SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rose Alive]

Spoiler: Rebirth

I'm just worried Rebirth is going to be playing too many angles. Like we know there will be some Cloud and Tifa. But if they lean too hard toward Cloud and Aerith along with Zack and Aerith, it seems odd to me.

Concerning the Gold Saucer, lots of people want a kiss with Cloud with their chosen date. At first I wanted that too, but the more I think about it, I don't want Cloud to kiss Tifa if they're going the equal route. To me, all the dates are canon. We know how long a night can last in Remake. Cloud can totally go on all those dates!

But Cloud almost kissing and/or kissing both girls leaves me with an icky feeling.
Does that make sense?

 

[Stiggie]

The whole "give them both equal attention" thing always feels like bullshit to me.

Aerith is a god damn cetra, the last of her race, the savior of the planet, the one who has to summon meteor, she also has her destined death storyline as well as everything concerning Zack.

Tifa just has her personal relationship with Cloud.

So what are they pretending to equalize here? If Tifa and Aerith get equal attention then as a romance Tifa and Cloud should blow Cloud and Aerith out of the water. If Aerith however gets to be time traveling cetra jesus AND have an equal romance plot as Tifa then they might as well just kill Tifa now since they'd have already murdered her character into irrelevance. The only reason Tifa and Aerith are equal in the OG is because Aerith isn't the love interest.

The whole idea that it should be equal is nonsense anyway, they don't need forced arbitrarily equal attention. They need the attention that is required to best tell the story. I don't need Tifa to get as much attention as Aerith, I just need her to get the attention that is specific to her.

 

[roku]

if you said that on twitter you’d be getting flamed.



I agree with you though.

 

[Rose Alive]

If Tifa and Aerith get equal attention then as a romance Tifa and Cloud should blow Cloud out of the water.

Spoiler: Rebirth

I agree. I know Aerith is going to flirt with Cloud; I watched a little bit of a playthrough of Rebirth, and Aerith grabs Cloud's arm and won't let go while Tifa watches. Cloud is looking at her holding him, seemingly uncomfortable.

But if Tifa is the one in his heart, from a writing perspective, show this to your audience. The lifestream scene will be all the more satisfying because of it.

Trying to make things equally romantic makes no sense if the narrative is Cloud/Tifa and Zack/Aerith.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Tifa is more than a love story, she is more than Cloud.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I’m just as much annoyed at shippers that take every bit of screen time, every bit of promo material, every line of dialogue, every quote from an interview or a guide book as some kind of “confirmation” for or against a ship.

Confirmation of what, exactly? Assuming the remake goes the route of the OG, there is nothing that can be done to change what happens in the story. Which makes this whole ordeal such a waste of time and I hate how much SE plays into it with the ship teasing.

 

[Theozilla]

Besides the issue of Aerith dying being an essential element in the LTD's longevity, there are many people who are just far too entrenched in viewing romantic love solely through the lens of a zero-sum game. The view that having having romantic feelings for more than one person (even at the same time) inherently diminishes the validity and sincerity of said feelings (for either of the targets of affection) is the cause of so much fandom strife. Cloud having romantic feelings for both Aerith and Tifa over the course of the game(s) but ultimately settling down/formally establishing a mutual romantic relationship with Tifa at the end, doesn't negate/ruin the feelings he also had for Aerith

 

[Stiggie]

Tifa is more than a love story, she is more than Cloud.

Yeah, and if this were real life that might matter. But in games importance is measured through impact on story as it relates to the main character and the world. And in that area Tifas unique impact comes from the romantic bond she shares with Cloud.

I might as well say that the lady who runs the orphanage has more importance than just running being "the lady who runs the orphanage that Cloud and Aerith visit", she has a dream, she wants to dance. And sure, that's all true, but when it comes to her importance to FFVII that's all irrelevant, she's the orphanage lady.

Tifas story overlaps with Clouds when it comes to Nibelheim. Her personal story is Clouds personal story, the thing that makes it indispensable is the unique bond they share and what they mean. That gives context and meaning to Clouds actions as well as Tifas, it's what puts her on the level of Aerith in terms of story importance, rather than say a red XIII. Without romance Tifa would still be a great person, but as a character she'd be reduced to just an expositional tool.

I agree that some characters should really have their importance disconnected from what they mean romantically, but that applies to Aerith, not Tifa. And even more so to Cloud, whose bonds with every single woman in the story should not be "they wanna screw each other".

 

[Rose Alive]

The view that having having romantic feelings for more than one person (even at the same time) inherently diminishes the validity and sincerity of said feelings (for either of the targets of affection) is the cause of so much fandom strife.

I agree that's what causes a lot of the strife. But for me, at least once I got older, whenever I played the game, I never saw Cloud develop romantic feelings for Aerith. I believe he loved her, but wasn't in love with her. Aerith clearly had feelings for him, but did she fall in love with him? I'm not sure.
Remake has not shown me that Cloud has feelings for Aerith. It has shown me that Cloud thinks she's pretty.
Perhaps Rebirth will change my mind.

 

[null]

Spoiler: Rebirth: Kalm

If anyone hasn’t already seen the Kalm date, it’s in the video posted in the Rebirth Ch. 2 Spoilers thread (along with the rest of Ch. 2).

 

[Stiggie]

I agree with this. But for me, at least once I got older, whenever I played the game, I never saw Cloud develop romantic feelings for Aerith. I believe he loved her, but wasn't in love with her. Aerith clearly had feelings for him, but did she fall in love with him? I'm not sure.
Remake has not shown me that Cloud has feelings for Aerith. It has shown me that Cloud thinks she's pretty.
Perhaps Rebirth will change my mind.

The view that having having romantic feelings for more than one person (even at the same time) inherently diminishes the validity and sincerity of said feelings (for either of the targets of affection) is the cause of so much fandom strife

The problem I think is that arguably any equivocation is rather insulting to Tifa. Cloud fell in love with Tifa when he was what? 6? Maybe 7 if we're being generous?

If we make a line where each meter represents one week and walk along that line at an average walking speed it would take 10 minutes to walk from the start of where Cloud falls in love with Tifa, to them living together during Advent Children.
After 5:30 he'd meet Aerith.....At 5:31 Aerith dies.

The problem isn't Cloud having a Crush on Aerith sometime during the one or two weeks they know each other. The problem is that 10 minutes vs 1 second thing. If Clouds feelings towards both girls are in any way similar, then that really undermines the connection between Tifa and Cloud.

Just like two boxers fighting where one has had years of training, and the other has had a single explanation about boxing before the game, if they end up being reasonably equal as fighters then they're not actually equally treated, it's clear that one fighter is simply a much better fighter, and the other fighter was just lucky that the other fighter never got the chance to actually work their magic.

If that's how Tifa is treated, I'd rather her character had never existed in the first place.

 

[Rose Alive]

The problem I think is that arguably any equivocation is rather insulting to Tifa. Cloud fell in love with Tifa when he was what? 6? Maybe 7 if we're being generous?

If we make a line where each meter represents one week and walk along that line at an average walking speed it would take 10 minutes to walk from the start of where Cloud falls in love with Tifa, to them living together during Advent Children.
After 5:30 he'd meet Aerith.....At 5:31 Aerith dies.

The problem isn't Cloud having a Crush on Aerith sometime during the one or two weeks they know each other. The problem is that 10 minutes vs 1 second thing. If Clouds feelings towards both girls are in any way similar, then that really undermines the connection between Tifa and Cloud.

Just like two boxers fighting where one has had years of training, and the other has had a single explanation about boxing before the game, if they end up being reasonably equal as fighters then they're not actually equally treated, it's clear that one fighter is simply a much better fighter, and the other fighter was just lucky that the other fighter never got the chance to actually work their magic.

If that's how Tifa is treated, I'd rather her character had never existed in the first place.

Honestly, depending on how they handle the romance and even the dates in Rebirth, it may make me just absolutely not care about Cloud and Tifa in the romantic sense. Which sucks because I am looking forward to the lifestream scene.
But if it's constant romantic scenes with both girls, kissing them both at the GS, etc.... then meh. Tifa deserves better than that, and I'll headcanon her with Johnny.

 

[roku]

There’s a non zero chance the romance isn’t that different from the OG. ZAs in it kinda leans one way but it still isn’t definitive.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Tifa's story importance is much more personal than Aerith's big picture thing, but even setting romance aside, it's just as if not more important to Cloud's narrative, because she is the anchor and key to finding the real Cloud. She acts as his conscious, his guiding light, and his anchor of self. To paraphrase Cloud in the OG, Tifa's view of him is what matters, it's what helps him feel that he's actually himself. It's part of why Sephiroth goes so hard on proving Cloud was "never at" Nibelheim at the time of the incident, even though Sephiroth knows full well he was. He needs to attack Cloud though the one vector that actually matters, how Tifa views him. Tifa makes Cloud believe in himself in multiple senses of the word.

Aerith takes actions that can save the world, but she can't be successful without Cloud there to stop Sephiroth, and Cloud can't do that without Tifa there to remind him of who he is.

Plus she's the romantic interest, but it just sounds so trite when you put it like that.

 

[Rose Alive]

To paraphrase Cloud in the OG, Tifa's view of him is what matters

I really, really hope they have Cloud say this again. It's such an important line.

 

[frosty]

I dunno why people get so worked up about a line that says both girls get equal importance.

Equal is not the same? 6+5+1 is equal to 3+2+7 but the combination of numbers is totally different. The composition of emotional gravity, character motivations, Clouds responses are all going to be different just because they have exactly 22.43 hours of airtime each

Let's face it, the people who are worried about this line a) don't want Cloud and Aerith to kiss (things CANNOT be equal) b) are bitter that there is a high possibility Cloud and Tifa kiss (equal means u MUST give everyone a kiss)

Side note: I'm probably going to get flamed on twitter if i say this, which is why its on tls

Side note 2: i counted the equation above on my fingers for accuracy

 

[birbcode]

I'm just so tired of the LTD at this point I'm finding it hard to care about either pairing. What doesn't sit well with me about "Cloud developing romantic feelings for Aerith and Tifa" is the fact that the story of ff7 happens within the span of 40 days. If Cloud loved Aerith--which is totally possible, I'm not denying this possibility--he was able to move on awfully quick after Aerith's death...

The problem with the highwind scene is regardless of how many affection points you have accumulated up until that point, Cloud stays with Tifa. There's no option to, for example, spend time at Aerith's church. You'd expect him to mourn about Aerith more but nope, that doesn't really happen until AC. And in AC Cloud isn't hit by depression until Denzel gets infected with geostigma and he falls into despair again.

I'm sorry if this may sound harsh but Cloud falling in love with both girls just cheapens...his relationship with Aerith and Tifa.

 

[Stiggie]

I'm just so tired of the LTD at this point I'm finding it hard to care about either pairing. What doesn't sit well with me about "Cloud developing romantic feelings for Aerith and Tifa" is the fact that the story of ff7 happens within the span of 40 days. If Cloud loved Aerith--which is totally possible, I'm not denying this possibility--he was able to move on awfully quick after Aerith's death...

The problem with the highwind scene is regardless of how many affection points you have accumulated up until that point, Cloud stays with Tifa. There's no option to, for example, spend time at Aerith's church. You'd expect him to mourn about Aerith more but nope, that doesn't really happen until AC. And in AC Cloud isn't hit by depression until Denzel gets infected with geostigma and he falls into despair again.

I'm sorry if this may sound harsh but Cloud falling in love with both girls just cheapens...his relationship with Aerith and Tifa.

Conversely, both girls falling in love also cheapens the story. The culmination of FFVII is the reveal that Cloud isn't a legendary 1st class soldier, but essentially just some guy. Cloud isn't the classical hero, that was Zack, Cloud was just a weak flawed human who happened to step up when he needed to because of his feelings for Tifa.

I never liked Sephiroths obsession with Cloud since that cheapened this story arc a bit by making the world revolve around Cloud a bit too much when the brilliance of the OG FFVII is that Cloud was actually relatively unimportant. While he was obsessed with Sephiroth, Sephiroth (jenova) didn't even recognize him when they first met on the boat. I thought this was brilliant, the game sets up this idea in your head of this legendary rivalry, only for you to discover that really this was completely one-sided. Id have preferred it had they leaned into that more and make Zack Sephiroths rival instead of Cloud, rather than Cloud being Sephiroths nemesis. Sephiroth says "I am your everything", but these days it really feels like the reverse.

Both girls (And jesse) falling in love with Cloud suffers from the same problem and would just make this worse, it makes Cloud the traditional boring center of the universe type MC who all girls adore, even above the man they'd been pining over for 5 years. Sure, have Jesse have a crush on Soldier persona Cloud, that makes sense. Sure, have Aerith fall in love with the version of Cloud that reminds her of Zack, that's fine. But don't make it so that Aerith just genuinely loves the real Cloud she's never met to the point that she'd just much rather have his gloomy ass after a week than Zack.

That is not fine, that is pathetic wish fulfillment writing and a stereotypical sexual power fantasy.

 

[Rose Alive]

I'm just so tired of the LTD at this point I'm finding it hard to care about either pairing.

I too have joined the jaded camp, although the fandom has more to do with that rather than the actual characters at this point. The misconceptions of many fans being presented as facts is what gets me.

The most common example is the claim that Cloud's love for both girls is equal. The girls are equally important---Cloud's love for them is  not.

From my observations, it's usually because of this argument:
It's only because Aerith died that Cloud chose Tifa. Had Aerith lived, she would have had just as much a chance as Tifa. After the lifestream scene and Cloud reverts back to himself, why would he choose Aerith over the girl he has adored for most of his life? The one who snapped him out of his mako-induced state in Midgar by just seeing her face? The one who helped piece him back together when he had no idea who he was?

Saying his love is equal for them both shows a misunderstanding of the characters, their arcs, and the story itself. This "everything-is-equal because square can't alienate fans" argument is ridiculous.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm just so tired of the LTD at this point I'm finding it hard to care about either pairing. What doesn't sit well with me about "Cloud developing romantic feelings for Aerith and Tifa" is the fact that the story of ff7 happens within the span of 40 days. If Cloud loved Aerith--which is totally possible, I'm not denying this possibility--he was able to move on awfully quick after Aerith's death...

The problem with the highwind scene is regardless of how many affection points you have accumulated up until that point, Cloud stays with Tifa.

Because the Affection points don't represent anything to do with Cloud. They represent how the four feel about him, not how he feels about them.

Conversely, both girls falling in love also cheapens the story. The culmination of FFVII is the reveal that Cloud isn't a legendary 1st class soldier, but essentially just some guy. Cloud isn't the classical hero, that was Zack, Cloud was just a weak flawed human who happened to step up when he needed to because of his feelings for Tifa.

I never liked Sephiroths obsession with Cloud since that cheapened this story arc a bit by making the world revolve around Cloud a bit too much when the brilliance of the OG FFVII is that Cloud was actually relatively unimportant. While he was obsessed with Sephiroth, Sephiroth (jenova) didn't even recognize him when they first met on the boat. I thought this was brilliant, the game sets up this idea in your head of this legendary rivalry, only for you to discover that really this was completely one-sided. Id have preferred it had they leaned into that more and make Zack Sephiroths rival instead of Cloud, rather than Cloud being Sephiroths nemesis. Sephiroth says "I am your everything", but these days it really feels like the reverse.

Sephiroth being fixated with Cloud was part of the OG as well, though. He was fucking pissed at the nobody who struck him down right before he could begin his reign of conquest. He 'didn't recognize' Cloud because he was explicitly gaslighting him to tear him down.

Both girls (And jesse) falling in love with Cloud suffers from the same problem and would just make this worse, it makes Cloud the traditional boring center of the universe type MC who all girls adore, even above the man they'd been pining over for 5 years. Sure, have Jesse have a crush on Soldier persona Cloud, that makes sense. Sure, have Aerith fall in love with the version of Cloud that reminds her of Zack, that's fine. But don't make it so that Aerith just genuinely loves the real Cloud she's never met to the point that she'd just much rather have his gloomy ass after a week than Zack.

That is not fine, that is pathetic wish fulfillment writing and a stereotypical sexual power fantasy.

I too have joined the jaded camp, although the fandom has more to do with that rather than the actual characters at this point. The misconceptions of many fans being presented as facts is what gets me.

The most common example is the claim that Cloud's love for both girls is equal. The girls are equally important---Cloud's love for them is  not.

From my observations, it's usually because of this argument:
It's only because Aerith died that Cloud chose Tifa. Had Aerith lived, she would have had just as much a chance as Tifa. After the lifestream scene and Cloud reverts back to himself, why would he choose Aerith over the girl he has adored for most of his life? The one who snapped him out of his mako-induced state in Midgar by just seeing her face? The one who helped piece him back together when he had no idea who he was?

Saying his love is equal for them both shows a misunderstanding of the characters, their arcs, and the story itself. This "everything-is-equal because square can't alienate fans" argument is ridiculous.

I've been saying for a very long time now that despite this being a love triangle, we should not take that any point of the triangle is actually in love with the other, explicitly because several Cloud has a fragmented Psyche, Aerith is trying to distract herself from her grief of Zack by trying to move on with Cloud and pointedly ignoring that Cloud is trying to pretend to be.

Let me beat the dead horse again by saying "Disc 1 is a shell game." Cloud is lying to himself and everyone else about who he is, Aerith is lying to herself about Zack and Cloud, Sephiroth is lying to Cloud, Tifa isn't speaking up out of fear of losing Cloud, and the writers are loving it.

 

[null]

Saying his love is equal for them both shows a misunderstanding of the characters, their arcs, and the story itself. This "everything-is-equal because square can't alienate fans" argument is ridiculous.

Yeah (rebirth trailer) Zack holding Aerith and brushing her cheek is identical to Cloud holding Tifa in Crisis Core.

Like, we've had parallels drawn before but not like this. The parallels are now jumping off the page screaming war cries. The parallels are now slapping us to and fro.

The parallels do not fear our puny alienation. The parallels say: go ahead, make your choices players. In the end we'll see who's John Wick.

Tifa is more than a love story, she is more than Cloud.

To be honest, I used to complain about this a lot. Tifa was kind of a two-headed character with Cloud in the OG. We'd get flashes of what she's like when Cloud's not around, but 95% of the time she was 100% pre-occupied with him. She had her Big Damn Hero opportunity to lead the team - cool, we get to be Tifa now! - and then she threw it overboard to sob in Cloud's lap. Laaame.

I'm sure other fans felt likewise and the devs caught wind of the feedback, because Remake is doing a great job finding Tifa (and the others) things to do apart from Cloud. Feels more like an ensemble this time around. Plus there's the prequel novella telling us what Tifa was doing all those years. Much more satisfying imo.

 

[frosty]

Both girls (And jesse) falling in love with Cloud suffers from the same problem and would just make this worse, it makes Cloud the traditional boring center of the universe type MC who all girls adore, even above the man they'd been pining over for 5 years.

Sure, have Jesse have a crush on Soldier persona Cloud, that makes sense. Sure, have Aerith fall in love with the version of Cloud that reminds her of Zack, that's fine.

But don't make it so that Aerith just genuinely loves the real Cloud she's never met to the point that she'd just much rather have his gloomy ass after a week than Zack.

But in 1997 Cloud/Player WAS the blank slate, boring center of the universe main character where all the girls available fell in love with him.

I feel Remake/Rebirth IS trying to balance what is true to the essence of OG (romance all the girls, date mechanics, sexist jokes, steal women's panties yaddayadda) but they are trying to build in modern relevance and already are make little tweaks, like how Jessie "loves" Cloud like in OG, but in Remake you're explicitly told she doesn't take it seriously. Only that one idiot on the internet can't see this.

Die hard Clotis will deny OG Cloud/Aerith were written to be romantic, but they were. The LTD is the basis of FF7. I think SE has already built up that anyone that has a modicum of media literacy will know Aerith will not "love Cloud more than Zack and Zack is going to be cucked" but SE will pay homage to the OG spirit of a budding romance between Cloud and Aerith before she died.

And I think the correct read for Aerith is Zack is going to be depicted as her one big love, the reason for her attraction to Cloud, but she develops a real affection for Cloud, DESPITE his real self being an awkward loser with no game . I don't see how this interpretation is "Cloud is the boring cool Main Character that all the women adore"

And at this point of time, I feel SE is already gearing Cloud/Tifa up to be one of their biggest, greatest romances. It's inevitable by part 3, despite whatever wailing and threats against creators that happens

Everything else is going to be fans just holding on to their own interpretations imho

 

[eleamaya]

Tbh, at first I expect the heroine portion was like this:
Remake: balance
Rebirth: Aerith
Re-???: Tifa

But since the latest interview also state that Rebirth will give the two equal onscreen, I think it's also connected to this Nomura's interview


Btw, before being familiar with FF7, I read this 90s shounen manga and later I found a similarity about the MC who copies his mentor mannerism, struggling to be his legacy, and the ex-girlfriend who copes her sadness through him. They aren't end up together and it's just a small portion of the romance in the story. I detail it here: https://www.tumblr.com/eleamaya/742646034177605632

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah, because in Rebirth, they already mention about Cloud and Tifa that

Spoiler

they were not actually childhood friends/truly close as kids, so they seem to have moved some of the truths later in OG to Rebirth already

I prefer this to be honest because

Spoiler

the whole point is they were not good friends/childhood sweethearts but only got to know each other, truly know each other through the journey of FFVII and beyond, it was more than childhood fantasies and idealised versions of people they didn't really know

 

[Stiggie]

Tbh, at first I expect the heroine portion was like this:
Remake: balance
Rebirth: Aerith
Re-???: Tifa

I assumed the same, since if there is a balance in rebirth, then I have no idea how to maintain that in the third trilogy when we don't have Aerith.
And if she sticks around in the other universe or in the lifestream or something in a similar amount as Tifa is present in the world of the living then I feel that would take away from the feeling of loss.