looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
only if the fourth corner in the square refers to Jessie 
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
No, stop!
Youll end up invoking him!
You'll destroy us all!
Youll end up invoking him!
You'll destroy us all!
Don't you need to say the name three times in a mirror?
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
Incidentally, our old friend has at least two easily recognizable alt accounts. So for those of you on Twitter, don’t be surprised if you come across a totally-unrelated-I-swear-guys account spouting the same talking points.
Or just, y’know, avoid Twitter altogether.
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
Which imo is really dumb. In the end, there are two happy couples
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
Drop this here. But yeah, if I based on OG only (not Compilation), I always lean on Cloud loves both but he ended up with Tifa whom he has always loved, but I prefer Clerith (Aerith) since I'm sucker for tragedy. For some, this statement will be used as "see? there's no canon couple, it's all up to player's interpretation/affection". Remake still had that remnants of mechanic, but I doubt Rebirth would have it although we still get Gold Saucer in the future. It doesnt feel right with Zack searching for Aerith.
That's an interesting interview, hadn't seen that one yet, but I'd argue that this proves it's not up for interpretation, the key word in this article is "mechanically".
It seems to make a distinction between mechanics and storytelling. For one, it points out that there aren't branching paths, so there is one story here. It's just that mechanically they wanted to acknowledge players emotions, to give some sort of reward to THEIR love of Aerith. But it also specifies that had the path been "completely straightforward", Cloud would end up with Tifa for story related reasons.
In general I'd say this article perfectly describes a game with a single canon story, which is Cloud x Tifa, but where the mechanics allow you to do whatever you like. You can run around and do and think whatever you want, the mechanics allow for it, but that's separate from the actual story, these actions live on the edges of the story.
It's like wondering if Cloud really did spend his time inbreeding a bunch of chocobo and racing them, it's not really a part of the story, but the mechanics are there for the people who are into that sort of thing. So if you want to spend ages breeding chocobo the mechanics of the game allow and reward that, but when it comes to storytelling Cloud probably just did one or two races, and thats it.
I don't get this, the tragedy of Aeriths death doesn't come from Cloud having a crush on her, but from history essentially repeating itself and from Clouds feelings of inadequacy and fear of failure. Him failing as a "soldier first class", same as when he was just a grunt. I don't see what them having a crush on each other adds to that. If anything it makes it less tragic as Aerith as a love interest lessens her role as a surrogate mother. And I'd argue that the tragedy of Cloud losing his spiritual mother mirroring him losing his real mother, as well as Zack, is far more tragic.
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KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
Yeah, Zack and Aerith works far better for me as a tragic romance because they actually got to have a romantic relationship before the tragedy struck, but hey to each their own
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
this is why in compilation, since AC, I'm in the Zerith camp
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
Yeah that doesn't work at all, and it's 100% the reason this mess still exists in 2023. You gave the player the illusion of choice in a story predestined to contradict those choices. If the girl I like dies, and the MC moves on with the other girl he has a massive history with, and instead of giving me actual control over the scenario you spin it in a way that allows me to delude myself, you're not reflecting my feelings. You're just confusing and pissing me off.
Especially when the mechanic behind the fake choices is arcane as all hell. "You wanna get dolled up and come with me to kill Marlene's dad?" "Oh baby (+10)"
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
The affection mechanic values are nonsense, arbitrary, and defy common sense. It is known. Barret can like you more for things you say when he's literally miles away.
Regarding Aerith's plot arc and Zack, I think it's important to remember that she is entirely aware of the fact that he's dead, she just doesn't want to admit it. She's not getting over being jilted, she's getting over knowing that he's died coming back to her, AND the new cute guy she likes just happens to remind her of him in oh so many ways. That's why her arc is about moving on from him, and not falling out of love with him and why it's entirely plausible that they would rekindle that if they met in an afterlife of some sort.
Regarding Aerith's plot arc and Zack, I think it's important to remember that she is entirely aware of the fact that he's dead, she just doesn't want to admit it. She's not getting over being jilted, she's getting over knowing that he's died coming back to her, AND the new cute guy she likes just happens to remind her of him in oh so many ways. That's why her arc is about moving on from him, and not falling out of love with him and why it's entirely plausible that they would rekindle that if they met in an afterlife of some sort.
Biscuit
Rookie Adventurer
- AKA
- Bikit
Uh.......so Im having anxiety and this is super awkward because of the silence but I'll try ..but maybe Ill regret posting this as soon as Im done. I randomly just started speed reading this forum back when you guys were talking about tifa's panties (about like page 90). I have no idea what topics you had back at the beginning but I've read everything after page 90. So im just going to ask questions first before I expand it just to save myself from the shame of over explaining.
1) Have you guys taken the Yuki-Thoru (fruits basket) perspective on cloud and aerith's relationship (particularly on cloud's pov)? I've seen some already brought up the mother aspect.
2) how much does cloud remember his mom? Is it the same as unclear as tifa's? Because if so...im thinking what if the reason for his feelings wavering, isn't because he can't choose between the two but rather he can't decipher what is which for the girls. Like he knows he has strong feelings for tifa but can't understand, and perhaps he has this "familiar" feeling about aerith but can't understand (something that allows him to form a strong connection with her really fast that feels more than a friend, and yes it's like loosing his own mother a second time). Its easy for him to be confused/to waver because he is inexperienced and well....he isn't okay. But only after maturing and broadening his mind (gaining his memories back) can he be able to understand that perhaps the romantic feelings (he may or may not felt) was actually another form afterall. I just really see cloud acting like yuki during the initial days of his confusion (there was even a scene where he got all enchanted when he saw thoru all dressed up). And somehow well maybe its just me, claudia gives me aerith vibes. Maybe its shallow but aerith's scene where he teases cloud twice despite having a hunch what the answer is already ( "you're getting defensive" & the "who did you give the flower to?") And even cloud's defensive/ dismissive replies remind me so much of that one scene with him and his mother (who teased/baited him for an answer only for him to shut her off). I am aware that the "wavering" part is just part of the Mechanic for soldier cloud and the player but yeah...this is how I understand it regardless.
3) is there a possibility for aerith to actually meet true cloud (w/o the guilt like in AC)? Maybe im stupid but I just really feel that , that would kill LTD.... I mean isn't it the "what ifs" that could have kept that ship going? But nobody, not even aerith knows how she and true cloud will fare had she lived. Uh...I guess its just straightforward to beat the illusion with a literal reality (afterall this game is so into that)? Just to fill in the blanks and for aerith to finally find her answer she may or may not have about her feelings for cloud? An opportunity so cruelly stolen away from her from OG.
4) that being said..... Is it not possible that the "even if you think you do, its not real" is also something she's saying about herself? Her lifestream white line already happened here, Im thinking.... What exactly did cloud symbolized that she wanted to protect? ........ wasn't it zack? If anything else..... Freedom? Freedom from helping her move on from zack? But freedom is ....im not sure ...a thing for both aerith and zack? Im not making any sense am I forgive me. But essentially.... I think OG aerith is confused as well but she's here to find her own answer is what I think (that's her resolution). Since we don't know her new powers (if she has something new). Maybe its just me hoping that just like tifa who didn't wait for a hero (cloud) and started training, maybe aerith is here to move on from moving on (because she just cant, not yet, not like this) and started to make a path for herself and for Re!aerith (the complete opposite of her music's theme about waiting for zack. it feels like a better character development to me. About her 100% accepting herself as a cetra and the possibility it can bring just to do the impossible and be reunited with.....zack and perhaps to meet true cloud to find her answer. It might fail but she is willing to take that gamble). I know its human thing to accept and move on....but aerith isn't exactly human and I think this makes her badass (im so sick about her being mostly attributed to "the love interest", "that iconic death scene" then her cetra part comes pretty much last...it feels so underutilized and overshadowed).
In my perspective...both cloud and aerith have their feelings wavering in between two people due to unclear information. Cloud found his answer after lifestream but aerith is the only one who hasn't. I cannot say she likes true cloud for who he is because she never got to knew him (there's also other factors too). I remember a theory I read before that Johnny was an allusion to true cloud and whether that's true or not...I found it amusing how she just calls him "not the brightest tool in the shed" and cloud replying "thats someone you don't want to know" after she asked "who is that?". Maybe that's a reach maybe its not, him going the top simping for tifa, wanting to save her despite being so clumsy...isn't exactly far off from how true cloud acts. I don't think this is the guy aerith knows exactly..... She might like him or not but I would feel really bad for her if it turns out to be trully romantic, because this guy is impenetrable when it comes to tifa...and that would make her more confused about zack and cloud (plus does she have the time? She's about to die...I don't want SE to overcomplicate this, we still have the main plot). Also aerith and zack FINALLY reuniting after all THAT, is just like tifa and cloud reuniting after all THAT. Two happy pairs ending both with their respective first love. (It makes me sad some people don't ship ZA, I really like Akira x Tomoe in RK. I can't help but imagine the smile and tears she'll be having on her face once she sees zack again).
Im also very very sure cloud doesn't have real romantic feelings for aerith otherwise it will really make him look really REALLY bad after literally hooking up HAPPILY with tifa just weeks after her death (in front of him no less and also beating her up). Others point out that it's just "its the end of the world so why the hell not have sex with this girl who's into me" and I just can't imagine someone thinking that's a better characterization than accepting that cloud actually reciprocates tifa's feelings this whole time and it was never really technically questioned per say, He's just confused (also is that the kind of guy some people want for aerith ..really? Uh...).
I also want to note that I'm aware that remake won't go overboard too much as they will still keep major events. Im just thinking what if she lives a bit long enough to meet true cloud after tifa saves him (does aerith really need to die first, tifa get all stressed and insecure before cloud becomes vegetable?) . Because if they could finally meet.... it would really feel like a proper send off because finally their relationship doesn't feel so half-real and sad. Im also aware that zack and aerith may or may not meet but I really HIGHLY really doubt that. Anyway I said im just gonna ask and not over explain but I still did ....smh. I read through all this forum since page 90 and I was just itching to say something and so there you go. I don't have a ship per say, but I just think CT and ZA "together" gives the best storyline in my pov.
Anyway Im uselessly blabbering already. Im pretty sure you guys know this more than I do, so Im probably wrong! Im really new to FF7 but am fully aware of the compilation. All I know is that I'm used to love triangles and the different patterns it takes *in fiction* and how it can be resolved cleanly (that's not something to be proud of and I might be wrong but luckily I usually get it right). I know I look like Im overreacting but just like cloud I really REALLY suck at communicating and this is taking all the courage in me just to say these things!
1) Have you guys taken the Yuki-Thoru (fruits basket) perspective on cloud and aerith's relationship (particularly on cloud's pov)? I've seen some already brought up the mother aspect.
2) how much does cloud remember his mom? Is it the same as unclear as tifa's? Because if so...im thinking what if the reason for his feelings wavering, isn't because he can't choose between the two but rather he can't decipher what is which for the girls. Like he knows he has strong feelings for tifa but can't understand, and perhaps he has this "familiar" feeling about aerith but can't understand (something that allows him to form a strong connection with her really fast that feels more than a friend, and yes it's like loosing his own mother a second time). Its easy for him to be confused/to waver because he is inexperienced and well....he isn't okay. But only after maturing and broadening his mind (gaining his memories back) can he be able to understand that perhaps the romantic feelings (he may or may not felt) was actually another form afterall. I just really see cloud acting like yuki during the initial days of his confusion (there was even a scene where he got all enchanted when he saw thoru all dressed up). And somehow well maybe its just me, claudia gives me aerith vibes. Maybe its shallow but aerith's scene where he teases cloud twice despite having a hunch what the answer is already ( "you're getting defensive" & the "who did you give the flower to?") And even cloud's defensive/ dismissive replies remind me so much of that one scene with him and his mother (who teased/baited him for an answer only for him to shut her off). I am aware that the "wavering" part is just part of the Mechanic for soldier cloud and the player but yeah...this is how I understand it regardless.
3) is there a possibility for aerith to actually meet true cloud (w/o the guilt like in AC)? Maybe im stupid but I just really feel that , that would kill LTD.... I mean isn't it the "what ifs" that could have kept that ship going? But nobody, not even aerith knows how she and true cloud will fare had she lived. Uh...I guess its just straightforward to beat the illusion with a literal reality (afterall this game is so into that)? Just to fill in the blanks and for aerith to finally find her answer she may or may not have about her feelings for cloud? An opportunity so cruelly stolen away from her from OG.
4) that being said..... Is it not possible that the "even if you think you do, its not real" is also something she's saying about herself? Her lifestream white line already happened here, Im thinking.... What exactly did cloud symbolized that she wanted to protect? ........ wasn't it zack? If anything else..... Freedom? Freedom from helping her move on from zack? But freedom is ....im not sure ...a thing for both aerith and zack? Im not making any sense am I forgive me. But essentially.... I think OG aerith is confused as well but she's here to find her own answer is what I think (that's her resolution). Since we don't know her new powers (if she has something new). Maybe its just me hoping that just like tifa who didn't wait for a hero (cloud) and started training, maybe aerith is here to move on from moving on (because she just cant, not yet, not like this) and started to make a path for herself and for Re!aerith (the complete opposite of her music's theme about waiting for zack. it feels like a better character development to me. About her 100% accepting herself as a cetra and the possibility it can bring just to do the impossible and be reunited with.....zack and perhaps to meet true cloud to find her answer. It might fail but she is willing to take that gamble). I know its human thing to accept and move on....but aerith isn't exactly human and I think this makes her badass (im so sick about her being mostly attributed to "the love interest", "that iconic death scene" then her cetra part comes pretty much last...it feels so underutilized and overshadowed).
In my perspective...both cloud and aerith have their feelings wavering in between two people due to unclear information. Cloud found his answer after lifestream but aerith is the only one who hasn't. I cannot say she likes true cloud for who he is because she never got to knew him (there's also other factors too). I remember a theory I read before that Johnny was an allusion to true cloud and whether that's true or not...I found it amusing how she just calls him "not the brightest tool in the shed" and cloud replying "thats someone you don't want to know" after she asked "who is that?". Maybe that's a reach maybe its not, him going the top simping for tifa, wanting to save her despite being so clumsy...isn't exactly far off from how true cloud acts. I don't think this is the guy aerith knows exactly..... She might like him or not but I would feel really bad for her if it turns out to be trully romantic, because this guy is impenetrable when it comes to tifa...and that would make her more confused about zack and cloud (plus does she have the time? She's about to die...I don't want SE to overcomplicate this, we still have the main plot). Also aerith and zack FINALLY reuniting after all THAT, is just like tifa and cloud reuniting after all THAT. Two happy pairs ending both with their respective first love. (It makes me sad some people don't ship ZA, I really like Akira x Tomoe in RK. I can't help but imagine the smile and tears she'll be having on her face once she sees zack again).
Im also very very sure cloud doesn't have real romantic feelings for aerith otherwise it will really make him look really REALLY bad after literally hooking up HAPPILY with tifa just weeks after her death (in front of him no less and also beating her up). Others point out that it's just "its the end of the world so why the hell not have sex with this girl who's into me" and I just can't imagine someone thinking that's a better characterization than accepting that cloud actually reciprocates tifa's feelings this whole time and it was never really technically questioned per say, He's just confused (also is that the kind of guy some people want for aerith ..really? Uh...).
I also want to note that I'm aware that remake won't go overboard too much as they will still keep major events. Im just thinking what if she lives a bit long enough to meet true cloud after tifa saves him (does aerith really need to die first, tifa get all stressed and insecure before cloud becomes vegetable?) . Because if they could finally meet.... it would really feel like a proper send off because finally their relationship doesn't feel so half-real and sad. Im also aware that zack and aerith may or may not meet but I really HIGHLY really doubt that. Anyway I said im just gonna ask and not over explain but I still did ....smh. I read through all this forum since page 90 and I was just itching to say something and so there you go. I don't have a ship per say, but I just think CT and ZA "together" gives the best storyline in my pov.
Anyway Im uselessly blabbering already. Im pretty sure you guys know this more than I do, so Im probably wrong! Im really new to FF7 but am fully aware of the compilation. All I know is that I'm used to love triangles and the different patterns it takes *in fiction* and how it can be resolved cleanly (that's not something to be proud of and I might be wrong but luckily I usually get it right). I know I look like Im overreacting but just like cloud I really REALLY suck at communicating and this is taking all the courage in me just to say these things!
Leafonthebreeze
Any/All
- AKA
- Leaf
No worries about being nervous, you made a pretty coherent argument, and reading through this entire thread takes dedication! I'd never considered Aerith as mother figure to Cloud before, but I can see where you're coming from with it. I like your point about Aerith needing her own character points that aren't just love interest or death too.
I don't know if I personally feel the need for her to meet the "real" Cloud (and Johnny being an exaggerated version of him is a funny thought but I'd have to look more into that I think!) But I can see what you mean about it ending her confusion. Thanks for the post!
I don't know if I personally feel the need for her to meet the "real" Cloud (and Johnny being an exaggerated version of him is a funny thought but I'd have to look more into that I think!) But I can see what you mean about it ending her confusion. Thanks for the post!
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
I got 13 notifications of like from this thread only, wow!
Welcome, @alpacasweaty I need time to process and reply your post
Welcome, @alpacasweaty I need time to process and reply your post
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Don't worry. First time posting is always awkward but it gets easier
1) I have never seen or read Fruits Basket but I really like your take on Cloud/Aerith. Personally, I didn't really get the vibe that Cloud is even aware of Aerith as the opposite sex in Remake -- except for that one optional dress scene in which he didn't even recognise it was her lol. I think his feelings for her were something more spiritual but I can't make a detailed argument for this yet.
As for Cloud's mom, I think he remembers her (the Nibelheim/Sephiroth flashback at the beginning of Remake and the dream at Aerith's house) and then probably remembers her better once he, er, unmuddles his head with Tifa? He was something like fifteen/sixteen when Nibelheim happened so he'd have more concrete memories than Tifa at any rate.
3) Oh no, it's not the "what ifs" that keep Clerith going. It's denial, literary incomprehension and spite lol. But (mean) jokes aside, I would love it if True Cloud and Aerith met each other, and for Zack to meet the gang! I don't even care lol. I just want them all to be friends. *fingers crossed*
4) I think Aerith's resolution scene in Remake is actually multilayered. I think she's also saying it to the player instead of strictly to Cloud. I mean, if she was saying it strictly to Cloud she'd come off as insanely arrogant lol. She's spent, what, less than a day with him and he spent most of that time annoyed or focusing on another girl, and then out of the blue she's all, "don't fall in love with me~". Like, c'mon.
In a way, I guess Aerith's character arc is also about letting go of her denials; her denial of her cetra heritage and her denial of Zack's death. It kind of started already when she met Zack and the two of them helped each other to sort of embrace their "non-normalness". (As an aside, I really want a Zerith reunion in the Remake trilogy.)
The bottom line is that Final Fantasy VII is neither an american sitcom nor a bishōjo game. We have games that allow the player to choose their own love interest and Final Fantasy VII really isn't it. Regardless of player choices, Cloud will always start on his journey because of Tifa, find his true self because of Tifa, and express mutual feelings under the Highwind. (And then goes on to live with her and raise kids. Which is like universal in shonen action time skips.)
I think the Clerith interpretation of that scene is that the Aerith in the garden is a dead Aerith. She would have spent 2? weeks with the party by then, Cloud has already fallen in love with her.
Her ability to transcend space time via the lifestream, allows her to go back in time to say her goodbyes to present Cloud and warn him not to love her cos future her knows he has already fallen for her and doesn't want him to feel bad.
Hence her "I'm so glad to have met you cherish every moment blabla" speech.
I'm not saying that's the right interpretation, just the most common one. This theory is also then commonly paired with Cloud will then also travel space time to destroy Sephiroth to bring Aerith back to life, and they will marry and live happily ever after
Ryeleigh
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Rye
Oh, I know. I was just thinking of it more from the Current Cloud's point of view xD I mean, my reaction to that scene was: "ooookay" *slowly backs away*. Imagine what Cloud must've felt to be told that out of the blue lol. And honestly, the Clerith interpretation kind of assumes that 1) Garden Aerith is in love with Cloud and 2) Cloud of future games will also fall for her. Possible? Sure, I guess. But still just an assumption at this stage. And we know what people say about ass-u-me.
And considering how blatant they made Cloti in the first part and whatever shenanigans is going on with Zack, I just... really can't imagine FFVIIR turning into some relationship drama square. It's a total mental block for me lol.
Lol, kind of sounds like circular logic at its finest. I'm not dismissing the possibility but seriously, I think we all just need to wait until the next games to see what the devs meant by that scene. Because, as I said, I think it's more multilayered than a "Clerith Canonz!"
XDI'm not saying that's the right interpretation, just the most common one. This theory is also then commonly paired with Cloud will then also travel space time to destroy Sephiroth to bring Aerith back to life, and they will marry and live happily ever after
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
The read I get off of Aerith in her scene is that she's making jokes and putting on a cheery face to distract from a deeper hurt. Distract Cloud a little bit, but distract herself most of all.
Biscuit
Rookie Adventurer
- AKA
- Bikit
Thank you very much for the encouragement (It’s just social anxiety). Also sorry, I appeared to be cringy (and probably still will be…smh) but I’ll try to calm down and be less defensive. I don’t know about dedication haha, but its 100% anxiety doing the work.Don't worry. First time posting is always awkward but it gets easier
Haha, it depends on what kind of writer nojima is. But considering the expansion they made for him in this game, I find it hilarious if it’s a true Easter egg.
Granted he remembers his mom more, but I find it strange how he handles this. As far as I know, cloud has yet to properly grieve for his mom. She’s the only one he had growing up (tifa too, but…). He barely sent postcards and he was in an avoidant mood (due to shame) during the last time they’ve spoken. To me this inspires guilt, as he could have felt like he had taken her for granted (obv Claudia would never blame him). Also, he should have greatly empathize with tifa’s words (he experienced the same thing) and yet soldier cloud prioritizes her comfort instead of get sad with her. Maybe true cloud was sad but the way this scene has been described, it’s as though he was swept by his youthful romantic feelings instead and forgot that. Hence why, Nojima says “they’re still young” (hormones + he’s pinning on her). I was surprised to find that initially this wasn’t thought of as romantic, that scene was textbook (what I call) “amnesia hug”. Also, it’s quite bold of SE, considering the LTD. For characters (cloud) and scenes like this, it’s more common that it takes time before the act. Yet they skipped right through the climax of it haha. In any case, Tifa was the one who did not think of romance. Crying her heart out while Cloud was taking advantage of the moment (priorities). But yeah, it feels as though without ToTP, Claudia feels like a tool to add confusion w/ her line. That’s what I think. I don’t assert my idea as a fact, rather I just think it’s a good opportunity to tie her into his arc more. In fact despite caring, cloud does take aerith for granted sometimes.
There’s a faction like this in every debate. However, severe Cleriths are easier to ignore. Ones who don’t ship and yet act the same way as you’ve described, confuses me more. By “what ifs” I meant, if cloud uncharacteristically blurts out “Hey aerith, you’re like a ___” then every single CA interaction (cloud’s pov) gets colored with context. Currently it’s empty, so it’s easier to fill in with whatever that’s working or not (Like I’m doing).
Actually, I don’t think aerith’s confused here at all (I only tried to entertain it and what could happen). Whatever happened with that line, it happened off cam to me. I see her confident and decisive albeit forlorn. Perhaps I’m projecting but if you’ll allow to humor me (and forgive this sappy narration). I think Masayoshi Yamazaki’s One More Time, One More Chance (5 cen per second) encompass what I think of ZA. For years, aerith waited for zack with no mere effort on her part. During the years before his passing, she really could have thought he went with some other girl or wasn’t true to her at all. In defense (in OG), she talked like The Fox and the Grapes to ease her pain of not knowing what’s real and to deny his death (or later on to force herself to move on through soldier cloud). I’m not sure if she had a memento of his image, but the only things she has of him are objects and fond memories. There’s a chance she’s starting to forget them and feels helpless about it (that’s why even though cloud is so far from zack, she still sees it). During the time of his passing, she’s at the peak of her loneliness (loveless st). She’s yearning for hope and still waiting, then she meets cloud. Is it a cruel/blessing turn of events? As he indirectly reminded her again of what was important to her. Perhaps she fell for Soldier cloud (not true cloud), but eventually realizes it was with his false image all along (the ver half the man zack was in her memory). A love that literally never was, hence star-crossed lovers (Lovers whose relationship is doomed to fail/ end in tragedy. Meanwhile the stars motif with CT acts as a way to confuse you but aren’t truly doomed to fail. I swear only masochists would want that label for their ship). Just like cloud, aerith too cannot heal their pain through embracing illusions. They have to face reality or they can’t escape the loop of this mere dream that engulfs them on what truly matters. Specifically what Re!aerith is doing, she’s being proactive instead.
One more thing, friendship. I assume she didn’t have many/any? (Kid aerith crying scene). Yamazaki (cloud’s mo cap actor) says it better than I, but I really felt for aerith after that “we found you” line from tifa. There’s an emphasis on this friendship. Whatever Re!aerith is doing? She’s already grounded unlike before. Instead of falling in love with someone who reminds her of her ex. She instead made more friends. Equally seeking them as she fills the void and loneliness. That’s why the idea that aerith chooses between zack and cloud while thinking of tifa is just unnecessary. But if they did? How long will they do that? Part 2 till part 3? Then Z & A will die anyway? What’s the point? However I think it’s important for the game to address that lifestream white line otherwise it would look like a retcon (just one line, one line to confuse it all). That wasn’t even built up in OG. We can make up a guess like I did, but still, better them than us.
You worded this better haha, but I’m a bit dishearten it’s not the common guess of her trajectory? I digress, imagine just finishing CC-reunion. What kind of psychopath would choose to bring zack back only to make him suffer (not meet her, rejected, etc)…but I can see him still dying. That’s just tragedy for the sake of tragedy, plus isn’t zack Nojima’s favorite character? (I’m not sure lol I just heard it).
Of course not, because if it is then as a huge consumer of visual novels etc. FF7 really sucks. It’s missing everything that sells this genre. I hope that’s not their goal is it? It’s a cool technique to aid showing the conflict but… as simple “it’s to show illusion of choice” would have helped greatly but devs rather not. Unless of course this isn’t the case at all???
I know I’m superrrr late, but I’ll take a bit of a gander. “Even if you think you do, it’s not real/imagination” can be a throwaway line that’s done for the drama/tension. Then we’d be heading out with that theory. Though if real, I have to say I think SE’s not stopping at just killing the LTD only .....I'm not saying that's the right interpretation, just the most common one. This theory is also then commonly paired with Cloud will then also travel space time to destroy Sephiroth to bring Aerith back to life, and they will marry and live happily ever after
The important difference between True cloud and Soldier cloud
The main difference is the existence of agency. True cloud is somebody out of therapy. To further explain, I’ll be taking some out of otp-oasis-heavenxearth’s comment on DutchDread’s video. Basically if a certain somebody meets the points that fulfills the needs of the soldier cloud persona (also the player), then he will favor said girl. Anybody who hypes up his ego as a hero, seen as cool, needed, dependent upon on, etc. Everything that true cloud desired he was or think Tifa would want. So it’s no wonder why soldier cloud could have fallen for aerith in OG because she was handling all the points to him. But in remake, re!aerith is self-aware. She proceeds to push down his ego, questioning his abilities, even her flirting (“my hero”etc) sounds sarcastic. I think Subaru (vtuber) and Yamazaki actually points out how harsh she is lol. Like a classmate or an older sister pulling no punches. It’s reminiscent of her CC personality but harsher yet playful. Aerith also paints tifa as the damsel in distress here to soldier cloud (the points). As highlighted in Don Corneo arc. That being said, he too could fall for Jessie if given the chance. I think it’s a good choice to include her. Her personality reminds of OG aerith and it helps see the nuance in the changes. But here comes the tricky part (maybe). Tifa too, even if she’s prioritized by soldier cloud, it also doesn’t matter. Not as much as true cloud’s favor (the one whose opinion only matters lol). Going by the trailer, it seems that he’s doubting her (there’s some kind of shift) and so no matter who he favors at one point, it can easily be manipulated. Much like how the player can decide if they feel like going for aerith or tifa instead (or none). Soldier cloud/ Player can change it anytime. Now, while the impact of SC-T’s interaction is arguable. Frankly my dear, the devs don’t give a damn. From the quality & quantity of their interactions, The numerous “romantic” CT scenes you still get even if you miss the corkscrew tunnel/ alone at last, the uniqueness of CT’s interactions compared to CA and CJ, the camera framings, Crescent moon charm’s description that both C & T shares a piece of the pair of and she wears it with her mature dress (Claudia’s line), revised B&W top for both tifa and kid cloud (CT also had similar designs in AC), Midgar Blues, the promotions, the fact that soldier cloud’s persona was curated to be accepted by tifa (a hero), and most vital, true cloud appearing when he’s with tifa (not sure if it’s only in her resolution). I do find it fascinating how he’s already flirting with her (more obv in the Jp ver). Maybe something happened off cam or that’s just soldier cloud’s default setting, favoring tifa first. So even if it can be argued, SE themselves are doing this to hype up for the real deal anyway (TC-T). I don’t think they’ve come this far, do all the work, only to take it away.
Aeirith’s resolution scene
Again, I got the idea from otp-oasis-heavenxearth and Silver-wield. They had other things covered about the HW etc. so I ought to reference them. Other than that, I want to give a different perspective. https://www.tumblr.com/silver-wield...t-wanted-to-say-that-i-love-your?source=share
There are two speakers here. SE for the viewer, while Aerith is to Soldier Cloud. I’d like to think, she doesn’t know we exist lol. What is this, Doki Doki lit club? SE’s just using their artistic license/ Direction because they can. Just like how they used the illusion of choice to present the nature of conflict. SE’s the one presenting the HW ref. The characters don’t know HW, but we do. Aerith (OG/Re!Aerith) is aware of his affliction. Re!Aerith specifically, knew 100% about his feelings by the time she saw that flower at Tifa’s bar (though she had a hunch). It’s not Marlene because during the flower selling scene, cloud immediately says he’ll buy it once she told him that his girlfriend will be happy (TY, I learned that because of this forum). Also Re!Aerith unlike OG has a clearer mind here, she isn’t slow on the uptake (you know, like claudia’s “goodness goodness” after realizing that cloud has a crush on tifa. Inspiring him to become Soldier, okay I’ll stop lol). If aerith does know HW…. how? If it’s OG aerith, does she have the ability to see what happens to the cast after she dies? If so, she watched it alongside Barret and Cid. We also have to accept that she knew true cloud. Thinking that he’s her lover would make sense if she stalked cloud long enough. She didn’t even spoke of tifa, the girl who called aerith more than a friend. Tbh when does the lifestream white line happen? Is it before or after meeting zack again in the lifestream? Perhaps that’s the off cam thing I spoke of before. Maybe she got a wakeup call. If it’s Re!Aerith, then I have no clue. Such a detail seem invasive and also sepiroth unrelated. To me it’s a no but….I will go back to this later.
Before I start, it’s important to place yourself first in someone who prioritized Aerith in the whole game. SE’s addressing these players the most. For what you get reflects the player’s approach when they played the game (with a purpose in mind). PS. If I sound like an asshole on SE’s side, I just felt like what they did here sounded like they’re frustrated (or that’s me) and that influenced my interpretation. Also, I used to write scripts, so if some parts are over interpreted, then apologies. It’s a force of habit.
“Whatever you do, you can’t fall in love with me” - It’s peculiar that instead of fixing and adding parts that would deliver this naturally/ understandably as they fought about this line. They’d rather settled with "they may think she’s arrogant unless they know the story” instead. As insane-hobbit has said, none before and after happened to address this scene. Which brings me to think that the devs meant not only her death but also the condition of cloud. The fact that he literally cannot fall for her because it’s not the real him. If true, they sure are sneaky with their words lol. I hate it. Also, if it was meant to be romantic then it will look romantic, SE has proven that over the years with their other games but this scene was just sad and serious.
Player: I know you love aerith the most, but not only are you not cloud (so don’t self-insert), we will also eventually kill her. So to save yourself from having false hopes of you/cloud ending up with her, don’t. For the rest of the audience, we know you can’t help but love her even if you know she’s about to die. We understand.
Cloud: I’ll group both her revelations as what nojima referred to as the same function as her golden saucer line. Which is to hint at his character conflict and Soldier cloud is completely oblivious of what she’s talking about.
“Do I get a say on this? / That’s one-sided”
Player: If you’ll allow me to use the same trick with aerith (looking at the player), then this could be the player’s back and they’re protesting to aerith. That, or/and it could be the mirror image of the 3rd photo. This could also be the back view of the mirror image of the HW ref with tifa in her resolution (perhaps a hint at the possible conflict CT might have that challenges their bond…It’s just my theory lol. That pars with her red dress and bartender scene etc.).
“It’s almost morning. Time to go”
Player: SE literally using true cloud’s own words (his say) as a reply to this player’s protest. Cheekier with the English ver while subtle brushing off yet still reminding in the jp ver. But the overall answer was “none/ignored” because the points system is a ruse.
“If that’s what you want, thank you/ it’s frustrating/shameful, but I’m happy”
Player: So even after all the hints we’ve given, the shots, the lines (also the word “embrace”), and the whole franchise rather. You still won’t accept defeat. Well then, we’re happy that we’ve managed to make aerith this effective that you’d love her this much. Thank you.
Cloud: There’s a part of her that knows soldier cloud couldn’t understand her (despite wanting to help), but can’t help but be happy he missed it and that he hasn’t change from what she remembered. If this is present time aerith, then just cut the “he hasn’t change...remembered”
OG aerith context- Nostalgia, She met soldier cloud again (but it’s not a real reunion/ no flowers under her feet because soldier cloud isn’t real and she isn’t there). Last time, she communicated with true cloud instead in AC. She’s here to help cloud and say what she couldn’t before.
Re!Aerith context- Not sure if this was after or before she goes off on her own. But this message could be brought by the cracks she’s seen in him (beating her up etc) and wants to help and at the same time say her peace (I wish she could have thanked tifa as well etc).
If this is OG aerith, then she’s just a tragic character. If it’s Re!aerith then she’s even more tragic. By the vibe, it seems that she never met true cloud and perhaps zack. She also wasn’t able to say her farewells to everybody only to cloud here (…tifa). Her life gets taken away by force once again instead of her own way. We won’t be addressing the lifestream white line (not sure if Re!aerith will still say that). With OG aerith, there’s still a chance for re!aerith’s life to be prolonged.
IF this Re!aerith is wholly with complete Meta knowledge of everything about FF7
Then Re!aerith must be in great pain than I thought she was. I don’t know if she got time for romance when the world is hanging by a thread. Like a god, I can totally see why Marlene would react to her that way lol. I thought if they were separated then OG aerith is influencing/guiding Re!aerith here. Causing her to have Meta knowledge w/o her knowing. Are there theories besides her being a Cetra that causes her to have so? It seems so convenient. Certainly she knows of HW or AC. Then everything I’ve placed in SE’s message to the player is a double entendre with Re!Aerith (just adjust it). Hmm, I don’t know if I like the idea that it’s because of Re!aerith that the LTD is dying, that inspires “tifa only won because aerith let her so” because she probably has feelings for soldier cloud due to that lifestream white line (or she doesn’t anymore? I don’t know…). I have to wonder how "much" she saw the HW scene. No wonder she’s sad, not only does she know she’ll die but also got Meta knowledge rejected if she still likes him. Anyway, with Re!aerith being adamant with CT, I can only think of two that will continue CA as “romantic”: 1. its connected to the conflict I theorized for myself lol w/or w/o Re!aerith's choice (sepiroth related) or 2. They’ll prolong it to not lose audiences for part 3. Tbh this is probably stupid (related to 1.) but 7 seconds sounds like a countdown to choose who to save. Moving on, then her “If that’s what … but I’m happy” context is well depending on the timing. If it’s present time of her kidnapping, then she is indeed only trying to make herself happy despite the pain. Though, again didn’t say her farewells to tifa in her dreams. If she’s dead, then it’s same with Re!aerith’s great tragedy. Now, if there’s a possible way to save her from death after dying/not (time travel /alternate universe logic). I won't discount the possibility, but this is big thing to pull off only for her to die again? Whether she gets saved by zack or cloud, it will be redundant and cruel. If this is in the present time, then there's still hope that she can do more things but tbh OG aerith just seems cleaner to me. I hope this all made sense, I wanted to look at all the angles.
Interpretation of cloud’s perspective
Cloud doesn’t know he’s talking to the real one but since he’s in a dream, he allows himself to be less tsundere. Suddenly she goes saying all this death flag shit then BAM! “Whatever you…love with me”. In my pov, Cloud is at the height of his worry (she just got kidnapped lol) gets dishearten and offended so he looks away. But not because: 1. He got caught having feelings or 2. Appalled by her arrogance (lol, but I would). Rather, not of what she specifically said but because she probably went teasing him again! Seriously, Even in a dream aerith infuriates him while he’s worried sick here Or during her long pause, he was anticipating she’ll say something awful but it was just this. He’s happy it wasn’t serious but it sure was annoying. But not for long, because as soon as she touches his checks and continue on, a cold water is splashed at cloud. This isn’t normal cloud who knows he’s in a dream suddenly forgets that he is due to sincere worry. So he catches her hands to know what’s going on, but fails. He realizes yeah, it’s only a dream, but still it worries him so. Then says “Do I get…one-sided” perhaps because she’s talking on her own about a topic he doesn’t understand is coming from and that she’s speaking for him. Not because he’s protesting but because he literally has got no clue and wants to say his side of the story or ask wth is going on (going by what nojima said is like her golden saucer line, no clue at all). He only gets ignored. Classic. So with limited understanding he ends up just brushing it off as a bad dream or wtvr. It’s pointless to overthink about a dream and instead says “I’ll come to save you”. Whether she’s doing this weird thing to push him away (to save him?) or a bad premonition, Soldier cloud’s main code is still to protect (he also cares). So he won’t back down. Then Aerith says her line with a bittersweet smile. Cloud’s “not really” is a classic tsundere move. Unlike in a dream, this is reality, he doesn’t allow himself to talk freely. But is happy that it was indeed just a dream. However considering the new events unfolding, he can’t just brush it off. Like someone said here, cloud’s “he’s tough” is him telling aerith that she might be better of far away from danger. Lol aerith sounded like “who you calling a weakling! Huh?”
HW is also referenced with tifa’s (it’s mirrored because they haven’t truly reunited yet). I’ve seen somewhere that this scene has been built up since Alone at last. Tifa’s rug with a reunion flower design and his false expectation. I think his “hmm”, was a result of that yearning. He was truly disappointed then, so I can get why he would get lost in a trance (in the same way he did before he got awakened by tifa’s “so”). While the flower aren’t just a rug, it’s the real one and they truly reunite for a short while. If I have to guess based from the pattern, I believe in the real HW, cloud will be the one to hug tifa instead. Because that’s his silent reply right? But since he’s shy, he hugs tifa on her back (his “…” in OG could be him short-circuiting or pondering how to proceed). I could go on but I’ll stop, however I do wish for Cloti fans to get at least 26+ years’ worth the wait moment (Shinran….). The best we can get on screen is probably a visible kiss then fade to black. I’m actually more excited for the ost, I loved what they did in her resolution. Do you think they’ll pre-render this scene so it won’t be edited? If you know what I mean.
I think SE is sacrificing the LTD for a coherent story (hopefully). Some of the probable factors that caused this divided understanding of OG are: 1. People played once and called it a day, 2. played every single thing but didn't care to connect the dots, 3. in denial etc., and 4.The subtlety or way of writing/directing wasn’t effective on delivering the story clearly. But they did make solutions: 1. Divided into parts, so the points reset. Perhaps to have control w/ the story or way of play if you choose someone else, 2. The only thing you can get with the points are the resolutions. Yet, seemingly meaningless because it’s all canon, 3. Unlike the limitations in OG, they’ve gone hell on earth to give all the clues for CT. Honestly I can feel they're shouting lol, 4. Equally made Aerith and Tifa important. Also their expansion in ToTP (like retconned Ranka-Sheryl in Macross Frontier), 5. Zack is back. But, the resolution you get isn’t exactly pointless. Like Nomura says, it reflects the player's choice. A director's artistic choice. Personally, I usually don’t bother with what's canon or not, because everything is there for a reason/intention. It’s all connected to the story they want to tell you, like a murder mystery. These are clues. Though I said I’m not, yet I’m going to assert that tifa is the canon choice every time you’re tasked to decide. If you got Barret, his would remind "Player, you should have known cloud’s jealous with anything about tifa, therefore he will prioritize her". Aerith’s “Player, you should have known about the HW in OG, same way you got her death flag here. If you understood what happened with HW then he will prioritize her". Barret’s Remake while Aerith's OG. With Tifa's it’s her’s alone. Bringing up Aerith isn't anti, but pro CT. It’s related to his goal to impress her and got caught he wasn’t suave. Btw the “dead and buried” as pro CA is too psychotic, wtf??? We need to keep the context always, tifa’s despair has nothing to do with romance. BUT if it were, she gets hugged by true cloud while being surrounded by the same flowerS. Like "Not true, I'm still here Tifa".…………...I’d rather we stay with it not being related to romance.
Sorry for the late reply, life happens. I still want to post my take on CA’s nature (and other things) because while I did felt it to be “spiritual” (because FB’s thoru is like that tbh) I didn’t entertain it, but I did find something (hope it makes sense and doesn’t offend). So thank you for mentioning that! hmm If I sound over-confident or arrogant, that’s not the case at all. I’m just describing what I’m seeing and it’s been a long time since I’ve done analysis on my own accord (it’s usually forced on me haha). Still everything is a possibility because despite asserting, I’m not SE nor Nojima. But I hope I didn’t sound so absurd and correct me if I’m wrong because this franchise is so huge! Actually I’d like to ask if this topic is already done? Because I would really hate to be a noise. This is my first time contributing to forums like this so I’m a bit slow on the uptake haha. Any advice would be kindly appreciated. Thank you!
Biscuit
Rookie Adventurer
- AKA
- Bikit
Cloud character analysis (my take on CA)
The last one before I go. I did say that I don’t know Nojima as a writer but this guy sure has a thing for patterns and repetition. Also, I’m only going to look at the characters as their function/ role to cloud’s story. So I wouldn’t go 1:1, just the abstract of it as much as possible. I think there are others who has dived through this more than I and they were awesome. Some I would imply as a plot device and if that offends anyone, that’s not my intention (promise!). Okay, so the theme I used is Self-acceptance and it’s aided by mental health subjects (modified for creative writing). And I got the idea from this incredible analysis by Klemira, Curious Amber’s video essay on Cloud Strife, a bit from L.C.’s take on the LTD, and some info from Dr Mike Llyod (DID specialist).
True Cloud is our main character w/ a simple pattern of his conflict. Consists a series of hiding/ running away from his desires due to a failure he did once. Once bitten, twice as shy. What’s Fascinating to me is that cloud, regardless of his good looks, his natural strength, his kindness, (later on, the feats he actually did as a real hero in CC and OG) etc. is plagued by low self-esteem issues (understandable, for he is young). To me Tifa symbolizes Happiness in Cloud’s internal plot. Through her there is self-acceptance, relations/ bonds/support (friends etc). Where strong relationships with friends, lover, and family was crucial not only for happiness but for health and even resiliency (Harvard Longitudinal study of Adult Development). Something that Cloud severely lacked growing up, to some degree his fault too. In a way, tifa acts as his goal to “fix” his conflicts. If tifa accepts him or impresses her, then maybe things will go his way. What’s ironic is that Happiness was only just one step away but he’s the one that keeps denying himself of that: Promise- A girl who never accepted invites goes to him while he goes away for her, CC- She excitedly and desperately searched for him yet he hides with a helmet not to disappoint her, OG- She’s the one who found him + still takes care of him and he hides himself in the form of Soldier Cloud to gain her favor, AC- She wants to be a family with him but he goes away to fix his shit so he could feel like he can deserve/protect what they have now. There’s a pattern of needing to prove something first in himself before he thinks he can deserve it. Reminds me of how he rejects his mother about needing someone who takes care of him. This man has an unhealthy relationship with his pride and sense of self. What Cloud needs in his resolution is the ability to accept himself in order to believe that he is allowed (not permitted) to deserve happiness. Hence why I think “A memory or us” signifies choosing between being stuck with his memories of failures (that causes him fear) vs a life with the opportunity of happiness with everyone (not just tifa). Aka the things he cherishes! Once cloud gains this, then there is no room for darkness (Sepiroth) to tempt him back on running/hiding away from what matters. That his strength lies in knowing that he can rely on others and that most of all, that he believes in himself no matter how imperfect.
Soldier Cloud is the biggest manifestation of true cloud’s escapism from rejection. Through completely denying himself of what makes him who he is, then perhaps he will be accepted. In a way, SC acts like an alter to a DID patient. It exists to protect him from his other traumas and to be his representative to do what he couldn’t do as TC. Like the player taking the wheel of his fate, he leaves it up to you to fulfill his story that he doesn’t know how to finish. An alter can either be good or bad for the host, but ultimately TC isn’t ready and neither is tifa. This is where aerith enters the field. Before that, I find it brutal but this has nothing to do with her character/ my real opinion of her, just her function in this narrative. Okay, when dealing with an alter, you either work with it or you don’t. What works best depends on the case. What does end up happening first is, SC and OG aerith in a continuous cycle of back and forth acts of reenacting a fantasy. Very fitting for the dark side of Chesed (Kabbalah), which is over giving. He is able to be a hero/soldier while aerith is able to redo her memories. Not for long, because SC is unstable and dangerous at times. This alter is turning into a complete disorder. Aerith wants to help but ends up meeting her untimely demise. This is how aerith literally breaks TC (not SC) out of his shell. This is where the real story starts. The fact that she was his responsibility to protect yet fails, causes him to realize that he isn’t the all-around hero he think he was. We then see him slowly turning into a character that would break our hearts, as he is desperate to exist. Then he asks tifa for her opinion. The one thing that matters (no matter who the player favors), not because she knows the event but because this whole façade was made for her to accept. Yet tifa indirectly invalidates his existence, the opposite of what OG aerith did. The one thing TC is running away from, rejection. To me his mental breakdown signifies SC’s death. As it is, this isn’t his story (much like it’s not the player’s story). But instead of the host coming back to the surface, he is nowhere to be found. It’s not as simple as it seems (I mean it’s also FF). I take this as TC having nothing to preserve himself, he is at his weakest point. But this isn’t a bad thing, just the natural progression of things. Though he thinks all hope is lost, Tifa then, enters into his space whether he likes it or not (in mideel). Literally reminding him of what matters (lifestream), TC. Once whole again, ready for the battle.
I kind of get why the devs are so lenient with saying shit like it’s up to you which girl you want to pick. Or adding a mechanic just for the fun of it because whatever you do with SC doesn’t actually matter. Because whoever you pick, aerith’s still the responsibility you failed and CT has their own arc after. Except of course if you failed to give TC a good time in the HW scene. Regardless of whether he fell/not for aerith doesn’t matter. What the alter feels doesn’t equal to what the host wants. Maybe unless they like the same thing, like in remake. Wonder how that works though. TC does come out when he’s with tifa. But aren’t there times in OG where TC overrides the sweet things the player chooses for aerith with something less…sweet? Can I assume he comes out in opposition? Anyway, going by this thinking all I can think of is aerith’s “even if you do it’s not real/just your imagination” is literally, “just your imagination”= aka SC. I realize it’s just sad for her now, but I don’t know if she’s still interested to meet TC (I actually gave up on that but I still want it to happen but not for the LTD). So SC’s narrative finish in OG, but his is only the exposition and rising action for TC in OG. HW is CT’s resolution. Before AC, TC remembers everything right? But he knows that he wasn’t capable at that time of contextualizing feelings (at least that’s what I heard). I did say modified DID (Like Golden Time’s
).
I consider CoT as the equivalent of SC's new life bonding with aerith until his eventual breakdown in mideel. First things look good, he does what he can then realizes he can't bite off more than one can chew, then he retreats to the Church seemingly being at his worst. But in that one it's written more fairy tale like at the start, here it's written in a realistic tone as TC takes the stage this time, properly doing his own side of the story. My understanding of cloud if we're just going by his pattern. He starts off CoT with a desire that tifa could rely on him, at least that's what I got with his " If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you" as he blushes probably unsure if he could do it. Tifa then proceeds to show him the ropes into his new life with reasonable worries of her own. "He is pushing himself too hard for me. Will he leave one day once the bar gets on the right track? Tifa shook her head trying to drive that doubt away. She told herself she shouldn’t hope for anything more than this" Tifa sure knows this guy's shtick, if I didn't know any better I'd think she's quite traumatized (I mean 4x?) . In my pov, cloud is enthusiastic to prove something in himself, working his ass off with things he isn't comfortable with. Maybe to get back the years he lost and to become the adult he needs to be in this equation. While he's grateful for tifa's support, I can feel that he wants to prove that he can stand on his own so that he could be someone one can rely on. There's one thing I feel bad for cloud though, I wish she could have said something more than just a nod at cloud when he looked at her about the family part. Anyway, I don't know how he took that but after this, he started doing things without consulting her first. Makes sense, cloud wants to be equal/more and therefore have his own will, but it only ends up making tifa lonely. Now, this is where things escalate. I don't know if it has anything to do with the weight of the word "family", but that is a huge responsibility. Everything is a blur after that, we learn he took Elmyra's request. I consider this part as SC's cracks showing up and when aerith tried to help, is akin to Tifa trying to preserve the bond again only to end up in vain. To me, I considered what he told tifa about being unable to talk to Marlene as his answer to her real question, indirectly answering her that he does love her (he does the same with his "beautiful" line, using the drink as a plan B if he failed). I think he's afraid to give her false hopes, not because he doesn't love her but because he doesn't know if he deserves to say it, he isn't sure he can keep it. His usual pattern. Pressured by that desire to prove something in himself w/o relying on others, he took denzel and we realize later why. Things just end up getting worse though no matter how much tifa reassures him of how much he isn't alone in this battle. Truly, they need help. It's not tifa's fault but rather no matter where, as long as cloud continues to not include himself into the equation of things worthy of cherishing then nothing will work in his life, no matter how many "new life" he is blessed with. I consider AC the continuation of mideel but cloud gets a really long therapy with the whole cast where aerith takes the last stage reminding him of what's important as tifa did in the lifestream, himself (forgiving himself, something only he can do). What happens after that, everyone knows that he is ready for battle. I consider Cloud smiling at tifa as their HW equivalent. Blessed with another chance at life (again literally like in OG), knowing he isn't alone and allowing himself to deserve that. Now he knows everything will be alright. Thus concludes the real journey of not SC but Cloud Strife.
Okay this isn't a cloud analysis thread I know but I did this to show that there is a pattern that happens with aerith and him. As L.C. says aerith acts like an opportunity for his redemption. Her death, being his only mistake forces cloud to ponder his own self. He can't keep running away just like how he can't stay inside the illusion called SC. With tifa, I think he is driven with shame (there's still a leeway for escape) but guilt is worse than shame, as it is the highest form of sadness, you can't just sleep on it or go around it. You can't just save a life/bring someone from the dead just to prove your worth, it's not the same as with just trying to be a soldier/hero/delivery man etc. Even if cloud is happy, it’s not easy to show that but we do know he wants to otherwise he could just throw everything away yet didn't (like his phone etc). I’m not surprised why cloud's feelings for aerith in the ultimania is just guilt, it took her literal death just to give him this opportunity for him to challenge his own conflict (both in OG and AC). That’s how strong her death ties into his story. But I think just guilt is sad, so going by what Nomura says about them in KH (showing their relationship). I see an aerith giving guidance to cloud as she does indirectly with her death and with her words of wisdom. Akin to Jesus Christ dying to give the world a chance of forgiveness from their sins, a new life. Also cloud like in OG (as SC), AC (Church), KH (before receiving tifa's light), had to go first to her before the real battle, like a prayer guiding his way. I consider Zack and Aerith both signifying Grace (blessings) and Guidance in Cloud's life. SC might have had feelings for aerith but it doesn't matter, this isn't his story. TC at most is filled with gratitude for her in the way we are grateful to god for answering our prayers (his goal, leading a proper path towards happiness). Thus he will always keep her in his heart, for she has been a vital part of his journey too. PS I think I’ve already implied the same theme with Re!aerith in my last post (pushing SC to tifa and giving him words of wisdom in her resolution).
Uh, going by this I guess I just dropped the Yuki-thoru thing (uh but even Yuki treats thoru like some saint, I swear Thoru and Aerith have similar key plot points ugh). The wavering doesn't seem to be as important to me now. But In a way, spiritual feels really intangible/detached but going by the theme it makes sense. People do hold onto the divine to guide and bless them out of their struggles. For cloud is tormented by his inability to face what he needs to face, to be where he wants to be at. I don't think this is eros, but sometimes people do love their spiritual figures more than their SO, it happens. What aerith has to offer is agape in his mind. I still consider her motherly though, maybe not claudia. It makes me laugh however how similarly she is designed to Mother Mary. The stumping of the serpent (like sepiroth) on her feet + the meaning, her accession in heaven, and her reunion flowers strikingly close to lilies (Mother Mary motif). Keywords earth, flowers/plants, healer and she literally gets called as one. To conclude what I think about this debate, the biggest difference I see with how how he treats aerith and tifa? With aerith he allows himself to be guided by (though sometimes stubborn) but with tifa he refuses to be beneath her, it should be always equal/more (" I don't know about need..."). But soon realizes equal or not, doesn't matter anyway Cloud is Cloud and that’s how she always wanted it anyway.
Bonus: In KH Aerith tells Sora “Stay strong Sora. Don’t let illusions distract you from what’s truly important” then she suddenly disappears. Doesn’t seem to be the same Aerith he’s always been talking to. She does the same guidance and has the same vibe as her resolution. Just wanted to share this lol.
Extra Commentary (not really important):
The last one before I go. I did say that I don’t know Nojima as a writer but this guy sure has a thing for patterns and repetition. Also, I’m only going to look at the characters as their function/ role to cloud’s story. So I wouldn’t go 1:1, just the abstract of it as much as possible. I think there are others who has dived through this more than I and they were awesome. Some I would imply as a plot device and if that offends anyone, that’s not my intention (promise!). Okay, so the theme I used is Self-acceptance and it’s aided by mental health subjects (modified for creative writing). And I got the idea from this incredible analysis by Klemira, Curious Amber’s video essay on Cloud Strife, a bit from L.C.’s take on the LTD, and some info from Dr Mike Llyod (DID specialist).
True Cloud is our main character w/ a simple pattern of his conflict. Consists a series of hiding/ running away from his desires due to a failure he did once. Once bitten, twice as shy. What’s Fascinating to me is that cloud, regardless of his good looks, his natural strength, his kindness, (later on, the feats he actually did as a real hero in CC and OG) etc. is plagued by low self-esteem issues (understandable, for he is young). To me Tifa symbolizes Happiness in Cloud’s internal plot. Through her there is self-acceptance, relations/ bonds/support (friends etc). Where strong relationships with friends, lover, and family was crucial not only for happiness but for health and even resiliency (Harvard Longitudinal study of Adult Development). Something that Cloud severely lacked growing up, to some degree his fault too. In a way, tifa acts as his goal to “fix” his conflicts. If tifa accepts him or impresses her, then maybe things will go his way. What’s ironic is that Happiness was only just one step away but he’s the one that keeps denying himself of that: Promise- A girl who never accepted invites goes to him while he goes away for her, CC- She excitedly and desperately searched for him yet he hides with a helmet not to disappoint her, OG- She’s the one who found him + still takes care of him and he hides himself in the form of Soldier Cloud to gain her favor, AC- She wants to be a family with him but he goes away to fix his shit so he could feel like he can deserve/protect what they have now. There’s a pattern of needing to prove something first in himself before he thinks he can deserve it. Reminds me of how he rejects his mother about needing someone who takes care of him. This man has an unhealthy relationship with his pride and sense of self. What Cloud needs in his resolution is the ability to accept himself in order to believe that he is allowed (not permitted) to deserve happiness. Hence why I think “A memory or us” signifies choosing between being stuck with his memories of failures (that causes him fear) vs a life with the opportunity of happiness with everyone (not just tifa). Aka the things he cherishes! Once cloud gains this, then there is no room for darkness (Sepiroth) to tempt him back on running/hiding away from what matters. That his strength lies in knowing that he can rely on others and that most of all, that he believes in himself no matter how imperfect.
Soldier Cloud is the biggest manifestation of true cloud’s escapism from rejection. Through completely denying himself of what makes him who he is, then perhaps he will be accepted. In a way, SC acts like an alter to a DID patient. It exists to protect him from his other traumas and to be his representative to do what he couldn’t do as TC. Like the player taking the wheel of his fate, he leaves it up to you to fulfill his story that he doesn’t know how to finish. An alter can either be good or bad for the host, but ultimately TC isn’t ready and neither is tifa. This is where aerith enters the field. Before that, I find it brutal but this has nothing to do with her character/ my real opinion of her, just her function in this narrative. Okay, when dealing with an alter, you either work with it or you don’t. What works best depends on the case. What does end up happening first is, SC and OG aerith in a continuous cycle of back and forth acts of reenacting a fantasy. Very fitting for the dark side of Chesed (Kabbalah), which is over giving. He is able to be a hero/soldier while aerith is able to redo her memories. Not for long, because SC is unstable and dangerous at times. This alter is turning into a complete disorder. Aerith wants to help but ends up meeting her untimely demise. This is how aerith literally breaks TC (not SC) out of his shell. This is where the real story starts. The fact that she was his responsibility to protect yet fails, causes him to realize that he isn’t the all-around hero he think he was. We then see him slowly turning into a character that would break our hearts, as he is desperate to exist. Then he asks tifa for her opinion. The one thing that matters (no matter who the player favors), not because she knows the event but because this whole façade was made for her to accept. Yet tifa indirectly invalidates his existence, the opposite of what OG aerith did. The one thing TC is running away from, rejection. To me his mental breakdown signifies SC’s death. As it is, this isn’t his story (much like it’s not the player’s story). But instead of the host coming back to the surface, he is nowhere to be found. It’s not as simple as it seems (I mean it’s also FF). I take this as TC having nothing to preserve himself, he is at his weakest point. But this isn’t a bad thing, just the natural progression of things. Though he thinks all hope is lost, Tifa then, enters into his space whether he likes it or not (in mideel). Literally reminding him of what matters (lifestream), TC. Once whole again, ready for the battle.
I kind of get why the devs are so lenient with saying shit like it’s up to you which girl you want to pick. Or adding a mechanic just for the fun of it because whatever you do with SC doesn’t actually matter. Because whoever you pick, aerith’s still the responsibility you failed and CT has their own arc after. Except of course if you failed to give TC a good time in the HW scene. Regardless of whether he fell/not for aerith doesn’t matter. What the alter feels doesn’t equal to what the host wants. Maybe unless they like the same thing, like in remake. Wonder how that works though. TC does come out when he’s with tifa. But aren’t there times in OG where TC overrides the sweet things the player chooses for aerith with something less…sweet? Can I assume he comes out in opposition? Anyway, going by this thinking all I can think of is aerith’s “even if you do it’s not real/just your imagination” is literally, “just your imagination”= aka SC. I realize it’s just sad for her now, but I don’t know if she’s still interested to meet TC (I actually gave up on that but I still want it to happen but not for the LTD). So SC’s narrative finish in OG, but his is only the exposition and rising action for TC in OG. HW is CT’s resolution. Before AC, TC remembers everything right? But he knows that he wasn’t capable at that time of contextualizing feelings (at least that’s what I heard). I did say modified DID (Like Golden Time’s
modified amnesia that almost acts like DID
I consider CoT as the equivalent of SC's new life bonding with aerith until his eventual breakdown in mideel. First things look good, he does what he can then realizes he can't bite off more than one can chew, then he retreats to the Church seemingly being at his worst. But in that one it's written more fairy tale like at the start, here it's written in a realistic tone as TC takes the stage this time, properly doing his own side of the story. My understanding of cloud if we're just going by his pattern. He starts off CoT with a desire that tifa could rely on him, at least that's what I got with his " If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you" as he blushes probably unsure if he could do it. Tifa then proceeds to show him the ropes into his new life with reasonable worries of her own. "He is pushing himself too hard for me. Will he leave one day once the bar gets on the right track? Tifa shook her head trying to drive that doubt away. She told herself she shouldn’t hope for anything more than this" Tifa sure knows this guy's shtick, if I didn't know any better I'd think she's quite traumatized (I mean 4x?) . In my pov, cloud is enthusiastic to prove something in himself, working his ass off with things he isn't comfortable with. Maybe to get back the years he lost and to become the adult he needs to be in this equation. While he's grateful for tifa's support, I can feel that he wants to prove that he can stand on his own so that he could be someone one can rely on. There's one thing I feel bad for cloud though, I wish she could have said something more than just a nod at cloud when he looked at her about the family part. Anyway, I don't know how he took that but after this, he started doing things without consulting her first. Makes sense, cloud wants to be equal/more and therefore have his own will, but it only ends up making tifa lonely. Now, this is where things escalate. I don't know if it has anything to do with the weight of the word "family", but that is a huge responsibility. Everything is a blur after that, we learn he took Elmyra's request. I consider this part as SC's cracks showing up and when aerith tried to help, is akin to Tifa trying to preserve the bond again only to end up in vain. To me, I considered what he told tifa about being unable to talk to Marlene as his answer to her real question, indirectly answering her that he does love her (he does the same with his "beautiful" line, using the drink as a plan B if he failed). I think he's afraid to give her false hopes, not because he doesn't love her but because he doesn't know if he deserves to say it, he isn't sure he can keep it. His usual pattern. Pressured by that desire to prove something in himself w/o relying on others, he took denzel and we realize later why. Things just end up getting worse though no matter how much tifa reassures him of how much he isn't alone in this battle. Truly, they need help. It's not tifa's fault but rather no matter where, as long as cloud continues to not include himself into the equation of things worthy of cherishing then nothing will work in his life, no matter how many "new life" he is blessed with. I consider AC the continuation of mideel but cloud gets a really long therapy with the whole cast where aerith takes the last stage reminding him of what's important as tifa did in the lifestream, himself (forgiving himself, something only he can do). What happens after that, everyone knows that he is ready for battle. I consider Cloud smiling at tifa as their HW equivalent. Blessed with another chance at life (again literally like in OG), knowing he isn't alone and allowing himself to deserve that. Now he knows everything will be alright. Thus concludes the real journey of not SC but Cloud Strife.
Okay this isn't a cloud analysis thread I know but I did this to show that there is a pattern that happens with aerith and him. As L.C. says aerith acts like an opportunity for his redemption. Her death, being his only mistake forces cloud to ponder his own self. He can't keep running away just like how he can't stay inside the illusion called SC. With tifa, I think he is driven with shame (there's still a leeway for escape) but guilt is worse than shame, as it is the highest form of sadness, you can't just sleep on it or go around it. You can't just save a life/bring someone from the dead just to prove your worth, it's not the same as with just trying to be a soldier/hero/delivery man etc. Even if cloud is happy, it’s not easy to show that but we do know he wants to otherwise he could just throw everything away yet didn't (like his phone etc). I’m not surprised why cloud's feelings for aerith in the ultimania is just guilt, it took her literal death just to give him this opportunity for him to challenge his own conflict (both in OG and AC). That’s how strong her death ties into his story. But I think just guilt is sad, so going by what Nomura says about them in KH (showing their relationship). I see an aerith giving guidance to cloud as she does indirectly with her death and with her words of wisdom. Akin to Jesus Christ dying to give the world a chance of forgiveness from their sins, a new life. Also cloud like in OG (as SC), AC (Church), KH (before receiving tifa's light), had to go first to her before the real battle, like a prayer guiding his way. I consider Zack and Aerith both signifying Grace (blessings) and Guidance in Cloud's life. SC might have had feelings for aerith but it doesn't matter, this isn't his story. TC at most is filled with gratitude for her in the way we are grateful to god for answering our prayers (his goal, leading a proper path towards happiness). Thus he will always keep her in his heart, for she has been a vital part of his journey too. PS I think I’ve already implied the same theme with Re!aerith in my last post (pushing SC to tifa and giving him words of wisdom in her resolution).
Uh, going by this I guess I just dropped the Yuki-thoru thing (uh but even Yuki treats thoru like some saint, I swear Thoru and Aerith have similar key plot points ugh). The wavering doesn't seem to be as important to me now. But In a way, spiritual feels really intangible/detached but going by the theme it makes sense. People do hold onto the divine to guide and bless them out of their struggles. For cloud is tormented by his inability to face what he needs to face, to be where he wants to be at. I don't think this is eros, but sometimes people do love their spiritual figures more than their SO, it happens. What aerith has to offer is agape in his mind. I still consider her motherly though, maybe not claudia. It makes me laugh however how similarly she is designed to Mother Mary. The stumping of the serpent (like sepiroth) on her feet + the meaning, her accession in heaven, and her reunion flowers strikingly close to lilies (Mother Mary motif). Keywords earth, flowers/plants, healer and she literally gets called as one. To conclude what I think about this debate, the biggest difference I see with how how he treats aerith and tifa? With aerith he allows himself to be guided by (though sometimes stubborn) but with tifa he refuses to be beneath her, it should be always equal/more (" I don't know about need..."). But soon realizes equal or not, doesn't matter anyway Cloud is Cloud and that’s how she always wanted it anyway.
Bonus: In KH Aerith tells Sora “Stay strong Sora. Don’t let illusions distract you from what’s truly important” then she suddenly disappears. Doesn’t seem to be the same Aerith he’s always been talking to. She does the same guidance and has the same vibe as her resolution. Just wanted to share this lol.
Extra Commentary (not really important):
- I think cloud is demisexual.
- I think ZA will die together for some reason.
- Remake is the 25th anniversary for C & T (CT), but also the continuation of Aerith’s story. This is her story. I always took CA’s promotional artworks as two main characters who influence each other but leading on their own separate narrative. I implied before that aerith acts like a plot device in OG, but after CC etc. her dialogue in OG have been given soul to me but before it was really hollow. Tifa too has been improved tremendously. If my memory doesn’t betray me, I read in an FF8 interview that one of their mistakes in FF7 is not having enough female employee imputed in the mix.
- The fact that CT weren’t close childhood friends isn’t a negative, it’s a huge plus.
- “Words aren’t the only thing that show you what you feel” reminded me of P3P akihiko’s
. How can anybody think that is anything but suggestive is beyond me.“let our bodies do the talking”
- Comparing CT to Tess & Joel (Last of us), and Fran & Balthier (FF12) makes CT quite the scandalous “ambiguous” pairing.
- Everyone would get CT if this wasn’t a LT.
- Nojima seem to have a thing for reunions where the girl collects their man (in his other FF games). If anything, I’d say ZA is his most ambitious yet.
- SC’s relationships. Imagine having a professional relationship with a coworker/classmate. You talk, interact, go through hurdles and have comradery from that. Though outside of that space, there's nothing more (hollow). connecting only through the surface (SC) is not fake but rather incomplete. You can call it a start, but as long as you're not permitted (through TC), then its close, but no cigar.
- Feck that “it wasn’t serious”, it’s almost synonymous with cloud’s “no!” when asked if tifa is his girlfriend. Technically, it was both not serious by dating standards and tifa isn’t his girlfriend. But the thing is, both of them desire so badly for it to be so!
- I’m so sappy but essentially Cloud’s whole thing is “You can always choose to be happy if you really want to”. As faint heart never won fair lady.
- Kid cloud saying he wanted to be like Sepiroth, sounds like a foreshadowing to madness now.
- I hate how much Thinking of you (Katy Perry) and This I promise you (NSYNC) is 1:1 to ZA and CT. wth
- I have great expectation for the HW, considering the writer gave his own birthday to that event.
- I think Aerith’s lover referred to SC not TC.
- AC seems to have Christian references. Both OG has Nordic and Tree of Life (kabbalah) references. I think?
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
Whoa! Did you write a theses? I dont even reply your previous one yet.
And the woman's feelings?
Anyway, I also wanna share this doujins for you
I also find similarity about Kenshin x Kaoru to Cloti. An online friend who study Japanese Literature said that "a man leaving his woman/family to face his own problem "is classic/historical JP trope and then he return after overcoming it. Besides Kenshin when Shishio declared war so he left to Kyoto, I can see this pattern in shounen manga like Naruto (with Sasuke character) and One Piece (with Sanji). Cloud also did this before AC.
Based on that pattern, Clerith doesn't even stand a chance. And I agree with you that fact is both Cloud and Aerith's feelings ever wavered, to Cloud it's between them her and Tifa, and to Aerith, it's between him and Zack: hence, a LTD (or LSD for Compilation). But, again, this fact doesn't matter as it never goes anywhere that they eventually reunite with and return to their respective partner. From illusion/fake love to the real/true one.
Well, as Aerith said, "Even if you do (fall in love with me), it's not real." which Toriyama also confirms in FF7R Material Ultimania Plus that Aerith also reflect the line to herself.
Well, I've read manga since 90s and I read Fruit Basket manga at the time of its serialization. Nah, I just complete it and never reread or dive myself in the fandom; so I really forget the detail to analyze the characters and their relationship. I just remember I was on Kyo Team since the beginning. And since I'm sucker for tragedy, my fave one is Tohru's parents lol.
You've liked my 13 posts so you might've known I ever mentioned about Kiyosato x Tomoe x Kenshin similarly with Zack x Aerith x Cloud. Kenshin loves Tomoe romantically but he felt very guilty not only because of her death but also because he found out he's the one who took her happiness (by killing her fiancee), he probably never knows Tomoe had loved him, too, not revenge anymore.
And the woman's feelings?
Anyway, I also wanna share this doujins for you
To put it simply, regarding romance, Nojima values a deep and long-lasting relationship in hardship, a romantic relationship that needs to be maintained because once you confess your feelings and declare that "hey, we're official/canon now", it's not over yet. Let's pick his writings in FF7, FF8, and FF10. But I dont wanna repeat that because I know you've read and liked my post talking about it.
Based on that pattern, Clerith doesn't even stand a chance. And I agree with you that fact is both Cloud and Aerith's feelings ever wavered, to Cloud it's between them her and Tifa, and to Aerith, it's between him and Zack: hence, a LTD (or LSD for Compilation). But, again, this fact doesn't matter as it never goes anywhere that they eventually reunite with and return to their respective partner. From illusion/fake love to the real/true one.
Well, as Aerith said, "Even if you do (fall in love with me), it's not real." which Toriyama also confirms in FF7R Material Ultimania Plus that Aerith also reflect the line to herself.
There are two AMVs in youtube about Aerith seeing Zack in Cloud using this song. Heck, the original PV of the singer literally telling it without AMV, Though, her arc is she finally moving on from that grief so her feelings for Cloud as her second love is genuine (just to reunite with her dead first love in the next few days ironically)
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Biscuit
Rookie Adventurer
- AKA
- Bikit
>_<|||
I don't read a lot of tragedy (it triggers me) but maybe you'll like these ones (though I think you already know them ahaha): Tsuka No Ma No Ichika, I Want to Hold Aono-kun So Badly I Could Die, and Bronze No Tenshi (not a fave but it's based in real life).
Hmm I don't know if we've arrived at the same conclusion. I forgot the summary you made. But mine's not far from my narration with One more chance, One more time (except the "false image"part).
I'm only going to refer to the manga ver because to me the 2 OVA and Live-action are really different. In my POV Tomoe was at the height of her depression, anger, longing, etc. Fast forward into their "married" life, to me I see Tomoe being able to relieve the things she wasn't able to do with Akira (be a wife, etc). I mean he was her childhood love so I can only imagine she had fantasies of their future then taken away so suddenly. I don't think she just liked Kenshin as himself, I feel like his kindness also reminded her of akira (that's my head canon because that guy did everything just to see her smile, to the point he would endanger his life. Got to hurt kenshin despite being really weak because he just can't die yet, god I love that panel. I can't possibly think that kenshin loved tomoe more than akira). Fast forward, she tells her truth to kenshin. Now, for me? I think Tomoe did love kenshin but she didn't love him more than akira. By the time of her sacrifice, she did it for 3 people: Kenshin (to show her gratitude for giving her a second chance at her dreams/regrets like to smile/save his life, Allowing her to remain as herself because she didn't have to kill him, and that kenshin's kindness & dreams for the new age give akira's death have meaning, that he didn't die just in vain) , Tomoe (To redeem herself from her sin of loving her fiance's killer), Akira (to finally be with him) . Summary is akira>tomoe>kenshin>enishi for Tomoe. I always thought if akira was her first priority, then it would make more sense why she didn't thought of enishi or her father when she decided to do this (because I feel really bad for enishi). Tomoe always had another choice if she wanted to live, she could have just told the truth to kenshin that night but choose not to because her priority was to protect him (reminds me of her regret w/akira but this is battousai lol, trust in him). There are other more factors why I think she loved akira more but anyway, I liked that she smiled at kenshin during her deathbed. It's like she was telling him, "You have no idea how much you made me happy and this was my choice, so please don't cry" than her OVA and live-action. She felt more "just being Human" in the manga while in the others, it's like she was putting a curse onto him as she places a wound right next to akira's. Anyway that's about it. I don't know if it's the same as yours, but I think it still ties in a bit with Zack x Aerith x Cloud. Where aerith too, is at the height of her grief ( who like tomoe, for 4 years probably fantasized a future with zack only for it to be taken away). Then she meets cloud who helped her relieve the things she couldn't do/ wanted to remember (like how I imagined with kenshin). Every step amplified what she could have felt for SC and later on, wanted to do something for him (gratitude) but ends up dying. Maybe love? I don't know. But that's how I see those three tying up in this formula (but it's tremendously toned down etc). Actually, If I'm just going by my theory with SC, that would mean she fell in love with two soldiers who died too early. But Zack takes the win for me because SC is unfaithful and questionable at best haha. Though I think, whatever happened with CA in OG was more for aerith's story than TC's. I really did think it was only a plot device and her death was the thing that connects her to TC.
Hahaha thank you! but as a Kenkao fan I've definitely seen his works. But yes, I really loved this one!
But both kenshin and cloud keeps forgetting something. The power of friendship/relationship haha.
Regarding Nojima's writing, tbh I think DoT to AC would have been a really difficult read with how inorganic it feels (also it's weird transition from OG). If I didn't saw that OG was like it's direct blueprint (If I'm right), then I could see why people thought of tifa that way. For some reason in both OG & CoT- AC, Tifa always gets the damage because of the way it's written. I get that it was like a modified 1:1 restart for TC, but it could have been handled way better. Anyway, If I'm right then I see CT's being tributed properly in Remake and I'm super excited for the fans who had to wait for so long. I'm not shipping anybody in FF7 (well maybe Tifa x rufus) but as a ShinRan fan (Detective Conan) I get the pain. Mine hasn't even reunited yet in the truest sense since 1994.
Hmm I'm not asserting my stance on this one, but my personal opinion of that is she fell in love more with the idea of moving on from zack with SC, than SC himself but she does so subconsciously. Usually (even if it's not romantic), It's quite difficult to say that she just moved on from her grief while knowing completely nothing of what happened and why I like how she's searching for answers in remake, maybe she realizes that. To me there's a difference with moving on (reactive) and moving forward (proactive), the latter needs for you to handle your past first while the former expects that you throw/forget it. But In game, I suppose we could say that aerith completely fell in love with SC but I just couldn't see her loving him more than Zack considering the nature of their beginning (plus there seems to be a part in aerith that pushes her thoughts of zack away). Plus going by what I said in my third post, even if she lived it'll only end up in vain because he isn't real & he's dependent on tifa's opinion. Seriously at first I thought the devs were just trolling with the star-crossed lovers thing but they weren't kidding (but it's mostly only on her part). But it only adds to the tragedy of her character in OG.
ughhh I can only imagine the notification for the others, It didn't cross my mind at all. (×_×)
Also I forgot to ask, if anyone can answer me. What is that thing with the DokiDoki? I see it everywhere? all I know it's about cloud's heart skipping a beat? The cleriths I've seen really hold onto that but I couldn't get a good source anywhere, was it from the game? I probably forgot....