SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
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- Grim
There’s unfortunately a difference between an unintended misunderstanding, which can be addressed by the author like you mentioned, and then accepted.
Then there is wilful misunderstanding, or rather a selective approach to the story of FFVII, where characters and relationships are ignored, certain scenes are excised completely or not considered canon (optional)
And this is playing out still after Rebirth, despite all the efforts of the developers and writers to not leave things open to interpretation as much as the original did, there is a determined reading of everything Final Fantasy VII as being wholly and completely Cloud and Aerith centric
Like there is a reason why Dirge of Cerberus will likely never be mentioned in those circles (asides from you know the game being ass)
Sacky
Pro Adventurer
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- SackyBoy
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Rin
Pro Adventurer
This is just a personal thing for me, but I don't particularly like the idea of relationships where one person feels overly self-conscious or awkward the way Cloud is deliberately written to be with Aerith. It's cute to see Cloud be like, "oh my god, pretty girl what do I say?" but its not a sustainable dynamic. You either need to show that Cloud gets more comfortable around Aerith and takes initiative in pursuing her romantically if that's what he really wants OR he gets more comfortable bc he realizes that being around pretty girls isn't that big of a deal.
If anyone did the Chapter 8 'date' w/ Yuffie, then you'll realize that they're writing the latter. Yuffie sees the pic of Jessie in Event Square and when Cloud says she was a friend, Yuffie tells him it's like he's destined to be surrounded by super hot chicks and does a little pose which makes Cloud laugh. Yuffie then runs off ahead and says, "Come along, babe magnet!" and he laughs again and says he's coming. So, yeah, Cloud being self-conscious around Aerith at first because she's pretty is fine but that doesn't all of a sudden mean they're deeply in love or that he's interested in pursuing a relationship.
If anyone did the Chapter 8 'date' w/ Yuffie, then you'll realize that they're writing the latter. Yuffie sees the pic of Jessie in Event Square and when Cloud says she was a friend, Yuffie tells him it's like he's destined to be surrounded by super hot chicks and does a little pose which makes Cloud laugh. Yuffie then runs off ahead and says, "Come along, babe magnet!" and he laughs again and says he's coming. So, yeah, Cloud being self-conscious around Aerith at first because she's pretty is fine but that doesn't all of a sudden mean they're deeply in love or that he's interested in pursuing a relationship.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Yesssssss that one:
And when they decided to kill the Cetra, they kept Tifa's name and design and created a new one for the Cetra Aerith, also remodeling a new "brother" Sephiroth to look like her lol. Tifa was affected to her new role that had been split from earlier, the lover one who helps the hero in his intimate story and remain by his side until the end.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, open to interpretation can’t really be used anymore.
You can make the argument that it’s up the player, sure…. But it kinda falls apart since Aerith doesn’t get an “equal” date.
The two scenes are optional, sure. But Cloud acts differently in each because he’s a set character.
Plus, if Tifa’s can be hand-waved as optional. So can Aerith’s.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
This is why they're battling out there to prove their date is the canon one.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Oh, for the love of-
I thought these were “optional!”
So it’s canon if Aerith’s involved but not Tifa? WTF.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yes, now I remember. So when they decided to kill the Cetra off, they separated them into two?
In rebirth Tifa straight up says she tried asking him to join them I think, so hopefully that will be enough to diminish that myth at least a bit.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
You get it!
Yup. Tifa had the Cetra role at first, very obviously. When the devs say they created Aerith first, they really mean "the Cetra" because she was named Tifa (very obviously) and had Tifa's looks. So if they hadn't decided to kill her, Aerith would not exist because there wouldn't be the need of another girl.
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
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- Grim
Less because they love Aerith’s date that much, and more so they can invalidate Tifa’s tbh
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I suppose that makes sense.
They’d be singing a different tune if both dates got a kiss or if Aerith got a kiss and CT interlocked hands.
Rin
Pro Adventurer
This is what makes me laugh the most, all the anti-CT talking points that they've used for years gets flat out debunked by Nojima every time. I have a running list of all the things they've said and all the ways he's addressed them in the last 4 years. It's so funny and it's definitely because he sees the comments and is like "No" because the debunking is so specifically curated to their exact claims.
Hellenic
Pro Adventurer
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- Hellenic
I've always found this take probably among the weirdest the extremists on that side say. I'd genuinely love to see a write up from their perspective explaining exactly how any of that stuff between Cloud and Tifa give sibling vibes. I assume most people don't wanna make out with their siblings afterall.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Or raise a drink to them and say “Beautiful” in an obvious attempt at flirting.
I think I saw one of them use the “fist bump” they have right before the QB competition to say they’re like best friends or siblings. As if to imply… that your romantic partner can’t also be your best friend.
I
So using this fake surprise that people would not share this viewpoint to somehow project into the ether that their interpretation is the commonly accepted reality in the hope that others will see that and go "Oh, I suppose that really is the commonly accepted reality then, otherwise why would they be so surprised?"
It's zeitgeist manipulation.
I genuinely believe they don't actually believe that crap. I feel like a lot of Cleriths deep down kinda realize that they've lost the argument, but they're trying this thing where if they can just act hard enough as though "Oh, I never really saw them as romantic, I always thought it was pretty obvious CLoud and Tifa were just friends" is the natural interpretation, that that somehow makes it so.
So using this fake surprise that people would not share this viewpoint to somehow project into the ether that their interpretation is the commonly accepted reality in the hope that others will see that and go "Oh, I suppose that really is the commonly accepted reality then, otherwise why would they be so surprised?"
It's zeitgeist manipulation.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
I find the which date is "canon" debate so silly (second only to song lyrics discourse, lol) because if the devs wanted a specific date to be canon, they obviously wouldn't have made said scene optional/variable, as they have for like 99% of the game? Like if your ship can't co-exist with certain "optional" scenes existing, maybe ya need to rethink it?
I think it's interesting that both Tifa and Aerith's dates have the flashback with them talking about Zack. That is probably the most plotty/lore-relevant part of the dates in general, and the devs probably expect most people to go for either Tifa or Aerith the first time around, so this way they make sure most players will have seen that by the end of their first play through. Whereas in the OG, Aerith's is really the only one with any story/lore-related content.
That being said, I still find it a baffling choice to lock a major turning point in Aerith's character arc behind optional scenes. Though I guess you can argue that NPTK is basically just the song version of what Aerith tries to tell Cloud on the gondola, but I think that is the devs having way too much faith in this particular fandom being able to put the puzzle pieces together lol
I think it's interesting that both Tifa and Aerith's dates have the flashback with them talking about Zack. That is probably the most plotty/lore-relevant part of the dates in general, and the devs probably expect most people to go for either Tifa or Aerith the first time around, so this way they make sure most players will have seen that by the end of their first play through. Whereas in the OG, Aerith's is really the only one with any story/lore-related content.
That being said, I still find it a baffling choice to lock a major turning point in Aerith's character arc behind optional scenes. Though I guess you can argue that NPTK is basically just the song version of what Aerith tries to tell Cloud on the gondola, but I think that is the devs having way too much faith in this particular fandom being able to put the puzzle pieces together lol
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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- Tim, Ryu
It's "Rules for thee but not for me." Always has been. It's not about understanding the story, but about winning.
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
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- Grim
At the end of the day the Ultimania’s wouldn’t need to exist if the majority of the audience in the fandom were able to put everything together themselves
Maidenofwar
They/Them
This is because extremists of CT say the same thing. Since some saw Cloud and Aerith being called siblings they do the same with Cloud and Tifa. Interchange mother/siblings/cousins/etc here.
Sacky
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- SackyBoy
Some of that is on the developers themselves. Like this games ending, everyone is going to need an ultimania
to understand anything. The ultimanias should give you extra knowledge not explain entire plots thats just a failure of storytelling
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I think the issue is CT seems to be pretty firmly established. The problem is… we need these Ultimanias in order to refute CA’s because they will always insist on ‘reasonable doubt’.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I don’t agree with that either. There are clear romantic implications with CA in the first half of OG. But I’ve always taken it as a red herring one. But that means it still existed.
Rin
Pro Adventurer
To be honest, this mostly came from Cloud's motion cap actor because when he was livestreaming himself playing Remake last year, he kept calling Aerith "onee-chan" and saying she has a big sister vibe w/ Cloud. Anytime Aerith would chide Cloud or drag him around etc., he'd call her big sister lol.
CTs took that and ran w/ it even though they shouldn't have lol
Honestly, we don't need the ultimanias because then they just pretend they can't read when they're presented with direct quotes from it anyway. It's just better to ignore them altogether.