SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

I don't even believe she's his first choice, there isn't a choice, it's Tifa or nothing.

That's just it, to them she HAS to be the second choice, otherwise it means his feelings for Aerith were never stronger than his feelings for Tifa.

Which I would argue is true... but they obviously can't accept that.

 

[Stiggie]

Off-topic, but since there is a lot of Lord of the rings talk here. When Gandalf says "we have but one choice, we must face the long dark of Moria".
Does anyone else go "that's not a choice".
Or in general when characters go "you have two choices" think "that's one choice, two options"?

 

[GamerSkull]

Off-topic, but since there is a lot of Lord of the rings talk here. When Gandalf says "we have but one choice, we must face the long dark of Moria".
Does anyone else go "that's not a choice".
Or in general when characters go "you have two choices" think "that's one choice, two options"?

Well, there were other choices... but now it's too late and they've been closed off. So the last choice remains, to face the mines.

 

[nepheneethedestroyer]

What always confuses me about this argument is where it comes from in the first place.

I do ultimately think it's an overall failure of media literacy to read things this way (viewing Tifa as the 2nd choice or not his true love or however you want to phrase it), and I don't know if this is the case in general, but I can at least understand coming away from AC, especially pre-Crisis Core, and thinking "Cloud was unhappy with Tifa he sought out solace with (the memory of?) Aerith." I do not think that was the creators' intention with AC and obviously if Cloud was "settling" for Tifa the movie would obviously be written...differently...? But alas.

 

[LNK]

Tifa isn't Cloud's second choice, I firmly believe if Aerith still lived he'd ultimately choose to be with Tifa regardless.

I mean, that's partially the reason they made him kiss her before Aerith even dies.

Right?

I'm sorry, but if anyone honestly believes Cloud is going for Aerith in a romantic way after playing through Rebirth, they have some growing in life to do. Cloud and Aerith both acknowledge they aren't and won't be a thing. I've seen people actually make the argument now an alt Cloud is going to end up with alt Aerith. Smh

 

[LNK]

I do ultimately think it's an overall failure of media literacy to read things this way

I think that's being charitable. You don't need to have media literacy to see what's going on with their relationships. The Re trilogy has been so overt about it

 

[Stiggie]

Well, there were other choices... but now it's too late and they've been closed off. So the last choice remains, to face the mines.

Well, no, there were other options, and now that no other options remain they have no choice.
Although I suppose you could argue there is always a choice.

 

[nars305]

I think that's being charitable. You don't need to have media literacy to see what's going on with their relationships. The Re trilogy has been so overt about it

I mean honestly right…

This goes back yet again to the final date. How to some people it is the epitomes of romance. Is it really that hard to understand what Aerith says? Like am I just so wrong?

Aerith:

Thing is Cloud, I really like you.

But then “like” can mean a lotta different things can’t it?

Cause there’s liking, and then there’s liking…

WHILE LOOKING PERPLEXED

Cloud: Seriously what’s going on you’ve been weird all day?

How is this interpreted as a love confession? Genuinely. I have yet to get over this take obviously cause I always go back to it. It just boggles my mind lmao.

This is what Aerith should have said.

 

[LNK]

Furthermore, wasn't that date just a reenactment of her date with Zack?

 

[Legend45]

Furthermore, wasn't that date just a reenactment of her date with Zack?

Besides the guy taking pictures everything was mostly the same.

Honestly I'd be fine with the dream date if Aerith was actively doing "New" things with Cloud but she ended up doing things that just so happened to make her happy when she was with someone else.

 

[LNK]

Besides the guy taking pictures everything was mostly the same.

Honestly I'd be fine with the dream date if Aerith was actively doing "New" things with Cloud but she ended up doing things that just so happened to make her happy when she was with someone else.

That makes the idea of CA post Rebirth even worse. She's supposedly so into Cloud that in her dream she's doing the same exact things she did with her ex boyfriend whom she still has feelings for? Surrrrreeee

 

[nars305]

That makes the idea of CA post Rebirth even worse. She's supposedly so into Cloud that in her dream she's doing the same exact things she did with her ex boyfriend whom she still has feelings for? Surrrrreeee

Well I see people say it’s not similar to things she did with Zack…

 

[LNK]

Well I see people say it’s not similar to things she did with Zack…

Are those delusional Cleriths?

 

[GamerSkull]

Furthermore, wasn't that date just a reenactment of her date with Zack?

The current cope with that is... she has only ever dated Zack so she has no idea what a date is supposed to look like, hence she makes it look like that because it's the only one she's had.

Which, in a backhanded sort of way, almost seems to say that Aerith is unimaginative and dumb.

Also, the implication being that Zack never took her on other dates afterwards. (Not actually what they said but their assertion would imply this).

That date is important because it was their "first date".

 

[LNK]

The current cope with that is... she has only ever dated Zack so she has no idea what a date is supposed to look like, hence she makes it look like that because it's the only one she's had.

Which, in a backhanded sort of way, almost seems to say that Aerith is unimaginative and dumb.

Also, the implication being that Zack never took her on other dates afterwards. (Not actually what they said but their assertion would imply this).

That date is important because it was their "first date".

Those people should join the olympics with all the mental gymnastics they perform lol

 

[nars305]

These sort of takes are more less examples of how even if they decide to make the pairings even MORE clear…the LTD shall have a will stronger than Sephiroth’s.

 

[GamerSkull]

Well, no, there were other options, and now that no other options remain they have no choice.
Although I suppose you could argue there is always a choice.

Yeah, I mean that's fair. It's really more just the phrasing, Gandalf means they basically have no choice at that point.

These sort of takes are more less examples of how even if they decide to make the pairings even MORE clear…the LTD shall have a will stronger than Sephiroth’s.

For these kinds of people, it will certainly last forever. Even now, they are essentially gaslighting themselves into believing one thing or another like Tifa's date being meaningless or Cloud being in denial of Aerith's death being a stronger reaction.

Make no mistake, when the finale drops and if Square Enix has Cloud and Tifa kiss non-optionally and explicitly state they are together.... then these sorts of shippers will put arguments like "she's the second choice" or "he's just with her for now but is waiting to die to see Aerith". This is because they have to turn a loss into a victory no matter the cost. Nevermind that it makes Cloud seem like a complete scumbag.

They will do this so that they can "accept" the ending and pretend their headcanon is true.

 

[Jane Fane]

Huh, I just realized that Clerith is like the Pixar Theory. For anyone unfamiliar, the Pixar Theory is a fanon that all the Pixar movies happen in the same universe, just at different times. For every new Pixar film that is released, no matter how different the lore or world it takes place in, it's retrofitted into the theory by purposefully moving goalposts and introducing new truths. This way, the theory can never be plausibly disproven.

But the fun of Pixar Theory is the creativity and off-the-rails interpretations of making it work while fully acknowledging that it isn't canon. I wish extreme Cleriths could subscribe to that same freedom, unencumbered by the need to be canon.

 

[overheat28]

I mean honestly right…

This goes back yet again to the final date. How to some people it is the epitomes of romance. Is it really that hard to understand what Aerith says? Like am I just so wrong?

Aerith:

Thing is Cloud, I really like you.

But then “like” can mean a lotta different things can’t it?

Cause there’s liking, and then there’s liking…

WHILE LOOKING PERPLEXED

Cloud: Seriously what’s going on you’ve been weird all day?

How is this interpreted as a love confession? Genuinely. I have yet to get over this take obviously cause I always go back to it. It just boggles my mind lmao.

This is what Aerith should have said.

Honestly, I've been seeing a pattern where Cleriths try to equate the ships with romcom harem anime tropes. In this reading, Tifa is the childhood friend and so she must lose by default because that's what happens in these anime. Aerith is the transfer student and she has enraptured the stoic and somewhat clueless protagonist, therefore she wins because that's what happens in these types of anime. This is objectively a terrible reading on this game and they accuse other people of not understanding Japanese media tropes, lol.

I might be wrong but this childhood friend/transfer student dynamic may be referenced in some ultimania with Nomura or someone referencing Tifa and Aerith like this.

So using this frame of reference, you can kind of see how the dream date is twisted into something that never happened. Aerith has confessed her love and Cloud being the stoic, clueless harem anime protag doesn't notice....yet. He probably will eventually.....sometime later....hopefully (let's conveniently forget the death stuff). The transfer student notices she screwed up by confessing too early and tries to cover her tracks. I must admit it makes a horrible kind of sense with this framing. It's wrong of course, but goddam I hate these types of anime for a reason. They have skewed thinking and expectations very much, especially for younger fans.

I have always thought this date was hamfisted and overwrought on what it was trying to do. The most generous reading I can give it is that it functions as a rebuttal to Marlene telling Zack about Aerith's feelings earlier. The Aerith in the date has the filled white materia so she must also functionally, if not materially, be equivalent to Remake Aerith, i.e. Marlene's Aerith who gave her the memories. Therefore, we get to see what Aerith's "liking" actually means in practice and it is not favorable for CA at all. The Zack scenes interspersed throughout seal this interpretation for me. This is still part of his interlude and his face appears on the save file in this part of the game.

So ultimately, the game answered the question about Aerith's feelings for Cloud and the only one who has the wrong idea now is Zack (thanks Marlene), leaving some tension for their reunion in the last game.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The 2nd choice debate is back how lovely.......

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1781757288111317494

Tifa's Cloud 2nd choice sure, but she's also his 1st, 3rd, 6th, 4th, 5th and 7th choice. Not in that order.

Doesn't the english translation for that use the word "etched" instead of "engraved" despite the exact same kanji being used for both?

More things lost in translation lmao. Will we ever be free of sketchy jp to en translations?

An etching and an engraving are literally the same thing, just that an etching is more specific and engraving is more generic.

What always confuses me about this argument is where it comes from in the first place.

This is a rundown of the events:

-Cloud falls in love with Tifa in Nibelheim when they were children.
-Cloud leaves to join SOLDIER to become a special someone to her.
-Cloud still holds onto those feelings during his time in the infantry.
-Nibelheim incident happens, Zack dies bringing Cloud to midgar.
-Cloud meets Tifa, and being too ashamed of his unextraordinary self he makes up a persona to pretend he fulfilled his promise to Tifa.(Aka, real!Cloud basically dissappears.)
-Cloud bares his soul to Tifa in the lifestream, and through her acceptance of the unextraordinary him, the real him resurfaces.
-Cloud and Tifa bang
-Cloud and Tifa move in together and start raising children.

What exactly about this ever screamed "second choice"?

Cloud chose her once, then he chose her again a second time once other options presented themselves!
He'd do it a third time too. Just watch him.

You might need a hammer to drive it home, they're not gonna hear it willingly.

I mean, these are the same sort of people who made the "she's a sweetheart" and koi space bito arguments. They need a good hammering.

From what little I've learned about the story of Jairus I have a lot of sympathy for the guy, but yeah it's on him to seek the help he needs and stop shutting up the internet with his displaced affection induced madness.

That's basically the position to have with him yes.

Rebirth seems to be the story of giving Tifa more. Equal screentime might have been one of the goals, but equal relations most certainly were not.

I was referring to giving Jessie more of a send off than the other members of Avalanche but it works with Gongaga verus the date sequences too come to think of it..

I suddenly have Let's Do the Time Warp Again stuck in my head, wonder what that's all about.

Madness taking it's toll, most likely.

I'm also gonna constantly fuck with how high/low percussion is in the mix to make keeping rhythm unnecessarily difficult.

Work your freaky magic

Galar needs a little extra gimmick to help it past its suck, so I'm down. Seriously without focusing on the Pokemon native to the region it's got very little going for it.

They were trying to figure out big open areas and recreating the english countryside but it just did not work well.

I still wish the Gen IV remakes had been more like Gen 3D instead of a nearly 1:1 remake with a very minor graphical glow up plus Fairy-types. At least Cynthia is still a beast of a champion, I actually had to try for that win.

Absolutely same.

That name alone is golden win.

Some of my other heroes are Crimson Hood (Litttle Red Riding hood tactical archer type), Detcord (she makes things go boom), the Elementalist (like an Airbender Avatar type but more overtly magic themed) The Engineer (Tony Stark type who plays nice and gives his toys to heroes. And some villains for tactical reasons) and little Luke and Kapi (Six year old boy wants to be a superhero. Powerful ancient robot desperately trying to keep him alive in spite of himself).

At this point people who've never met them should see it immediately.

I mean, they do.

I may downsize it to a more localized phenomenon and use it at some point. Something like that could be a great consequence for beating a BBEG to set up the next plot hook. Or a great consequence if a senile Archmage with wild magic surges doing basically anything

Go Ham

Good point. Split the difference at Burning Badger?

Logan shall henceforth be known as Burning Badger. Let Marvel Editorial know.

I feel like with the MCU trying to make multiversal shit the next big thing it's gonna hit everyone over time.

It's definitely been making a comeback for the X-men as of late.

Sounds either really good or really awful, I don't see much in between here. Either way I think it'd sell.

I mean it's very in Hama's wheelhouse -He wrote a lot of the early wolverine comic - so probably good.

Honestly Sephiroth is a victim turned villain, Hojo is responsible for... every major bad thing aside from Mako Reactors? Yeah, there's not enough suffering in one timeline, let's torture multiple Hojos and fuse 'em to get all that trauma in one.

He might like that too much.

I mean Sonic seems to remember it, but fortunately he's Sonic so he just kinda shrugged and left at high speed.

The best response to 06 was running away, yes.

Spikes solve problems. The Dr. Wiley guide to lair design cannot be wrong about this.

Ironically, his insistence on other defense methods makes his fortress easier to navigate, since Rock can take a hit from something else and just breeze by the spikes for awhile.

You make a solid case for this. Maybe what the situation needs to sort itself out us just a good solid dose of more crazy. Like, we ripped a portal into the Abyss type crazy.

And if we do it wrong, would anyone notice the difference?

The snap back is key, so you never know if they'll count as in or out when time runs out.

And so they might suddenly shoot out and break something at the last possible second.

I look more decisive if I pick one.

Eh, fair.

He's come a long way from being just a recurring gag boss without ever losing sight of his roots. Good on that man.

An inspiration to jobber villains everywhere.

Fuck sake that's sad. And vaguely sounds like a euphemism for stuff served at a hen party.

Nah, just a chocolately and a fruity parfait.

That is strictly more accurate, though I was classifying their distress as emotional pain.

Again, fair.

It kinda feels like that's where it has to end up, yeah. At the very most it might be subtle enough that you could interpret it as the timelines being separated from interacting with each other rather than no longer existing.

One way or the other, yeah.

Exactly how I read it. That's how I begin stern dad talks when the kids are acting less than ideal.

I mean I'm old enough and I've been here long enough.

One day the temptation to do a big showy flourishing bow will overcome you.

But even then it shall be polite.

So it's the plot of every "big pharma bad" story I've ever seen then.

More like the really old PSAs that MST3K and rifftrax mock endlessly.

Yep. And then she'll be a critical component of him becoming able to function on his own.

I mean, as I keep saying, get rid of Tifa and you have no Cloud. Get rid of Aerith and the boy keeps on going.

That's sad and angering and hilarious all at once. So many complex emotions, just be hungry or dead.

Some people just cannot handle reality as it stands and have to completely divorce themselves from it with a comforting lie.

He's pretty much over the side and holding on by fingertips alone at this point.

Or Coyote timing.

Edit @abzy1200: Etching and Engraving are two different methods of accomplishing the same task, so it's mostly fine even in English.

A distinction without effective difference, in that all forms of etching are a form of engraving.

That's just it, to them she HAS to be the second choice, otherwise it means his feelings for Aerith were never stronger than his feelings for Tifa.

Which I would argue is true... but they obviously can't accept that.

It's not enough for them for Aerith to be special due to her mystic ancient heritage if she's not also the most loved by everyone around her.

Huh, I just realized that Clerith is like the Pixar Theory. For anyone unfamiliar, the Pixar Theory is a fanon that all the Pixar movies happen in the same universe, just at different times. For every new Pixar film that is released, no matter how different the lore or world it takes place in, it's retrofitted into the theory by purposefully moving goalposts and introducing new truths. This way, the theory can never be plausibly disproven.

But the fun of Pixar Theory is the creativity and off-the-rails interpretations of making it work while fully acknowledging that it isn't canon. I wish extreme Cleriths could subscribe to that same freedom, unencumbered by the need to be canon.

Clerith is more like trying to prove the Pixar theory by instead trying to prove that Elsa and Anna from Frozen are Tarzan's sisters and that Little Mermaid takes place in the waters off Arendell. It's unrelated and trying to mash together stuff in spite of ludicrous obstacles to the idea.

Honestly, I've been seeing a pattern where Cleriths try to equate the ships with romcom harem anime tropes. In this reading, Tifa is the childhood friend and so she must lose by default because that's what happens in these anime. Aerith is the transfer student and she has enraptured the stoic and somewhat clueless protagonist, therefore she wins because that's what happens in these types of anime. This is objectively a terrible reading on this game and they accuse other people of not understanding Japanese media tropes, lol.

But that's NOT what happens in those anime. Assuming we're talking about Shonen, the childhood friend wins out just as often as the wild new woman does. Like, Yu Yu Hakusho. Yusukue Urameshi is a one woman man and that woman is his childhood friend. If I extend my search further you get Naruto and Bleach and Fullmetal Alchemist and so much more.

So using this frame of reference, you can kind of see how the dream date is twisted into something that never happened. Aerith has confessed her love and Cloud being the stoic, clueless harem anime protag doesn't notice....yet. He probably will eventually.....sometime later....hopefully (let's conveniently forget the death stuff). The transfer student notices she screwed up by confessing too early and tries to cover her tracks. I must admit it makes a horrible kind of sense with this framing. It's wrong of course, but goddam I hate these types of anime for a reason. They have skewed thinking and expectations very much, especially for younger fans.

Sometimes the transfer student wins the boy. Sometimes everyone is "the transfer student" Sometimes everyone is the childhood friend. You literally cannot typecast things like that because stories come in thousands of different forms.

I have always thought this date was hamfisted and overwrought on what it was trying to do. The most generous reading I can give it is that it functions as a rebuttal to Marlene telling Zack about Aerith's feelings earlier. The Aerith in the date has the white materia so she must also functionally, if not materially, be equivalent to Remake Aerith in terms of her memories. Therefore, we get to see what Aerith's "liking" actually means in practice and it is not favorable for CA at all. The Zack scenes interspersed throughout seal this interpretation for me. This is still part of his interlude and his face appears on the save file in this part of the game.

I think in a way it serves as the perfect underscore to the "because you weren't there" line. Cloud was an emotional substitute for Zack, and now with all her memories, she's remembered that fact and it's coming home to her emotionally as well as rationally now.

So ultimately, the game answered the question about Aerith's feelings for Cloud and the only one who has the wrong idea now is Zack (thanks Marlene), leaving some tension for their reunion in the last game.

Even then, he's going to be nice about it. Because it's Zack.

 

[overheat28]

Tifa's Cloud 2nd choice sure, but she's also his 1st, 3rd, 6th, 4th, 5th and 7th choice. Not in that order.


An etching and an engraving are literally the same thing, just that an etching is more specific and engraving is more generic.


A distinction without effective difference, in that all forms of etching are a form of engraving.


It's not enough for them for Aerith to be special due to her mystic ancient heritage if she's not also the most loved by everyone around her.


Clerith is more like trying to prove the Pixar theory by instead trying to prove that Elsa and Anna from Frozen are Tarzan's sisters and that Little Mermaid takes place in the waters off Arendell. It's unrelated and trying to mash together stuff in spite of ludicrous obstacles to the idea.


But that's NOT what happens in those anime. Assuming we're talking about Shonen, the childhood friend wins out just as often as the wild new woman does. Like, Yu Yu Hakusho. Yusukue Urameshi is a one woman man and that woman is his childhood friend. If I extend my search further you get Naruto and Bleach and Fullmetal Alchemist and so much more.


Sometimes the transfer student wins the boy. Sometimes everyone is "the transfer student" Sometimes everyone is the childhood friend. You literally cannot typecast things like that because stories come in thousands of different forms.


I think in a way it serves as the perfect underscore to the "because you weren't there" line. Cloud was an emotional substitute for Zack, and now with all her memories, she's remembered that fact and it's coming home to her emotionally as well as rationally now.


Even then, he's going to be nice about it. Because it's Zack.

I was talking more along the lines of explicit harem romcoms like Highschool DxD, Toradora etc (honestly I have almost zero experience in this genre so could totally be off-base). Shonen I've consumed almost all my life so I definitely know the childhood friend wins often here (Yusuke and Edward Elric are goated protagonists tbh).

I agree this sort of thing should not be typecasted all. Yet I see this trend of focusing on the childhood friend and transfer student among Cleriths recently and being used as "proof". Ultimately this is all just clutching at straws.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I was talking more along the lines of explicit harem romcoms like Highschool DxD, Toradora etc (honestly I have almost zero experience in this genre so could totally be off-base). Shonen I've consumed almost all my life so I definitely know the childhood friend wins often here (Yusuke and Edward Elric are goated protagonists tbh).

I agree this sort of thing should not be typecasted all. Yet I see this trend of focusing on the childhood friend and transfer student among Cleriths recently and being used as "proof". Ultimately this is all just clutching at straws.

But Cloud isn't a High School Harem protag. That's also a really specific genre. Toradora is about two people who fall in love over the course of trying to cooperatively help the other get together with someone else. I haven't watched DxD, but that's definitely a wacky pervy comedy where the guy gets all the girls in the end from what I've gathered. Another example of the high school otome / harem genre I can think of, the Girlfriend of Steel spinoff, has Shinji wind up with childhood friend Asuka in the end.

As far as romance tropes go, we're looking at this the wrong way I think. Cloud is the childhood best friend wandering back into Tifa's life at a pivotal moment as she makes a new life for herself. He's the strange man who reminds Aerith of her first love. We're in THEIR romance narratives, not Cloud's, if we want to think about this in terms of tropes.

 

[LNK]

Huh, I just realized that Clerith is like the Pixar Theory. For anyone unfamiliar, the Pixar Theory is a fanon that all the Pixar movies happen in the same universe, just at different times. For every new Pixar film that is released, no matter how different the lore or world it takes place in, it's retrofitted into the theory by purposefully moving goalposts and introducing new truths. This way, the theory can never be plausibly disproven.

But the fun of Pixar Theory is the creativity and off-the-rails interpretations of making it work while fully acknowledging that it isn't canon. I wish extreme Cleriths could subscribe to that same freedom, unencumbered by the need to be canon.

If you ever interact with em, allude to their interpretation as something like the Pixar theory.

"Oh yeah, Cloud and Aerith are so together. Barret and Terra are as well. So cool."

Some shit like that haha

 

[abzy1200]

But that's NOT what happens in those anime. Assuming we're talking about Shonen, the childhood friend wins out just as often as the wild new woman does. Like, Yu Yu Hakusho. Yusukue Urameshi is a one woman man and that woman is his childhood friend. If I extend my search further you get Naruto and Bleach and Fullmetal Alchemist and so much more.

I knew I wasn't crazy, I knew there were so many examples of the childhood friend "winning", I just couldn't think of them lmao. I don't think it's shonen but I'm pretty sure The Quintessential Quintuplets is another example of the childhood friend "winning" I can think of off the top of my head.

*Now that I think about it, couldn't you also make the argument for dragon ball aswell? If my memory serves correctly that is, it's been a while since I watched it.

(another edit sorry) *Bleach is an interesting comparison to make aswell, since Clotis and Ichihimes are in the same boat from what I gather. and it's an even funnier comparison to make since not only does Ichigo end up with his childhood friend, Renji also does! Two whole examples in the same manga of lead characters ending up with their childhood friends, and in an incredibly popular and influential one too.

I've always seen "engraving" as making deeper grooves than "etching", I guess it was just a me thing.

 

[Yoru]

Honestly, I've been seeing a pattern where Cleriths try to equate the ships with romcom harem anime tropes. In this reading, Tifa is the childhood friend and so she must lose by default because that's what happens in these anime. Aerith is the transfer student and she has enraptured the stoic and somewhat clueless protagonist, therefore she wins because that's what happens in these types of anime. This is objectively a terrible reading on this game and they accuse other people of not understanding Japanese media tropes, lol.

And yet again they forgive one small detail when comparing stuff.

CLOUD IS IN LOVE OF SOMEONE ELSE FROM THE START.

And this person happens to be in love with him too, AT THE SAME TIME.

We're not talking about a edgy protagonist getting out of his shell by the new genki girl. He's already out of it when alone with the girl HE LOVES.

Cloud is the ultimate simp. Clerith lost from the start.