SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[CldS7]

See, I feel like Tifa's importance to the story is being highlighted earlier because otherwise she would be in the backseat of these games for like 7-8 years, that's a lot of time for one of the games two heroines to start shining.

This doesnt make any sense lmfao. She got deliberately forced out of the lifestream scene in Rebirth because she's going to go back in during the next game. Idk how you can you think because she has focus in Rebirth she is getting nothing in the next game now??? Thats like apples to oranges when the whole set up in Rebirth in Tifa saving Cloud looool????

 

[CldS7]

damn I just read those last 6 pages....

some of your arguements got me very fucking suspicious LMFAO

 

[abzy1200]

damn I just read those last 6 pages....

some of your arguements got me very fucking suspicious LMFAO

I swear on my life I'm not a Clerith lmao.

This doesnt make any sense lmfao. She got deliberately forced out of the lifestream scene in Rebirth because she's going to go back in during the next game. Idk how you can you think because she has focus in Rebirth she is getting nothing in the next game now??? Thats like apples to oranges when the whole set up in Rebirth in Tifa saving Cloud looool????

I said this in reply to someone saying they added in lots of moments between Cloud and Tifa in the re;trilogy. It's not that I think Tifa will be excluded from the lifestream, that wasn't what I was trying to say. I was just saying that it isn't going to be the plot twist is used to be, because for that to happen Tifa would be sidelined for about 8 years in the trilogy, they are spreading out the story instead of it being that plot twist, so I didn't think it was a case of "If Clerith was going to be canon, why did they give Cloti so much earlier on?".

In retrospect, I don't think there's much to worry about.

 

[Ryeleigh]

In retrospect, I don't think there's much to worry about.

By the way, I forgot to mention, but when interpreting a work of fiction, it helps to look at the entire context instead of hyper-focusing on singular scenes or words. But it's good to hear that you're not worried anymore.

 

[CldS7]

I swear on my life I'm not a Clerith lmao.

I said this in reply to someone saying they added in lots of moments between Cloud and Tifa in the re;trilogy. It's not that I think Tifa will be excluded from the lifestream, that wasn't what I was trying to say. I was just saying that it isn't going to be the plot twist is used to be, because for that to happen Tifa would be sidelined for about 8 years in the trilogy, they are spreading out the story instead of it being that plot twist, so I didn't think it was a case of "If Clerith was going to be canon, why did they give Cloti so much earlier on?".

In retrospect, I don't think there's much to worry about.

I mean the plot twist is literally going to focus more on the fact that Cloud did everything cause he was in love with Tifa and thought he had to become a soldier because thats what he thought she wanted

thats why Nojima has recently written a novel on Cloud and also TOTP for Tifa because everything resolves around the promise.

Cloud becomes a Soldier because he wants to become "someone special for Tifa"

Tifa realises she "likes likes Cloud and its the type of like that makes you want to spend the rest of your days with them"

instead of it being just implied in the OG, we're literally getting this spelt out to us because this is what so much of the background outside game lore has built up recently

 

[Sacky]

I swear on my life I'm not a Clerith lmao.

I said this in reply to someone saying they added in lots of moments between Cloud and Tifa in the re;trilogy. It's not that I think Tifa will be excluded from the lifestream, that wasn't what I was trying to say. I was just saying that it isn't going to be the plot twist is used to be, because for that to happen Tifa would be sidelined for about 8 years in the trilogy, they are spreading out the story instead of it being that plot twist, so I didn't think it was a case of "If Clerith was going to be canon, why did they give Cloti so much earlier on?".

In retrospect, I don't think there's much to worry about.

We believe you buuuut random question what do you think the song Hollow is about? /jk

 

[abzy1200]

We believe you buuuut random question what do you think the song Hollow is about? /s

Well, I don't really think it's the Clerith anthem like some claim, the lines from Hollow and No Promises to Keep; "This time I will never let, you go" and "Take my hand, and never let me go" Just had my mind going in circles. Same with the "Had I realized. Had I thought it through. Would you be here in my embrace?"

Now to actually answer the question you asked. Personally, I have never been good at interpreting things in media, English is one of my worst subjects. So I tend to have surface level views of stuff unless I have somebody else to comprehensively break it down for me. I definitely used to think it was heavily Clerith, but after Cloud saying "How could I forget...... he was my friend.....It's hollowing me out" and stuff like that, I think it's clear enough to me that it's about Zack.

I hope I have that right anyway.

I mean the plot twist is literally going to focus more on the fact that Cloud did everything cause he was in love with Tifa and thought he had to become a soldier because thats what he thought she wanted

let's hope so. The lifestream sequence might just be my favourite moment in the original, so I was just extra worried in regards to it.

Again, looking at the bigger picture, you're probably right.

 

[Sacky]

Well, I don't really think it's the Clerith anthem like some claim, the lines from Hollow and No Promises to Keep; "This time I will never let, you go" and "Take my hand, and never let me go" Just had my mind going in circles. Same with the "Had I realized. Had I thought it through. Would you be here in my embrace?"

Now to actually answer the question you asked. Personally, I have never been good at interpreting things in media, English is one of my worst subjects. So I tend to have surface level views of stuff unless I have somebody else to comprehensively break it down for me. I definitely used to think it was heavily Clerith, but after Cloud saying "How could I forget...... he was my friend.....It's hollowing me out" and stuff like that, I think it's clear enough to me that it's about Zack.

I hope I have that right anyway.

let's hope so. The lifestream sequence might just be my favourite moment in the original, so I was just extra worried in regards to it.

Again, looking at the bigger picture, you're probably right.

Basically, song lyrics are rarely explained by the people who made the song
Lyrics are always ambigious until said otherwise. In which case they actually said the lyrics are ambigious so that
was something unexpected from devs who rarely explain stuff in detail.

 

[abzy1200]

In which case they actually said the lyrics are ambigious so that
was something unexpected from devs who rarely explain stuff in detail.

They said the song was from Cloud's perspective, didn't they? I think that's the most we got from them in regards to it.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Can I dm you about this? I promise I won't barrage you haha. It relates to my gf having anxiety. I'd appreciate some input

Please, feel free. I can't claim I'm an expert but I'll do my best to help.

Kingdom Hearts is an AU. Dissidia almost implies that they get plucked from their respective games, then take part in Dissidia, then are placed back in their games with no memory of what happened. But then they remember if they’re called back (Dissidia NT).

Thing is, Dissidia isn’t gonna get into the nitty gritty of canon events for each game so they need to come up with short and simple things so that players can glean whatever they need to about these characters to understand the functioning story.

If you’re a new player and haven’t played OG FF7, the game needs to fast track Cloud and Tifa’s relationship so that it can at least work within the bounds of Dissidia’s story. So just quickly calling her “Nakama” or childhood friend makes for a short and simple introduction for who she is as she pertains to Cloud, Dissidia isn’t gonna bog itself down with a play-by-play of how exactly Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is for two reasons. It’s irrelevant to Dissidia’s story… and also because then it spoils the OG for any new players that might be interested as a result of Dissidia.

Does that make sense? That was a bit long-winded.

Yeah, Dissidia is at least tangentially canon to all the games it references in that each character is supposed to be the same person as from their game, not someone with the same face but different backstory (Like in Kingdom Hearts, for example). In old Star Wars terms it would be considered secondary canon, more or less in that where it doesn't contradict the original games, it's allowed to stand.
In that sense Cloud's story is very interesting as he initially starts off on the Chaos side, doesn't care apart from the fact that Sephiroth is there now and he doesn't like it. Then he learns Tifa is around and Sephiroth wants to fight her. He IMMEDIATELY turns traitor, fights Sephiroth to save Tifa, then goes to try and kill Chaos on his own to stop the cycle so Tifa won't get hurt. As he lays dying, he begs Cosmos to protect Tifa. This causes her to claim him for the next round so they can fight side by side together... only Tifa has sacrificed herself in a bid to help the other warriors of light have a chance of winning the next round of the cycle.
Next Cycle, Warrior of Light Cloud is adrift, knowing he has something to fight for, but unable to remember what it is, knowing it was here and now it's gone.

Which is not canon to ff7. It'd be like quoting Maiden

It's more canon than Maiden, I think, in that it's still a recognized part of the continuity of FF -Gilgamesh has a continuity between 5, Dissidia, and Paradise, whereas Maiden does not appear to be in it at all any more.

 

[Empyrea]

… that’s kind of disappointing. Weren’t other JRPGs at the time doing class specializations? I wouldn’t know, I only got into JRPGs over the last 10 years. I really thought there was a good reason to use Aerith when possible since she’s the only person who thematically looks like a magic user.

14 year old me used Aerith because I thought she was the other main character (I had an obsession to use the main characters at all possible times back then). As soon as I found out she's not coming back, I restarted the game and switched her out for Tifa and never looked back. I just made up for losing a healer (her limit) by attaching Cure to everyone.

 

[Stiggie]

Yeah, let’s be real. Aerith asked Cloud to sit next to him, which he didn’t do. And then later, he shows a comforting and somewhat romantic gesture because he knows she is sad about Zack.

With Tifa, she says “maybe I’m reading too much into it” but Cloud’s like “Nope.” And then he straight up kisses her.

One of these unequivocally romantic. The other is… potentially romantic.

In general we could say that if we take the max amount of wiggle room per ship we see the same pattern, the high affection versions of Cloud with Tifa are 100% confirmed without a doubt romantic. Meanwhile their "low affection" dynamic still highly implied near certain romance. With still 100% certain romance coming from Tifa and a seemingly equally interested Cloud, but ok, if we're going to be highly skeptical we MIGHT be able to read some sort of "not meant to be more than friends" thing there.

Meanwhile with Aerith the "low-affection" version is just 100% platonic just friends with Cloud showing zero interest in her, being straight up unkind, and cutting her off at every step, and Aerith essentially just using him as a Zack stand in. While the "high affection version" is basically the same, but with the slightest wiggle room of "oh, he might have warmed up slightly to it and at least be not TOTALLY against the idea", and Aerith MIGHT be seeing Cloud for himself without it being her lying to herself.

So you'd need to take the absolute worst version of Cloud and Tifa if you want wiggle room, and the absolute best versions of Cloud and Aerith. Pretty sure that's intentional. It just screams "yeah, ok, if you want to live in a delusion and you really twist the game into that shape you still won't get your outcome but we'll leave you enough room that you can keep fantasizing. But if you just play the game....well, there's a reason you're not even getting an optional kissing scene".

By the way, I forgot to mention, but when interpreting a work of fiction, it helps to look at the entire context instead of hyper-focusing on singular scenes or words. But it's good to hear that you're not worried anymore.

It also helps to keep in minds that this isn't a romantic comedy. The story is about more than just romance and in general it's not a good idea to look at a scene and go "which ship are they trying to service here" as if that's all they're trying to do, or even the main thing.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[Jane Fane]

Well, I had my own initial concerns about the upcoming LS scene, but not because I thought they were going to try and shoehorn Aerith into it. I just thought they might convolute the hell out of it, vacuuming up all the emotional impact in favor of more plot complication. Because damn, if they were willing to do that to Aerith's death, what's to stop them from doing it to anything else?

But Gongaga was very straightforward, so I can only hope they're keeping in that lane. And in general, they haven't yet missed the mark with any of Cloud and Tifa's emotional beats. All of the scenes involving their past (The Promise, Nibelheim chapter and flashbacks, Tifa's trial, etc.) have been great. LS should (and WILL ) join the club.

 

[CldS7]

Well, I had my own initial concerns about the upcoming LS scene, but not because I thought they were going to try and shoehorn Aerith into it. I just thought they might convolute the hell out of it, vacuuming up all the emotional impact in favor of more plot complication. Because damn, if they were willing to do that to Aerith's death, what's to stop them from doing it to anything else?

But Gongaga was very straightforward, so I can only hope they're keeping in that lane. And in general, they haven't yet missed the mark with any of Cloud and Tifa's emotional beats. All of the scenes involving their past (The Promise, Nibelheim chapter and flashbacks, Tifa's trial, etc.) have been great. LS should (and WILL ) join the club.

Exactly. My issue was that they'd somehow turn it into this convoluted thing where we see boss battles, both Zack Aerith show up for certain parts and then Seph would appear for a bit and there'd be another boss battle. Not that Tifa would ever be replaced when the game double downs on that even more

 

[Stiggie]

Well, I had my own initial concerns about the upcoming LS scene, but not because I thought they were going to try and shoehorn Aerith into it. I just thought they might convolute the hell out of it, vacuuming up all the emotional impact in favor of more plot complication. Because damn, if they were willing to do that to Aerith's death, what's to stop them from doing it to anything else?

See, now this is a fear I can get behind.

 

[Sacky]

Well, I had my own initial concerns about the upcoming LS scene, but not because I thought they were going to try and shoehorn Aerith into it. I just thought they might convolute the hell out of it, vacuuming up all the emotional impact in favor of more plot complication. Because damn, if they were willing to do that to Aerith's death, what's to stop them from doing it to anything else?

But Gongaga was very straightforward, so I can only hope they're keeping in that lane. And in general, they haven't yet missed the mark with any of Cloud and Tifa's emotional beats. All of the scenes involving their past (The Promise, Nibelheim chapter and flashbacks, Tifa's trial, etc.) have been great. LS should (and WILL ) join the club.

i think with the reaction from Aeriths death though not as outwardly bad as i thought people would be?. They will make sure the lifestream will be the best possible scene since Most peoples favourite scenes were either Lifestream or Aeriths death for most memorable and iconic

 

[GamerSkull]

To be honest, I’m not super worried about the LS scene because the devs have said it’s their favorite. They may add more but I still think it will ultimately be straightforward.

My fear is the ending, because that’s usually where they jump the shark.

But everything before that, I don’t think will be that bad.

 

[nars305]

You're right. Though it's still a matter of debate as to it's canonicity within each individual instalment that it borrows from, Dissidia is itself canon and a full Final Fantasy - as it were.

Regarding the subject of "nakama" though, it should come as no surprise that the word has multiple interpretations based on the context.

For instance, in Dissidia 012 Cloud asks Cosmos to "heal my nakama" in reference to Tifa. It wasn't a moment where he was sitting down trying to discuss the minutia of his relationship with Tifa. He wasn't even talking to Tifa, but to Cosmos. One can suggest perhaps he was too embarrassed to say "lover" or "girlfriend" or the like, but it was hardly a moment in which the relationship between Cloud and Tifa is made or broken either way.

Now, when Cloud calls Aerith the same thing, the context is entirely different. We've just had the Sector 5 dream date, an entire recreation of the same date in the same location as Aerith had in Crisis Core, but with Zack. Her behaviour comes across as weird to Cloud, who comments as much on a number of occasions.

Events don't play out as they did in Crisis Core - one will note however that the game goes along with the illusion, classifying this as a "Zack chapter," his face appearing on the save file and the entire scene skipped if one switches Zack off from the menu - and the date doesn't work, Cloud can't be made into Zack no matter how much she tries.

Finally, in the church, Cloud calls her a nakama - or, in high affection, says they'll hang out together again - to which Aerith is disappointed and leads to her admitting that she is unsure of her feelings for Cloud. It's liking, for sure, but it's not quite like liking after all.

The context of this nakama is radically different. Now Cloud is addressing Aerith directly after an entire chapter seemingly dedicated to providing closure for the two, and in particular, Aerith. This sequence serves to define Aerith's relationship with Cloud as having gone from strangers to solid friends in a few short weeks. In this context, the word nakama was used deliberately by the devs to enhance that definition.

Whereas in the case of Dissidia the word nakama was not the focus of the scene, here the word lies at the heart of what the entire scene is about - thus it works and ultimately remains the same in both high and low affections, the narrative flows well into either so long as one remembers that this is definitively Aerith's moment of emotional closure, just as it's about to physically be so also.

I personally feel like mulling over “nakama” is kind of pointless (not directed at you, just in general people talking about it) because there are more telling things to observe in that final date. However, on the same hand I understand why these small things are discussed.

Regardless of nakama, Aerith says she likes Cloud. Despite the fact that she doesn’t know which it is, this evokes no special response from Cloud aside from “you’re acting weird.” There’s no sharing of mutual feelings. I mean I feel like rather than nakama, “you’re acting weird” is the real response. Aerith just expressed her feelings, but Cloud did not continue that conversation.

From the beginning of the date and up to this point, nothing makes me feel this is romantic. I mean the photographer really hammers it in. So the only interpretation that was left to me personally was Aerith is happy that Cloud would spend more time with her. This isn’t just another time she dragged him around, he would continue to be friends with her. They are all on this journey to defeat Sephiroth and that’s why they are together. I think Aerith was happy to know that in the end, that wouldn’t have disappeared, and she’d still have friends afterwards and not be alone again had she lived.

I genuinely don’t understand how people walk away from that scene and classify it as romantic. It is a heartbreaking scene that gets overshadowed by people desperately wanting validation of Cloud and Aerith having mutual feelings. It literally shows the opposite. I don’t want to be harsh and we’re all entitled to interpretations, I just think it’s an amazing scene that is trying to show something in how it was crafted.

 

[abzy1200]

I genuinely don’t understand how people walk away from that scene and classify it as romantic

Yeah, there's no possible world where "I like you, but there's liking, and then there's liking" and "Now I know where we stand" isn't a friendzone of some kind. Almost that whole sequence was a rough blow for Clerith.

 

[Sacky]

Yeah, there's no possible world where "I like you, but there's liking, and then there's liking" and "Now I know where we stand" isn't a friendzone of some kind. Almost that whole sequence was a rough blow for Clerith.

ive seen an intpretation that Aerith doesnt want to admit she likes him because she knows shes gonna die. But her words "at least i know now where you and i stand i mean" in both versions is just not something you would say if you took that response as a confirmation of romance from Cloud. "you really mean it" or "now i know how you feel about me" sounds more appropriate if that was the case

 

[nars305]

"at least i know now where you and i stand i mean" in both versions is just not something you would say if you took that response as a confirmation of romance

I feel like you also wouldn’t go on to say you don’t know which like it is either. If anything, would this not be Aerith turning down Cloud then? Seems more like. (But I don’t believe Cloud reciprocated any feelings).

 

[Ryushikaze]

Exactly. My issue was that they'd somehow turn it into this convoluted thing where we see boss battles, both Zack Aerith show up for certain parts and then Seph would appear for a bit and there'd be another boss battle. Not that Tifa would ever be replaced when the game double downs on that even more

You know what I can see them doing? Splitting up the sequence so that it happens in between Magnus Materia sections, then finishing the chapter with a long section that's just Cloud and Tifa and bringing Cloud back.

 

[Yoru]

I think you're all too pessimistic with the future LS scene or the ending.

People tend to forget there is another game coming and it's not because Aerith moment was changed for now that we won't see anything related again. Everybody knows what was happening at the end of Rebirth. So they changed it. Why ? Because from the very start of the project they always said the same thing. They want to make you feel something, they want to re-tell this story and make you feel the same emotions. But how can you do it when you already know what's in store ? You change things to change expectations.

I'm telling you right know. We're gonna see Aerith and we're gonna cry. Because we thought we could save her this time, but no, they will take her from us again. And it's this hope we had during 2 games that will create this feeling of loss and sadness. Same feelings as we had in 1997, but not with the same execution.

As for the LS scene. Nojima is building the shit out of it since Remake. All the forshadowing is not for nothing. It's the devs favorite moment and they know too well why. They know it's Tifa and Cloud moment. Aerith can't do shit to help except showing Tifa the way. And after ? Entering Cloud mind palace and watch all the Tifa's posters ? Pretty rude. So yeah, I'm pretty sure it will stay the same as OG, just extended (we can see their Midgar flat in Tifa LS from chapter 9)

 

[GamerSkull]

I think you're all too pessimistic with the future LS scene or the ending.

People tend to forget there is another game coming and it's not because Aerith moment was changed for now that we won't see anything related again. Everybody knows what was happening at the end of Rebirth. So they changed it. Why ? Because from the very start of the project they always said the same thing. They want to make you feel something, they want to re-tell this story and make you feel the same emotions. But how can you do it when you already know what's in store ? You change things to change expectations.

I'm telling you right know. We're gonna see Aerith and we're gonna cry. Because we thought we could save her this time, but no, they will take her from us again. And it's this hope we had during 2 games that will create this feeling of loss and sadness. Same feelings as we had in 1997, but not with the same execution.

As for the LS scene. Nojima is building the shit out of it since Remake. All the forshadowing is not for nothing. It's the devs favorite moment and they know too well why. They know it's Tifa and Cloud moment. Aerith can't do shit to help except showing Tifa the way. And after ? Entering Cloud mind palace and watch all the Tifa's posters ? Pretty rude. So yeah, I'm pretty sure it will stay the same as OG, just extended (we can see their Midgar flat in Tifa LS from chapter 9)

This has just conjured in me an image of Tifa invading Cloud’s palace Persona 5-style to steal his heart.

What would her codename be?

I know her aesthetic would totally be a Dolphin though.

 

[abzy1200]

So they changed it. Why ? Because from the very start of the project they always said the same thing. They want to make you feel something, they want to re-tell this story and make you feel the same emotions. But how can you do it when you already know what's in store ? You change things to change expectations.

I don't really agree. For me atleast, I was still heartbroken and felt like tearing up playing that Jenova fight, atleast while her theme was playing, even though I had already seen it happen in the original 3 times.