LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
Will it though? I don't believe the questions that remakes ending left us were answered in the first hour of Rebirth. There's actually some that are yet to be answered
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
shady
Pro Adventurer
Here's the thing everyone isn't bringing up though. If for example Aerith is actually not dead at the end of Rebirth, and is actually alive somewhere.. well she kinda still has to die at some point in the next game. Why? Because we've seen elements of her character in Remake and Rebirth that can only coincide with her being dead or in the Lifestream either now or in the future.
Is she controlling the white whispers? Has to be dead for that
She's able to show up in Remake with future knowledge? Has to be dead in the future for that
Ability to stop Meteor and such? Has to be dead for that
She's clearly helping/saving Zack wherever he is (probably Lifestream or inbetween) again has to be dead for that
But let's forget about all this for a moment.. let's say she did survive.. genuinely what is left in the character arc of AliveAerith? Cause as far as I can see the only unresolved thing is does she really like Cloud romantically? Can she really get over Zack? The narrative of FF7 and the compilation demands at this point that Aerith die in order for her to fulfill the rest of her character arc, if she doesn't die then what the hell does she even do except travel around with the party getting into some fights.
Please correct me if you think i'm wrong though
Is she controlling the white whispers? Has to be dead for that
She's able to show up in Remake with future knowledge? Has to be dead in the future for that
Ability to stop Meteor and such? Has to be dead for that
She's clearly helping/saving Zack wherever he is (probably Lifestream or inbetween) again has to be dead for that
But let's forget about all this for a moment.. let's say she did survive.. genuinely what is left in the character arc of AliveAerith? Cause as far as I can see the only unresolved thing is does she really like Cloud romantically? Can she really get over Zack? The narrative of FF7 and the compilation demands at this point that Aerith die in order for her to fulfill the rest of her character arc, if she doesn't die then what the hell does she even do except travel around with the party getting into some fights.
Please correct me if you think i'm wrong though
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
She can save Cloud in the Lifestream. /s
But yes, there would not be much for her to do. Besides everything Tifa already does. If she’s alive, then there’s no reason for Tifa to exist.
Which, not coincidentally, is how it went during development too. Tifa was created because Aerith died. Or rather, Tifa was reworked to be Aerith and a new Tifa was created.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
They basically had to do some goofy shit for the endings of Remake and Rebirth because they've split the game into multiple parts instead of dropping it all at once. "Wow, I can't wait to see my favorite scenes from the OG reimagined in HD graphics!" is enough to sustain hype for one game, especially one as iconic as the OG, but not for a project that's going to span nearly a decade after all's said and done.
The "crazy" endings get everyone talking and excited for the next game. Those who want something different to happen can still cling onto hope until the third game drops. Those who want things to stay the same will live in anxiety until then, but seeing the same storyline play out will feel all the more satisfying because you don't realize how much you love something until someone threatens to take it away.
If the ending for Rebirth had been the ending of the OG beat for beat, but in HD graphics, I would have been like, "Cool, can't wait to see the Northern Crater and Lifestream sequence in 3-4 years." and just moved on with my life. While I'm 99% certain the third game will play out more or less the same as the OG, it's that 1% of uncertainty that's making me post here instead of doing something more productive with my time, lmao. But at the end of the day, that's just marketing. And it seems like it's working, so good for them!
As for the actual ending, I don't think it's Jenova (or Sephinova at least) because we all know that Cloud is very capable of being delusional on his own. Regardless, the framing of the lake scene makes it clear that we're supposed to think this is a bad/unhealthy situation. Cloud is seated between Tifa and "Aerith," and in that moment, he's looking at "Aerith," thus choosing an illusion over reality, which is obviously not a good thing!
Tonally, it would be strange to have CGI Aerith being Jenova because it very much feels like a goodbye from Aerith to the player as well, not just to the party/Cloud. Would be a poor choice to undercut the emotional power of that ending, even if they wait 3-4 years to pull the run from under us.
That being said, there could be something to it being 2 different Aeriths in the CGI ending, since Cloud doesn't talk to her until after he gets the Jenova headache and pulls out the "Black Materia." So it could be the Aerith that's hanging around with the party while Cloud is looking at the White Materia is the real/Lifestream Aerith, whereas the one Cloud is talking to at the end/post-Black Materia is a different one. But imo, it would be needlessly convoluted and silly to have like 7 different Aeriths running around, though it's certainly something I could see them doing.
But in any case, if the ending of Remake has taught me anything, it's that ultimately whatever's happening in Rebirth's ending isn't really gonna affect how the vast majority of Part 3 is gonna play out.
The "crazy" endings get everyone talking and excited for the next game. Those who want something different to happen can still cling onto hope until the third game drops. Those who want things to stay the same will live in anxiety until then, but seeing the same storyline play out will feel all the more satisfying because you don't realize how much you love something until someone threatens to take it away.
If the ending for Rebirth had been the ending of the OG beat for beat, but in HD graphics, I would have been like, "Cool, can't wait to see the Northern Crater and Lifestream sequence in 3-4 years." and just moved on with my life. While I'm 99% certain the third game will play out more or less the same as the OG, it's that 1% of uncertainty that's making me post here instead of doing something more productive with my time, lmao. But at the end of the day, that's just marketing. And it seems like it's working, so good for them!
As for the actual ending, I don't think it's Jenova (or Sephinova at least) because we all know that Cloud is very capable of being delusional on his own. Regardless, the framing of the lake scene makes it clear that we're supposed to think this is a bad/unhealthy situation. Cloud is seated between Tifa and "Aerith," and in that moment, he's looking at "Aerith," thus choosing an illusion over reality, which is obviously not a good thing!
Tonally, it would be strange to have CGI Aerith being Jenova because it very much feels like a goodbye from Aerith to the player as well, not just to the party/Cloud. Would be a poor choice to undercut the emotional power of that ending, even if they wait 3-4 years to pull the run from under us.
That being said, there could be something to it being 2 different Aeriths in the CGI ending, since Cloud doesn't talk to her until after he gets the Jenova headache and pulls out the "Black Materia." So it could be the Aerith that's hanging around with the party while Cloud is looking at the White Materia is the real/Lifestream Aerith, whereas the one Cloud is talking to at the end/post-Black Materia is a different one. But imo, it would be needlessly convoluted and silly to have like 7 different Aeriths running around, though it's certainly something I could see them doing.
But in any case, if the ending of Remake has taught me anything, it's that ultimately whatever's happening in Rebirth's ending isn't really gonna affect how the vast majority of Part 3 is gonna play out.
Hix
Pro Adventurer
Yeah extreme Clotis do this too, unfortunately, particularly in mischaracterizing Aerith as being annoying or a bad faith actor in her perceived relentless pursuit of Cloud's affections.
I would say though, perhaps controversially, that while these are the views of only an extremist fringe of CTs, that CA by it's very nature relies on mischaracterizing the characters in possibly the worst way.
One only has to see how close the crew have become in Rebirth, the comradery between the team is definitely that of a close-knit group of "nakama" that has developed seemingly overnight. It's a reason why many struggle to imagine how they'll tie-in Yuffie stealing our materia - also, to a lesser extent, Cait Sith being Cait Sith - because we've seen how close she's become with everyone, as opposed to in OG when she was just, kinda, there. But also because we know she's really just a genuinely good person.
The same holds true for Cloud. He may be in the throes of his SOLDIER fantasy persona - the flames of which stoked by Aerith's offer for him to be her bodyguard - but underneath all that is a genuine, pure and good guy. That much shines through, as the devs have been at pains to show, when he's with Tifa.
Nevertheless, if CA is a thing then Cloud is actually really a pretty selfish person underneath it all. Eschewing the long-held affections of the girl who dedicates herself to healing him, he switches his own affections on a dime to someone he met mere days earlier. Cloud gives in to his most base of desires with her and this is not even halted by the realization that his best friend Zack, who gave his life that he may live, was and is her boyfriend. Indeed, neither is it slowed by Aerith's death as he refuses to move on and becomes a depressing mess of a man, either actively looking to die or sitting around waiting for it and ignoring the family who love and support him so dearly. Instead of supporting Cloud against this specter of depression, as Advent Children wants us to do, Cleriths outright romanticize it.
So too Aerith supposedly seems content to watch Cloud go through all of the above, perhaps even actively encouraging it. To punctuate this, she uses her Cetra abilities to keep Zack around in the Lifestream as a way to remind him that he sucks and will never get the girl. His punishment, despite having done nothing wrong whatsoever, is an eternity of watching the man he saved stick the middle finger in his direction while being eternally alone and unloved. These are not the characters we have come to love and appreciate since 1997.
It beggars belief that anyone can look at the plot at face value, see where we've come from, and think that when Aerith and Zack inevitably meet in part 3 she's going to reject him. Similarly, that Cloud - who has been shown to be unambiguously romantic with one, and only one, girl - will have a change of heart, after a decade of every ounce of him loving (and let's be honest, thirsting for) Tifa.
Yes, people who ship this ship only see what's in front of them. CA are cute, I like their dynamic, they should be together, the end. That's fine in a vacuum, but nearly 30 years on these characters, all of them, deserve a happy ending. The devs have said that's what they aim to give them and, honestly, it's simply not possible to do that with CA as the end game.
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Yoru
Pro Adventurer
My boy went throught fucked up recruitement, creepy surgery to impress one girl.
But no, let's throw it away for this girl I don't really know.
I was ok to give CA the benefit of the doubt when we had only OG material at the time. But with the whole Remake project there's no place open to interpretations. They're even doubling down on it. Just stop to force this ship on everyone. It won't happen.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Actually it reminds me of this Rebirth situation.
Yes Aerith have feelings for Cloud. Maybe love at the end. But and what about Cloud ? We never asked him what HE wants. And I don't think Cloud is very open to the idea to have this kind of relationship with the girlfriend of HIS BEST FRIEND. Cloud remembers Zack in Rebirth, hell the only thing he remembers is Zack being head over heels for her.
So it's already not on the table. So what do you think will happen when he remembers Zack died to save his ass ? Yeah this ship is dead. You have to accept it.
Yes Aerith have feelings for Cloud. Maybe love at the end. But and what about Cloud ? We never asked him what HE wants. And I don't think Cloud is very open to the idea to have this kind of relationship with the girlfriend of HIS BEST FRIEND. Cloud remembers Zack in Rebirth, hell the only thing he remembers is Zack being head over heels for her.
So it's already not on the table. So what do you think will happen when he remembers Zack died to save his ass ? Yeah this ship is dead. You have to accept it.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Hellenic
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Hellenic
We both know why. Certain people are just unhinged about anything that would put their character in a bad light.
Hellenic
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Hellenic
I've always hated this idea and i don't get why so many people like it. This game is about Cloud, not Zack coming in and replacing him. We already have characters like Tifa and Cid who will take over when he's gonna be absent.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Yup. Seems like a lot of people don't understand FF7 very well
Hellenic
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Hellenic
They effectively fucked over the scene to make a later scene more effective in part 3. Wish they just stuck to the sudden death with no goodbye scenes across like 4 different scenes.
Well, there is a difference here. Whether or not something is annoying is a matter of perception, while whether or not something is selfish is a matter of intention. That means one resides in the viewer, and the other in the character.
When you (the proverbial you) say Tifa is selfish that's simply wrong, that's a character trait she's simply not meant to have. The reason they view her as such is because they ascribe motivations to Tifa that she simply does not have. It's literally head-canon. Meanwhile whether or not Aerith is annoying or not is completely unrelated to her personal characteristics, it's 100% a matter of perception, we all get to decide it for ourselves and it's completely reasonable to complain that a game portrays a character in a way that you find annoying, regardless of whether or not they're intended to be so.
Then there is a third category where there subject is a trait or motivation of the character, and we simply disagree on whether that particular motivation is selfish or similar. These I think can be argued over. But there is a difference between disagreeing about whether or not a motivation is selfish, and whether the motivation you're suggesting is a straight up lie. For instance, when people say Tifa lied to Cloud because she only cared about her own feelings and not his, that's just straight-up not true.
Last thing that needs to be taken into account is that there are times when an action can be so bad, that even if certain motivations are given for them, that those motivations would only be enough to cause the actions if the person doing them is just a bad person in general, if they lack certain positive qualities that should have overwritten it. This is my personal Kobayashi Maru when it comes to Aerith in Clerith interpretations.
People can try to explain why she's driven by positive qualities, and that she's intended to have positive qualities. And I can totally agree that that's the intention of the developers. But ultimately, in aggregate, to me the actions she'd be undertaking simply point to a fundamentally bad and selfish person. At least when it comes to matters of the heart.
Yeah, I can't really call switching affections as being selfish, because it's not a choice. But he would be selfish by allowing himself to be swept away by those emotions, and for elevating his own emotions over everything else. I've had girlfriends who fell in love with someone else who acted as though it wasn't their fault, as though "I can't help my emotions, I didn't intend to fall in love". No, but you put yourself in positions that would harm your emotions in regards to our relationship, and made you emotionally closer to them, and when you felt those changes slowly coming you failed to recuse yourself, so it is 100% your fault.
He would also show that his love is extremely fickle and lacking in depth or meaning, it would be a shallow thing, easily swayed. This is another reason why the "he's only known her for 2 weeks" thing is so important. Yes, in stories people fall in first sight all the time, even in real life people can easily become infatuated. But even if that CAN happen, doesn't mean it doesn't say something about our "hero" if it were true. If Cloud can kiss Tifa, but then be in love with another girl a few hours later, then that simply makes his "love" feel like something that lacks impact. Which is the last thing you want in a romance.
And yes, like you said "not even halted", like I mentioned earlier, even if he did happen to catch a sudden case of feelings for Aerith, there should be other parts of his personality that act as a brake on his impulses. You wouldn't cheat just because you think someone is cute and they made your heart go doki doki. That is a standard we hold even for regular people.....Here we are talking about the HERO of our story, who we should hold to even higher standards if anything. Is he officially dating Tifa? No. But if you kiss a girl who clearly likes you, and who you clearly love, even as a friend, then even normal people would understand that she's owed an official "break-up" like period where you make it clear that you don't think you're in love with them, and that you didn't want to give them the wrong message, before going off and trying to hit on their best friend.
And lets not even get into the 1000 ways in which Aeriths actions would be messed up if Clerith were true (which I have outlined in a previous post)
Hell, come to think of it, if I were a CA, that would honestly be the best reason I would be able to come up with for why Cloud didn't kiss Aerith. Rather than this "oh, handholding is more romantic" crap, why not say this. "Cloud is not just in love, but he's a real person who takes other peoples feelings into consideration. Here especially he is very aware that Aerith is going through emotional trauma concerning Zack, and he doesn't want to do anything that could come across as taking advantage of her in a vulnerable state".
But I never hear them purport such a noble motivation, why? Because that would require them to understand that other peoples feelings matter, which they are seemingly incapable of doing.
the fact that they are bothered to create CC should mean something right? They can create a prequel about Sephiroth’s story and just show how he turned into a villain, I think people will like that as well. But they decided to expand Zack’s story, who is a really just a background character in the OG…
I think the moment when the idea of CC was brought up in the production team is the moment they decided to kill the LTD and set their foot in CT/ZA
I think the moment when the idea of CC was brought up in the production team is the moment they decided to kill the LTD and set their foot in CT/ZA
In some ways I dont get how a LTD dynamic has become such an important discourse surrounding this game when the literal most important part of FF7 is the real Clouds actual love for Tifa and Tifa's for him.
Its insane that a discourse has lasted this long when the whole most important part of the game and the most important plot twist and narrative focus is literally about this
Its insane that a discourse has lasted this long when the whole most important part of the game and the most important plot twist and narrative focus is literally about this
Yeah, I always feel like I'm discussing whether or not
Bruce Willis is dead
Hellenic
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Hellenic
This is a fairly common take they have about that. I've seen it mentioned tons of times alongside the other bit there, which was that Tifa only cared about a Cloud who would become a SOLDIER, as if it wasn't just the choice Cloud made and Tifa wanted to bounce off of that for the promise.
And Nojima wrote a novel to just say No
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Like I said before, I’m convinced a lot of players either stopped playing after Disc 1 or skimmed dialogue.
i just think they’re not being consistent. If Aerith had made a similar promise, they simply would not frame it that way.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
Headcanon always existed in any media. But that's what they are : headcanon. It exists to have fun/show more love to characters you like.
The problem here, is just that a part of CA have this unhealthy desire to force this "shit" on everyone
Remnis909
Lv. 1 Adventurer
Hello everyone! Long time FFVII fan, first time poster. I've been reading this whole thread since the ending of Remake. Spent a couple years trying to catch up just so I could post lol!
Anyway, regarding Aerith possibly rejecting Zack in Part 3, doesn't this happen in the Maiden book? Does anyone think Square will follow through with this the next installment? I personally can't see it happening due to how they've portrayed Aerith mulling over her feelings for Zack during the course of Rebirth. She even went so far as to admit she saw no reason not to love him.
The head-canon I've held for years after playing the OG and CC is Aerith struggled to let go of Zack. She went into defensive mode after sensing his death by trying to convince herself that he left her for some other woman. At least this way, he'd still be alive somewhere. Upon meeting his parents, she could no longer deny his fate. It wasn't until the GS date that I feel she was final ready to let him go and move on with Cloud. As we all know, she never got that chance.
Rebirth enhanced this part of Aerith's arc for me. Only this time, she doesn't bad-mouth Zack and instead longs for him to be by her side again.
Anyway, regarding Aerith possibly rejecting Zack in Part 3, doesn't this happen in the Maiden book? Does anyone think Square will follow through with this the next installment? I personally can't see it happening due to how they've portrayed Aerith mulling over her feelings for Zack during the course of Rebirth. She even went so far as to admit she saw no reason not to love him.
The head-canon I've held for years after playing the OG and CC is Aerith struggled to let go of Zack. She went into defensive mode after sensing his death by trying to convince herself that he left her for some other woman. At least this way, he'd still be alive somewhere. Upon meeting his parents, she could no longer deny his fate. It wasn't until the GS date that I feel she was final ready to let him go and move on with Cloud. As we all know, she never got that chance.
Rebirth enhanced this part of Aerith's arc for me. Only this time, she doesn't bad-mouth Zack and instead longs for him to be by her side again.
Sacky
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- SackyBoy
There is no way Aerith rejects Zack maiden is non canon no matter what people try to say. But can you imagine bringing back Zack to watch him get rejected XD
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Doesn’t Maiden have a line in it about meeting Zack while she was out selling flowers?
I might be misremembering but if that’s the case then the book doesn’t fit established canon since Aerith gets the idea to seller flowers FROM Zack.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
It doesn't fit because it's not canon. It's a personal interpretation by an author commissioned to write a piece.
It has nothing to do with Nojima who's in charge of all the FF7 universe since the Compilation projects. That's why he retcon this thing again and again.
Dude who wrote maiden has said himself that he got no guidance for it and just wrote his own interpretation, it really has no more validity than a fan-fiction.
I agree that Aerith let go of Zack after the GS date, that's her story-arc in the OG, it's wedged between two dates. The first mirrors her first date with Zack (which we discover in CC) but in OG already it has her talking about him, implying that the reason she was interested in Cloud was Zack. This has since been confirmed a thousand times.
During her time with Cloud she slowly starts getting over Zack, culminating in her talking about Zack again in GS, at which point she starts looking at Cloud for Cloud, rather than as a stand-in. She finally starts looking towards the future. She subsequently asks for a reading about the future, and then promptly dies. The tragedy being that once she was ready to look towards the future, it gets taken away.
Even so, there is also a solace that she died having accepted Zacks passing.
There is an additional irony here that the reason she liked Cloud was still due to his similarities to Zack, whom Cloud, unbeknownst to Aerith, mimicked.
This irony does serve as a cap-stone to the story though, it makes it all less painful, because in the end she is reunited with the person she really wants to be with, even if it is in death.
Rebirth makes this more explicit by having her redo the date with Zack AGAIN after finally trying to look at Cloud for Cloud. She discovers that once she does try to date Cloud as Cloud....it doesn't work.
Aerith mentions Zack in the first date.
Aerith mentions Zack in the second date.
Third date, Zack is no longer mentioned.....but his image is everywhere, in the back of her head, Zack is still there.
Also, welcome.
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