SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[frosty]

I'm honestly very curious of how they're going to handle Aerith in Rebirth

Same. I'm more curious about how they handle Zerith moving forward, instead of C/T, because portraying Aerith's character motivations as good and pure now is delicate.

- What will the audiences feel to see her fall in love with Cloud when the story of her falling in love with Zack is still fresh with CCR? I want to know if it's going to fuel more Zack vs. Cloud twitter shenanigans because there was already years of pitting two women against one another i.e Tifa vs. Aerith

- What kind of character will she be perceived to be ( esp. after showing the friendship that she's built with Tifa) to ask Cait Sith about her and Cloud's romantic fortune - if indeed that was the turning point for her to love Cloud for Cloud? Will it still be "awh sho cute" or "omg THAT MAN STEALING BIYATCH". Already I've seen someone on Twitter say Aerith is a bit of "a hoe" . Bad take, but, Twitter will Twitter.

- What kind of character will Cloud be, if he's shown to reciprocate both women's affections towards him? Remake not withstanding because don't think anyone took Jessie seriously (except that one guy)

I know shippers hate it, but I have my popcorn ready for Rebirth.

Though of course I know that Aerith still cherishes Zack, I think the fact that she fell for Cloud in the mean time is an obstacle to their feelings. Because if you fall for someone, reuniting with your first love will always feel different.

But let's look at the timeline here - did I get it right to assume she sent her 89th letter hoping that she'd get a response from Zack just a week before FF7 started?

She meets Cloud for all of 3-4 weeks. If they're keeping consistent with her 30th anniversary monologue (which I assume happens during the events of 7 before she dies) - she's still says she feels a kind of sadness if she were to move on with a new love - implying shes still stuck.

Then there's the weirdness of Advent Children. If we say Aerith was moving on from Zack, falling for Cloud and it becomes a hindrance to her reuniting with Zack...why are they hanging out in the Lifestream together posthumous? D:

Is it weird if this thread is then renamed as the LSD? (Love Square Debate)

 

[eleamaya]

But let's look at the timeline here - did I get it right to assume she sent her 89th letter hoping that she'd get a response from Zack a week before FF7 started?

I'm curious about the timeline because Aerith said "it's been four years" while the time Zack received the letter has been five years since he went to Nibelheim in Sep 0002 (Zack woke up in December 0006 and on the run for 9 months as he died in September 0007, three months before FF7 started in Dec 0007)

 

[frosty]

Ah right, so I had it wrong, I somehow thought FF7 started immediately after Zack died

April 0001 - Zack falls into Aerith's church
Sept 0002 - Nibelhiem incident
Dec 0006 - Zack and Cloud escape - wants to get to Midgar after seeing Aerith's "tiny wishes"

Wiki puts Sept 0007 as the date that Zack defeats Genesis, and he receives Aerith's last letter from the Angeal copy.

So they we're together for a year++, separated for 5, and Aerith stopped writing to him for a year already (and the Angeal copy took 9 months to find Zack?!)

Now I need to know how they spent 008 - 0010 before they popped up together to pep talk AC Cloud

 

[eleamaya]

Together for 1,5 years. Long distance relationship is count as they still talk in Nibelheim via phone call.
And yes, the fact that Zack defeating Genesis is just few weeks or days away from his death shows how he rush to Midgar right after receiving her letters.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah Zack still dies in September, Cloud takes a bit longer to come to Midgar once he's on his own (since he arrives the day prior to the first mission). Also I saw that tweet @frosty it was just pure garbage in a very Twitter way.

I truly think that the Compilation points to Zack being Aerith's "one true love" so to speak. Not that she doesn't fall for Cloud, but... I think that her feelings haven't gotten the time to get really deep like they did for Zack. And, for the record, I am *not* a ZA shipper but I could definitely feel Remake pulling me towards ZA really, really hard lol. In that sense, and especially since her resolution + ending scenes, I can feel that the dev team is gunning for a ZA reunion.

Once she dies, in CoLW it's very clear that fighting Sephiroth becomes her number 1 priority and that all those emotions like love are still important to her - but it's a clear departure of the OG where she was very interested in having a love life. But I still think that there are gaps that the devs can fill there!

 

[Stiggie]

Is it weird if this thread is then renamed as the LSD? (Love Square Debate

Been arguing this for years, no clue why people still call it the LTD. Well I do have a clue, I think it's because once you call it for what it is, a love square, the outcome becomes painfully obvious, which half the fandom doesn't want XD

 

[looneymoon]

only if the fourth corner in the square refers to Jessie

 

[Makoeyes987]

No, stop!

Youll end up invoking him!

You'll destroy us all!

 

[Stiggie]

Youll end up invoking him!

Don't you need to say the name three times in a mirror?

 

[Eerie]

Speaking of an angry shipper, get ready because I'll update that Tifa thread in the upcoming days and I'm not happy about a LOT of things, including some people who post regularly in the forum. And no, it's not Jessie-related. I am fed up.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Don't you need to say the name three times in a mirror?

Incidentally, our old friend has at least two easily recognizable alt accounts. So for those of you on Twitter, don’t be surprised if you come across a totally-unrelated-I-swear-guys account spouting the same talking points.

Or just, y’know, avoid Twitter altogether.

 

[Odysseus]

I need it for reach thoughhh.

Even if it has made me want to take a tire iron to anybody who so much as mentions shipping...

 

[LNK]

Been arguing this for years, no clue why people still call it the LTD. Well I do have a clue, I think it's because once you call it for what it is, a love square, the outcome becomes painfully obvious, which half the fandom doesn't want XD

Which imo is really dumb. In the end, there are two happy couples

 

[eleamaya]

Drop this here. But yeah, if I based on OG only (not Compilation), I always lean on Cloud loves both but he ended up with Tifa whom he has always loved, but I prefer Clerith (Aerith) since I'm sucker for tragedy. For some, this statement will be used as "see? there's no canon couple, it's all up to player's interpretation/affection". Remake still had that remnants of mechanic, but I doubt Rebirth would have it although we still get Gold Saucer in the future. It doesnt feel right with Zack searching for Aerith.

 

[Stiggie]

View attachment 13320
Drop this here. But yeah, if I based on OG only (not Compilation), I always lean on Cloud loves both but he ended up with Tifa whom he has always loved, but I prefer Clerith (Aerith) since I'm sucker for tragedy. For some, this statement will be used as "see? there's no canon couple, it's all up to player's interpretation/affection". Remake still had that remnants of mechanic, but I doubt Rebirth would have it although we still get Gold Saucer in the future. It doesnt feel right with Zack searching for Aerith.

That's an interesting interview, hadn't seen that one yet, but I'd argue that this proves it's not up for interpretation, the key word in this article is "mechanically".
It seems to make a distinction between mechanics and storytelling. For one, it points out that there aren't branching paths, so there is one story here. It's just that mechanically they wanted to acknowledge players emotions, to give some sort of reward to THEIR love of Aerith. But it also specifies that had the path been "completely straightforward", Cloud would end up with Tifa for story related reasons.

In general I'd say this article perfectly describes a game with a single canon story, which is Cloud x Tifa, but where the mechanics allow you to do whatever you like. You can run around and do and think whatever you want, the mechanics allow for it, but that's separate from the actual story, these actions live on the edges of the story.

It's like wondering if Cloud really did spend his time inbreeding a bunch of chocobo and racing them, it's not really a part of the story, but the mechanics are there for the people who are into that sort of thing. So if you want to spend ages breeding chocobo the mechanics of the game allow and reward that, but when it comes to storytelling Cloud probably just did one or two races, and thats it.

but I prefer Clerith (Aerith) since I'm sucker for tragedy

I don't get this, the tragedy of Aeriths death doesn't come from Cloud having a crush on her, but from history essentially repeating itself and from Clouds feelings of inadequacy and fear of failure. Him failing as a "soldier first class", same as when he was just a grunt. I don't see what them having a crush on each other adds to that. If anything it makes it less tragic as Aerith as a love interest lessens her role as a surrogate mother. And I'd argue that the tragedy of Cloud losing his spiritual mother mirroring him losing his real mother, as well as Zack, is far more tragic.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah, Zack and Aerith works far better for me as a tragic romance because they actually got to have a romantic relationship before the tragedy struck, but hey to each their own

 

[eleamaya]

Yeah, Zack and Aerith works far better for me as a tragic romance because they actually got to have a romantic relationship before the tragedy struck, but hey to each their own

this is why in compilation, since AC, I'm in the Zerith camp

 

[null]

It's not that there are branching paths, but I absolutely wanted to incorporate a mechanic that reflect the player's feelings.

Yeah that doesn't work at all, and it's 100% the reason this mess still exists in 2023. You gave the player the illusion of choice in a story predestined to contradict those choices. If the girl I like dies, and the MC moves on with the other girl he has a massive history with, and instead of giving me actual control over the scenario you spin it in a way that allows me to delude myself, you're not reflecting my feelings. You're just confusing and pissing me off.

Especially when the mechanic behind the fake choices is arcane as all hell. "You wanna get dolled up and come with me to kill Marlene's dad?" "Oh baby (+10)"

 

[Ryushikaze]

The affection mechanic values are nonsense, arbitrary, and defy common sense. It is known. Barret can like you more for things you say when he's literally miles away.

Regarding Aerith's plot arc and Zack, I think it's important to remember that she is entirely aware of the fact that he's dead, she just doesn't want to admit it. She's not getting over being jilted, she's getting over knowing that he's died coming back to her, AND the new cute guy she likes just happens to remind her of him in oh so many ways. That's why her arc is about moving on from him, and not falling out of love with him and why it's entirely plausible that they would rekindle that if they met in an afterlife of some sort.

 

[Biscuit]

Uh.......so Im having anxiety and this is super awkward because of the silence but I'll try ..but maybe Ill regret posting this as soon as Im done. I randomly just started speed reading this forum back when you guys were talking about tifa's panties (about like page 90). I have no idea what topics you had back at the beginning but I've read everything after page 90. So im just going to ask questions first before I expand it just to save myself from the shame of over explaining.

1) Have you guys taken the Yuki-Thoru (fruits basket) perspective on cloud and aerith's relationship (particularly on cloud's pov)? I've seen some already brought up the mother aspect.

2) how much does cloud remember his mom? Is it the same as unclear as tifa's? Because if so...im thinking what if the reason for his feelings wavering, isn't because he can't choose between the two but rather he can't decipher what is which for the girls. Like he knows he has strong feelings for tifa but can't understand, and perhaps he has this "familiar" feeling about aerith but can't understand (something that allows him to form a strong connection with her really fast that feels more than a friend, and yes it's like loosing his own mother a second time). Its easy for him to be confused/to waver because he is inexperienced and well....he isn't okay. But only after maturing and broadening his mind (gaining his memories back) can he be able to understand that perhaps the romantic feelings (he may or may not felt) was actually another form afterall. I just really see cloud acting like yuki during the initial days of his confusion (there was even a scene where he got all enchanted when he saw thoru all dressed up). And somehow well maybe its just me, claudia gives me aerith vibes. Maybe its shallow but aerith's scene where he teases cloud twice despite having a hunch what the answer is already ( "you're getting defensive" & the "who did you give the flower to?") And even cloud's defensive/ dismissive replies remind me so much of that one scene with him and his mother (who teased/baited him for an answer only for him to shut her off). I am aware that the "wavering" part is just part of the Mechanic for soldier cloud and the player but yeah...this is how I understand it regardless.

3) is there a possibility for aerith to actually meet true cloud (w/o the guilt like in AC)? Maybe im stupid but I just really feel that , that would kill LTD.... I mean isn't it the "what ifs" that could have kept that ship going? But nobody, not even aerith knows how she and true cloud will fare had she lived. Uh...I guess its just straightforward to beat the illusion with a literal reality (afterall this game is so into that)? Just to fill in the blanks and for aerith to finally find her answer she may or may not have about her feelings for cloud? An opportunity so cruelly stolen away from her from OG.

4) that being said..... Is it not possible that the "even if you think you do, its not real" is also something she's saying about herself? Her lifestream white line already happened here, Im thinking.... What exactly did cloud symbolized that she wanted to protect? ........ wasn't it zack? If anything else..... Freedom? Freedom from helping her move on from zack? But freedom is ....im not sure ...a thing for both aerith and zack? Im not making any sense am I forgive me. But essentially.... I think OG aerith is confused as well but she's here to find her own answer is what I think (that's her resolution). Since we don't know her new powers (if she has something new). Maybe its just me hoping that just like tifa who didn't wait for a hero (cloud) and started training, maybe aerith is here to move on from moving on (because she just cant, not yet, not like this) and started to make a path for herself and for Re!aerith (the complete opposite of her music's theme about waiting for zack. it feels like a better character development to me. About her 100% accepting herself as a cetra and the possibility it can bring just to do the impossible and be reunited with.....zack and perhaps to meet true cloud to find her answer. It might fail but she is willing to take that gamble). I know its human thing to accept and move on....but aerith isn't exactly human and I think this makes her badass (im so sick about her being mostly attributed to "the love interest", "that iconic death scene" then her cetra part comes pretty much last...it feels so underutilized and overshadowed).

In my perspective...both cloud and aerith have their feelings wavering in between two people due to unclear information. Cloud found his answer after lifestream but aerith is the only one who hasn't. I cannot say she likes true cloud for who he is because she never got to knew him (there's also other factors too). I remember a theory I read before that Johnny was an allusion to true cloud and whether that's true or not...I found it amusing how she just calls him "not the brightest tool in the shed" and cloud replying "thats someone you don't want to know" after she asked "who is that?". Maybe that's a reach maybe its not, him going the top simping for tifa, wanting to save her despite being so clumsy...isn't exactly far off from how true cloud acts. I don't think this is the guy aerith knows exactly..... She might like him or not but I would feel really bad for her if it turns out to be trully romantic, because this guy is impenetrable when it comes to tifa...and that would make her more confused about zack and cloud (plus does she have the time? She's about to die...I don't want SE to overcomplicate this, we still have the main plot). Also aerith and zack FINALLY reuniting after all THAT, is just like tifa and cloud reuniting after all THAT. Two happy pairs ending both with their respective first love. (It makes me sad some people don't ship ZA, I really like Akira x Tomoe in RK. I can't help but imagine the smile and tears she'll be having on her face once she sees zack again).

Im also very very sure cloud doesn't have real romantic feelings for aerith otherwise it will really make him look really REALLY bad after literally hooking up HAPPILY with tifa just weeks after her death (in front of him no less and also beating her up). Others point out that it's just "its the end of the world so why the hell not have sex with this girl who's into me" and I just can't imagine someone thinking that's a better characterization than accepting that cloud actually reciprocates tifa's feelings this whole time and it was never really technically questioned per say, He's just confused (also is that the kind of guy some people want for aerith ..really? Uh...).

I also want to note that I'm aware that remake won't go overboard too much as they will still keep major events. Im just thinking what if she lives a bit long enough to meet true cloud after tifa saves him (does aerith really need to die first, tifa get all stressed and insecure before cloud becomes vegetable?) . Because if they could finally meet.... it would really feel like a proper send off because finally their relationship doesn't feel so half-real and sad. Im also aware that zack and aerith may or may not meet but I really HIGHLY really doubt that. Anyway I said im just gonna ask and not over explain but I still did ....smh. I read through all this forum since page 90 and I was just itching to say something and so there you go. I don't have a ship per say, but I just think CT and ZA "together" gives the best storyline in my pov.

Anyway Im uselessly blabbering already. Im pretty sure you guys know this more than I do, so Im probably wrong! Im really new to FF7 but am fully aware of the compilation. All I know is that I'm used to love triangles and the different patterns it takes *in fiction* and how it can be resolved cleanly (that's not something to be proud of and I might be wrong but luckily I usually get it right). I know I look like Im overreacting but just like cloud I really REALLY suck at communicating and this is taking all the courage in me just to say these things!

 

[Leafonthebreeze]

No worries about being nervous, you made a pretty coherent argument, and reading through this entire thread takes dedication! I'd never considered Aerith as mother figure to Cloud before, but I can see where you're coming from with it. I like your point about Aerith needing her own character points that aren't just love interest or death too.

I don't know if I personally feel the need for her to meet the "real" Cloud (and Johnny being an exaggerated version of him is a funny thought but I'd have to look more into that I think!) But I can see what you mean about it ending her confusion. Thanks for the post!

 

[Graymouse]

This thread is slowly starting to become lively again...

"Winter is coming!"

 

[eleamaya]

I got 13 notifications of like from this thread only, wow!
Welcome, @alpacasweaty I need time to process and reply your post

 

[Ryeleigh]

Uh.......so Im having anxiety and this is super awkward because of the silence but I'll try ..but maybe Ill regret posting this as soon as Im done.

Don't worry. First time posting is always awkward but it gets easier

1) I have never seen or read Fruits Basket but I really like your take on Cloud/Aerith. Personally, I didn't really get the vibe that Cloud is even aware of Aerith as the opposite sex in Remake -- except for that one optional dress scene in which he didn't even recognise it was her lol. I think his feelings for her were something more spiritual but I can't make a detailed argument for this yet.

As for Cloud's mom, I think he remembers her (the Nibelheim/Sephiroth flashback at the beginning of Remake and the dream at Aerith's house) and then probably remembers her better once he, er, unmuddles his head with Tifa? He was something like fifteen/sixteen when Nibelheim happened so he'd have more concrete memories than Tifa at any rate.

3) Oh no, it's not the "what ifs" that keep Clerith going. It's denial, literary incomprehension and spite lol. But (mean) jokes aside, I would love it if True Cloud and Aerith met each other, and for Zack to meet the gang! I don't even care lol. I just want them all to be friends. *fingers crossed*

4) I think Aerith's resolution scene in Remake is actually multilayered. I think she's also saying it to the player instead of strictly to Cloud. I mean, if she was saying it strictly to Cloud she'd come off as insanely arrogant lol. She's spent, what, less than a day with him and he spent most of that time annoyed or focusing on another girl, and then out of the blue she's all, "don't fall in love with me~". Like, c'mon.

In a way, I guess Aerith's character arc is also about letting go of her denials; her denial of her cetra heritage and her denial of Zack's death. It kind of started already when she met Zack and the two of them helped each other to sort of embrace their "non-normalness". (As an aside, I really want a Zerith reunion in the Remake trilogy.)

I read through all this forum since page 90 and I was just itching to say something and so there you go. I don't have a ship per say, but I just think CT and ZA "together" gives the best storyline in my pov.

The bottom line is that Final Fantasy VII is neither an american sitcom nor a bishōjo game. We have games that allow the player to choose their own love interest and Final Fantasy VII really isn't it. Regardless of player choices, Cloud will always start on his journey because of Tifa, find his true self because of Tifa, and express mutual feelings under the Highwind. (And then goes on to live with her and raise kids. Which is like universal in shonen action time skips.)

 

[frosty]

. I mean, if she was saying it strictly to Cloud she'd come off as insanely arrogant lol. She's spent, what, less than a day with him and he spent most of that time annoyed or focusing on another girl, and then out of the blue she's all, "don't fall in love with me~". Like, c'mon.

I think the Clerith interpretation of that scene is that the Aerith in the garden is a dead Aerith. She would have spent 2? weeks with the party by then, Cloud has already fallen in love with her.

Her ability to transcend space time via the lifestream, allows her to go back in time to say her goodbyes to present Cloud and warn him not to love her cos future her knows he has already fallen for her and doesn't want him to feel bad.

Hence her "I'm so glad to have met you cherish every moment blabla" speech.

I'm not saying that's the right interpretation, just the most common one. This theory is also then commonly paired with Cloud will then also travel space time to destroy Sephiroth to bring Aerith back to life, and they will marry and live happily ever after