, leaves an incoherent insane screed, fucks off forever and then smugly thinks to themself,

"Yeah, I taught those fuckers. I'm clearly right."

We need more of this. It's pure entertainment and makes waiting for Rebirth so much more exciting.

It's been decades, folks. Decades and we've finally been brought to heel. Pack it up. It's over. It's more over than thought possible.

 

[null]

They are making it as obvious as possible that Cloud crushes hard on Aerith, and Aerith falls in love with him, that Aerith is the main heroine/female lead of FFVII. That it is indeed a relationship, as valid as any of FFVII's main ship.

This isn't optional-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBGQGM-W4AEFUKS?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBGQGYnXYAAemTK?format=jpg&name=medium

Cloud and Aerith's date being the background for the game's theme song information and the singer learning about Aerith, Cloud, and the story to form a connection for her performance isn't optional.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBGM1V6X0AAI0jH?format=jpg&name=medium

It might be "optional" but it'll still be important. I also don't think all of it will be optional either, when it comes to build up, aftermath and Cloud's relationship with Aerith.

I'm glad they're not half assing it. This is Aerith's moment. Knock it out of the fucking park. Tell me a story of a love that can never be, not some vague milquetoast drivel that "incorporates the player's feelings", designed to appease everyone but satisfies no one. Make it bittersweet as all holy hell. Make me hurt.

And next time Cloud can take Tifa in manly fashion in the grass while the whole crew watches. Hold the line SE.

 

[Roundhouse]

I am honestly really surprised at the heavy Clerith in the trailer. I had kind of given up hope for that element in remake, because I thought they were going in more of a Zerith direction. Obviously I don't think this is gonna all end in some happy ever after scenario for Cloud and Aerith, but I'm just glad to see the romantic context there. Fans have tried to shut down Clerith perspectives so much over time that it feels really refreshing to see it acknowledged in the actual material itself in a big way. (And I say this as someone who also sees the cool points of Cloti and Zerith, I think those are neat too.)

 

[billy22]

Updated list of BlankBeat's Victims... except it's just all the staff and lifestream users.

I know you've had a whole weekend to erect your cope but the spiraling social media meltdowns among cloti and zerith, even up to and including harassing Nojima over it, have said enough.

This forum spent decades denying Clerith with the most desperate technicalities but now Square releases a trailer full of explicitly chosen moments to frame their new theme song. Then put those moments in the background of its page about the song. And the singer of the song mentions Cloud and Aerith by name as those she had to learn about to prepare for the song. They spent money and marketing capital on this. Against which your words are meaningless. After all, who are you anyway? It's a clear case of actions (and effort) speaking louder than words (and sophistry).

What even are the coping mechanisms this time? That you can still hold out hope these were all clumsy misstatements? That none of them force you in particular to accept what they're saying? I mean, I'm sorry, but your positions aren't above the same scrutiny-- if we can't take all of what we just saw seriously, why should we take you seriously?

Are you going to come back when Aerith dies?

I am honestly really surprised at the heavy Clerith in the trailer.

I'm not. It's the game she's supposed to die in. Square knows that every OG fan knows this. So they played it up.

If they really do intend to kill her, she needs to get the focus as much as possible in this game to make the player care.

 

[frosty]

I'm glad they're not half assing it. This is Aerith's moment. Knock it out of the fucking park. Tell me a story of a love that can never be, not some vague milquetoast drivel that "incorporates the player's feelings", designed to appease everyone but satisfies no one. Make it bittersweet as all holy hell. Make me hurt.

The reunion with Zack is gonna be awkward af tho. The few awkward af moments for me is going to me:

In game:
- Having Cloud beat her in Temple of the Ancients
- Having Cloud try to kill her while she's in prayer on that altar

Game promotions
- How they will handle the lead up to launch when they inadvertently have a big media blitz and media interviews and:
- There is no Sakurai there, because I imagine a man who betrayed his wife and had years long affairs is not a good look for the brand and the story as the main character

- Briana White/ Maaya and / or Britt Baron/Ayumi Ito having to field weird LTD related questions.

And next time Cloud can take Tifa in manly fashion in the grass while the whole crew watches. Hold the line SE.

SE has been strangely on-time with their releases. One of the things I suspect they did to optimize production timeline and costs was to shoot FF16 and FFVII Rebirth/Part3 simultaneously. This suspicion was only made stronger when I found out the actors for Cloud and Tifa were Clive and Jill and there are some very similar scenes between them both, and Jill having the exact same hair as Tifa because hair is difficult to animate.

Absolutely not surprised if the highwind scene = Cliji's

Spoiler

sex on the rocks scene in a different angle.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Ugh, just knock me out and wake me up when the remake trilogy is over so I can skip over the worst of the inevitable shipping shitstorm

 

[frosty]

Ugh, just knock me out and wake me up when the remake trilogy is over so I can skip over the worst of the inevitable shipping shitstorm

Just stay off X and you'll be fine lol

 

[null]

The reunion with Zack is gonna be awkward af tho. The few awkward af moments for me is going to me:

In game:
- Having Cloud beat her in Temple of the Ancients
- Having Cloud try to kill her while she's in prayer on that altar

Just have the Whispers beat her. They're already awkward, might as well keep it contained.

SE has been strangely on-time with their releases. One of the things I suspect they did to optimize production timeline and costs was to shoot FF16 and FFVII Rebirth/Part3 simultaneously. This suspicion was only made stronger when I found out the actors for Cloud and Tifa were Clive and Jill and there are some very similar scenes between them both, and Jill having the exact same hair as Tifa because hair is difficult to animate.

Absolutely not surprised if the highwind scene = Cliji's

Spoiler

sex on the rocks scene in a different angle.

LOL now I literally can't unsee the butt naked conversation under the Highwind for upwards of 10 minutes, Cloud's all angsty and Tifa's all strong and supportive, just slap a coat of paint on that scene and ship it (no pun intended)

 

[Lex]

The fact that a very minor sect of shippers are still enraged at this website for debates that happened here literally over ten years ago, with people who haven't posted here for YEARS, is both hilarious and terrifying.

In more sane news, I was actually really excited to see some Clerith rep in the latest trailer, it's about time! The song is beautiful too. I'm just sad that any shipping moment these days is tainted with the "oh no, they'll be going nuts on twitter".

I still remember when the Remake demo was being datamined by a random discord and someone posted the screenshot of Cloud and Tifa hugging - the initial accusation was that this website were the ones "leaking" (false), that this website has a "Cloti bias" and therefore were selectively leaking only screenshots of Cloud and Tifa (ridiculous, hilarious, and false) and that morphed into "TLS must have infiltrated Square Enix", followed by a harrassment campaign against me on Twitter when I asked them to remove the initial slander, which I only arsed myself to do because they publicly claimed we were the ones doing the datamining and leaking AND were talking about reporting this site for it.

More than anything I just wish the VII fandom as a whole would let go of all the weird baggage and learn to get along. We're all here because we love this game. But it's one thing to passionately like something, it's quite another to dedicate 10+ years of your life to "proving" validity of a ship by constantly arguing with random people on the internet. En masse if that applies to you, seek therapy, genuinely, because there is a void in your life that you're filling with the wrong thing, and that void will NEVER be full if you don't identify it and find the right thing to fill it with (hint, it's not a ship from a video game). This is the exact same behaviour we saw from... we'll call them the Jessie fanatic.

I'm the geekiest geek in the geekery and will always love FFVII, but some of these extremist shippers desperately need to touch grass.

 

[Stiggie]

We're all here because we love this game.

Do we? Because the only reason I love this game is because it's not what Cleriths claim it is. That, to me, is what separates it from being genius to being generic trash.
We do not love the same game, the thing Cleriths love, and the thing I love, are barely the same story, the commonalities are superficial at best, and that's not just because of shipping, although people like to trivialize peoples opinions by pretending that that's all it's about. Going: "they're just obsessed with who Cloud wants to bang" in order to justify marginalizing them and not having to listen to their opinions and criticisms.

But the problem is that in coherently written stories things are interwoven, you can't change one thing without that having implications that reverberate through the rest of the story. For me, the story Cleriths present is absolutely devoid of value, I see it whenever I have to listen to them explain Clouds motivations and struggles and see them turn Cloud from a well written, conflicted, and interesting character, to a generic edgy asshole with the depth of a puddle. 95% of the dislike of Advent children I blame on Cleriths misinforming people about the story and then having the story be judged by that shallow misrepresentation. Yes, if Clerith were true I would also think Advent children was shit.

I like NOTHING about what Cleriths want me to believe this story is about, and if I were to believe that the story was actually about that I'd regard it as a vacuous, poorly written mess on the level of the worst twilight fan-fiction. So when you say we're all here because we love the game, I have to disagree. To me, this entire interpretation is like a cancer slowly rotting away something I love. Every time Square-enix leans into it in order to bank in on peoples love for bad story telling a part of something I love dies and it's their fault.

To me, the idea of parading around Aeriths corpse by using the lure of her potential survival as some sort carrot to manipulate the audiences emotions with is absolutely vile. And if square-enix somehow lets her survive, then the messages that I took to heart from the original are dead to me instead. And I will no longer be a fan. If they decide to actually make the romantic feelings between Aerith and Cloud genuine, I will no longer be a fan. Not because I will have changed, but because the thing I loved would have been taken away from me.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Well Advent Children already answered the question "who is special to Cloud" The answer - everyone. Maybe you hated that, I don't know.

I mean anyone who expects Cloud to think, feel, treat, regard either Aerith or Tifa as less than dirt beneath his feet is going to be solely disappointed. The game doesn't care for the player's choice. Maybe, maybe just Cloud always crushed on the both of them, and some people just got, and had it wrong all this time.

Somebody is going to take that L, maybe in the end most everyone will have to take a little bit.

 

[Stiggie]

Well Advent Children already answered the question "who is special to Cloud" The answer - everyone. Maybe you hated that, I don't know.

I mean anyone who expects Cloud to think, feel, treat, regard either Aerith or Tifa as less than dirt beneath his feet is going to be solely disappointed. The game doesn't care for the player's choice. Maybe, maybe just Cloud always crushed on the both of them, and some people just got, and had it wrong all this time.

No, "who is special, everyone" is exactly the right answer, but that's different to "who does cloud want to bang, everyone". And I think that matters because that difference lies at the root of Clouds actions and is vital to understanding what specific struggles he's going through and what messages can be learned from it. One of the most common things I hear people say is "why do you guys make everything about romance?". When I hear this I feel like I'm living in the upside down world because if I had to summarize my exact stance in one sentence it would probably be "not everything is about romance".

 

[ForceStealer]

Do we? Because the only reason I love this game is because it's not what Cleriths claim it is. That, to me, is what separates it from being genius to being generic trash.
We do not love the same game, the thing Cleriths love, and the thing I love, are barely the same story, the commonalities are superficial at best, and that's not just because of shipping, although people like to trivialize peoples opinions by pretending that that's all it's about. Going: "they're just obsessed with who Cloud wants to bang" in order to justify marginalizing them and not having to listen to their opinions and criticisms.

But the problem is that in coherently written stories things are interwoven, you can't change one thing without that having implications that reverberate through the rest of the story. For me, the story Cleriths present is absolutely devoid of value, I see it whenever I have to listen to them explain Clouds motivations and struggles and see them turn Cloud from a well written, conflicted, and interesting character, to a generic edgy asshole with the depth of a puddle. 95% of the dislike of Advent children I blame on Cleriths misinforming people about the story and then having the story be judged by that shallow misrepresentation. Yes, if Clerith were true I would also think Advent children was shit.

I like NOTHING about what Cleriths want me to believe this story is about, and if I were to believe that the story was actually about that I'd regard it as a vacuous, poorly written mess on the level of the worst twilight fan-fiction. So when you say we're all here because we love the game, I have to disagree. To me, this entire interpretation is like a cancer slowly rotting away something I love. Every time Square-enix leans into it in order to bank in on peoples love for bad story telling a part of something I love dies and it's their fault.

To me, the idea of parading around Aeriths corpse by using the lure of her potential survival as some sort carrot to manipulate the audiences emotions with is absolutely vile. And if square-enix somehow lets her survive, then the messages that I took to heart from the original are dead to me instead. And I will no longer be a fan. If they decide to actually make the romantic feelings between Aerith and Cloud genuine, I will no longer be a fan. Not because I will have changed, but because the thing I loved would have been taken away from me.

A lot of these word choices are just so much stronger than the subject at hand calls for, lol. But in any case, if you actually thought Square wouldn't lean into the LTD in the remake, you were kidding yourself.

 

[LNK]

No, "who is special, everyone" is exactly the right answer, but that's different to "who does cloud want to bang, everyone"

While true, we don't actually know whether or not Cloud wanted to "bang" Aerith. It's also not really relevant. Clearly, Cloud liked Aerith more than he did anyone not named Tifa. Can't we just leave it at that? It's more reflective of real world relationships anyway.

 

[Stiggie]

A lot of these word choices are just so much stronger than the subject at hand calls for, lol. But in any case, if you actually thought Square wouldn't lean into the LTD in the remake, you were kidding yourself.

No, I always thought they would, that's why I have a problem with it. It just makes me roll me eyes. It would be like remaking FFIX and making the entire game revolve around trying to squeeze as much juice out of Vivis fate as possible just because you know people love Vivi. By leaning into it too much you ruin it. It becomes overly dramatic, incongruent with the rest of the story, and fourth wall breaking since in these overly dramatic scenes I can now see the hands of the developer trying to use some version of memberberries to play to the viewer, which interferes with my suspension of disbelief. When I know something like this is going to happen, and I then see it happen, I just sigh and lose respect for the story and the developers.

I don't think the word choices are stronger than required, they were chosen to reflect how I genuinely feel. I love the story of FFVII, and it, along with a VERY small selection of other stories, have had a real and massive impact on my life. And this would essentially not only destroy it, but retroactively undo it, I would not even have FFVII anymore. One of my top10 favorite things that I've enjoyed in life, would be taken away from me. You might as well burn down my childhood home since those memories are only marginally more precious.

While true, we don't actually know whether or not Cloud wanted to "bang" Aerith. It's also not really relevant. Clearly, Cloud liked Aerith more than he did anyone not named Tifa. Can't we just leave it at that? It's more reflective of real world relationships anyway.

I wish we could, because that's exactly what I think is what the story both requires, and tells us. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not the one trying to make it more than that. Cleriths are, and to some extent SE is as well by playing into it. Which is what makes me roll my eyes. It's such cheap spectacle.

 

[ForceStealer]

While I certainly agree with your assessment with regard to things like Aerith's death, "leaning into" the LTD amounts to little more than expanded interactions between the characters, which is basically the best thing about the remake so far, so I can't agree there. And besides, though we the audience understand the implications of what they're doing, it's done with enough subtlety that the characters themselves wouldn't notice it. Certainly more subtle than Aerith mentioning the date and Tifa going "well EXCUUUUSE me, princess" or Aerith being like, "a girl...~~f r i e n d~~? uWu"

 

[LNK]

I wish we could, because that's exactly what I think is what the story both requires, and tells us. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not the one trying to make it more than that. Cleriths are, and to some extent SE is as well by playing into it. Which is what makes me roll my eyes. It's such cheap spectacle.

Some Cleriths can't be bothered with anything that goes against their ship. Same as some Clotis. Neither want's to admit that Cloud had feelings for both. If you take away Cloud leaning towards Aerith pre death, you'd have to change Cloud's characterization post death. No thanks

 

[KindOfBlue]

Normally I’d prefer that things aren’t spelled out so blatantly but at this point, I’d prefer that Cloud’s feelings are made so explicitly clear that there’s little to no room for shippers to misinterpret the story without obviously looking ignorant or dishonest.

Some shippers want Cloud’s feelings to be just vague enough that they can interpret his character as they see fit. What that sometimes amounts to is Cloud being painted as so stuck on one girl that his relationship with the other doesn’t matter.

Nojima: As a motif for them, Tifa is “the childhood friend who’s been with you since nursery school”, and Aerith is “the girl who transfers school mid-term and quickly leaves for another school.” Since she doesn’t have many scenes, you’ve got to make it so that the transfer student has a big impact. That was what I thought.

Fully commit to the bit, I say. Don’t be coy just to appease all shippers. All that does is minimize the impact of some of the most powerful moments of the story. For the full weight of Aerith’s death, we should really want her and Cloud to have the potential for a relationship, only for their time to be tragically cut short.

And whoever doesn’t like that outcome, too bad. The fact is, Aerith dies. That shouldn’t mean her short-lived time with Cloud was meaningless, but it also shouldn’t mean that Cloud is so eternally hung up on her that he can’t develop his relationship with Tifa either.

Just as with Aerith’s death, for the full weight of Cloud’s mind being healed, we need him and Tifa to establish their feelings for each other. And for Odin’s sake, give their post-FF7 relationship a proper definition so that we can put this tired topic to rest already.

 

[frosty]

Fully commit to the bit, I say. Don’t be coy just to appease all shippers. All that does is minimize the impact of some of the most powerful moments of the story. For the full weight of Aerith’s death, we should really want her and Cloud to have the potential for a relationship, only for their time to be tragically cut short.

I kind of....no longer trust SE to do this lol. I think the shock of OG was that Aerith died so suddenly, with no commentary, no resolution that made the player, as Cloud, felt like they were slapped across the face with her loss. This girl who was throwing herself at me (and I the player, could respond) is no longer here? My date! My healer! My Limit Break! My Princess Guard! All the time I spent on her! GONE. W.T.F.

Every remake death scene has been painfully drawn out so far in the name of exposition and added context and I'm not looking forward to her death. Even if they kill her fast, here's probably what's going to happen. I'll drink a shot, for each of the below - remind me in Feb you guys.

- The whole game has allusions to her death - in every "character building" opportunity with Aerith, she's gonna meta her fate and Brianna White is going tell people sappy things like "appreciate your loved ones before they're gone" in a breathy voice
- Only like, 10 flashfowards of her materia falling off the alter
- With the whispers and feathers around her iconic death scene, they're going to build up the WILL SHE OR WON'T SHE for a good, say, 10 minutes
- Even if Sephiroth comes to make quick work of the death, the conversation between Sephiroth and the party is going to be...long. He's gonna give a damn key note address, y'all
- I expect that as her body is put into the lake, there's going to be some kind of slow pan on everyone's faces, with an Aerith montage playing in sepia of ther time with the party ala Sonon/Melphie - cut to Loren Allred warbling the credits, with the same Aerith montage

And then she pops up in Zack's timeline / lifestream purgatory - SURPRISE Y'ALL!

 

[ForceStealer]

I kind of....no longer trust SE to do this lol. I think the shock of OG was that Aerith died so suddenly, with no commentary, no resolution that made the player, as Cloud, felt like they were slapped across the face with her loss. This girl who was throwing herself at me (and I the player, could respond) is no longer here? My date! My healer! My Limit Break! My Princess Guard! All the time I spent on her! GONE. W.T.F.

Every remake death scene has been painfully drawn out so far in the name of exposition and added context and I'm not looking forward to her death. Even if they kill her fast, here's probably what's going to happen. I'll drink a shot, for each of the below - remind me in Feb you guys.

- The whole game has allusions to her death - in every "character building" opportunity with Aerith, she's gonna meta her fate and Brianna White is going tell people sappy things like "appreciate your loved ones before they're gone" in a breathy voice
- Only like, 10 flashfowards of her materia falling off the alter
- With the whispers and feathers around her iconic death scene, they're going to build up the WILL SHE OR WON'T SHE for a good, say, 10 minutes
- Even if Sephiroth comes to make quick work of the death, the conversation between Sephiroth and the party is going to be...long. He's gonna give a damn key note address, y'all
- I expect that as her body is put into the lake, there's going to be some kind of slow pan on everyone's faces, with an Aerith montage playing in sepia of ther time with the party ala Sonon/Melphie - cut to Loren Allred warbling the credits, with the same Aerith montage

And then she pops up in Zack's timeline / lifestream purgatory - SURPRISE Y'ALL!

Can't wait

 

[null]

I mean they could pull off the saddest death scene since Old Yeller, but all roads lead to Advent Children. We already know everything's gonna be OK, because Aerith will literally tell Cloud in person that everything's OK. And absolve him, give him pep talks, revive him when he gets himself exploded, cure his incurable cooties, and participate in teambuilding exercises. Quite frankly there's no downside to her being dead, except she apparently can't go on Gold Saucer dates anymore, so Rebirth might as well lean into that.

 

[Stiggie]

Neither want's to admit that Cloud had feelings for both. If you take away Cloud leaning towards Aerith pre death, you'd have to change Cloud's characterization post death

...why? Clouds post death characterization is completely separate from his feelings for Aerith. Whether he was in love with her or just liked her as a person changes nothing about his post death characterization. Him being in love with her makes it slightly more shallow and clouds the issues a bit (pardon the pun) but for the most part the nature of his affection for Aerith changes very little about how it characterizes his actions following it.

Also, plenty of Clotis think that soldier Cloud had some romantic affection for Aerith, the real argument is about how said affection should be weighed and interpreted in regards to his feelings regarding Tifa, and his connection to Zack.

Normally I’d prefer that things aren’t spelled out so blatantly but at this point, I’d prefer that Cloud’s feelings are made so explicitly clear that there’s little to no room for shippers to misinterpret the story without obviously looking ignorant or dishonest.

Yes and no. I want them to be explicit about Clouds feelings, but I want them to be explicit about his feelings being vague.
What I mean is, I don't want a situation where Cloud is fully aware that he loves only Tifa, or only Aerith, or both, and where we the viewer don't know what the right answer is. But I do want a situation where Cloud himself doesn't know whether he liked Aerith and where it's made explicit to the player that THAT is the quandary Cloud is in. That would be congruent storytelling that fits with the concepts of his soldier persona, Aeriths death, and the importance of Zack. The idea that Cloud ONLY ever knew Aerith while he wasn't himself, and is not sure of what exactly she meant to him. And if that question has to be answered then I think the story works a lot better if the conclusion is that it doesn't matter if he had a crush on her, because ultimately that pales in comparison to the importance she had to him in general.

 

[Lex]

- The whole game has allusions to her death - in every "character building" opportunity with Aerith, she's gonna meta her fate and Brianna White is going tell people sappy things like "appreciate your loved ones before they're gone" in a breathy voice
- Only like, 10 flashfowards of her materia falling off the alter
- With the whispers and feathers around her iconic death scene, they're going to build up the WILL SHE OR WON'T SHE for a good, say, 10 minutes
- Even if Sephiroth comes to make quick work of the death, the conversation between Sephiroth and the party is going to be...long. He's gonna give a damn key note address, y'all
- I expect that as her body is put into the lake, there's going to be some kind of slow pan on everyone's faces, with an Aerith montage playing in sepia of ther time with the party ala Sonon/Melphie - cut to Loren Allred warbling the credits, with the same Aerith montage

Why do I feel like this is exactly what's coming

The best thing about fandom is happening across a post like this that just perfectly encapsulates your own slightly-bitter misgivings and gives them a voice. Kudos to you, good person. Reading this was darkly hilarious and a tonic for the soul. It's like doomsday prep - hopefully not necessary, but at least we're prepared!