SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Sacky]

You want to change it that way in part 3
I know you're CA, so shut up

dude chill the hell out read the post and they say thats their FEAR the thing THEY DONT WANT

 

[Hellenic]

Also where Aerith witnesses Cloud almost killing her best friend

See i don't think anyone else in the party actually saw what Cloud almost did to Tifa there. Aerith and Yuffie were behind that large reactor pipe that fell down while Barret, Red and Cait were below them. At best i think they just saw her fall down to the pool, but nothing more.

Sure it's possible i suppose, but considering how the rest of the party don't really react to it at all after makes me think it was just something they experienced between each other. I don't think anyone else besides Tifa or Aerith in the party would even be willing to travel with Cloud after, if they felt like he was a potential danger to them all.

 

[Sacky]

This is another place where they could show the death yeah. The return to Forgotten Capital and hopefully with a proper dungeon experience this time.

i just see a really powerful scene of Cloud being at forgotten capital reliving the death then crying while the party hugs and comforts him "nice panning shot of the whole group"

 

[nars305]

I really don’t know how they’ll bring Aerith’s death to light for Cloud. I agree that it has to be before the LS scene because Cloud is meant to be fixed by the end of it.

I don’t think it really matters if Aerith is part of the reason for Cloud’s mental collapse, so long as the LS sequence is only for Cloud and Tifa. As long as that remains intimate and just between them, it will convey what it needs to.

It doesn’t seem like a stretch to believe Sephiroth will taunt him about her death, he already does the same about Tifa’s scar/if she’s real.

And like I've said before, if Clouds' mind breaks after his delusions about Aerith are torn apart in the Northern Crater, then that's a heavy Clerith talking point. Two times Cloud sees Tifa "die" and yet it's only after Aerith died that he went to these lengths not to accept that Aerith is gone.

Can’t it be said that Cloud’s mind did break due to him failing Tifa? Simply FAILING Tifa fucks with Cloud’s head to the point where he can’t even recall that he basically killed Sephiroth at that same time. Then in reverse, Tifa is the only one who can pull Cloud out of his anguish.

Cloud losing his mind when he realizes Aerith died wouldn’t prove anything aside from what is already known. He cares for Aerith and he feels like he can’t protect anyone. Obviously her death is deeply traumatizing since he was standing right in front of her, under Sephiroth’s control, and she was murdered right in his face. It’s entirely understandable for this to shatter his mind.

His mental instability is not a love confession. He is a character with massive PTSD. It’s a joke to think Cloud would care less about Tifa’s death. Especially when his speech is still in the game. I believe Cloud wants to believe he cried to reject the fact that he is Sephiroth’s puppet.

 

[GamerSkull]

As far as the snowboarding in the OG is concerned….

Let’s be fair, it’s not like they do it to have fun. They do it to progress to the next location and it was the easiest/fastest way to do so.

 

[Hellenic]

BTW, is it just me or are the Cleriths on social media sites really going hard with trying to claim victory with half understood Ultimania snippets? At least I've seen a couple of accounts spamming the same pictures and talking points with almost zero interaction.

Isn't this something they do with each Ultimania release one way or another? Same old shit to me at this point.

 

[nars305]

What I have seen is a lot of Advent Children and OTWTAS dissecting.

 

[GamerSkull]

Isn't this something they do with each Ultimania release one way or another? Same old shit to me at this point.

It’s gonna be quite the rug pull for them when Part 3 comes out.

 

[Yoru]

I don't really agree with the whole "Clerith wins because he doesn't give a shit about Tifa" thing.

Because if the game tells us anything, it's that Tifa's death is the only one to get a specific reaction from Cloud. So she's special in her own way.

What did Cloud do when he saw Aerith die? He created a new memory. Something we've already seen in the past. That's exactly what he did with Zack. Tifa's death is the only one that triggered Cloud's catatonic state. It's the one thing that simply stops him from functioning as a human being and moving on. It's literally his reason for living that disappears when Tifa's gone.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

 

[Hellenic]

I don't see the difference from before

Also, re NC and LS sequences: for the NC scene, I don't think there will be anything else than the Nibelheim incident at play. Because it's very important to convey to the player that what makes Cloud break is the fact that Tifa doubts him. Because I feel that this sentence "it's only your opinion that counts" that makes Tifa realise that she needs the truth, that she wants to believe in him. It is their bond being tested while they're being manipulated and gaslit by Sephiroth and... it does not break. Cloud breaks, but not their bond and this is why she decides to search for him after this. If you put Aerith's death here, it will muddle the message as well as the message that their bond is being tested, it makes less sense for Tifa to search for Cloud after this. Despite everything, you have to show that the connection is still here for this scene to work, as well as the following ones.

For the Lifestream sequence, I'm still surprised at how many fans don't get that the first part of this sequence is a huge love confession (the second part being the resolution of the Nibelheim incident); I mean it's even said that this is where they realise their feelings for each other there but people stubbornely refuse to take this into account when crafting theories. This cannot be a group project, at most we'll have Aerith (and Zack?) guiding them in the Lifestream, protecting them, but that's as far as it can go. Yes, the Lifestream scene will definitely be expanded upon; it is not a surprise as we see Tifa being aware of one of the core elements, ie Cloud actually trying to help her in Mt Nibel when they were kids - that one memory that PROVED that Cloud was the true Cloud, which means they'll have to rely on something else now to prove that. We also see the Black Whispers attacking Cloud's memories in the Lifestream at the end. To me that shows expansion of the scene with new additions, however as the Weapons fled the place of the Lifestream memories, one has to wonder what happens then to Cloud's memories. IMHO they will have to talk a lot more about memories and their feelings associated, Cloud's hopes and dreams (Cosmo Canyon speaks a lot about the essence of the Lifestream being more than just memories, so I think we'll see that). I have said it before but to me, CT is probably one of SE's greatest love stories and we will see that being developped inside the Lifestream.

On a side note I was watching Welonz yesterday playing and she said that Cloud and Tifa never really had a conversation about their fight in Kalm, that the topic had been avoided so far. And yes, of course as a new player you can't understand this, but the Kalm fight is a setup not only for CT to open up about each other in Rebirth, but also for the NC and LS scenes - I realised this as she was talking about it.

Honestly for Aerith's death, I see it more as an aknowledgement later on when they return to the city of the Ancients and we can have her death and burial for real, that Cloud admits he imagined having saved her when it was not the case. Because, it is what happened there. The same way we need to have an aknowledgement on how Zack's death traumatised him as well as what happened after Cloud beat Sephiroth - this part was left out in the OG outside the Lifestream scene because it had no place there, and I feel the same towards Aerith's death.

Yeah in hindsight, maybe the truth about the death does fit the return to Forgotten Capital better than North Crater, which would probably be better left of as a focus on the Nibelheim story.

 

[GamerSkull]

Not surprised at the cope. Grasping at the slightest thing in order for “proof”.

If CA fans think they won, well… they’re gonna have a hard time with Part 3.

 

[nars305]

I don't really agree with the whole "Clerith wins because he doesn't give a shit about Tifa" thing.

Because if the game tells us anything, it's that Tifa's death is the only one to get a specific reaction from Cloud. So she's special in her own way.

What did Cloud do when he saw Aerith die? He created a new memory. Something we've already seen in the past. That's exactly what he did with Zack. Tifa's death is the only one that triggered Cloud's catatonic state. It's the one thing that simply stops him from functioning as a human being and moving on. It's literally his reason for living that disappears when Tifa's gone.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

Cloud literally needs Tifa, and she is always there for him. That is why I will ride or die for them.

I think maybe the arguments from the other side are pretty effective at gas lighting lmao.

 

[Yoru]

Also, re NC and LS sequences: for the NC scene, I don't think there will be anything else than the Nibelheim incident at play. Because it's very important to convey to the player that what makes Cloud break is the fact that Tifa doubts him. Because I feel that this sentence "it's only your opinion that counts" that makes Tifa realise that she needs the truth, that she wants to believe in him. It is their bond being tested while they're being manipulated and gaslit by Sephiroth and... it does not break. Cloud breaks, but not their bond and this is why she decides to search for him after this. If you put Aerith's death here, it will muddle the message as well as the message that their bond is being tested, it makes less sense for Tifa to search for Cloud after this. Despite everything, you have to show that the connection is still here for this scene to work, as well as the following ones.

Wait, I think we may be onto something.

Sephiroth could totally use Aerith death at this moment. But not how we think. He doesn't want to break Cloud, he wants Tifa to doubt about him ! And showing her that Cloud is really strange about it and doesn't care about Aerith gone will reinforce this idea of Muppet. That's HER breaking point ! The few seconds where she's not sure who this Cloud is, and when Cloud loses it.

 

[abzy1200]

Ok now I regret what I said lmao.

You're way too pessimistic about it, and I'm sorry but you're too severe with the Re-trilogy. It still is a fantastic work and a love letter to Final Fantasy VII. It's a project like we have never seen and we'll maybe never will see again. No company in the world will have the balls to make a 10+ year trilogy with a narrative having its conclusion in the last game. They put money in this like there is no tomorrow.

And again, stop complaining about this "multiverse timeline shit kindgom hearts" because it's not. Nojima is doing FFX all over again. There is only one world and they didn't ruin anything. I'm sorry but you're being a cry baby here. No offense.

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but they literally butchered one of the most iconic moments in gaming, even going so far as to completely change what it was supposed to represent in favor of theory fodder.

I can't help but be nervous about later decisions judging by the fact they were okay with making such a bad change.

I know it's not multiverses. I know it will not end in something like that, it's just stuff to keep the player interested in a story they've already seen, but it just feels insulting to the originals legacy and everything it represents to me.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

That's what makes me so nervous!!

This game was supposed to be Cleriths chance to prove itself, yet it failed, and Cloti was exemplified so much. It feels too good to be true!

His mental instability is not a love confession. He is a character with massive PTSD. It’s a joke to think Cloud would care less about Tifa’s death. Especially when his speech is still in the game. I believe Cloud wants to believe he cried to reject the fact that he is Sephiroth’s puppet.

Of course, I think so too, but it feels like fuel for the LTD. A chance for Square Enix to play coy one last time by making it easily interpreted as him loving Aerith more, especially to newer fans who aren't informed on the topic.

and let me reiterate, I don't actually think Cloud having delusions means he loves Aerith more. I'm just saying that it feels like they're throwing Cleriths some bones to ensure they don't leave for part 3.

 

[nars305]

Yeah in hindsight, maybe the truth about the death does fit the return to Forgotten Capital better than North Crater, which would probably be better left of as a focus on the Nibelheim story.

I could see it that way too. It can be a continuation of him accepting things. Also, a proper time for all of them to grieve together and not just them standing at the burial place.

Like in the end, and including the end cut scene, it seems like it becomes something they stay hush about so Cloud doesn’t lose it.

 

[Hellenic]

I do have my qualms with this story, which is they don't let big moments breathe - except for the Tifa Lifestream scene in Gongaga, rather ironically because it's a whole new scene

Yeah this was very noticeable with all the big OG moments we had here. You have the emotional moment with Dyne and Barret then the very next second Palmer is coming for another boss battle. Later a similar thing happened with Red after he learns the truth about Seto and Gi Nattak arrives to lore dump right after.

Feels like they just put the old stuff in there to please people before they wanted to quickly move onto new things. That said, i did overall like the Dyne and Barret confrontation and conclusion more here than in the OG and did enjoy the Gi and Black materia lore we got from Gi Nattak.

 

[Stiggie]

I really don’t know how they’ll bring Aerith’s death to light for Cloud. I agree that it has to be before the LS scene because Cloud is meant to be fixed by the end of it.

I don’t think it really matters if Aerith is part of the reason for Cloud’s mental collapse, so long as the LS sequence is only for Cloud and Tifa. As long as that remains intimate and just between them, it will convey what it needs to.

It doesn’t seem like a stretch to believe Sephiroth will taunt him about her death, he already does the same about Tifa’s scar/if she’s real.


Can’t it be said that Cloud’s mind did break due to him failing Tifa? Simply FAILING Tifa fucks with Cloud’s head to the point where he can’t even recall that he basically killed Sephiroth at that same time. Then in reverse, Tifa is the only one who can pull Cloud out of his anguish.

Cloud losing his mind when he realizes Aerith died wouldn’t prove anything aside from what is already known. He cares for Aerith and he feels like he can’t protect anyone. Obviously her death is deeply traumatizing since he was standing right in front of her, under Sephiroth’s control, and she was murdered right in his face. It’s entirely understandable for this to shatter his mind.

His mental instability is not a love confession. He is a character with massive PTSD. It’s a joke to think Cloud would care less about Tifa’s death. Especially when his speech is still in the game. I believe Cloud wants to believe he cried to reject the fact that he is Sephiroth’s puppet.

I don't really agree with the whole "Clerith wins because he doesn't give a shit about Tifa" thing.

Because if the game tells us anything, it's that Tifa's death is the only one to get a specific reaction from Cloud. So she's special in her own way.

What did Cloud do when he saw Aerith die? He created a new memory. Something we've already seen in the past. That's exactly what he did with Zack. Tifa's death is the only one that triggered Cloud's catatonic state. It's the one thing that simply stops him from functioning as a human being and moving on. It's literally his reason for living that disappears when Tifa's gone.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

All the comparisons of Clouds reactions to death make no sense anyway, because they all pretend that his state of mind is the same from one day to the next.

If they hadn't noticed, Cloud wasn't exactly doing fine anyway. It's not like Cloud was having a good time, then Aerith died, and Cloud breaks. No, his mental state was on a steady slow decline for a while. Something that thinking he might have killed Tifa didn't help btw, it's not like after she got back his mental state went back to before he attacked her as though nothing happened. All these things took their toll and then Aerith dies at a point where he was already so far gone that it was enough to push him over the edge.

Yeah, that's a good analogy, it's like asking why Tifas death only made him fall over while Aeriths death made him fall off the edge, when at the moment Tifa "died" he was still 20 ft removed from the ledge, while with Aerith he was already teetering.

 

[Yoru]

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but they literally butchered one of the most iconic moments in gaming, even going so far as to completely change what it was supposed to represent in favor of theory fodder.

I can't help but be nervous about later decisions judging by the fact they were okay with making such a bad change.

I know it's not multiverses. I know it will not end in something like that, it's just stuff to keep the player interested in a story they've already seen, but it just feels insulting to the originals legacy and everything it represents to me.

I see what you're trying to tell, and I'm not saying you can't think like that.

But for now, I want to look at the bigger picture and I really think that Part III will totally change how we see that scene for now. Nomura & co already kind of told us. The scene didn't really change. Just our perception of it.

Aerith is dead. In the same way. We'll just live the moment in part 3. For now you're pissed, but you'll still have it in the end. I don't really care it's not in the "same CD"' as OG.

 

[Hellenic]

You can debate on how essential the ecological aspect was to the themes of the original, but it's still a story that starts with bombing a power plant that is killing the planet by extracting the essence of life itself and turning it into power.
The point is that there is an entire universe of story potential there that flows naturally from that premise and perfectly lines up with all the events and worldbuilding that already exists in the game and that could easily resonate and amplify each other, and that this story is more topical even now than it was 27 years ago.

But instead they decided to focus on something that is very removed from human experience like destiny and alternate timelines, abstract transcendental things rather than something concrete and relatable. I find the decision to do that to be at least as perplexing as I would find the decision to make the lifestream some weird spectacle surrounding Aeriths death.

Hell, the fact that they MADE Aeriths death a spectacle despite always going on about its grounded nature shows you they're not above poisoning scenes for the sake of novelty and cheap intrigue.

I think that ultimately why the endings are like they are is because they wanted to just make some very bombastic endings that make you think for the next few years and not forget that there is another game coming out still. Also just to have each game end feel like a big final encounter for being essentially full games with a start and ending.

I don't really support their choices here, but i imagine something like this was their thought process behind them. That said they really made the Aerith death too dragged out with all the stupid 10 different wake ups and whatnot, not to mention the boss rush right after Jenova. We should've had some closure done before we jumped right into that portion too, couse after i just didn't feel anything anymore besides Tifas sadness at the very end.

 

[Hellenic]

It has nothing to do with the LS scene and the Aerith death scene
And Cloud was heartbroken because he was rejected by Tifa

Play the game again, fool

You really need to tone down the asshole mode you keep on here. Just don't say anything if you can't debate without insults.

 

[abzy1200]

And also, I hope people didn't get the impression that I don't like Nomura. That's not it. I have an appreciation for him since he did play a big part in creating the original game. It's just that he's never on the nose about things, he likes making people dig a little bit, which is what worries me that he won't let a Clerith interpretation of this game completely die.

Yeah, that's a good analogy, it's like asking why Tifas death only made him fall over while Aeriths death made him fall off the edge, when at the moment Tifa "died" he was still 20 ft removed from the ledge, while with Aerith he was already teetering.

This is a good way to explain it yeah, thanks.

Aerith is dead. In the same way. We'll just live the moment in part 3. For now you're pissed, but you'll still have it in the end. I don't really care it's not in the "same CD"' as OG.

I have no problems with changes being made to the game, nothing is ever perfect after all. I don't doubt the story will still end up at Advent Children, but I feel like the changes they have made, haven't been for the best. Aeriths death was kind of the last straw for me, such a beautiful, impactful moment that was torn apart and for what?

I do think that they have been doing a better job at showing the party grieving about Aerith, that IS a welcome change, as it was, admittedly, absent from the original and felt a bit odd.

I don't have an opposition to changes, I have an opposition to bad changes. The new stuff doesn't make me go "Oooo I wonder what will happen next?!", they make me go "why?"

But of course that's just me, people are free to enjoy the new stuff as they please.

 

[Yoru]

All the comparisons of Clouds reactions to death make no sense anyway, because they all pretend that his state of mind is the same from one day to the next.

If they hadn't noticed, Cloud wasn't exactly doing fine anyway. It's not like Cloud was having a good time, then Aerith died, and Cloud breaks. No, his mental state was on a steady slow decline for a while. Something that thinking he might have killed Tifa didn't help btw, it's not like after she got back his mental state went back to before he attacker her as though nothing happened. All these things took their toll and then Aerith dies at a point where he was already so far gone that it was enough to push him over the edge.

Yeah, that's a good analogy, it's like asking why Tifas death only made him fall over while Aeriths death made him fall off the edge, when at the moment Tifa "died" he was still 20 ft removed from the ledge, while with Aerith he was already teetering.

I disagree. The fact that Aerith's death didn't stop him from continuing his journey as if nothing had happened is quite revealing. It didn't push him over the edge. It pushed him to sweep it under the rug like he did with Zack. It's nothing new.

Yes, Cloud isn't well. He hasn't been since the beginning of FF7. But what's the one thing that allows him to pretend? Tifa. It was Tifa finding him at Midgar Station that started it all. And it's Tifa's supposed death or her doubting him at the North Crater that ends his pretence and really pushes him over the edge.

 

[nars305]

and let me reiterate, I don't actually think Cloud having delusions means he loves Aerith more. I'm just saying that it feels like they're throwing Cleriths some bones to ensure they don't leave for part 3.

I understand that SE has fueled the LTD it seems. Being new to FF7 I haven’t experienced it that much.

I think they made it clear who Cloud loves, and they made it clear who Aerith loves.

I’m pretty happy with where they took Tifa and Cloud in Rebirth. I wasn’t expecting a slow burn romance after Remake, thought it was just another “sure you can romance a girl” thing. Like Persona games where it’s not that meaningful and just something on the side.

So from the leap I felt between Remake and Rebirth as far as Cloud and Tifa go, I still have faith in SE. Tifa and Cloud’s relationship has been expanded so much outside of the game, I would be shocked if the LS scene left us disappointed. *As far as if they include Aerith, Cloud’s delusion, etc.

All that to say, could they be throwing them bones? Maybe? I don’t think it’s really all SE’s fault. Like I said, they are making the pairings very clear. It’s Cleriths who tend to distort things and muddy it up in addition to the long term ambiguity. However, the ambiguity seems to be going out the window, so it’s harder to distort.

 

[Hellenic]

i just see a really powerful scene of Cloud being at forgotten capital reliving the death then crying while the party hugs and comforts him "nice panning shot of the whole group"

I like this idea a lot.

 

[abzy1200]

I’m pretty happy with where they took Tifa and Cloud in Rebirth. I wasn’t expecting a slow burn romance after Remake, thought it was just another “sure you can romance a girl” thing. Like Persona games where it’s not that meaningful and just something on the side.

Yeah anybody who acts like Final Fantasy 7 and actual "choose your romance" games have anything in common are lying. It's so different.