SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

- if we put this in an equation and remove both Zack and Tifa on Cloud and Aerith's lives again i said this to one CA before THEY WONT BE ABLE TO FIND EACH OTHER. as said in article @insanehobbit before

There are moments between C/A that may seem romantic when taken on its own, but viewed within the context of the whole narrative, ultimately reveal that they aren’t quite right for each other, and in each other, they’re actually searching for someone else.

- Aerith is able to live a 'lie' and pretend everything's alright w/o Zack through Cloud and Cloud is able to live his 'soldier-persona' that he thinks strong enough to protect Tifa and be special for her. However in doing so in narrative of the story it also disrupts this to their true' roles.

For Aerith - Cloud is a distraction for her role as a cetra as she wont communicate with LS people if she keeps on remembering Zack and wont accept his death ( w/c she's able to achieve when she's separated from Cloud in ch13) -

Spoiler: click here

which is also why on next chapter ( if i remember correct if i'm wrong ) we're on Aerith's last dream date - w/c is a sign she's ready to face her fate and accept Zack's death. By doing so she's able to 'confess' and express how she feels and recognize the difference between love and like ( different kind of liking)

by accepting one's death she's able to let go those strong feelings holding her back and recognize she didnt like Cloud romantically but different kind of liking as friend and appreciate that although Zack's gone he's able to return as a 'memory'

For Cloud he is holding on to that 'soldier-persona' but makes him loses his real self and thus prone to Sephiroth control.

- again another element how they're not a good couple ( narrative prospective of the story - both of them are living a lie ) although a different kind still a 'pretend' that they think will be good enough but no..

Re: your dream date note

Spoiler

I feel like no one's talking enough about how Stamp merch is present at every single vendor. Now, because I'm a Zack fan, I chose it every time and got rejected lmaoooo which I thought was really funny but this is supposed to be "Aerith's dream" and in her dream she's literally shoving Zack symbolism in your face everywhere you go--another way of telling the player that she hasn't moved on.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

So I'm in the extremely unique situation of as a Clerith believing since I played OG that Cloud and Tifa are romantic and accepting them as canon.

But bc I'm this unique position I see everything so different. It's hard to articulate.

I actually find the way CTs in fandom describe CT as what turned me off the ship for years and I enjoyed it a lot more when I got to see it for myself.

I admittedly did not like the pinnacle of CT scenes the Lifestream scene in OG not bc it disproved my ship (I didn't know what shipping or discourse was lol) but because it was too "fate made everything so these two are forever intertwined." I didn't see any struggle any obstacles in their way to fix Cloud it was all just too convenient maybe how easily it's fixed? I also don't usually ship childhood friends bc it never feels earned when two people are destined for eachother and the whole Tifa is his everything Tifa is the reason he comes back, his sole motivation. This man doesnt have a single thought it was all Tifa. And... Yeah I didn't vibe with that. At all.

I HATE this interpretation of CA as well from CA extremists. I ranted about this on my blog and people responded like oh so you don't like CT? And it's like

I like them in certain situations lol.

But I actually started shipping CT when Advent Children released. Yep. The one most CTs hate. I ate that up bc I loved seeing them overcome struggles I didn't exactly see in OG. What actually convinced me I liked Tifa was her telling Cloud to stop running. It felt like they were getting stronger together even though they were in the moment drifting apart "instead of we're together bc we belong together." And how he returns in the end and apologizes and together they fight? I was all over that. I love it.

So yeah idk. And now in Rebirth I feel exactly the same. I like this so much better because they're shown as individuals with problems working through them together not a ying yang blob of romance destined for eachother. I really like that. And I got the Tifa date for the GS tour and I'm actually actively enjoying it bc it actually feels earned.

Same with CA the sad scenes are actually more of my favorite than the banter and when they clash but still stick together and support eachother I really just like them more.

 

[liuliuliu]

Does anyone else find it adorable that Barret has kind of antagonistic relationship/interactions with basically everyone except Tifa and Aerith? xD Although I know it might come across as Barret being hard on Cloud, Red XIII, Yuffie etc to some but in the end he really does care for them all. In Chapter 13 I'm rolling because Cid is still kind of cocky and I think that triggers Barret a bit and Cid's like I'm not letting another man tell me what to do haha. I hope and think they will come to appreciate each other more in the third game

Barret rarely has any interaction with Aerith other then their synergy attack.

EDIT: and it is funny cause you can see Barret and Yuffie interact with each other a lot in the plot and even in background. There are so many times in the back ground they showed Yuffie do her little show with Barret, and Barret either shoo her away or play along. They show it completely with no reasons. They choose to show it a lot between Barret and Yuffie, but so reluctant to put interactions between Aerith and Barret. There rarely even an eye contact between these 2 outside the must have plot to have them talk to each other.
Cid has more interaction with Aerith than Barret through out the game honestly. I literally hate CA shippers that make everyone and everything around Aerith.

 

[Eerie]

I have to say I don't agree re the Kalm fight - even though I'm definitely a Cloud/Tifa gal. The apology for Kalm however - that definitely had romantic undertones.

Kalm was just a crazy alien manipulated mess man. Ughhh.

Nah the Kalm fight is textbook romance because you want your main pair to have tension and resolve it. If there is no Kalm fight, there is no Under Junon reconciliation (also using romance tropes, yes). Romance fans know lol, show this to Bridgerton fans and they'll tell you it's romance in the making lol. Welonz when she played through it was like "OMG this is romance drama, I eat this up" lol.

Does anyone else find it adorable that Barret has kind of antagonistic relationship/interactions with basically everyone except Tifa and Aerith? xD Although I know it might come across as Barret being hard on Cloud, Red XIII, Yuffie etc to some but in the end he really does care for them all. In Chapter 13 I'm rolling because Cid is still kind of cocky and I think that triggers Barret a bit and Cid's like I'm not letting another man tell me what to do haha. I hope and think they will come to appreciate each other more in the third game

Barret is a dad to the whole gang lmao and I love him for that.

@LunarTarotGirl I knew you'd enjoy CT more in Rebirth lol. I know your tastes xD

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Eerie Loll. Yes, you do. I'm enjoying the sad CA stuff too. Honestly everything so far is better than Remake to me.

 

[Rin]

@Eerie Loll. Yes, you do. I'm enjoying the sad CA stuff too. Honestly everything so far is better than Remake to me.

I like sad, tragic romances too which is why CA is like ... My Vibe but they don't hit the mark because Zack is a massive wedge in the narrative. Now, when they made CC I was like "Ah, yes, this is my taste." Because I like the drama, the sadness, the yearning--which Rebirth dialled up to 1000x.

I love CA "aesthetically" as in their colour palettes look really nice together, but I see/feel no physical chemistry which is boring to me (more so in remake/rebirth than the OG bc.... pixels). And they don't really have any conflict other than "We're both sad about Zack but one of us actually doesn't know he's sad about Zack."

This is probably why I like when she shows signs of envy and jealousy toward CT because I need some sort of conflict to feel invested in them, whether that's romantically or platonically. Before everything just kinda went too smoothly up until Sephiroth took control of Cloud and then she died. But Sephiroth taking control of Cloud impacts everyone, not just Aerith, so there's still no Clerith-specific conflict outside of the Zack-shaped elephant in the room.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Barret doesn't have to interact as much with Aerith in Rebirth because their bond was established from the OG/Remake, and they actually have more than their synergy attack, but heh I'm not going to discourse with someone saying going I hate CA shippers that make everything about Aerith because that's not what I was doing.

Marlene is Barret's whole world and Aerith automatically got an in with him the moment she put herself out there for Marlene even given herself up to the Shinra in exchange for Marlene's safety. That's a bond for life in Barret's books.

Characters like Nanaki and Yuffie have more time with Barret in Rebirth because they still have to establish and forge their bonds becoming closer together but from Barret saying Cetra speech at the end like he did in Aerith's room in Remake, saying things like let's go get our girl, etc, it's clear he still cares for Aerith.

All the love and support to everyone sharing their personal experiences and the transparency about mental health and trauma in here recently. Also a subject which hits close to home, and I'm glad this forum can be kind of a haven for people. To be open, or show any sense of vulnerability, or trust can be hard at times which is why some of us relate so hard to these characters and the FFVII universe I think.

 

[shady]

So I'm in the extremely unique situation of as a Clerith believing since I played OG that Cloud and Tifa are romantic and accepting them as canon.

But bc I'm this unique position I see everything so different. It's hard to articulate.

I actually find the way CTs in fandom describe CT as what turned me off the ship for years and I enjoyed it a lot more when I got to see it for myself.

I admittedly did not like the pinnacle of CT scenes the Lifestream scene in OG not bc it disproved my ship (I didn't know what shipping or discourse was lol) but because it was too "fate made everything so these two are forever intertwined." I didn't see any struggle any obstacles in their way to fix Cloud it was all just too convenient maybe how easily it's fixed? I also don't usually ship childhood friends bc it never feels earned when two people are destined for eachother and the whole Tifa is his everything Tifa is the reason he comes back, his sole motivation. This man doesnt have a single thought it was all Tifa. And... Yeah I didn't vibe with that. At all.

I HATE this interpretation of CA as well from CA extremists. I ranted about this on my blog and people responded like oh so you don't like CT? And it's like

I like them in certain situations lol.

But I actually started shipping CT when Advent Children released. Yep. The one most CTs hate. I ate that up bc I loved seeing them overcome struggles I didn't exactly see in OG. What actually convinced me I liked Tifa was her telling Cloud to stop running. It felt like they were getting stronger together even though they were in the moment drifting apart "instead of we're together bc we belong together." And how he returns in the end and apologizes and together they fight? I was all over that. I love it.

So yeah idk. And now in Rebirth I feel exactly the same. I like this so much better because they're shown as individuals with problems working through them together not a ying yang blob of romance destined for eachother. I really like that. And I got the Tifa date for the GS tour and I'm actually actively enjoying it bc it actually feels earned.

Same with CA the sad scenes are actually more of my favorite than the banter and when they clash but still stick together and support eachother I really just like them more.

I'm glad to hear you think this way, because even though I am a big CT shipper because that's what the story tells me, when it comes to the OG there are obviously big chunks of it where you'd maybe be excused for thinking maybe they don't have as many moments as they should have in order to justify what happens in the LS and the end and so on just as you say. I 100% agree they are dealing with it much better so far in Remake and Rebirth, they feel a lot more closely connected as two people learning about each other again but also working through their mutual trauma together -- but also as individuals, and it's because of these reasons that the hug at the end of Remake made sense, as does the Kiss at the GS in this game, because there's been so many scenes and so much tension building up to these moments that they work and don't feel unearned or rushed.

I mean this is what Nomura said in his interview, moving CT's relationship forward sooner so that we get to see them actually earn what they get, that the progression of their relationship feels more natural and we see the feelings develop more over the course of the games as opposed to dumping big chunks of it on the LS or HW. I also think it's why we're all seeing neutrals and reviewers actually commenting on how much more developed the relationship is too, people are seeing it from a mile away.

 

[Hellenic]

Unfortunately impossible. You can't ever satisfy everyone and trying to do so is just doomed to failure. Even in that scenario you gave, I guarantee you that there would still be ship wars. Just look at the Persona waifu wars lol

I genuinely don't see why there needs to be wars in those games when all the so called "romance" picks are completely irrelevant to their main stories with no payoffs? Like you'd think these "pick your routes" games would have none of it when no one pick is anymore canon than the rest, and it's the perfect field for headcanoning and just enjoying your own preferred pairings/characters.

Though i suppose people still have the need to have others validate your preferences.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Does anyone else find it adorable that Barret has kind of antagonistic relationship/interactions with basically everyone except Tifa and Aerith? xD Although I know it might come across as Barret being hard on Cloud, Red XIII, Yuffie etc to some but in the end he really does care for them all. In Chapter 13 I'm rolling because Cid is still kind of cocky and I think that triggers Barret a bit and Cid's like I'm not letting another man tell me what to do haha. I hope and think they will come to appreciate each other more in the third game

I’m excited for more Cid in Part 3 and his dynamic with Barret as I think deep down Barret’s glad there’s finally another grown up in the party

“Them damn kids!” - Barret and Cid probably

 

[Rin]

Barret doesn't have to interact as much with Aerith in Rebirth because their bond was established from the OG/Remake, and they actually have more than their synergy attack, but heh I'm not going to discourse with someone saying going I hate CA shippers that make everything about Aerith because that's not what I was doing.

Marlene is Barret's whole world and Aerith automatically got an in with him the moment she put herself out there for Marlene even given herself up to the Shinra in exchange for Marlene's safety. That's a bond for life in Barret's books.

Characters like Nanaki and Yuffie have more time with Barret in Rebirth because they still have to establish and forge their bonds becoming closer together but from Barret saying Cetra speech at the end like he did in Aerith's room in Remake, saying things like let's go get our girl, etc, it's clear he still cares for Aerith.

All the love and support to everyone sharing their personal experiences and the transparency about mental health and trauma in here recently. Also a subject which hits close to home, and I'm glad this forum can be kind of a haven for people. To be open, or show any sense of vulnerability, or trust can be hard at times which is why some of us relate so hard to these characters and the FFVII universe I think.

This is such a nice insight, Maiden! Loved reading it and I love that remake/rebirth made the bond between Barret and the girls so positive and fatherly. Your comment actually reminded me of an interview with his English VA and he talked a lot about how Barret is such a girl dad and feels protective and fatherly over Tifa and Yuffie, specifically. And I love that he has such an affinity for Aerith because she protected his little baby, Marlene. Ah, it's so sweet!

 

[Empyrea]

So I'm in the extremely unique situation of as a Clerith believing since I played OG that Cloud and Tifa are romantic and accepting them as canon.

But bc I'm this unique position I see everything so different. It's hard to articulate.

I actually find the way CTs in fandom describe CT as what turned me off the ship for years and I enjoyed it a lot more when I got to see it for myself.

I admittedly did not like the pinnacle of CT scenes the Lifestream scene in OG not bc it disproved my ship (I didn't know what shipping or discourse was lol) but because it was too "fate made everything so these two are forever intertwined." I didn't see any struggle any obstacles in their way to fix Cloud it was all just too convenient maybe how easily it's fixed? I also don't usually ship childhood friends bc it never feels earned when two people are destined for eachother and the whole Tifa is his everything Tifa is the reason he comes back, his sole motivation. This man doesnt have a single thought it was all Tifa. And... Yeah I didn't vibe with that. At all.

I HATE this interpretation of CA as well from CA extremists. I ranted about this on my blog and people responded like oh so you don't like CT? And it's like

I like them in certain situations lol.

But I actually started shipping CT when Advent Children released. Yep. The one most CTs hate. I ate that up bc I loved seeing them overcome struggles I didn't exactly see in OG. What actually convinced me I liked Tifa was her telling Cloud to stop running. It felt like they were getting stronger together even though they were in the moment drifting apart "instead of we're together bc we belong together." And how he returns in the end and apologizes and together they fight? I was all over that. I love it.

So yeah idk. And now in Rebirth I feel exactly the same. I like this so much better because they're shown as individuals with problems working through them together not a ying yang blob of romance destined for eachother. I really like that. And I got the Tifa date for the GS tour and I'm actually actively enjoying it bc it actually feels earned.

Same with CA the sad scenes are actually more of my favorite than the banter and when they clash but still stick together and support eachother I really just like them more.

I remember seeing this on your blog! I had to think on it a bit, but I eventually got what you mean because I certainly didn't see the CT stuff in OG right away. I definitely agree that CT in retrilogy has not only better set-up but more conflict to overcome, which is better than what they had in OG.

I genuinely don't see why there needs to be wars in those games when all the so called "romance" picks are completely irrelevant to their main stories with no payoffs? Like you'd think these "pick your routes" games would have none of it when no one pick is anymore canon than the rest, and it's the perfect field for headcanoning and just enjoying your own preferred pairings/characters.

Though i suppose people still have the need to have others validate your preferences.

See, here's the thing: your thoughts are my thoughts exactly xD

 

[billy22]

The only thing that's bothered me about the CA fandom are the absurd lengths some of them have gone to in order arrive at the conclusion that Cloud isn't romantically involved with Tifa after the OG. Like, even if you think he loved Aerith, why the obsession with denying him any happiness after her death with another woman he loves?

I don't have a problem with people thinking he loved both girls (although Remake is starting to make me wonder about what he feels towards Aerith), I just don't get their obsession with dragging down the Tifa 'ship in the process.

And I emphasize some because there are some general cool clerith fans who aren't perpetually in denial.

(Also, fuck me this game is long. I want to discuss LTD in Rebirth but I STILL AM NOT DONE AND I'VE BEEN PLAYING IT EVERY DAY)

 

[Hix]

The only thing that's bothered me about the CA fandom are the absurd lengths some of them have gone to in order arrive at the conclusion that Cloud isn't romantically involved with Tifa after the OG. Like, even if you think he loved Aerith, why the obsession with denying him any happiness after her death with another woman he loves?

It's particularly egregious because they insist that Aerith can and should move on from Zack, gotta look forward and not back, he's the past now, etc etc. so like, why can't Cloud - a 21 year old guy who has undeniably been shown to be attracted to Tifa - not move on, look forward and not back, live and be happy?

The answer is Tifa. The CA fandom fundamentally don't like Tifa - and their ship, by it's very nature, invalidates her character and strips her of any reason for existing in the narrative. To put it another way, because Tifa's role is to support Cloud as his love interest, to ship CA in earnest is an admission de facto that you don't like Tifa as she is. That's the crux of the matter.

In any case, Advent Children Complete, regardless of how you view OG, comes along as a palette cleanser. Even if you do think CA happened, Cloud is by that time together with Tifa in life and Aerith is together with Zack in death. They've moved on and can anyone in good faith argue they don't deserve to do so?

 

[GamerSkull]

It's particularly egregious because they insist that Aerith can and should move on from Zack, gotta look forward and not back, he's the past now, etc etc. so like, why can't Cloud - a 21 year old guy who has undeniably been shown to be attracted to Tifa - not moved on, look forward and not back, live and be happy?

The answer is Tifa. The CA fandom fundamentally don't like Tifa - and their ship, by it's very nature, invalidates her character and strips her of any reason for existing in the narrative. To put it another way, because Tifa's role is to support Cloud as his love interest, to ship CA in earnest is an admission de facto that you don't like Tifa as she is. That's the crux of the matter.

In any case, Advent Children Complete, regardless of how you view OG, comes along as a palette cleanser. Even if you do think CA happened, Cloud is by that time together with Tifa in life and Aerith is together with Zack in death. They've moved on and can anyone in good faith argue they don't deserve to do so?

You’re kinda right. I’ve seen so many CA fans claim that Tifa only exists for fanservice. Or that Tifa’s bond with Cloud is sisterly, which I don’t really understand but whatever.

And I believe you mentioned it earlier, but they dislike Zack too.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Re: your dream date note

Spoiler

I feel like no one's talking enough about how Stamp merch is present at every single vendor. Now, because I'm a Zack fan, I chose it every time and got rejected lmaoooo which I thought was really funny but this is supposed to be "Aerith's dream" and in her dream she's literally shoving Zack symbolism in your face everywhere you go--another way of telling the player that she hasn't moved on.

- well yeah have to agree sadly~ @eleamaya just pointed it out to me that the last date is further proof that she's not ready to get over Zack at all

 

[shady]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1769391253752324262

 

[Legend45]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1769391253752324262

They are too adorable

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

I’m only 18 hours in and I’ve only just met-up with Yuffie in Under Junon, so it’s going to be a few months until I have anything worthwhile to contribute in this thread. Nevertheless, allow me to share some unsolicited hot-takes (informed by glorious spoilers, of course):

1. Cloud has a lot of love for Aerith. She’s very dear to him.

2. Cloud’s body and soul ache for Tifa. Regardless of whether he’s fully aware of it or not.

Let’s see how these takes of mine evolve in the coming weeks as I try to steal more time away with this game.

 

[Ruri]

All these synchronized zerith comparisons twitter fans are posting are actually giving me a big amount of confidence for part three zerith. If not for the magnifying glass over the ships and people pulling out all the Zack details in the last dream date, I would not have noticed much.

Rebirth did achieve making me feel gutted and pining for Zack and Aerith. Zack represents a lot that Aerith is trying to obtain in Cloud and with Zack she would never have to work for any of it. Also Aerith admitting to still liking Zack seals the deal on rooting for these two. I know the glaring problem with Zack being dead is presenting itself but in Rebirth... he kinda isn't? So the game has opened up a hole in me that wants this meeting to happen. If by Nomura's words, this retrilogy links up with AC, that zerith reunion is happening and it might be heartwrenching but I am ready for it.

 

[Someonesbunny]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1769391253752324262

With consideration to the way that these writers handled past works (and at the risk of bringing the Summer and Winter monkeys back into the discussion) I feel like they seem to write concepts of grief similarly - most prominent examples being FFX and FFX2.

I'm bringing this up mostly because of the way in which Aerith seems to emulate Zack in a similar way that Yuna both emulated and imbibed Tidus' mannerisms, symbols, and energy into the way she dealt with others and the way she presented herself. She dealt with her grief, in a way, by becoming who she lost at the expense of herself (unfortunately, her story doesn't end in self-actualization through acceptance, but that's an argument for another forum, surely). She presents herself with a kind of colour and brightness that isn't quite who she was when we first meet her (in narrative chronology, not in order of release).

The matrix that they present that is actually somewhat similar to Aerith's dilemma of dealing with her past with Zack and her present with Cloud is in Wakka and Lulu and their experience of dealing with losing Chappu - and once again, we have a guy show up that looks like someone they knew and sort of acts like him too, and while Wakka wants to hope or even pretend that they might be the same person, that the ones they lost may actually be found, Lulu is on the opposite end, accepting that she had been happy, but that her life has to continue. The tragedy for Aerith has always been the fact that she never made it from Wakka to Lulu.

I suppose its safe enough to speculate that this is one of the reasons that they insisted having Crisis Core released in between as well. That and money.

I suppose it's more of a question of whether or not they were able to present these as well as they did in the past - and I feel like, while I'm sure it was meant to be subtle, it's often too difficult to discern when we're dealing with a franchise that spans across decades, multiple types of media, and on multiple platforms. We've got books to go through, past games, some features are no longer an accepted part of the canon, some are being retconned, and something like 4 years between every game of this remake. There was a mobile game somewhere in there too.

Now then. About those monkeys...

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

1. Cloud has a lot of love for Aerith. She’s very dear to him.

2. Cloud’s body and soul ache for Tifa. Regardless of whether he’s fully aware of it or not.

I don't usually post in here anymore, since the joy of near flamewar level rage is frowned upon these days. I mean seriously, Cloud slips Tifa tongue on camera and this thread isn't a burning warzone? Oh well I'm probably too old for that shit now anyway

But the above statement by Doc Crane must be quoted for fucking truth and great justice. It must. FFT&GJ, I say.

 

[Stiggie]

Re: your dream date note

Spoiler

I feel like no one's talking enough about how Stamp merch is present at every single vendor. Now, because I'm a Zack fan, I chose it every time and got rejected lmaoooo which I thought was really funny but this is supposed to be "Aerith's dream" and in her dream she's literally shoving Zack symbolism in your face everywhere you go--another way of telling the player that she hasn't moved on.

This is actually something I wanted to bring up, because I noticed the same thing, and I too always chose the Stamp options since that symbolized Zack to me. But I'm still not exactly sure what to make of the fact that Stamp is always there, the only thing I can imagine is it indeed being a reference to Zacks existence in general, but I couldn't quite hard place that either.

Also, in response to some general comments, while I think Tifa was shy in the OG I didn't get that vibe AT ALL in remake and rebirth. She feels very mature and withheld, but not shy.

 

[Stiggie]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1769391253752324262

This honestly hurts. At times I forget that I tend to mostly argue for Cloti, because honestly Zack and Aerith might actually be what hits me hardest.

 

[hytekz]

Maybe I'm just too wishful but I don't see the dev re-releasing CC, re-releasing ACC in theaters, going out of their to bring back Zack to the remake project and not give a nice conclusion to Aerith and Zack in part 3, that'd be too cruel.