SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Hellenic]

Thing is... even a flashback has nothing to do here I think. Cloud knows about loss. He experienced it again and again. His mom is dead. Avalanche is dead. Sure he loved Aerith but I don't see it as a break point. I don't know. Maybe they'll make it look good and I'll experienced it in full and will agree to their vision, but for now... meh. Aerith death has never been the FF7 main plot. I just want to let it go now and see something else.

I just don't like it when you overdo it.

It's just gonna be one of many break points there, not the only one. Sephiroth is gonna hit all the weak spots of Clouds to make him succumb fully. Aeriths death, Zack actually being the one in Nibleheim all along instead of him and losing Tifas faith in him. It all just comes crashing down at once. I don't see any other reason for making Cloud delusional about Aeriths death other than to amplify this scene.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Starting to think that person is just a troll or bot, they've had a go at me, and now their shipmates?, nah something doesn't add up. One of the worst and most toxic parts of the LTD is when people attack others for not bring "Clerith" or "Cloti" enough, it seems like a very real crusade to some where they even have to punish dissenters or doubt in the ranks

 

[Yoru]

Ok now I regret what I said lmao.

You're way too pessimistic about it, and I'm sorry but you're too severe with the Re-trilogy. It still is a fantastic work and a love letter to Final Fantasy VII. It's a project like we have never seen and we'll maybe never will see again. No company in the world will have the balls to make a 10+ year trilogy with a narrative having its conclusion in the last game. They put money in this like there is no tomorrow.

And again, stop complaining about this "multiverse timeline shit kindgom hearts" because it's not. Nojima is doing FFX all over again. There is only one world and they didn't ruin anything. I'm sorry but you're being a cry baby here. No offense.

 

[Hellenic]

Maybe a hot take and people will be pissed but for me Cloud never had a problem letting Aerith go. I'm sorry but in OG, she died and that's that. The team is sad, they "burry" her and they hardly talk about it until the end. It's the same with Advent Children. He never had a problem accepting her death. What depresses him is feeling useless and unable to save the people he loves. He couldn't save the people he loved before, and he still can't now. Basically, according to him, he hasn't evolved and is back to being a teenager lacking confidence. That's why he feels useless and undeserving of happiness. That's why he's looking for forgiveness.

Obviously they're changing things with Rebirth. Aerith became something too big to ignore. And I'm pretty sure they're gonna bring her there and there. I'm not totally okay with that. But whatever. I still think she shouldn't be here for the LS. If they really wanna push it, she should just be the one guiding Tifa to Cloud. But stay at the front door.

See i just think they portrayed the aftermath of her death pretty badly in OG. To me it makes no sense that the whole party instantly forgets what just happened and go snowboarding with no care about her for most of the game after. This is just Square making things make more sense imo. The party wouldn't be over her death THAT fast.

I very much doubt they will insert Aerith into the Lifestream sequence past the potential Tifa guiding you mention there. The rest of the sequence is for Cloud and Tifa alone and i know the devs understand that.

 

[Hellenic]

I don't think she or a flashback of her will be in the lifestream at all and the main reason is That Whole sequence is meant to be a celebration of real Cloud coming back, showing he doesn't need to be a Solider to be a hero. Its the biggest hype and feel good moment of the whole game after so much angst and suffering the characters go through. To have that moment be where Cloud starts grieving is not tonally correct. It doesn't actually help him at all to know about the death here since hes meant to not feel like he failed to piece his mind back together. Theres already so many Cloud and Tifa memories and possibly new ones to go through by the fact Seventh Heaven and Stargazer are seen in the lifestream and possibly a fight sequence since Sephiroths Whispers are interfering. Instead it would be much better if after Clouds mind is fixed when we go back to Forgotten Capital he sees the death in full and then gets to grieve, Either that or it happens earlier at crater

This is another place where they could show the death yeah. The return to Forgotten Capital and hopefully with a proper dungeon experience this time.

 

[Yoru]

See i just think they portrayed the aftermath of her death pretty badly in OG. To me it makes no sense that the whole party instantly forgets what just happened and go snowboarding with no care about her for most of the game after. This is just Square making things make more sense imo. The party wouldn't be over her death THAT fast.

I very much doubt they will insert Aerith into the Lifestream sequence past the potential Tifa guiding you mention there. The rest of the sequence is for Cloud and Tifa alone and i know the devs understand that.

People should really play FF7 again. Because yes, you're absolutely right. OG has major character and story flaws. People are really imagining things and mixing their memories with reality.

I was just pointing out that the characters have become far too important compared to their counterparts in OG and that it's impossible today to erase Aerith like they did in 1997. So I'm "scared" to see where she'll come in. But I don't like the way the discussion is going (=attacking devs and games).

The characters depiction has never been this good. And yes I really think they're reparing a ton of things in the process too.

 

[Sacky]

You want to change it that way in part 3
I know you're CA, so shut up

dude chill the hell out read the post and they say thats their FEAR the thing THEY DONT WANT

 

[Hellenic]

Also where Aerith witnesses Cloud almost killing her best friend

See i don't think anyone else in the party actually saw what Cloud almost did to Tifa there. Aerith and Yuffie were behind that large reactor pipe that fell down while Barret, Red and Cait were below them. At best i think they just saw her fall down to the pool, but nothing more.

Sure it's possible i suppose, but considering how the rest of the party don't really react to it at all after makes me think it was just something they experienced between each other. I don't think anyone else besides Tifa or Aerith in the party would even be willing to travel with Cloud after, if they felt like he was a potential danger to them all.

 

[Sacky]

This is another place where they could show the death yeah. The return to Forgotten Capital and hopefully with a proper dungeon experience this time.

i just see a really powerful scene of Cloud being at forgotten capital reliving the death then crying while the party hugs and comforts him "nice panning shot of the whole group"

 

[nars305]

I really don’t know how they’ll bring Aerith’s death to light for Cloud. I agree that it has to be before the LS scene because Cloud is meant to be fixed by the end of it.

I don’t think it really matters if Aerith is part of the reason for Cloud’s mental collapse, so long as the LS sequence is only for Cloud and Tifa. As long as that remains intimate and just between them, it will convey what it needs to.

It doesn’t seem like a stretch to believe Sephiroth will taunt him about her death, he already does the same about Tifa’s scar/if she’s real.

And like I've said before, if Clouds' mind breaks after his delusions about Aerith are torn apart in the Northern Crater, then that's a heavy Clerith talking point. Two times Cloud sees Tifa "die" and yet it's only after Aerith died that he went to these lengths not to accept that Aerith is gone.

Can’t it be said that Cloud’s mind did break due to him failing Tifa? Simply FAILING Tifa fucks with Cloud’s head to the point where he can’t even recall that he basically killed Sephiroth at that same time. Then in reverse, Tifa is the only one who can pull Cloud out of his anguish.

Cloud losing his mind when he realizes Aerith died wouldn’t prove anything aside from what is already known. He cares for Aerith and he feels like he can’t protect anyone. Obviously her death is deeply traumatizing since he was standing right in front of her, under Sephiroth’s control, and she was murdered right in his face. It’s entirely understandable for this to shatter his mind.

His mental instability is not a love confession. He is a character with massive PTSD. It’s a joke to think Cloud would care less about Tifa’s death. Especially when his speech is still in the game. I believe Cloud wants to believe he cried to reject the fact that he is Sephiroth’s puppet.

 

[GamerSkull]

As far as the snowboarding in the OG is concerned….

Let’s be fair, it’s not like they do it to have fun. They do it to progress to the next location and it was the easiest/fastest way to do so.

 

[Hellenic]

BTW, is it just me or are the Cleriths on social media sites really going hard with trying to claim victory with half understood Ultimania snippets? At least I've seen a couple of accounts spamming the same pictures and talking points with almost zero interaction.

Isn't this something they do with each Ultimania release one way or another? Same old shit to me at this point.

 

[nars305]

What I have seen is a lot of Advent Children and OTWTAS dissecting.

 

[GamerSkull]

Isn't this something they do with each Ultimania release one way or another? Same old shit to me at this point.

It’s gonna be quite the rug pull for them when Part 3 comes out.

 

[Yoru]

I don't really agree with the whole "Clerith wins because he doesn't give a shit about Tifa" thing.

Because if the game tells us anything, it's that Tifa's death is the only one to get a specific reaction from Cloud. So she's special in her own way.

What did Cloud do when he saw Aerith die? He created a new memory. Something we've already seen in the past. That's exactly what he did with Zack. Tifa's death is the only one that triggered Cloud's catatonic state. It's the one thing that simply stops him from functioning as a human being and moving on. It's literally his reason for living that disappears when Tifa's gone.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

 

[Hellenic]

I don't see the difference from before

Also, re NC and LS sequences: for the NC scene, I don't think there will be anything else than the Nibelheim incident at play. Because it's very important to convey to the player that what makes Cloud break is the fact that Tifa doubts him. Because I feel that this sentence "it's only your opinion that counts" that makes Tifa realise that she needs the truth, that she wants to believe in him. It is their bond being tested while they're being manipulated and gaslit by Sephiroth and... it does not break. Cloud breaks, but not their bond and this is why she decides to search for him after this. If you put Aerith's death here, it will muddle the message as well as the message that their bond is being tested, it makes less sense for Tifa to search for Cloud after this. Despite everything, you have to show that the connection is still here for this scene to work, as well as the following ones.

For the Lifestream sequence, I'm still surprised at how many fans don't get that the first part of this sequence is a huge love confession (the second part being the resolution of the Nibelheim incident); I mean it's even said that this is where they realise their feelings for each other there but people stubbornely refuse to take this into account when crafting theories. This cannot be a group project, at most we'll have Aerith (and Zack?) guiding them in the Lifestream, protecting them, but that's as far as it can go. Yes, the Lifestream scene will definitely be expanded upon; it is not a surprise as we see Tifa being aware of one of the core elements, ie Cloud actually trying to help her in Mt Nibel when they were kids - that one memory that PROVED that Cloud was the true Cloud, which means they'll have to rely on something else now to prove that. We also see the Black Whispers attacking Cloud's memories in the Lifestream at the end. To me that shows expansion of the scene with new additions, however as the Weapons fled the place of the Lifestream memories, one has to wonder what happens then to Cloud's memories. IMHO they will have to talk a lot more about memories and their feelings associated, Cloud's hopes and dreams (Cosmo Canyon speaks a lot about the essence of the Lifestream being more than just memories, so I think we'll see that). I have said it before but to me, CT is probably one of SE's greatest love stories and we will see that being developped inside the Lifestream.

On a side note I was watching Welonz yesterday playing and she said that Cloud and Tifa never really had a conversation about their fight in Kalm, that the topic had been avoided so far. And yes, of course as a new player you can't understand this, but the Kalm fight is a setup not only for CT to open up about each other in Rebirth, but also for the NC and LS scenes - I realised this as she was talking about it.

Honestly for Aerith's death, I see it more as an aknowledgement later on when they return to the city of the Ancients and we can have her death and burial for real, that Cloud admits he imagined having saved her when it was not the case. Because, it is what happened there. The same way we need to have an aknowledgement on how Zack's death traumatised him as well as what happened after Cloud beat Sephiroth - this part was left out in the OG outside the Lifestream scene because it had no place there, and I feel the same towards Aerith's death.

Yeah in hindsight, maybe the truth about the death does fit the return to Forgotten Capital better than North Crater, which would probably be better left of as a focus on the Nibelheim story.

 

[GamerSkull]

Not surprised at the cope. Grasping at the slightest thing in order for “proof”.

If CA fans think they won, well… they’re gonna have a hard time with Part 3.

 

[nars305]

I don't really agree with the whole "Clerith wins because he doesn't give a shit about Tifa" thing.

Because if the game tells us anything, it's that Tifa's death is the only one to get a specific reaction from Cloud. So she's special in her own way.

What did Cloud do when he saw Aerith die? He created a new memory. Something we've already seen in the past. That's exactly what he did with Zack. Tifa's death is the only one that triggered Cloud's catatonic state. It's the one thing that simply stops him from functioning as a human being and moving on. It's literally his reason for living that disappears when Tifa's gone.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

Cloud literally needs Tifa, and she is always there for him. That is why I will ride or die for them.

I think maybe the arguments from the other side are pretty effective at gas lighting lmao.

 

[Yoru]

Also, re NC and LS sequences: for the NC scene, I don't think there will be anything else than the Nibelheim incident at play. Because it's very important to convey to the player that what makes Cloud break is the fact that Tifa doubts him. Because I feel that this sentence "it's only your opinion that counts" that makes Tifa realise that she needs the truth, that she wants to believe in him. It is their bond being tested while they're being manipulated and gaslit by Sephiroth and... it does not break. Cloud breaks, but not their bond and this is why she decides to search for him after this. If you put Aerith's death here, it will muddle the message as well as the message that their bond is being tested, it makes less sense for Tifa to search for Cloud after this. Despite everything, you have to show that the connection is still here for this scene to work, as well as the following ones.

Wait, I think we may be onto something.

Sephiroth could totally use Aerith death at this moment. But not how we think. He doesn't want to break Cloud, he wants Tifa to doubt about him ! And showing her that Cloud is really strange about it and doesn't care about Aerith gone will reinforce this idea of Muppet. That's HER breaking point ! The few seconds where she's not sure who this Cloud is, and when Cloud loses it.

 

[abzy1200]

Ok now I regret what I said lmao.

You're way too pessimistic about it, and I'm sorry but you're too severe with the Re-trilogy. It still is a fantastic work and a love letter to Final Fantasy VII. It's a project like we have never seen and we'll maybe never will see again. No company in the world will have the balls to make a 10+ year trilogy with a narrative having its conclusion in the last game. They put money in this like there is no tomorrow.

And again, stop complaining about this "multiverse timeline shit kindgom hearts" because it's not. Nojima is doing FFX all over again. There is only one world and they didn't ruin anything. I'm sorry but you're being a cry baby here. No offense.

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but they literally butchered one of the most iconic moments in gaming, even going so far as to completely change what it was supposed to represent in favor of theory fodder.

I can't help but be nervous about later decisions judging by the fact they were okay with making such a bad change.

I know it's not multiverses. I know it will not end in something like that, it's just stuff to keep the player interested in a story they've already seen, but it just feels insulting to the originals legacy and everything it represents to me.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

That's what makes me so nervous!!

This game was supposed to be Cleriths chance to prove itself, yet it failed, and Cloti was exemplified so much. It feels too good to be true!

His mental instability is not a love confession. He is a character with massive PTSD. It’s a joke to think Cloud would care less about Tifa’s death. Especially when his speech is still in the game. I believe Cloud wants to believe he cried to reject the fact that he is Sephiroth’s puppet.

Of course, I think so too, but it feels like fuel for the LTD. A chance for Square Enix to play coy one last time by making it easily interpreted as him loving Aerith more, especially to newer fans who aren't informed on the topic.

and let me reiterate, I don't actually think Cloud having delusions means he loves Aerith more. I'm just saying that it feels like they're throwing Cleriths some bones to ensure they don't leave for part 3.

 

[nars305]

Yeah in hindsight, maybe the truth about the death does fit the return to Forgotten Capital better than North Crater, which would probably be better left of as a focus on the Nibelheim story.

I could see it that way too. It can be a continuation of him accepting things. Also, a proper time for all of them to grieve together and not just them standing at the burial place.

Like in the end, and including the end cut scene, it seems like it becomes something they stay hush about so Cloud doesn’t lose it.

 

[Hellenic]

I do have my qualms with this story, which is they don't let big moments breathe - except for the Tifa Lifestream scene in Gongaga, rather ironically because it's a whole new scene

Yeah this was very noticeable with all the big OG moments we had here. You have the emotional moment with Dyne and Barret then the very next second Palmer is coming for another boss battle. Later a similar thing happened with Red after he learns the truth about Seto and Gi Nattak arrives to lore dump right after.

Feels like they just put the old stuff in there to please people before they wanted to quickly move onto new things. That said, i did overall like the Dyne and Barret confrontation and conclusion more here than in the OG and did enjoy the Gi and Black materia lore we got from Gi Nattak.

 

[Stiggie]

I really don’t know how they’ll bring Aerith’s death to light for Cloud. I agree that it has to be before the LS scene because Cloud is meant to be fixed by the end of it.

I don’t think it really matters if Aerith is part of the reason for Cloud’s mental collapse, so long as the LS sequence is only for Cloud and Tifa. As long as that remains intimate and just between them, it will convey what it needs to.

It doesn’t seem like a stretch to believe Sephiroth will taunt him about her death, he already does the same about Tifa’s scar/if she’s real.


Can’t it be said that Cloud’s mind did break due to him failing Tifa? Simply FAILING Tifa fucks with Cloud’s head to the point where he can’t even recall that he basically killed Sephiroth at that same time. Then in reverse, Tifa is the only one who can pull Cloud out of his anguish.

Cloud losing his mind when he realizes Aerith died wouldn’t prove anything aside from what is already known. He cares for Aerith and he feels like he can’t protect anyone. Obviously her death is deeply traumatizing since he was standing right in front of her, under Sephiroth’s control, and she was murdered right in his face. It’s entirely understandable for this to shatter his mind.

His mental instability is not a love confession. He is a character with massive PTSD. It’s a joke to think Cloud would care less about Tifa’s death. Especially when his speech is still in the game. I believe Cloud wants to believe he cried to reject the fact that he is Sephiroth’s puppet.

I don't really agree with the whole "Clerith wins because he doesn't give a shit about Tifa" thing.

Because if the game tells us anything, it's that Tifa's death is the only one to get a specific reaction from Cloud. So she's special in her own way.

What did Cloud do when he saw Aerith die? He created a new memory. Something we've already seen in the past. That's exactly what he did with Zack. Tifa's death is the only one that triggered Cloud's catatonic state. It's the one thing that simply stops him from functioning as a human being and moving on. It's literally his reason for living that disappears when Tifa's gone.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

All the comparisons of Clouds reactions to death make no sense anyway, because they all pretend that his state of mind is the same from one day to the next.

If they hadn't noticed, Cloud wasn't exactly doing fine anyway. It's not like Cloud was having a good time, then Aerith died, and Cloud breaks. No, his mental state was on a steady slow decline for a while. Something that thinking he might have killed Tifa didn't help btw, it's not like after she got back his mental state went back to before he attacked her as though nothing happened. All these things took their toll and then Aerith dies at a point where he was already so far gone that it was enough to push him over the edge.

Yeah, that's a good analogy, it's like asking why Tifas death only made him fall over while Aeriths death made him fall off the edge, when at the moment Tifa "died" he was still 20 ft removed from the ledge, while with Aerith he was already teetering.

 

[Yoru]

I'm sorry if I'm being annoying, but they literally butchered one of the most iconic moments in gaming, even going so far as to completely change what it was supposed to represent in favor of theory fodder.

I can't help but be nervous about later decisions judging by the fact they were okay with making such a bad change.

I know it's not multiverses. I know it will not end in something like that, it's just stuff to keep the player interested in a story they've already seen, but it just feels insulting to the originals legacy and everything it represents to me.

I see what you're trying to tell, and I'm not saying you can't think like that.

But for now, I want to look at the bigger picture and I really think that Part III will totally change how we see that scene for now. Nomura & co already kind of told us. The scene didn't really change. Just our perception of it.

Aerith is dead. In the same way. We'll just live the moment in part 3. For now you're pissed, but you'll still have it in the end. I don't really care it's not in the "same CD"' as OG.

 

[Hellenic]

You can debate on how essential the ecological aspect was to the themes of the original, but it's still a story that starts with bombing a power plant that is killing the planet by extracting the essence of life itself and turning it into power.
The point is that there is an entire universe of story potential there that flows naturally from that premise and perfectly lines up with all the events and worldbuilding that already exists in the game and that could easily resonate and amplify each other, and that this story is more topical even now than it was 27 years ago.

But instead they decided to focus on something that is very removed from human experience like destiny and alternate timelines, abstract transcendental things rather than something concrete and relatable. I find the decision to do that to be at least as perplexing as I would find the decision to make the lifestream some weird spectacle surrounding Aeriths death.

Hell, the fact that they MADE Aeriths death a spectacle despite always going on about its grounded nature shows you they're not above poisoning scenes for the sake of novelty and cheap intrigue.

I think that ultimately why the endings are like they are is because they wanted to just make some very bombastic endings that make you think for the next few years and not forget that there is another game coming out still. Also just to have each game end feel like a big final encounter for being essentially full games with a start and ending.

I don't really support their choices here, but i imagine something like this was their thought process behind them. That said they really made the Aerith death too dragged out with all the stupid 10 different wake ups and whatnot, not to mention the boss rush right after Jenova. We should've had some closure done before we jumped right into that portion too, couse after i just didn't feel anything anymore besides Tifas sadness at the very end.