SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rose Alive]

This is my first post so hello everyone

I personally am not a CT or CA shipper.
I actually identify as a well-written story shipper.
FF7 remake and rebirth in my opinion, explores the relationship between Cloud and Tifa "too deeply" and then moves on to that between Cloud and Aerith, the latter however on a more dreamlike level.

For me it is clear that in rebirth CT is the predominant ship and this can be understood from various factors such as the greater chemistry between the two and all the verbal and non-verbal actions that are created.

As for CA, their relationship is a continuous contrast between what Zack's experience with Aerith is and what unfortunately cannot be.

This reflection of mine was born mainly after loveless;
Aerirh is certainly and visibly emotional after the NPTK performance because it is as if she, contrary to what the singer and the maestro say in the interview, was reflecting the emotions she feels for Zack on Cloud.

Going into detail, NPTK seems somewhat decontextualized to me if you see it as a love ballad for Cloud, this is because:

1) Time factor: Cloud and Aerith have known each other for more or less 10 days.

2) Narrative factor: if by hypothesis both felt a feeling of love understood as sexual love then the story told would be sensationally weak and lacking.

Nobody will take it badly if I say that Aerith is a character built to be perceived as "desperate" because the way I perceived her while playing both titles, she is desperately looking for a love that no longer exists, trying in all ways to emulate it by reflecting it on Cloud.
Cloud himself is a victim of events that he could not control and inevitably finds himself having "more people in him".

The thing that puzzles me the most after rebirth is that they did a massive build up for CT and narratively speaking if they were to decide not to carry it forward to favor CA in part 3 it would be a total failure.

Lastly, it's clear that they tried to give the entire fandom something to talk about and that's fine. The hope is that in part 3 they don't do any bullshit that could ruin one of the most beautiful and profound stories in the gaming scene.

Hi to you, c.lupara. Welcome!

 

[Rin]

Oh, also I had a thought about part 3s theme song being a M/F duet of some kind to symbolize CT meeting again but I'm scared of that becoming a reality because I really can't handle the song discourse. Like damn just listen to the song and shut up! Lmao

 

[luminous03]

Oh, also I had a thought about part 3s theme song being a M/F duet of some kind to symbolize CT meeting again but I'm scared of that becoming a reality because I really can't handle the song discourse. Like damn just listen to the song and shut up! Lmao

TBH, i want the theme to be like you described just because i want to backlash the arguments that uses the last two. It's not nice, but it's gonna be satisfying shove it in the face of certains CA

 

[c.lupara]

Oh, also I had a thought about part 3s theme song being a M/F duet of some kind to symbolize CT meeting again but I'm scared of that becoming a reality because I really can't handle the song discourse. Like damn just listen to the song and shut up! Lmao

I have my own idea about this:
I'm probably wrong but I have the feeling that the theme of the song that will be used for part 3 will be something linked to one of the phrases that struck me most in the OG.

"No words needed between us."






Square I just gave you the title for the song xD

 

[Rin]

This is my first post so hello everyone

I personally am not a CT or CA shipper.
I actually identify as a well-written story shipper.
FF7 remake and rebirth in my opinion, explores the relationship between Cloud and Tifa "too deeply" and then moves on to that between Cloud and Aerith, the latter however on a more dreamlike level.

For me it is clear that in rebirth CT is the predominant ship and this can be understood from various factors such as the greater chemistry between the two and all the verbal and non-verbal actions that are created.

As for CA, their relationship is a continuous contrast between what Zack's experience with Aerith is and what unfortunately cannot be.

This reflection of mine was born mainly after loveless;
Aerirh is certainly and visibly emotional after the NPTK performance because it is as if she, contrary to what the singer and the maestro say in the interview, was reflecting the emotions she feels for Zack on Cloud.

Going into detail, NPTK seems somewhat decontextualized to me if you see it as a love ballad for Cloud, this is because:

1) Time factor: Cloud and Aerith have known each other for more or less 10 days.

2) Narrative factor: if by hypothesis both felt a feeling of love understood as sexual love then the story told would be sensationally weak and lacking.

Nobody will take it badly if I say that Aerith is a character built to be perceived as "desperate" because the way I perceived her while playing both titles, she is desperately looking for a love that no longer exists, trying in all ways to emulate it by reflecting it on Cloud.
Cloud himself is a victim of events that he could not control and inevitably finds himself having "more people in him".

The thing that puzzles me the most after rebirth is that they did a massive build up for CT and narratively speaking if they were to decide not to carry it forward to favor CA in part 3 it would be a total failure.

Lastly, it's clear that they tried to give the entire fandom something to talk about and that's fine. The hope is that in part 3 they don't do any bullshit that could ruin one of the most beautiful and profound stories in the gaming scene.

Welcome!!!
And great insights! I feel similarly about a lot of it. Especially Aerith's "desperation". It's my biggest gripe because I hate seeing her so down bad. I keep yelling at her to stand up cause Cloud really is not cute enough to be dealing with all of this lmaooo.

I have my own idea about this:
I'm probably wrong but I have the feeling that the theme of the song that will be used for part 3 will be something linked to one of the phrases that struck me most in the OG.

"No words needed between us."






Square I just gave you the title for the song xD

love it they should hire us to the marketing team

 

[liuliuliu]

i still think pt3 will be cloud focused song…and people will argue that he sings it to Aerith.

 

[Eerie]

Well Tifa's theme is, IIRC, already a yearning about reuniting with Cloud.

Also, @shady, I do not believe for one second that Remake!Aerith is dead!Aerith - I'll even go further: let's call her CoLW!Aerith, because she is close to her in my mind. In Remake we saw CoLW!Aerith only once and it was in her resolution. Personally, Aerith had most of her future memories until the end of the game, which is why she knew CT was going to become a pair. I am not sure whether she knew or not that she was going to die soon, there are many things that Aerith did not know. I think however that CoLW!Aerith did send her those memories from the future, to prepare her to what was coming. I think that while some things for CoLW!Aerith are off limits, trying to get better prepared is definitely OK.

The problem is that Aerith loses that knowledge at the end of Remake. I think it's something that hurts her deeply and that only Red is able to comprehend, at some level (he lost way less memories than her), which is how they bond in Rebirth. In Rebirth, Aerith acts like her own self: she's got plenty of life, wants to enjoy it at its fullest, hence her wanting to visit, make memories, etc. She's also falling for Cloud, at the very least I think we can all agree that she has growing feelings for him. She sees him with Tifa, she sees their relationship, and because she has lost those future memories and what they entailed (she probably lost what those memories made her think too), she gets misled. She thinks Cloud and Tifa act like this because they're childhood friends - and indeed they talk a lot about their memories when they were kids. She gets envious of their bond, not seeing that indeed the reason why she wants it is because it's the way Zack treated her.

Which leads to the ToA - at the end, when Sephiroth talks about the fake black materia, he says it's a key meant to guide you in those worlds. Aerith manages to get it, and for a time before she gives it to Cloud, she tells him to not worry, that she'll be there for him. I think this is very important because after that, we go to the dream date: Aerith sends Cloud to that world. She needs Holy. And it's CoLW!Aerith that awaits there, and who wants desperately to get her answer. She could never get it, never confess, so she wants to take the opportunity, so to speak. So, in her world, the date happens and we can clearly see that it doesn't go well; at the church, she does understand that he's friendly with her not because he sees her like Zack saw her, but because she is his friend, and he's kind to his friend (note: while not possessed). And so, it's a heartbreak, she says sorry, hugs him and gives Holy back to him. Sephiroth arrives, but I believe that it's at this time that she's called into Remake for her own resolution, she didn't have the time to digest really neither what happened, neither her feelings for both Cloud and Zack. This CoLW!Aerith still is extremely sad so I believe that she has not met Zack again. She's always been extremely torn between the feelings she still had for Zack, and the growing ones she had for Cloud, so Aerith's resolution won't be before she can meet Zack again.

But I'll let you think: all those worlds are reflection of our world and happen to be worlds where Aerith tries to save Zack. All of these worlds are a reflection of her own true desire, as those are "her world".

 

[Stiggie]

But where did anyone say that? That's what I mean. Am I missing something? She definitely acts like she's confused about her feelings but I don't think anyone said she doesn't fancy him at all.

It's the wording and the context.
The context being her trying to have a date with him the way it was with Zack and failing, pretty hard (like last time).
The wording being that when you say "I like you" and then follow that up with the "BUT" of "there is a difference between liking someone and like liking them", then that followup only makes sense if you're trying to make it clear that this isn't that second type of like.

There are ways to follow up saying "I like you" that clarify which type of like you mean, "like like" essentially being one step further than like. Because of this any follow-up sentence that essentially has a "but" in there indicates a stopping of the line of thought, it's a "here and no further". While any type of "AND" response essentially means that it's not just like, but goes further to "like like".

It's not that language doesn't allow you to go, "I like you, AND its the normal type of like, not the special kind". But that immediately sounds wrong, it's a system shock almost, no one talks like that. Any continuation that essentially revolves around a "but" is an indication that what is being clarified here is that while you do like the person, that it's not the "like like" variety.

Aeriths response was very much in the "but" category, you don't bring up the fact that there are two kinds of likings like that unless you want to clarify you don't mean the second one, except in some very specific, very different context.

 

[Stiggie]

i still think pt3 will be cloud focused song…and people will argue that he sings it to Aerith.

It will be a Tifa song, and people will claim it's Tifa singing about Cloud and Aeriths love for each other XD

 

[Sacky]

I have my own idea about this:
I'm probably wrong but I have the feeling that the theme of the song that will be used for part 3 will be something linked to one of the phrases that struck me most in the OG.

"No words needed between us."






Square I just gave you the title for the song xD

I always really like to see a non shippers perspective so welcome . I'm always story over shipping but I do have my bias for Cloti so was wondering if my views were just biased. But I've looked over this story from multiple angles and my conclusion is still on a narrative point. It has been so long since I've seen a videogame set up a couple being Tifa and Cloud this clearly if at all ever. This game has almost every romantic trope known in fiction for these two throughout the game. The game even starts with angst between them. With the villains main goal for most of the game to sever the bond between them. The real thing I noticed after looking at other playthroughs and the other dates. Is the difference in animations and tone of voice and even dialogue that Cloud has with Tifa compared to other characters. The biggest example I see is in the framing of shots with Cloud and Tifa. In almost every time they are on screen they are framed beside each other, walking together, fighting side by side in sync with each other. Or the camera focuses on tifas reactions or then both finding a way to comfort each other. This is all in a part of the story where Tifa and Cloud was never meant to be the main focus. However with this being part 2 of 3 this amount of set up is going to lead to a lot of interesting things for part 3

 

[Empyrea]

It will be a Tifa song, and people will claim it's Tifa singing about Cloud and Aeriths love for each other XD

I hate that I can see this actually happening...

 

[Rin]

It will be a Tifa song, and people will claim it's Tifa singing about Cloud and Aeriths love for each other XD

This is it. This is the one lmaooo

 

[Sacky]

This is it. This is the one lmaooo

Let them cope at that point the games a video-game not a song for them unfortunately

 

[starcape91]

A duet would be lovely. Something that can be about both Cloud and Tifa and Aerith and Zack. Something about reuniting. Zack and Aerith in another world/lifestream, and Tifa and real!Cloud.

Anyone think that part 3 could still be called Reunion even though they gave that subtitle to Crisis Core?

 

[AncientGrimoire]

It will be a Tifa song, and people will claim it's Tifa singing about Cloud and Aeriths love for each other XD

Honestly I can see this happening.

Not equating the two by any means, but I’ve accepted that if many millions of people can overlook the categorical evidence that several of their politicians are criminals, and vote for them again and again after the fact, then it doesn’t matter how far the developers go confirming Cloud and Tifa’s feelings, thousands of other fans will outright deny it and find a way to make it about Aerith. The flat earthers of FFVII if you will.

You can see this happening on the other side too, to be very fair to all sides of the debate. There are plenty that I saw before deleting Twitter who make out Cloud hates Aerith, and she’s been called all sorts of terrible things along the lines of stealing someone else’s man. They can be just as fervent in their ignorance of the story as presented, much like those who pretend Tifa and Zack don’t exist.

If they could put aside Final Fantasy VII ship wars for a second they’d probably find they would get on quite well lol

 

[Rin]

You can see this happening on the other side too, to be very fair to all sides of the debate. There are plenty that I saw before deleting Twitter who make out Cloud hates Aerith, and she’s been called all sorts of terrible things along the lines of stealing someone else’s man. They can be just as fervent in their ignorance of the story as presented, much like those who pretend Tifa and Zack don’t exist.

This annoys me soooo much. I feel like this forum has been a godsend for me because it's so hard to find good, honest takes on Twitter. I love Aerith and Tifa equally, but it's impossible to interact with their fans unless they're non-shippers or AerTi shippers. The amount of CT fans who claim Aerith is a horrible person that Cloud hates blablabla drives me insane. They say she's pushy, doesn't respect his boundaries, etc. and there is some truth to that but it's not as dramatic as they make it sound.

The devs themselves said that while Cloud tries to keep distance between himself and Aerith, he can't bring himself to stop her from closing the gap. She's someone he cares about deeply, and the same way CA fans need to accept that Cloud is in love with Tifa, CT fans need to accept that Cloud loves Aerith. He may not be in love with her, but he loves her all the same.

 

[starcape91]

Also with the angst we got at the end of Rebirth, as well as the inevitable angst coming in Part 3, after the Lifestream Sequence we better get some hopeful stuff. I know Meteor has been summoned at this point and the world feels like it's ending, but in the OG there was still a sense of hope and happiness that we finally had the real Cloud while we go about doing things like the submarine, rocket, Wutai and the return to Midgar.

 

[Stiggie]

This annoys me soooo much. I feel like this forum has been a godsend for me because it's so hard to find good, honest takes on Twitter. I love Aerith and Tifa equally, but it's impossible to interact with their fans unless they're non-shippers or AerTi shippers. The amount of CT fans who claim Aerith is a horrible person that Cloud hates blablabla drives me insane. They say she's pushy, doesn't respect his boundaries, etc. and there is some truth to that but it's not as dramatic as they make it sound.

The devs themselves said that while Cloud tries to keep distance between himself and Aerith, he can't bring himself to stop her from closing the gap. She's someone he cares about deeply, and the same way CA fans need to accept that Cloud is in love with Tifa, CT fans need to accept that Cloud loves Aerith. He may not be in love with her, but he loves her all the same.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Aerith either at the moment tbh, I do think the stuff she does is messed up, the extent being mostly dependent on whether she's seriously trying to romance Cloud or just trying to sort out her feelings for Zack. If we take the HA Aerith route, if Aerith and Tifa have been confiding in each other, and Aerith knows the history of Tifa and Cloud, and even sees the almost kiss in Gongaga, then her trying to make a move on Cloud does make her a horrible person in my eyes, sorry. I don't like it when people are overly hateful towards a character that doesn't deserve it but I think it's completely fair to be sort of disgusted by that. That having been said the vitriol coming from some people is on another level. And the idea that just because we don't think her actions are ok, that therefore Cloud despises her, is absurd. Cloud clearly cares for her as he does for all his companions, even if they do annoy him at times.

But I think it's fair to say that a girl who befriends you, discovers you have feelings for a guy you've known since childhood and have uniquely shared trauma with, discovers the guy has feelings for you as well, a girl who sees you are growing closer and almost kissing, a girl who YOU are helping trying to find the truth about her lost love. If that girl then tries to make a move on the guy you love, not even because she's deeply in love with him, but because she isn't sure whether she likes him since he reminds her of her ex and is now using him to kinda sort through her feelings, that girl would be the worst kind of "friend" IMO, with friends like that who needs enemies.
I think it's completely fair for people to be vehemently against that, they're right, that would make Aerith an awful character and person, which doesn't just hurt Aerith, but hurts the story, so a level of anger is warranted I think. It's not even Aerith being a bad person, at least she's not supposed to be written to be one, but a poorly written nice Aerith can be as bad as a well written horrible Aerith.

 

[Rin]

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Aerith either at the moment tbh, I do think the stuff she does is messed up, the extent being mostly dependent on whether she's seriously trying to romance Cloud or just trying to sort out her feelings for Zack. If we take the HA Aerith route, if Aerith and Tifa have been confiding in each other, and Aerith knows the history of Tifa and Cloud, and even sees the almost kiss in Gongaga, then her trying to make a move on Cloud does make her a horrible person in my eyes, sorry. I don't like it when people are overly hateful towards a character that doesn't deserve it but I think it's completely fair to be sort of disgusted by that. That having been said the vitriol coming from some people is on another level. And the idea that just because we don't think her actions are ok, that therefore Cloud despises her, is absurd. Cloud clearly cares for her as he does for all his companions, even if they do annoy him at times.

Exactly! Like I don't love the way she's been written in Rebirth either, but to say that she's the worst person ever and that Cloud hates her is just too much. We can criticize some of her actions & the way the devs have chosen to write her without leaning into misogyny and being downright weird about it.

 

[starcape91]

Exactly! Like I don't love the way she's been written in Rebirth either, but to say that she's the worst person ever and that Cloud hates her is just too much. We can criticize some of her actions & the way the devs have chosen to write her without leaning into misogyny and being downright weird about it.

I guess some of the hardcore CA’s are posting Cloud shoving Tifa in The Temple of the Ancients over and over again with the cry/laugh emoji. Like it’s a gotcha moment or something. And saying that only Aerith can snap Cloud out of it. Same with Zack apparently being heartbroken when Marlene tells him casually that Aerith likes Cloud.

 

[Empyrea]

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Aerith either at the moment tbh, I do think the stuff she does is messed up, the extent being mostly dependent on whether she's seriously trying to romance Cloud or just trying to sort out her feelings for Zack. If we take the HA Aerith route, if Aerith and Tifa have been confiding in each other, and Aerith knows the history of Tifa and Cloud, and even sees the almost kiss in Gongaga, then her trying to make a move on Cloud does make her a horrible person in my eyes, sorry. I don't like it when people are overly hateful towards a character that doesn't deserve it but I think it's completely fair to be sort of disgusted by that. That having been said the vitriol coming from some people is on another level. And the idea that just because we don't think her actions are ok, that therefore Cloud despises her, is absurd. Cloud clearly cares for her as he does for all his companions, even if they do annoy him at times.

But I think it's fair to say that a girl who befriends you, discovers you have feelings for a guy you've known since childhood and have uniquely shared trauma with, discovers the guy has feelings for you as well, a girl who sees you are growing closer and almost kissing, a girl who YOU are helping trying to find the truth about her lost love. If that girl then tries to make a move on the guy you love, not even because she's deeply in love with him, but because she isn't sure whether she likes him since he reminds her of her ex and is now using him to kinda sort through his feelings, that girl would be the worst kind of friend IMO.
I think it's completely fair for people to be vehemently against that, they're right, that would make Aerith an awful character and person, which doesn't just hurt Aerith, but hurts the story, so a level of anger is warranted I think.

So just to leave out names, I follow the tumblr of a rather extreme Cloti -- since Remake came out, actually. But I decided to take the plunge and start interacting with people here when said poster started calling Cloud an emotional cheater for interlocking fingers with Aerith in their HA GS date.

I understand being against some of the stuff Aerith does here, but at the same time, the level of vitriol towards Aerith got a little unnerving. The people here seemed chill and I needed more balanced takes cause it's not like I hate Aerith (I mean, I'm a heavy AerTi shipper, after all), and while she's not the best, she's also very far from being the worst (that would be Hojo, thank you very much). Just like Tifa, Aerith also doesn't deserve any of the hate she gets.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I guess some of the hardcore CA’s are posting Cloud shoving Tifa in The Temple of the Ancients over and over again with the cry/laugh emoji. Like it’s a gotcha moment or something. Same with Zack apparently being heartbroken when Marlene tells him casually that Aerith likes Cloud.

The fact they are seeing these scenes as something worth celebrating says all you need to know.

 

[Stiggie]

So just to leave out names, I follow the tumblr of a rather extreme Cloti -- since Remake came out, actually. But I decided to take the plunge and start interacting with people here when said poster started calling Cloud an emotional cheater for interlocking fingers with Aerith in their HA GS date.

I understand being against some of the stuff Aerith does here, but at the same time, the level of vitriol towards Aerith got a little unnerving. The people here seemed chill and I needed more balanced takes cause it's not like I hate Aerith (I mean, I'm a heavy AerTi shipper, after all), and while she's not the best, she's also very far from being the worst (that would be Hojo, thank you very much). Just like Tifa, Aerith also doesn't deserve any of the hate she gets.

Heh, Silverwield, yeah, she has some emotional issues I think.
Here is the thing with any group of people once it gets large enough.
Every group has outliers on the bell curve, regardless of the group these people are unhealthily extreme by definition. But usually the most extreme are also the most dedicated for obvious reasons, and they're the ones who stand out most. So naturally they're the ones who rise to prominence.
She does have good posts and information at times, as long as you take it with a grain of salt because they're obviously eager to be too accepting on one side and dismissive on the other.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Aerith either at the moment tbh, I do think the stuff she does is messed up, the extent being mostly dependent on whether she's seriously trying to romance Cloud or just trying to sort out her feelings for Zack. If we take the HA Aerith route, if Aerith and Tifa have been confiding in each other, and Aerith knows the history of Tifa and Cloud, and even sees the almost kiss in Gongaga, then her trying to make a move on Cloud does make her a horrible person in my eyes, sorry. I don't like it when people are overly hateful towards a character that doesn't deserve it but I think it's completely fair to be sort of disgusted by that. That having been said the vitriol coming from some people is on another level. And the idea that just because we don't think her actions are ok, that therefore Cloud despises her, is absurd. Cloud clearly cares for her as he does for all his companions, even if they do annoy him at times.

But I think it's fair to say that a girl who befriends you, discovers you have feelings for a guy you've known since childhood and have uniquely shared trauma with, discovers the guy has feelings for you as well, a girl who sees you are growing closer and almost kissing, a girl who YOU are helping trying to find the truth about her lost love. If that girl then tries to make a move on the guy you love, not even because she's deeply in love with him, but because she isn't sure whether she likes him since he reminds her of her ex and is now using him to kinda sort through her feelings, that girl would be the worst kind of "friend" IMO, with friends like that who needs enemies.
I think it's completely fair for people to be vehemently against that, they're right, that would make Aerith an awful character and person, which doesn't just hurt Aerith, but hurts the story, so a level of anger is warranted I think. It's not even Aerith being a bad person, at least she's not supposed to be written to be one, but a poorly written nice Aerith can be as bad as a well written horrible Aerith.

I think for a LOT of CT this is exactly the problem. Honestly I'm also so-so on this Aerith, but I try to distance myself and see her good side but... yeah, 80% of her arc if not more is about romance, whether Zack or Cloud, so it's kinda hard. A LOT of CT fans are women who know these kind of women that Aerith is and tbh it's experience that speaks in how much some can dislike her. I think there was not a lot to do since her arc was like this in the OG, and Nojima must be aware but it kind of makes her a really bad friend when we know it's not the truth. This discrepancy really hurts Aerith's character, IMHO, so I hope she'll be redeemed by p3.

 

[Stiggie]

I think for a LOT of CT this is exactly the problem. Honestly I'm also so-so on this Aerith, but I try to distance myself and see her good side but... yeah, 80% of her arc if not more is about romance, whether Zack or Cloud, so it's kinda hard. A LOT of CT fans are women who know these kind of women that Aerith is and tbh it's experience that speaks in how much some can dislike her. I think there was not a lot to do since her arc was like this in the OG, and Nojima must be aware but it kind of makes her a really bad friend when we know it's not the truth. This discrepancy really hurts Aerith's character, IMHO, so I hope she'll be redeemed by p3.

That's kind of what I've been saying, about why I just can't stand Clerith as a concept.
No character is hurt more by Clerith than Aerith is. Everytime SE tries to pander to that ship Aeriths character is assassinated just a little bit more.

Concerning Clotis I also think a part of it is a sort of revenge schadenfreude. Back in 1997 arguing that Tifa was the genuine love interest was doable but you'd be in the minority. Aerith was generally seen as the all-round heroine of the story. So there is a lot of "told you so" feelings from Clotis who had to bear the brunt of being told that their ship was cracked and all in their heads who now that they feel they've been proven right think it's fair to go "well, I was right, so now YOU shut up", and who feel annoyed that now suddenly the opposite side is preaching "it's all interpretation" when that was never their stance when they were "in power" as it were.