SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Hellenic]

It has nothing to do with the LS scene and the Aerith death scene
And Cloud was heartbroken because he was rejected by Tifa

Play the game again, fool

You really need to tone down the asshole mode you keep on here. Just don't say anything if you can't debate without insults.

 

[abzy1200]

And also, I hope people didn't get the impression that I don't like Nomura. That's not it. I have an appreciation for him since he did play a big part in creating the original game. It's just that he's never on the nose about things, he likes making people dig a little bit, which is what worries me that he won't let a Clerith interpretation of this game completely die.

Yeah, that's a good analogy, it's like asking why Tifas death only made him fall over while Aeriths death made him fall off the edge, when at the moment Tifa "died" he was still 20 ft removed from the ledge, while with Aerith he was already teetering.

This is a good way to explain it yeah, thanks.

Aerith is dead. In the same way. We'll just live the moment in part 3. For now you're pissed, but you'll still have it in the end. I don't really care it's not in the "same CD"' as OG.

I have no problems with changes being made to the game, nothing is ever perfect after all. I don't doubt the story will still end up at Advent Children, but I feel like the changes they have made, haven't been for the best. Aeriths death was kind of the last straw for me, such a beautiful, impactful moment that was torn apart and for what?

I do think that they have been doing a better job at showing the party grieving about Aerith, that IS a welcome change, as it was, admittedly, absent from the original and felt a bit odd.

I don't have an opposition to changes, I have an opposition to bad changes. The new stuff doesn't make me go "Oooo I wonder what will happen next?!", they make me go "why?"

But of course that's just me, people are free to enjoy the new stuff as they please.

 

[Yoru]

All the comparisons of Clouds reactions to death make no sense anyway, because they all pretend that his state of mind is the same from one day to the next.

If they hadn't noticed, Cloud wasn't exactly doing fine anyway. It's not like Cloud was having a good time, then Aerith died, and Cloud breaks. No, his mental state was on a steady slow decline for a while. Something that thinking he might have killed Tifa didn't help btw, it's not like after she got back his mental state went back to before he attacker her as though nothing happened. All these things took their toll and then Aerith dies at a point where he was already so far gone that it was enough to push him over the edge.

Yeah, that's a good analogy, it's like asking why Tifas death only made him fall over while Aeriths death made him fall off the edge, when at the moment Tifa "died" he was still 20 ft removed from the ledge, while with Aerith he was already teetering.

I disagree. The fact that Aerith's death didn't stop him from continuing his journey as if nothing had happened is quite revealing. It didn't push him over the edge. It pushed him to sweep it under the rug like he did with Zack. It's nothing new.

Yes, Cloud isn't well. He hasn't been since the beginning of FF7. But what's the one thing that allows him to pretend? Tifa. It was Tifa finding him at Midgar Station that started it all. And it's Tifa's supposed death or her doubting him at the North Crater that ends his pretence and really pushes him over the edge.

 

[nars305]

and let me reiterate, I don't actually think Cloud having delusions means he loves Aerith more. I'm just saying that it feels like they're throwing Cleriths some bones to ensure they don't leave for part 3.

I understand that SE has fueled the LTD it seems. Being new to FF7 I haven’t experienced it that much.

I think they made it clear who Cloud loves, and they made it clear who Aerith loves.

I’m pretty happy with where they took Tifa and Cloud in Rebirth. I wasn’t expecting a slow burn romance after Remake, thought it was just another “sure you can romance a girl” thing. Like Persona games where it’s not that meaningful and just something on the side.

So from the leap I felt between Remake and Rebirth as far as Cloud and Tifa go, I still have faith in SE. Tifa and Cloud’s relationship has been expanded so much outside of the game, I would be shocked if the LS scene left us disappointed. *As far as if they include Aerith, Cloud’s delusion, etc.

All that to say, could they be throwing them bones? Maybe? I don’t think it’s really all SE’s fault. Like I said, they are making the pairings very clear. It’s Cleriths who tend to distort things and muddy it up in addition to the long term ambiguity. However, the ambiguity seems to be going out the window, so it’s harder to distort.

 

[Hellenic]

i just see a really powerful scene of Cloud being at forgotten capital reliving the death then crying while the party hugs and comforts him "nice panning shot of the whole group"

I like this idea a lot.

 

[abzy1200]

I’m pretty happy with where they took Tifa and Cloud in Rebirth. I wasn’t expecting a slow burn romance after Remake, thought it was just another “sure you can romance a girl” thing. Like Persona games where it’s not that meaningful and just something on the side.

Yeah anybody who acts like Final Fantasy 7 and actual "choose your romance" games have anything in common are lying. It's so different.

 

[Yoru]

such a beautiful, impactful moment that was torn apart and for what?

To show Cloud's state of mind.

Again. Everyone has their own OG memories and there's nothing wrong with that. But after the shock effect at the end of CD1... the game acts as if nothing important had happened and you continue your journey. The player knows, of course, but the game isn't the best to admit it, to be honest.

So before I throw stones at them, I'm waiting to see what they do with it. I think it's interesting to use this decisive moment to show how the team is falling apart with those mourning while Cloud doesn't give a damn.

tl;dr : Let's not be too impartial until we've seen the full story.

 

[Hellenic]

Wait, I think we may be onto something.

Sephiroth could totally use Aerith death at this moment. But not how we think. He doesn't want to break Cloud, he wants Tifa to doubt about him ! And showing her that Cloud is really strange about it and doesn't care about Aerith gone will reinforce this idea of Muppet. That's HER breaking point ! The few seconds where she's not sure who this Cloud is, and when Cloud loses it.

Oh true, they could use it instead to make Tifas doubt even more warranted this time around with it.

 

[abzy1200]

To show Cloud's state of mind.

Again. Everyone has their own OG memories and there's nothing wrong with that. But after the shock effect at the end of CD1... the game acts as if nothing important had happened and you continue your journey. The player knows, of course, but the game isn't the best to admit it, to be honest.

So before I throw stones at them, I'm waiting to see what they do with it. I think it's interesting to use this decisive moment to show how the team is falling apart with those mourning while Cloud doesn't give a damn.

tl;dr : Let's not be too impartial until we've seen the full story.

Of course, but it still upsets me a little bit we have to wait at least 3 years to see it as it actually happened in the forgotten Capital.

and again, yeah the OG wasn't great for showing the party being in grief, that is a change I very much welcome.

I just feel that, so far, the new stuff hasn't really improved the story. Maybe it will and I will be shocked come part 3, but for now I'm worried about what other moments will get the same treatment that Aeriths death did.

 

[GamerSkull]

Oh true, they could use it instead to make Tifas doubt even more warranted this time around with it.

Yeah, I would bet that we'll see her actively avoid Cloud in the next game up until the Northern Cave.

 

[Yoru]

Of course, but it still upsets me a little bit we have to wait at least 3 years to see it as it actually happened in the forgotten Capital.

and again, yeah the OG wasn't great for showing the party being in grief, that is a change I very much welcome.

I just feel that, so far, the new stuff hasn't really improved the story. Maybe it will and I will be shocked come part 3, but for now I'm worried about what other moments will get the same treatment that Aeriths death did.

Again, no one can blame you for the way you felt.

I'm just saying that, just as in real life, you have to be measured.

It's natural to be hesitant. But the discussion went a bit too much into "it's shit, they've ruined everything those incompetents" for my taste.

 

[abzy1200]

It's natural to be hesitant. But the discussion went a bit too much into "it's shit, they've ruined everything those incompetents" for my taste.

yeah it definitely did and I'm sorry for that. Earlier I was playing chapter 14 on hard mode, so I failed a lot, so I had to see an ending I didn't particularly like over and over and over, and it might have just rubbed me the wrong way a bit.

 

[Hellenic]

I understand that SE has fueled the LTD it seems. Being new to FF7 I haven’t experienced it that much.

I think they made it clear who Cloud loves, and they made it clear who Aerith loves.

I’m pretty happy with where they took Tifa and Cloud in Rebirth. I wasn’t expecting a slow burn romance after Remake, thought it was just another “sure you can romance a girl” thing. Like Persona games where it’s not that meaningful and just something on the side.

So from the leap I felt between Remake and Rebirth as far as Cloud and Tifa go, I still have faith in SE. Tifa and Cloud’s relationship has been expanded so much outside of the game, I would be shocked if the LS scene left us disappointed. *As far as if they include Aerith, Cloud’s delusion, etc.

All that to say, could they be throwing them bones? Maybe? I don’t think it’s really all SE’s fault. Like I said, they are making the pairings very clear. It’s Cleriths who tend to distort things and muddy it up in addition to the long term ambiguity. However, the ambiguity seems to be going out the window, so it’s harder to distort.

Thank god this game isn't Persona where you can romance whoever and it means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, even if some people think we have a choice here.

There's really no bone throwing honestly. it's all on the fans who just can't see the bigger picture over their focus on just everything being a romantic moment with Cloud and the girls.

 

[Stiggie]

I disagree. The fact that Aerith's death didn't stop him from continuing his journey as if nothing had happened is quite revealing. It didn't push him over the edge. It pushed him to sweep it under the rug like he did with Zack. It's nothing new.

Yes, Cloud isn't well. He hasn't been since the beginning of FF7. But what's the one thing that allows him to pretend? Tifa. It was Tifa finding him at Midgar Station that started it all. And it's Tifa's supposed death or her doubting him at the North Crater that ends his pretence and really pushes him over the edge.

I mean in Rebirth, in the OG it's just another push towards the edge, I agree.

 

[nars305]

I just feel that, so far, the new stuff hasn't really improved the story. Maybe it will and I will be shocked come part 3, but for now I'm worried about what other moments will get the same treatment that Aeriths death did.

I think that’s what it boils down to. This is a three part story that we unfortunately have to wait years for the final part. It’s hard for me to judge everything when there is still a large portion of the story missing.

I understand that I haven’t played the OG though…so I’m looking at it as a new fan who doesn’t have any background to compare things to.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Hmmm... I like it, but is it intended as a chorus or first verse? I could go either way, but it changes my preferred placement of the theremin.

I was thinking of the hook to lead into the chorus, but I'm flexible.

Fuck, turn hard right then and through the rock formations, then due north. You can grab a Shaymin without needing discontinued event items

Knew you'd get the reference. Fun fact, my wife lived in Hokkaido for a time and we have a short series- sadly now abandoned- called Console Tours where I wander about Sinnoh and the wife compares it to real locations in Hokkaido.

Might have to look into it, I've heard of SotM... somewhere. TVTropes, maybe? Sounded good whoever brought it up.

Possibly me in years gone by.

Cloud is multifaceted. Most of the facets are "grumpy" at minimum, but still multifaceted.

The facet that's not Grumpy is the "together with Tifa" facet. That one's happy but socially awkward.

So a Triton or Sea Elf could wreak havoc from above, but a winged Tiefling could probably do it better. Interesting. And giving high level summoners/conjurers more options to play with on top of that.

The idea of the setting is that civilization is trying to A: raise land above the cloud sea to create your classic flying island, and B: find the source of the cloud sea and if possible stop it. It also allowed for spelljammer like play without need for space travel.

Appreciated. Besides, I'll always have the memory of walking out the front door of that job backwards while flying a double eagle and cackling. Immediately after the manager being flipped off had been overruled by their boss whilst attempting to fire me.

Always appreciated when you can say fuck you to a shit job or manager.

I was refreshing my comics knowledge with a wiki walks last night, I understand we already have a Honey Badger (she's sweet, plus claws) so I don't see why not.

It's related and he can hang out with the family mascot!

That tracks. With how multiverse focused the Spider books get even compared to Marvel as a whole, individual code names for 616 at least really should be the rule.

It's funny, X-men used to be the multiverse focused chunk of the line.

One of the finest moments in comics history, Spider-Girl smacking around a young lady in a familiar (ridiculous) green and yellow suit and casually telling the bystanders "my dad used to beat up her dad."

MC2 and Renew Your Vows alike deserve all the love they got and then some.

And then you see how shat upon he is by life in 616 and you wonder who editoria's conflakes he pisses in.

I remembered our ever lovin' blue eyed pick for Barret after posting, decided not to edit and let you have the correction. S'what you do, after all.

Danke.

Not just a pilot, also an engineer and would be astronaut. I hate to suggest this but... MCU Rocket Raccoon?

Or, going back to Logan, isn't Mr. Howlett one of the mechanics/most common pilots for the Blackbird? Expertly trained with explosives as per the Dynamite limit break, fights primarily by throwing himself blades first at opponents? Honestly Cid's various Dragoon jumping stabs kinda work as self-propelled Fastball Specials. Also, chain smoking. Yeah I like this better than Rocket, despite my love of Rocket.

I was trying to avoid relying on the X-men, but yes, Wolverine fits quite well. Plus, he's been Australian, now he can be southern.

While constantly trying to edit its own genes to isolate one of the fused beings from the other while granting fire resistance to a specific half but constantly stepping on its own toes and doing both. At least it's keep them out of everyone's hair for a while, till they get desperate.

Truly, a fate worthy of being Hojo.

Sadly Zoidberg's new shell house at the Forgotten Capital just burned down. Something about a cigar.

It wasn't sephiroth that killed Aerith, it was smoke inhalation! ZOIDBERG!

Ah yes, the downfall of most Sith. Isn't this even the source of most of Vader's actual losses?

I believe so, yes.

Sonic deserves better. I mean it's not Sonic 06 bad but that's almost the definition of damning with faint praise.

Sonic 06 just being damning straight up.

At least the red and black spiders are big enough to see 'em coming now. Just watch out for the koalas, you know it's required that they become Drop Bears in Fallout or anything like Fallout.

I need to find my stats for the evil Arborial Dwarves in DnD who were a parody of Drow and Drop bears. They started combats by falling from trees butt first trying to land on people's heads. While wearing a giant steel butt spike.

I'd question my sanity for coming back down south if I'd had any other options.

That presumes there's sanity left to be had.

Can't wait till someone tries to add a rose to a bouquet and ends up with thorns stapling it to their hand for the rest of the round.

The basket it somehow wedged inside the arm itself, flailing about as they move.

This is everything I dreamed of when I suggested it.

I aim to please.

I imagine most people who even briefly experience quantum superposition would come out of it confused or broken in some way. Poor kids not a Time Lord after all.

If anyone is in FF it's Gilgamesh.
Or Ardyn Izunia. He's like the evil version of Tom Baker (Colin baker joke goes here).

So... same old same old?

Same old Bullshit, greater sense of desperation.

I don't see the difference from before

There seems to be a greater franticness this time. Like they're desperate to self soothe.

Also, re NC and LS sequences: for the NC scene, I don't think there will be anything else than the Nibelheim incident at play. Because it's very important to convey to the player that what makes Cloud break is the fact that Tifa doubts him. Because I feel that this sentence "it's only your opinion that counts" that makes Tifa realise that she needs the truth, that she wants to believe in him. It is their bond being tested while they're being manipulated and gaslit by Sephiroth and... it does not break. Cloud breaks, but not their bond and this is why she decides to search for him after this. If you put Aerith's death here, it will muddle the message as well as the message that their bond is being tested, it makes less sense for Tifa to search for Cloud after this. Despite everything, you have to show that the connection is still here for this scene to work, as well as the following ones.

For the Lifestream sequence, I'm still surprised at how many fans don't get that the first part of this sequence is a huge love confession (the second part being the resolution of the Nibelheim incident); I mean it's even said that this is where they realise their feelings for each other there but people stubbornely refuse to take this into account when crafting theories. This cannot be a group project, at most we'll have Aerith (and Zack?) guiding them in the Lifestream, protecting them, but that's as far as it can go. Yes, the Lifestream scene will definitely be expanded upon; it is not a surprise as we see Tifa being aware of one of the core elements, ie Cloud actually trying to help her in Mt Nibel when they were kids - that one memory that PROVED that Cloud was the true Cloud, which means they'll have to rely on something else now to prove that. We also see the Black Whispers attacking Cloud's memories in the Lifestream at the end. To me that shows expansion of the scene with new additions, however as the Weapons fled the place of the Lifestream memories, one has to wonder what happens then to Cloud's memories. IMHO they will have to talk a lot more about memories and their feelings associated, Cloud's hopes and dreams (Cosmo Canyon speaks a lot about the essence of the Lifestream being more than just memories, so I think we'll see that). I have said it before but to me, CT is probably one of SE's greatest love stories and we will see that being developped inside the Lifestream.

On a side note I was watching Welonz yesterday playing and she said that Cloud and Tifa never really had a conversation about their fight in Kalm, that the topic had been avoided so far. And yes, of course as a new player you can't understand this, but the Kalm fight is a setup not only for CT to open up about each other in Rebirth, but also for the NC and LS scenes - I realised this as she was talking about it.

Honestly for Aerith's death, I see it more as an aknowledgement later on when they return to the city of the Ancients and we can have her death and burial for real, that Cloud admits he imagined having saved her when it was not the case. Because, it is what happened there. The same way we need to have an aknowledgement on how Zack's death traumatised him as well as what happened after Cloud beat Sephiroth - this part was left out in the OG outside the Lifestream scene because it had no place there, and I feel the same towards Aerith's death.

Yeah, I've been thinking, and we don't need to confront her death, we can just acknowledge it, have Cloud go "right after it happened, I wasn't sure what happened. Part of me knew she was dead, part of me thought I'd saved her at the last second" Do that when the party is watching the memory projection and you can lead into "But it was always her saving us. She wasn't worried about her own safety. She wanted to save us. Let's not let that hope be in vein, let's go kick Sephiroth's but. Mosey Mosey Mosey."

It has nothing to do with the LS scene and the Aerith death scene
And Cloud was heartbroken because he was rejected by Tifa

Play the game again, fool

You want to change it that way in part 3
I know you're CA, so shut up

Hi, who the fuck are you and why are you shitting up this topic? I've checked your post history and you have primarily just said piss obvious shit in a confrontational way and accused other posters of being Cleriths because they have panic attacks about Square Enix fucking things up.

Isn't this something they do with each Ultimania release one way or another? Same old shit to me at this point.

There's nothing new to their actions, but they're trying very hard to push it and I feel it betrays a desperation and an attempt to hold onto their own self assurance that they backed the right horse.

I don't really agree with the whole "Clerith wins because he doesn't give a shit about Tifa" thing.

Because if the game tells us anything, it's that Tifa's death is the only one to get a specific reaction from Cloud. So she's special in her own way.

What did Cloud do when he saw Aerith die? He created a new memory. Something we've already seen in the past. That's exactly what he did with Zack. Tifa's death is the only one that triggered Cloud's catatonic state. It's the one thing that simply stops him from functioning as a human being and moving on. It's literally his reason for living that disappears when Tifa's gone.

Sorry, but for me it's a crushing victory for Cloti in this part of the narrative.

Cloud loses his entire shit at the idea of Tifa being dead. With Aerith- in the half of the hypertime where she is dead and he's aware she's dead - he cries over her death and moves forward.

Not surprised at the cope. Grasping at the slightest thing in order for “proof”.

If CA fans think they won, well… they’re gonna have a hard time with Part 3.

I don't think they think they won, is the funny part. I think we're looking at frantic denial right now.

All the comparisons of Clouds reactions to death make no sense anyway, because they all pretend that his state of mind is the same from one day to the next.

If they hadn't noticed, Cloud wasn't exactly doing fine anyway. It's not like Cloud was having a good time, then Aerith died, and Cloud breaks. No, his mental state was on a steady slow decline for a while. Something that thinking he might have killed Tifa didn't help btw, it's not like after she got back his mental state went back to before he attacked her as though nothing happened. All these things took their toll and then Aerith dies at a point where he was already so far gone that it was enough to push him over the edge.

Yeah, that's a good analogy, it's like asking why Tifas death only made him fall over while Aeriths death made him fall off the edge, when at the moment Tifa "died" he was still 20 ft removed from the ledge, while with Aerith he was already teetering.

And Tifa's near death sent him well over the ledge and her coming back brought him back, and then remembering Zack's demise sent him teetering again and his sense of self has been continually eroding all throughout rebirth.

 

[Eerie]

I just remembered seeing something I wanted to comment on:

We are talking about Tetsuya Nomura here, a notoriously obnoxious guy when it comes to creating understandable stories. He has already been unkind to the idea of Cloud and Tifa being an item in the past.

Excuse me but Nomura, the guy who created Tifa to be Cloud's love interest, has been what? We are talking about the guy who insists their relationship is not bad in ACC right, this one? The fact that he doesn't care about the LT because he told a story in a very straightforward way with its own conclusion, including a resolution of the LT inside of it, is a bad thing?

And also, I hope people didn't get the impression that I don't like Nomura. That's not it. I have an appreciation for him since he did play a big part in creating the original game. It's just that he's never on the nose about things, he likes making people dig a little bit, which is what worries me that he won't let a Clerith interpretation of this game completely die.

Yes Nomura and the whole team like it when people think about the stories they write, it means the players are appreciating them, that it touches them. However, Nojima was also very straightforward and said he'd only come back for FFVII if they left no room for interpretation; the guy has been keeping tabs on how bad the fandom is with their interpretations of the characters and if anything, he's down to kill each one, seeing the novellas and the games so far. This is why the game is like "it's CT", because... it is. And it's how Nojima wants fans to perceive it. I honestly think that p3 is going to kill it, re: LTD. It will leave no room for interpretation. If you think the extreme CAs' reactions to Rebirth is bad, just wait for the last game. But Nojima is on a crusade. He is pissed at bad takes and I can see that all over his writing lol.

Also nothing to do with the LT but uh, Jairus is back at harrassing Nojima and the SE account :/

 

[abzy1200]

Excuse me but Nomura, the guy who created Tifa to be Cloud's love interest, has been what? We are talking about the guy who insists their relationship is not bad in ACC right, this one? The fact that he doesn't care about the LT because he told a story in a very straightforward way with its own conclusion, including a resolution of the LT inside of it, is a bad thing?

I'm referring to the "people are always asking me whether or not Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship for 2 year before the events of Advent Children, but to be honest, I don't have any clue/don't care" and the "In Nojimas case, the connection between Cloud and Tifa was discussed more concretely, but I chose to erase that, I thought it would be more interesting for the player to think about it instead" quotes.

The first one if I remember correctly was in response to someone asking about Sephiroths love life. There was no need to bring up Cloud and Tifa, it just felt like he knew exactly what tree he was barking up when he said it.

The second one isn't as much an opposition to Cloud and Tifa admittedly, since it is referring to Kingdom Hearts 2, the game that heavily implies that Tifa is his "light", but it does show that Nomura doesn't like being on the nose about Cloud and Tifa's connection.

but then again, he is the person who said Tifa was a sweetheart to someone, and judging by context clues it's obvious she's a sweetheart to Cloud. So in retrospect I guess his stance is more pro-Cloti than I thought when I posted those statements.

and also, I see a good few people saying Nomura himself created Tifa to be Cloud's love interest, is there a source for that? I'm not doubting it, I just want to add it to my list of Cloti talking points.

Yes Nomura and the whole team like it when people think about the stories they write, it means the players are appreciating them, that it touches them. However, Nojima was also very straightforward and said he'd only come back for FFVII if they left no room for interpretation; the guy has been keeping tabs on how bad the fandom is with their interpretations of the characters and if anything, he's down to kill each one, seeing the novellas and the games so far. This is why the game is like "it's CT", because... it is. And it's how Nojima wants fans to perceive it. I honestly think that p3 is going to kill it, re: LTD. It will leave no room for interpretation. If you think the extreme CAs' reactions to Rebirth is bad, just wait for the last game. But Nojima is on a crusade. He is pissed at bad takes and I can see that all over his writing lol.

Nojima is certainly going to town on bad takes people have about the characters, which does give me hope.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm referring to the "people are always asking me whether or not Cloud and Tifa were in a romantic relationship for 2 year before the events of Advent Children, but to be honest, I don't have any clue/don't care" and the "In Nojimas case, the connection between Cloud and Tifa was discussed more concretely, but I chose to erase that, I thought it would be more interesting for the player to think about it instead" quotes.

The first one if I remember correctly was in response to someone asking about Sephiroths love life. There was no need to bring up Cloud and Tifa, it just felt like he knew exactly what tree he was barking up when he said it.

The second one isn't as much an opposition to Cloud and Tifa admittedly, since it is referring to Kingdom Hearts 2, the game that heavily implies that Tifa is his "light", but it does show that Nomura doesn't like being on the nose about Cloud and Tifa's connection.

but then again, he is the person who said Tifa was a sweetheart to someone, and judging by context clues it's obvious she's a sweetheart to Cloud. So in retrospect I guess his stance is more pro-Cloti than I thought when I posted those statements.

and also, I see a good few people saying Nomura himself created Tifa to be Cloud's love interest, is there a source for that? I'm not doubting it, I just want to add it to my list of Cloti talking points.

Nojima is certainly going to town on bad takes people have about the characters, which does give me hope.

To talk about Tifa being created as the love interest, we need to talk of a time before Tifa and Aerith as we know them, when Barret was Bro, Sephiroth was Vincent, Reno was Rude, Rude was Reno, one of them had an eyepatch and Tifa was Spehiroth's sister.

This Tifa- Tiphereth as I tend towards calling her- had elements of who would be our current versions of Tifa and Aerith. She had both the ancient destiny and the romantic link to the hero. (At some point in there they switched it so that Vinciroth was her ex rather than brother, I think that was after this stage) and at some point they changed her to look a bit more like Aerith, but still with Tifa's single earring. This is the Amano art phase. Somewhere in here is the decision to change it so that Ancient girl dies instead of man who will be Barret. Here they make a decision to "bring in" Tifa and give some of Tifereth's narrative beats to her. Those are clearly not the ancient destiny beats, so they're the personal connection romance beats.
So both initially and later on, Tifa was made as Cloud's love interest.

 

[Stiggie]

I've been thinking, and really the thing that is most aggravating about this whole debate is that the authors aren't even concrete about the vagueness.

Like ok, lets say they don't want to force the player into accepting Tifa and Cloud, then they COULD still just come out and simply say: "yeah, in the story as written Tifa and Cloud only love each other, and we write the story with that assumption in mind, but we also like to leave enough leeway so that people can imagine a different story if they want to".
There you have it, end of discussion. (honestly, we do have a quote a bit like this, but not really explicit enough).

And if the story were a true choose your own adventure, or at least your own ending, then they could come out and concretely say: "There is no canonical outcome to this story when it comes to love, both Tifa and Aerith are equally valid love interests. The story will not choose a side in that regard, it is up to the interpretation of the player".

But they don't do that, they neither come out with iron clad statements regarding the status of either girl, NOR do they come out and explicitly define the vagueness. Instead they write quotes that all simultaneously heavily hint at there being an actual answer, and that answer being Cloud and Tifa are romantic, Cloud and Aerith are spiritual, but that also seem to go out of their way to not completely burn the bridge on the idea of a Cloud Aerith romance.

Just stop doing that shit SE, if you want them to stay able to delude themselves, then state so outright and remove the bullshit.
You can say "Tifa is Canon, but the game is made as to allow you to substitute your own interpretation if you want" if that's the effect you're trying to achieve.

 

[GamerSkull]

I just remembered seeing something I wanted to comment on:


Excuse me but Nomura, the guy who created Tifa to be Cloud's love interest, has been what? We are talking about the guy who insists their relationship is not bad in ACC right, this one? The fact that he doesn't care about the LT because he told a story in a very straightforward way with its own conclusion, including a resolution of the LT inside of it, is a bad thing?


Yes Nomura and the whole team like it when people think about the stories they write, it means the players are appreciating them, that it touches them. However, Nojima was also very straightforward and said he'd only come back for FFVII if they left no room for interpretation; the guy has been keeping tabs on how bad the fandom is with their interpretations of the characters and if anything, he's down to kill each one, seeing the novellas and the games so far. This is why the game is like "it's CT", because... it is. And it's how Nojima wants fans to perceive it. I honestly think that p3 is going to kill it, re: LTD. It will leave no room for interpretation. If you think the extreme CAs' reactions to Rebirth is bad, just wait for the last game. But Nojima is on a crusade. He is pissed at bad takes and I can see that all over his writing lol.

Also nothing to do with the LT but uh, Jairus is back at harrassing Nojima and the SE account :/

That's the Jessie fan right? What's grinded their gears this time?

 

[nars305]

Just stop doing that shit SE, if you want them to stay able to delude themselves, then state so outright and remove the bullshit.
You can say "Tifa is Canon, but the game is made as to allow you to substitute your own interpretation if you want" if that's the effect you're trying to achieve.

I agree this is the most annoying thing.

I get annoyed with it when I remember that in all of these novels they beat it into your head how much Tifa loves Cloud, how important they are to each other, keep them together after the series, etc. *I’d be more understanding if they included ANYTHING about Cloud romantically longing for Aerith and not just hammer it in how it’s guilt.

It’s like they say every thing right up to “they love each other”.

You *can’t say it’s ambiguous but then say “yes Tifa ad Cloud will stay together” or show in the game that Cloud’s subconscious is literally nothing but Tifa. I feel absurd for arguing the point because it’s like…they are the ones who gave all these details and depth to the relationship but then skirt around calling a spade a spade.

 

[abzy1200]

To talk about Tifa being created as the love interest, we need to talk of a time before Tifa and Aerith as we know them, when Barret was Bro, Sephiroth was Vincent, Reno was Rude, Rude was Reno, one of them had an eyepatch and Tifa was Spehiroth's sister.

This Tifa- Tiphereth as I tend towards calling her- had elements of who would be our current versions of Tifa and Aerith. She had both the ancient destiny and the romantic link to the hero. (At some point in there they switched it so that Vinciroth was her ex rather than brother, I think that was after this stage) and at some point they changed her to look a bit more like Aerith, but still with Tifa's single earring. This is the Amano art phase. Somewhere in here is the decision to change it so that Ancient girl dies instead of man who will be Barret. Here they make a decision to "bring in" Tifa and give some of Tifereth's narrative beats to her. Those are clearly not the ancient destiny beats, so they're the personal connection romance beats.
So both initially and later on, Tifa was made as Cloud's love interest.

Yeah, I thought so, that's the connection I made, if they split the girl into two and gave everything to one, it would make you question why they made the split in the first place.

I just thought there was a quote or ultimania passage that said it or heavily implied it. An easy "gotcha" if you get what I mean.

Thanks, anyway.

But they don't do that, they neither come out with iron clad statements regarding the status of either girl, NOR do they come out and explicitly define the vagueness. Instead they write quotes that all simultaneously heavily hint at there being an actual answer, and that answer being Cloud and Tifa are romantic, Cloud and Aerith are spiritual, but that also seem to go out of their way to not completely burn the bridge on the idea of a Cloud Aerith romance.

Money, probably. Saying it outright would not bring in fans, it would only deter* people. Square Enix is a business at the end of the day.

Just how much money they would lose though.....it can't be that much.

Plus, it would weed out people who aren't actually fans of the game, only a ship from it.

 

[Eerie]

Nomura knew perfectly two years prior to AC that Cloud and Tifa were together, I think people should put this into perspective of AC: they wanted us to discover what happened, they weren't going to tell us "yeah Cloud and Tifa are together but going through a hard time; look forward the conclusion of this though!" (especially since AC especially sucked in my opinion lol). People have been bothering him about the characters' love life when it's not the crux of the movie, that is... it's guilt, it's moving on, being able to forgive oneself and accept the death of people close to you. So he was at a point where he was clearly getting annoyed by all these questions, but the fact that Cloud and Tifa end up together by the end of the OG is for the devs an evidence. I mean, they wrote it and they even created Tifa for this role specifically.

The second one isn't as much an opposition to Cloud and Tifa admittedly, since it is referring to Kingdom Hearts 2, the game that heavily implies that Tifa is his "light", but it does show that Nomura doesn't like being on the nose about Cloud and Tifa's connection.

Yes he took it out but at the same time, he made sure everyone would make the connection by talking about it. Lol.

That's the Jessie fan right? What's grinded their gears this time?

The game I guess with her dying?

But they don't do that, they neither come out with iron clad statements regarding the status of either girl, NOR do they come out and explicitly define the vagueness.

They do describe Tifa with a romantic term "大切な女性" aka taisetsuna josei:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1781490650141295096

They already gave the right answer and they already said look, Cloud and Tifa are a thing. The fact that the translations do miss is not really their fault in this case (since it's a booklet). The fact that fans either aren't aware of this or downright ignoring this just shows how wilfully ignorant they are willing to remain.

This is why Nojima is out to catch all those bad takes. Part 3 will be extremely interesting and also very very direct compared to the OG, IMHO.

 

[nars305]

I hope they maintain the momentum they are going for the story as far as the pairings. The building romance for Cloud and Tifa is what will make the LS sequence so compelling. The complicated feelings/Zack longing for Aerith is what will make their reunion so compelling.

Trying to keep ambiguity will/would have dim these moments for me personally. I can’t imagine watching the LS scene and going “hm, but I wonder if he loves Aerith too?” It makes no sense.

Same with Zack and Aerith- “hmm I thought she liked Cloud…” if Aerith didn’t say what she did at the end of their date, it would have made her reunion with Zack weird for me. But I can go into their reunion knowing Aerith told Cloud she didn’t LIKE him like him.