shady
Pro Adventurer
Some screenshots and videos from the developer videos released today
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
Sacky
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- SackyBoy
Every action/dialogue with Tifa seems to be more structured towards building a loving relationship
Less excited about the "having your choices reflected in subtle changes is a core part of FFVII" part (paraphrasing) though.
Makes me think they might think they have to really incorporate that in part 3 as well, which I really just don't want.
Also, I don't want my choices to determine destiny, I paid them to tell me a story, if I have to write it myself then I want my money back XD
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I love how they say basically “play it multiple times” because they want you to see them all.
Which means none of the scenes can be hand-waved away.
thetriplerhyme
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- thetriplerhyme
Forgot who said it on this forum. Aerith's confession is not about Cloud's feelings but mostly is all hers. She needed to know if she can fell in love with Cloud or if she's already in love with him? This is a bad kind of projection because she's not looking at him as himself but Zack's image. That's why mostly why she can't help but feel bad about it
That's why in her monologue Aerith’s Farewell Monologue at FF 30th Anniversary
‘With a new love, you’ll forget the old one.’ I’ve heard this story before, but… is that really so? Is it okay if my heart hurts?”
This is a strange place. Flowers bloom all year long. The seasons never change–my feelings never change. I’m stuck.”
I guess she got it on their last date as by
AncientGrimoire
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Grim
Since those lovely developer interviews were shared here, I thought I’d say how much I love them outright stating (as much as it should already be obvious to those who have played the games) that there exists a love amongst all the party members, but crucially specifying that, much as in life, love is expressed in many different forms.
How this greatly contributes to the resolution of this debate is numerous.
Because only one of the relationships that Cloud has in Rebirth is romantic. But this also doesn’t support the idea in some of the more extreme Cloti favouring shippers heads that, Cloud felt nothing at all for Aerith.
He loves, and did love Aerith, much as she loved him. But if it wasn’t already clear, Rebirth goes to pains to show us the love they shared wasn’t romantic.
They are however able to share something unique, and deeply important, and essentially are able to provide each other with something that Tifa can’t provide for Cloud, and Zack can’t for Aerith, at the point in the story where they first meet and interact.
What I mean is that the crux of Cloud and Aerith’s dynamic and relationship, is the living in and indulgence of their respective fantasies and wishes. It has the surface level trappings of a fairytale romance, something I believe to be a big part of the appeal for their dynamic. But there’s something deeper in the fantasy that’s presented.
For Cloud, he is able to fulfil the desire and fantasy of being somebody important (because it’s important to remember, at the point in the story where he first meets Aerith, he doesn’t feel he’s been able to become this yet for Tifa) to be Aerith’s bodyguard and protector. He is able to impress, and wow Aerith, with his SOLDIER bravado and skills, something he can’t do with Tifa. Tifa has different concerns at this point, namely figuring out what happened to make the boy she once knew change, and remember things so differently. She accepts Cloud’s SOLDIER persona in only so much that she knows he would be useful to have for the Mako Reactor Bombing Missions, but also because it allows him to remain close to home, so she can look after him and be able to help him work through his problems. With Tifa at this point, he can’t play off the cool and collected SOLDIER mercenary. If anything, that whole persona scares and unsettles Tifa.
As for Aerith, she is able to indulge in the fantasy of having Zack back in her life. She gets to relive small moments, dates she once had with Zack, in special places. She gets to do this with Cloud, and to make the point clear, she is very quick to bring up Zack with Cloud on first meeting.
Like Cloud not being able to indulge in a certain fantasy with Tifa, Aerith can’t actually live out her true fantasy, being with Zack, because Cloud isn’t Zack.
This living in respective fantasy worlds of their own making is what makes their relationship both beautiful, but bitterly tragic.
Because at just the moment where Aerith herself starts to want to start a relationship with Cloud that is separate from the man he is trying to be, to “know the real Cloud”, fate intervenes and Aerith is killed.
But before all this there are already moments where Cloud is able to slowly move past his initial mercenary facade, and be a true friend to Aerith. This is the case with all the relationships he is able to forge in Rebirth. He is capable of being this way with Tifa, Barret, Nanaki, and Yuffie.
The scene on the beach between the two of them illustrates this. Cloud expresses to Aerith that whatever she ends up deciding in respect to her future, he’ll be there for her. He’s saying that not as her bodyguard. But as a friend. A friend who has been able to recognise what Aerith is, and what she isn’t.
Perhaps another angle to the tragedy is, Cloud is able to come to know Aerith, the real Aerith, but Aerith herself doesn’t have the time to be able to find the real Cloud.
Once you no longer live in a fantasy, what you have left is reality.
For Aerith, I believe the reality is she was never able to stop loving Zack. She never had any resolution to their relationship. One day, he was just gone… her heart aches for him, and Zack’s entire motivational drive in Rebirth is to both save, and reunite with her. We the audience know this. Aerith doesn’t. Things will almost certainly change if and when Aerith is able to discover that this is what Zack has been doing.
And for Cloud, real Cloud, when he’s no longer living in his own illusionary world… there’s Tifa.
It’s always been Tifa.
I’m excited for more interesting insight from the developers going forward, what they’ve already said is very much just confirming what’s already presented in the games.
I’ll probably pop back if there’s anything interesting that comes out from the Ultimania’s.
How this greatly contributes to the resolution of this debate is numerous.
Because only one of the relationships that Cloud has in Rebirth is romantic. But this also doesn’t support the idea in some of the more extreme Cloti favouring shippers heads that, Cloud felt nothing at all for Aerith.
He loves, and did love Aerith, much as she loved him. But if it wasn’t already clear, Rebirth goes to pains to show us the love they shared wasn’t romantic.
They are however able to share something unique, and deeply important, and essentially are able to provide each other with something that Tifa can’t provide for Cloud, and Zack can’t for Aerith, at the point in the story where they first meet and interact.
What I mean is that the crux of Cloud and Aerith’s dynamic and relationship, is the living in and indulgence of their respective fantasies and wishes. It has the surface level trappings of a fairytale romance, something I believe to be a big part of the appeal for their dynamic. But there’s something deeper in the fantasy that’s presented.
For Cloud, he is able to fulfil the desire and fantasy of being somebody important (because it’s important to remember, at the point in the story where he first meets Aerith, he doesn’t feel he’s been able to become this yet for Tifa) to be Aerith’s bodyguard and protector. He is able to impress, and wow Aerith, with his SOLDIER bravado and skills, something he can’t do with Tifa. Tifa has different concerns at this point, namely figuring out what happened to make the boy she once knew change, and remember things so differently. She accepts Cloud’s SOLDIER persona in only so much that she knows he would be useful to have for the Mako Reactor Bombing Missions, but also because it allows him to remain close to home, so she can look after him and be able to help him work through his problems. With Tifa at this point, he can’t play off the cool and collected SOLDIER mercenary. If anything, that whole persona scares and unsettles Tifa.
As for Aerith, she is able to indulge in the fantasy of having Zack back in her life. She gets to relive small moments, dates she once had with Zack, in special places. She gets to do this with Cloud, and to make the point clear, she is very quick to bring up Zack with Cloud on first meeting.
Like Cloud not being able to indulge in a certain fantasy with Tifa, Aerith can’t actually live out her true fantasy, being with Zack, because Cloud isn’t Zack.
This living in respective fantasy worlds of their own making is what makes their relationship both beautiful, but bitterly tragic.
Because at just the moment where Aerith herself starts to want to start a relationship with Cloud that is separate from the man he is trying to be, to “know the real Cloud”, fate intervenes and Aerith is killed.
But before all this there are already moments where Cloud is able to slowly move past his initial mercenary facade, and be a true friend to Aerith. This is the case with all the relationships he is able to forge in Rebirth. He is capable of being this way with Tifa, Barret, Nanaki, and Yuffie.
The scene on the beach between the two of them illustrates this. Cloud expresses to Aerith that whatever she ends up deciding in respect to her future, he’ll be there for her. He’s saying that not as her bodyguard. But as a friend. A friend who has been able to recognise what Aerith is, and what she isn’t.
Perhaps another angle to the tragedy is, Cloud is able to come to know Aerith, the real Aerith, but Aerith herself doesn’t have the time to be able to find the real Cloud.
Once you no longer live in a fantasy, what you have left is reality.
For Aerith, I believe the reality is she was never able to stop loving Zack. She never had any resolution to their relationship. One day, he was just gone… her heart aches for him, and Zack’s entire motivational drive in Rebirth is to both save, and reunite with her. We the audience know this. Aerith doesn’t. Things will almost certainly change if and when Aerith is able to discover that this is what Zack has been doing.
And for Cloud, real Cloud, when he’s no longer living in his own illusionary world… there’s Tifa.
It’s always been Tifa.
I’m excited for more interesting insight from the developers going forward, what they’ve already said is very much just confirming what’s already presented in the games.
I’ll probably pop back if there’s anything interesting that comes out from the Ultimania’s.
thetriplerhyme
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- thetriplerhyme
- it was @insanehobbit who says it on her thumbler that if you look into their context C/A might have a romantic elements but look into the context of narrative ultimately reveal that they aren’t quite right for each other, and in each other, they’re actually searching for someone else.
Aerith is able to live his lost time / moments when Zack died through Cloud
Cloud is able to fulfill his inner desires to be strong like a soldier --> his idea of a strong to protect TIFA
but still if you summarize it its fake / not true there will always be barrier or a hallow emptiness feeling because it initially for someone else.
my case this is not needed the moment he have with Aerith is already enough to give him aspects of her. She's someone he needed to protect as promise to Zack and comrade of course.
I really hate maiden how they 'portray Zack there' most of C/A believe in that how Aerith rejected Zack there.
She wears his ribbon, wearing pink and keeps talking about him - they promise to see each other again and sadly he just .. died..
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I’m extremely curious as to what light they will shed. Particularly, we’ll have specific statements to use as evidence.
LunarTarotGirl
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Lunarae
I am with Ranma since it's one of my favorites. Uresai Yatsura I only know about Lum.
But yeah
it's very interesting to me how much people just hate the idea now and how back then no one questioned any sort of love polygons because they were pretty much everywhere. Now they're a lot more niche. Like NagiAsu for example, is known for the drama of its crazy love polygon and that is part of the appeal.
In fact, I think it's because I was a fan of the older anime that stuff like triangles never bothered me. Because I was so used to it, it's just to me another way of putting drama to a story but a rather overdone one in the 90's especially.
Still doesn't bother me honestly...but I can see how the concept is outdated and doesn't work great in the current generation of media. There is a lot of suspension of disbelief needed to sell it too.
Because yes feelings are complicated and I do believe it's possible to love more than one person at once in real life because they're complicated. I'm not against any of these ideas. But in our current reality most love polygon situations wouldn't work out as neatly or appealing as it seems to in media, it's very messy not neat or simple. In reality I think most people want to be the only one (understandable), and the idea of anything else could feel like betrayal. Not to all, but if you're trying to reach a general audience it's a safe bet many like the idea of two people only for one another over the more dramatic uncertainty of a love polygon..
So I don't think it appeals too much to today's generation. People nowadays want to relate more to media not suspend disbelief as much. Many want see themselves and their values more in the works they consume, thus they try to tie it to their reality. Being relatable is "good" and praised. The idea of people who only ever have one person in their life is very appealing, maybe because they themselves are like that or it's something they wish for in a partner.
And I think that stuff like triangles or even harems are a bit too fantasical to appeal to a larger audience nowadays especially when we consider the above. Compared to 27 years ago at least, where experiencing or living the ultimate chuunibiyou fantasy of being powerful and desirable no matter how different it was from real life or how messy it got was the way to go.
Still doesn't stop me from enjoying the drama in the media that still go that route. And I don't think there is anything inherently "wrong" with the trope. (It's just a lot more niche now)
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eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
The real Cloud probably cry if he knew Zack resent him even a little.
In JP, Zack said "すこし憎たらしいけどね (I guess I hate you a little)" 憎 (Niku) is basically hate; can be translated as detest, awful, horrid, odious.
It's not even Cloud's fault that Aerith likes him, he has clueless that she likes him (till her confession in the dream date I guess). So sure, it will make him guilty even more. He has forgotten Zack and even though his memory of Zack's death is wrong, he's already concerned to tell Aerith the truth but he doesn't do in the end (idk I think Cloud should talk about it knowing Tifa doesn't tell Aerith as he ask), and now Zack 'resent' him for that.
It's not commissioned. Benny works in Studio Benstuff and it's his boss, Akira Yamashita, who asks him to write just like him writing Yuna novellas inserted in FFX Ultimania and in FFX-2 Ultimania. Those materials are even debunked by FFX-2, FFX-2.5 novel, and FFX Will audio drama.
Boss asks his own employee. SQEX just commissioned Benstuff for Ultimania.
Why did even Kitase & Nomura ask external writer to write Yuna & Aerith's story when they haveNojima?
FFX fans even hate Nojima's novella but I dont think they say Benny's novellas are canon. So I wonder why FF7 fans can't do that.
Oh wait, not FF7 fans but Clerith shippers lol
First verse is about meeting at the street. Remind me of FF7 opening.
Second verse after chorus is her wanting to meet again in "our place". Remind me of Cloud falling through the church roof. So after the parting in the street that she just leave Cloud fighting the troopers, she hope for him to crash to the church like Zack? Weird.
And btw, her first meeting with Zack is also described as fateful encounter. This is what lead Zack to his death since he loves her and decides to return to Midgar to see her. This is also what lead Aerith to her death since she's attracted to Cloud who resembles Zack and then go in the journey to Forgotten Capital
Her future self in Remake's resolution already tell her "You can't fall in love with me. Even if you have, it's not real."
And Toriyama said she also speak to herself.
This star-crossed lovers pain me ugh.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Yes, I know the lyrics refer to Cloud specifically. I just don’t think we should be taking lyrics at face value necessarily.
But yeah, my interpretation is that it is about Zack (but she’s using Cloud as a proxy in the song) which is kinda what she’s actually doing in the story too.
hytekz
Pro Adventurer
It's hard to know if things like things are intentional or just reaching.
Yoru
Pro Adventurer
FF7 is full of promises so... it can be a lot of things.
Want me to talk about PROMISED land ?
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Imagine someone arguing that no, everyone EXCEPT Bruce is dead. That's what the LTD feels like sometimes.
So, I bring up Ataru a lot because he's canonically an idiot and in love with every pretty girl he meets. He's a deliberate bad example protagonist, and what's funny is that even he doesn't act as bad as C/A thinks Cloud should act.
There's still a place for stuff like U-Y, I mean, it's in the middle of a revival series right now- but yes, there has been a swing towards the idea that depiction of a thing without explicitly condemning it must therefore condone it, and that has rather stunted expression and media literacy as of late.
Hix
Pro Adventurer
Quite so, and this is significant in the LTD because one may note a recent trend of Clerith shippers to announce, decades down the line, they actually really love Zack. The reason for this is they believe the scene in Rebirth where Marlene jokingly tells Zack that Aerith likes Cloud, and Zack reciprocates in joking manner, is somehow an acceptance of this fact on Zack's part - vis, he instantly moves on from the girl he died trying to get back to, while giving his blessing to his friend that, had he not saved, he would have arrived back to Aerith - based on the words of a 5 year old giggly girl he only just met.
Now, anyone who genuinely believes that this is the case has clearly never played Crisis Core, nor has any objective idea who Zack is or the nature of his relationship with Aerith, but I'd also argue it requires a considerable suspension of belief to reach this conclusion under any circumstance.
Let's leave aside that Marlene and Zack's conversation is done teasingly and is stereotypical of the sort of thing girls of that age do. I think it's safe to conclude she spoke the truth regardless: Aerith likes Cloud. She says so herself. Her entire arc culminates in her realizing she does like Cloud but doesn't quite like-like him; after two whole games of continually forcing him to be the Zack she's yearned for ever since the real thing abruptly exited her life. Again, as the devs have now repeated for the slower among us, there are various different levels of relationship and liking at play in the games.
The Gold Saucer dates air these differences very openly. Cloud himself loves each and every person on said dates but only one of them does he pull in for a kiss. That's not to minimize the feelings he has for the others, but they are not the romantic love he has for Tifa alone. It's not any less, it's just...different.
Nevertheless, the Cleriths will read Aerith as liking Cloud even when the game quite clearly says otherwise, so too then they assume Zack has accepted this. I think this scene illustrates that not only does he not accept this scenario, but Cloud too will carry those words until his memory is returned and also will not accept this scenario.
There's plenty of evidence to say that it won't come to that, however. We know Aerith still loves Zack, she tells Cloud - point blank, to his face - that she does. She asks about him constantly, thinks about him unendingly, always finds her way to him somehow, directly or indirectly. Gongaga again presents the perfect example, while the party all scatter Aerith INSTANTLY manages to find Zack's parents. It's not by chance, she was looking for them, she was looking for him.
Ironically a popular CA talking point is that in AC we see Cloud "searching for Aerith", a dressed up way of saying he's ignoring his family and looking to die, but the real searching has come only from ZA. Zack hunts for Aerith across dimensions even, Aerith searches longingly for him through Cloud, continually finding herself unable to get beyond the parallels in their actions and heart.
And here's the rub: Zack won't give up that pursuit. Even in Maiden Who Travels The Planet, glorified CA fanfiction at best, he never stops trying to win back Aerith's heart. No matter what will happen, he will succeed because she wants him to. This is the pay off we'll get in part 3 that the devs have been building up to in Rebirth, the happy ending for ZA and CT that these characters have fought for all these years. Who can say it's not richly deserved?
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
LNK
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Nate
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I think the point is Marlene says it teasingly. It’s not meant to be “she likes Cloud because you were gone”.
It’s meant to be “you didn’t know because you weren’t there to see their romance.”
That being said, even the latter doesn’t really “prove” that Zack/Aerith has moved on.
It’s meant to be “you didn’t know because you weren’t there to see their romance.”
That being said, even the latter doesn’t really “prove” that Zack/Aerith has moved on.
eleamaya
Pro Adventurer
The EN translator name.
I keep seeing people dont like EN translation because it's not faithful to original JP.
And they are so many lines that are inaccurate.
Marlene say "Aerith 'suki' Cloud"
Since "suki" for 4 years old kid can be translated as "I like pancake" so Zack follow up with "hyu~ hyu~ dane?" to give connotation that what he means is "romantic suki" and Marlene repeat his line "hyu~ hyu~"
while I didn’t see the interview where toriyama said ch14 resolution was also Aerith telling herself it is not real.
If that is true, it actually makes sense for me. In Chinese translation she said “错觉”. The word choose is interesting here because it specifically means “it is a wrong impression. your brain mistakenly think something is correct but it is actually not like what you think”. I always thought she means “if cloud feels like he likes her, it is not true.(as he doesn’t like her at all)” But I think it make sense if she is talking about her own feeling, the difference between “liking” and “liking”. The feeling is there, she likes him, but not the way that she think she “likes” him.
It could be just something accidentally added to the translation though.
EDIt: I think the Chinese translation for FF7re is on the point…a lot of time it looks like word to word translation so it doesn’t sounds natural. But it gets most of the information correctly without adding translator’s interpretation at all. it doesn’t work well sometimes like in Tifa’s date it is literally the worst translation I have ever seen…
If that is true, it actually makes sense for me. In Chinese translation she said “错觉”. The word choose is interesting here because it specifically means “it is a wrong impression. your brain mistakenly think something is correct but it is actually not like what you think”. I always thought she means “if cloud feels like he likes her, it is not true.(as he doesn’t like her at all)” But I think it make sense if she is talking about her own feeling, the difference between “liking” and “liking”. The feeling is there, she likes him, but not the way that she think she “likes” him.
It could be just something accidentally added to the translation though.
EDIt: I think the Chinese translation for FF7re is on the point…a lot of time it looks like word to word translation so it doesn’t sounds natural. But it gets most of the information correctly without adding translator’s interpretation at all. it doesn’t work well sometimes like in Tifa’s date it is literally the worst translation I have ever seen…
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