SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[AncientGrimoire]

That sounds like bollocks tbh.

It’s almost as if they’re attributing Tifa’s influence on Cloud as Aerith’s influence.

I wonder if CA fans wish the roles were reversed. Tifa would be the Ancient, Aerith the childhood friend with the promise.

That’s exactly what’s happening though, and this isn’t the first time.

There is only one heroine in Final Fantasy VII to them, and all the growth and development Cloud shows as a character due to his relationship with Tifa is actually because of Aerith.

Aerith had a huge part in shaping Cloud’s growth, and helping him develop in the story. But that is unique to their relationship, and is independent of Tifa, much how Tifa’s influence on Cloud is able to be independent of Aerith’s.

Anytime there is an acknowledgment of Tifa’s influence from this particularly extreme subset of the fandom, or that she is tied to Cloud’s past, it’s mentioned that she bullied him, they didn’t like each other, Cloud left Nibelheim to get away from Tifa etc.

Goalpost moving so fast it gives you whiplash

 

[GamerSkull]

That’s exactly what’s happening though, and this isn’t the first time.

There is only one heroine in Final Fantasy VII to them, and all the growth and development Cloud shows as a character due to his relationship with Tifa is actually because of Aerith.

Anytime there is an acknowledgment of Tifa’s influence, or that she is tied to Cloud’s past, it’s mentioned that she bullied him, they didn’t like each other, Cloud left Nibelheim to get away from Tifa etc.

Goalpost moving so fast it gives you whiplash

The problem is, Nojima has gone through lengths to make sure that misunderstanding is debunked though. He made sure to in ToTP. Even in Rebirth, there is deniability on Tifa’s part. She was either oblivious to it…. or never took part in it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That’s exactly what’s happening though, and this isn’t the first time.

There is only one heroine in Final Fantasy VII to them, and all the growth and development Cloud shows as a character due to his relationship with Tifa is actually because of Aerith.

Anytime there is an acknowledgment of Tifa’s influence, or that she is tied to Cloud’s past, it’s mentioned that she bullied him, they didn’t like each other, Cloud left Nibelheim to get away from Tifa etc.

Goalpost moving so fast it gives you whiplash

I wonder how much their brains would explode if you pointed out that contrary to the common statement, Tifa existed in development before Aerith did.

 

[GamerSkull]

I wonder how much their brains would explode if you pointed out that contrary to the common statement, Tifa existed in development before Aerith did.

Yeah, as I recall it… they were one single character that got essentially split into two, right?

 

[Rin]

Don't we have an explicit statement that it's Tifa that brings out real Cloud? One of the devs said as much back when Remake was released.

We do! It's in the Rebirth Ultimania where it's stated that Real Cloud comes out with Tifa, while SOLDIER Cloud comes out more with Jessie and Aerith because they tend to feed that part of his ego vs. Tifa who genuinely doesn't like his SOLDIER persona.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, as I recall it… they were one single character that got essentially split into two, right?

Yeah. Tifa was sister to Sephiroth who looked like Vincent, so we're talking really early in the development process.

 

[GamerSkull]

We do! It's in the Rebirth Ultimania where it's stated that Real Cloud comes out with Tifa, while SOLDIER Cloud comes out more with Jessie and Aerith because they tend to feed that part of his ego vs. Tifa who genuinely doesn't like his SOLDIER persona.

Yeah, she has on several occasions, stated that it scares her.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

The problem is, Nojima has gone through lengths to make sure that misunderstanding is debunked though. He made sure to in ToTP. Even in Rebirth, there is deniability on Tifa’s part. She was either oblivious to it…. or never took part in it.

There’s unfortunately a difference between an unintended misunderstanding, which can be addressed by the author like you mentioned, and then accepted.

Then there is wilful misunderstanding, or rather a selective approach to the story of FFVII, where characters and relationships are ignored, certain scenes are excised completely or not considered canon (optional)

And this is playing out still after Rebirth, despite all the efforts of the developers and writers to not leave things open to interpretation as much as the original did, there is a determined reading of everything Final Fantasy VII as being wholly and completely Cloud and Aerith centric

Like there is a reason why Dirge of Cerberus will likely never be mentioned in those circles (asides from you know the game being ass)

 

[Sacky]

Don't we have an explicit statement that it's Tifa that brings out real Cloud? One of the devs said as much back when Remake was released.

 

[Rin]

This is just a personal thing for me, but I don't particularly like the idea of relationships where one person feels overly self-conscious or awkward the way Cloud is deliberately written to be with Aerith. It's cute to see Cloud be like, "oh my god, pretty girl what do I say?" but its not a sustainable dynamic. You either need to show that Cloud gets more comfortable around Aerith and takes initiative in pursuing her romantically if that's what he really wants OR he gets more comfortable bc he realizes that being around pretty girls isn't that big of a deal.

If anyone did the Chapter 8 'date' w/ Yuffie, then you'll realize that they're writing the latter. Yuffie sees the pic of Jessie in Event Square and when Cloud says she was a friend, Yuffie tells him it's like he's destined to be surrounded by super hot chicks and does a little pose which makes Cloud laugh. Yuffie then runs off ahead and says, "Come along, babe magnet!" and he laughs again and says he's coming. So, yeah, Cloud being self-conscious around Aerith at first because she's pretty is fine but that doesn't all of a sudden mean they're deeply in love or that he's interested in pursuing a relationship.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah. Tifa was sister to Sephiroth who looked like Vincent, so we're talking really early in the development process.

Yesssssss that one:



And when they decided to kill the Cetra, they kept Tifa's name and design and created a new one for the Cetra Aerith, also remodeling a new "brother" Sephiroth to look like her lol. Tifa was affected to her new role that had been split from earlier, the lover one who helps the hero in his intimate story and remain by his side until the end.

 

[GamerSkull]

There’s unfortunately a difference between an unintended misunderstanding, which can be addressed by the author like you mentioned, and then accepted.

Then there is wilful misunderstanding, or rather a selective approach to the story of FFVII, where characters and relationships are ignored, certain scenes are excised completely or not considered canon (optional)

And this is playing out still after Rebirth, despite all the efforts of the developers and writers to not leave things open to interpretation as much as the original did, there is a determined reading of everything Final Fantasy VII as being wholly and completely Cloud and Aerith centric

Like there is a reason why Dirge of Cerberus will likely never be mentioned in those circles (asides from you know the game being ass)

Yeah, open to interpretation can’t really be used anymore.

You can make the argument that it’s up the player, sure…. But it kinda falls apart since Aerith doesn’t get an “equal” date.

The two scenes are optional, sure. But Cloud acts differently in each because he’s a set character.

Plus, if Tifa’s can be hand-waved as optional. So can Aerith’s.

 

[Eerie]

Plus, if Tifa’s can be hand-waved as optional. So can Aerith’s.

This is why they're battling out there to prove their date is the canon one.

 

[GamerSkull]

This is why they're battling out there to prove their date is the canon one.

Oh, for the love of-

I thought these were “optional!”

So it’s canon if Aerith’s involved but not Tifa? WTF.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yesssssss that one:

View attachment 14972

And when they decided to kill the Cetra, they kept Tifa's name and design and created a new one for the Cetra Aerith, also remodeling a new "brother" Sephiroth to look like her lol. Tifa was affected to her new role that had been split from earlier, the lover one who helps the hero in his intimate story and remain by his side until the end.

Yes, now I remember. So when they decided to kill the Cetra off, they separated them into two?

 

[Stiggie]

The problem is, Nojima has gone through lengths to make sure that misunderstanding is debunked though. He made sure to in ToTP. Even in Rebirth, there is deniability on Tifa’s part. She was either oblivious to it…. or never took part in it.

In rebirth Tifa straight up says she tried asking him to join them I think, so hopefully that will be enough to diminish that myth at least a bit.

 

[Eerie]

Oh, for the love of-

I thought these were “optional!”

So it’s canon if Aerith’s involved but not Tifa? WTF.

You get it!

Yes, now I remember. So when they decided to kill the Cetra off, they separated them into two?

Yup. Tifa had the Cetra role at first, very obviously. When the devs say they created Aerith first, they really mean "the Cetra" because she was named Tifa (very obviously) and had Tifa's looks. So if they hadn't decided to kill her, Aerith would not exist because there wouldn't be the need of another girl.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

This is why they're battling out there to prove their date is the canon one.

Less because they love Aerith’s date that much, and more so they can invalidate Tifa’s tbh

 

[GamerSkull]

Less because they love Aerith’s date that much, and more so they can invalidate Tifa’s tbh

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense.

They’d be singing a different tune if both dates got a kiss or if Aerith got a kiss and CT interlocked hands.

 

[Rin]

In rebirth Tifa straight up says she tried asking him to join them I think, so hopefully that will be enough to diminish that myth at least a bit.

This is what makes me laugh the most, all the anti-CT talking points that they've used for years gets flat out debunked by Nojima every time. I have a running list of all the things they've said and all the ways he's addressed them in the last 4 years. It's so funny and it's definitely because he sees the comments and is like "No" because the debunking is so specifically curated to their exact claims.

 

[Hellenic]

Or that Tifa’s bond with Cloud is sisterly, which I don’t really understand but whatever.

I've always found this take probably among the weirdest the extremists on that side say. I'd genuinely love to see a write up from their perspective explaining exactly how any of that stuff between Cloud and Tifa give sibling vibes. I assume most people don't wanna make out with their siblings afterall.

 

[GamerSkull]

I've always found this take probably among the weirdest the extremists on that side say. I'd genuinely love to see a write up from their perspective explaining exactly how any of that stuff between Cloud and Tifa give sibling vibes. I assume most people don't wanna make out with their siblings afterall.

Or raise a drink to them and say “Beautiful” in an obvious attempt at flirting.

I think I saw one of them use the “fist bump” they have right before the QB competition to say they’re like best friends or siblings. As if to imply… that your romantic partner can’t also be your best friend.

 

[Stiggie]

I

I've always found this take probably among the weirdest the extremists on that side say. I'd genuinely love to see a write up from their perspective explaining exactly how any of that stuff between Cloud and Tifa give sibling vibes. I assume most people don't wanna make out with their siblings afterall.

I genuinely believe they don't actually believe that crap. I feel like a lot of Cleriths deep down kinda realize that they've lost the argument, but they're trying this thing where if they can just act hard enough as though "Oh, I never really saw them as romantic, I always thought it was pretty obvious CLoud and Tifa were just friends" is the natural interpretation, that that somehow makes it so.

So using this fake surprise that people would not share this viewpoint to somehow project into the ether that their interpretation is the commonly accepted reality in the hope that others will see that and go "Oh, I suppose that really is the commonly accepted reality then, otherwise why would they be so surprised?"

It's zeitgeist manipulation.

 

[insanehobbit]

I find the which date is "canon" debate so silly (second only to song lyrics discourse, lol) because if the devs wanted a specific date to be canon, they obviously wouldn't have made said scene optional/variable, as they have for like 99% of the game? Like if your ship can't co-exist with certain "optional" scenes existing, maybe ya need to rethink it?

I think it's interesting that both Tifa and Aerith's dates have the flashback with them talking about Zack. That is probably the most plotty/lore-relevant part of the dates in general, and the devs probably expect most people to go for either Tifa or Aerith the first time around, so this way they make sure most players will have seen that by the end of their first play through. Whereas in the OG, Aerith's is really the only one with any story/lore-related content.

That being said, I still find it a baffling choice to lock a major turning point in Aerith's character arc behind optional scenes. Though I guess you can argue that NPTK is basically just the song version of what Aerith tries to tell Cloud on the gondola, but I think that is the devs having way too much faith in this particular fandom being able to put the puzzle pieces together lol

 

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, for the love of-

I thought these were “optional!”

So it’s canon if Aerith’s involved but not Tifa? WTF.

It's "Rules for thee but not for me." Always has been. It's not about understanding the story, but about winning.