SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Was talking about this in the discord and wanted to bring it up here. I love that in remake they're slowly telling the story of Cloud being saved and shaped by three people who love him and teach him to love himself.

Aerith says don't fall in love with me, but she's the one who's falling. Tifa is terrified to express her growing feelings and Cloud wouldn't even know where to start, yet their physical intimacy is a language unto itself (Words aren't the only way). Zack's coming arc maybe new ground, but he literally dragged the man across the world and is talking to a catatonic about working together and building a life. These people adore Cloud and he in turn is gonna grow to cherish them all.

Funny enough, the most emotional scene for me was when Charlie Sheen Biggs compared Cloud to the kids in the orphanage. I don't usually get emotional, even with this game that I love dearly, but I was playing for the next few minutes with tears in my eyes and damn I did not expect this story to be so tender.

So yeah, the shipping trope stuff is there, but SE's "old men" are telling a sentimental love story (that has about 100 hours of suffering to go before we get there). To pick one relationship over another is coloring with half a box of crayons.

I think you're forgetting the fact that Cloud is literally not himself before Mideel. Tifa is falling for the memory of Cloud, and the fact that he activates her maternal almonds. Aerith doesn't even know who he actually is, but she's seeing shades of Zack in him. Zack knew him before Nibelheim, but not after his brain created a new identity, cause he died.

My point is, Cloud is a mystery they're all(except Zack for obvious reasons) trying to understand. Just like Cloud's emotions toward Aerith post-FF7 are tainted with guilt, Tifa and Aerith's emotions are tainted with other things.
 
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Edley

Pray for Sound
AKA
Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
Don't know if I agree with the tainted part. Cloud's false persona doesn't invalidate his interactions in Remake.

He's going to carry the memories and feelings forward with him just like Aerith and Tifa do. Tifa had an inferred crush on Cloud b/c of water tower, Aerith is intrigued by Cloud's similarities to Zack, but their feelings don't remain static. I can't see either of them discounting what happened because he wasn't his most authentic self. Especially if Aerith has the sort of inhereted memories/feelings the ending seemed to suggest.

The LTD veers into zero sum games that focus on who felt what and when and was it really real that miss the point in an effort to lead a side to some sort of victory. Falling in romantic love is not the point of Cloud's arc. Being loved and learning to love is what allows him to overcome his issues and become a hero.
 

Ruri

Pro Adventurer
Don't know if I agree with the tainted part. Cloud's false persona doesn't invalidate his interactions in Remake.

He's going to carry the memories and feelings forward with him just like Aerith and Tifa do. Tifa had an inferred crush on Cloud b/c of water tower, Aerith is intrigued by Cloud's similarities to Zack, but their feelings don't remain static. I can't see either of them discounting what happened because he wasn't his most authentic self. Especially if Aerith has the sort of inhereted memories/feelings the ending seemed to suggest.

The LTD veers into zero sum games that focus on who felt what and when and was it really real that miss the point in an effort to lead a side to some sort of victory. Falling in romantic love is not the point of Cloud's arc. Being loved and learning to love is what allows him to overcome his issues and become a hero.

I'm gonna keep this because I really love this. Sometimes I will just have a moment where I think how much I and a lot of others overthink a huge lot of stuff. The characters just don't look like their characters after they've been stripped down that much.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Don't know if I agree with the tainted part. Cloud's false persona doesn't invalidate his interactions in Remake. He's going to carry the memories and feelings forward with him just like Aerith and Tifa do.

What I mean is guilt is not the same as love, and I think Cloud confuses the two emotions where Aerith is concerned.

Tifa had an inferred crush on Cloud b/c of water tower, Aerith is intrigued by Cloud's similarities to Zack, but their feelings don't remain static. I can't see either of them discounting what happened because he wasn't his most authentic self. Especially if Aerith has the sort of inhereted memories/feelings the ending seemed to suggest.

I think Tifa's feelings toward Cloud and his feelings toward her were the most undiluted.

As for Aerith, I don't think she ever loved Cloud romantically, but she did care for him. She does find him intriguing, and even attractive, but she doesn't understand why. When they finally get to their Gold Saucer date she realizes he's different from Zack, and decides there's enough intrigue there to draw her in but that she needs to know him better. People often times treat this date as a confession of love after her death not because it was so obviously romantic love, but because Aerith's death and Cloud's own perception of his ROLE in her death drove him to place her on a pedestal, and the story treated her as a saint after her death.

Gamers also make this mistake, where they treat Cloud's guilt as evidence of romantic love, and the developers have tacitly fed into this confusion. People forget, the entire story of FF7 takes place over the course of a month. Cloud and Aerith only knew eachother for about one or two weeks.

The LTD veers into zero sum games that focus on who felt what and when and was it really real that miss the point in an effort to lead a side to some sort of victory.
Sometimes I will just have a moment where I think how much I and a lot of others overthink a huge lot of stuff. The characters just don't look like their characters after they've been stripped down that much.

Also, because the truth matters, and discussion is fun. People often times project what they want to see onto characters. This is why terms like "headcanon" exist.

Falling in romantic love is not the point of Cloud's arc. Being loved and learning to love is what allows him to overcome his issues and become a hero.

I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with this point however. I don't see how love factors into Cloud's becoming a hero in the slightest. Sure, you could argue that he couldn't have defeated Sephiroth alone. You could make a point about the "power of friendship." Yes, other people stuck their neck out and helped Cloud. However, what were his issues? His issues were that he was a 'Sephiroth clone' with a fabricated persona, created by Jenova in order to trick him into fulfilling the Reunion and delivering the Black Materia to Sephiroth. The entire time Cloud and friends were "hunting" Sephiroth, he was actually being manipulated into doing Sephiroth's bidding. Seph/Jenova's possession of his mind was so entrenched that he honestly thought he was acting out of his own volition.

While you could make the point that Tifa's love for Cloud fixed his mind, Cloud's issue wasn't a lack of love or even the inability to display it. Cloud's issue was that he was essentially a mind-slave to Seph/Jenova. Cloud didn't become a hero because he learned to love, and the inability to receive or show love wasn't what was holding him back. He became a hero because he had a bone to pick with Sephiroth, but he first needed to free himself of their mental control(Seph/Jenova).
 

Edley

Pray for Sound
AKA
Issac Dian, Dudley, Chev Chelios
I see it as shared expressions of love that are not necessarily romantic that give him identity and purpose, not a grudge against bad guy/alien brainwashing. This is already off topic so I'll point to this write up, which conveys Cloud's journey better than I can.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fantasy-7-remake/ff7-male-vulnerability

Back on topic TLDR LTD Remake: It's Tifa and it always was Tifa, but with a big assist from Aerith and Zack.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Jumping in here — new member and old fan of the OG/Compilation, really loving the expansion of the Remake overall. Haven’t read the last 40-some pages so apologies if some of these points have already been made, but I thought some of the changes in the Remake were interesting re: the LTD.

It actually seems like they’re “toning down” the LT in some ways, or maybe a different way to phrase it — they’re upping the “friends/nakama” angle in terms of Aerith’s relationships. For me, while Aerith’s death was impactful in the OG, I thought there was something lacking in her relationships to all party members not named Cloud. Obviously they were all distraught, but the majority of her interactions were with Cloud, so while there were sometimes moments you got with others — i.e. her and Tifa sitting together occasionally — I always felt that Aerith’s friendships weren’t as fleshed out as they could have been. So when you got each party member grieving her, it didn’t feel quite genuine to me.

Here in the Remake, it really feels like they’re trying to emphasize Aerith’s relationship with the entire team. You get moments where she bonds with Barret over Marlene, her brief moment with Red XIII, and of course the abundance of Aerith/Tifa moments. I find it quite refreshing, and a welcome change from the OG. It’s going to hurt doubly much if/when Aerith dies, because I’ll actually believe the team’s grief.

To that end, in regards to the love triangle, there are several moments that could have been easily given to Cloud to fuel the LTD that were given to Tifa instead. Off the top of my head: Tifa saving Aerith in the sewers and their girl-bonding moment, Tifa saying “We found you” before Eligor, and Tifa pulling Aerith out of the Whispers’ grasp in Aerith’s old room. Cloud was literally standing 5 feet away from her while Tifa was across the room — he could’ve easily done that, so I found it telling that the devs opted to give that moment to Tifa instead.

Cloud also opens up way earlier in the Remake. His first smiles and laughs are shared with the Avalanche Trio. He remembers the Promise on his own and then he and Tifa share a moment in his bedroom where he literally tells her if she needs to talk, he’ll listen, and she says he’s losing his hard edge. Aerith obviously contributes to Cloud letting down his walls, but by the time he meets her again he’s already going through that process.

In addition to that, there were several Cloud/Aerith moments from the OG that were removed or altered. The biggest change I noticed was the removal of the prison cell scene (replaced by Aerith’s room, where we get Aerith/Tifa bonding) that showcased Cloud and Aerith flirting and Tifa getting jealous. Aerith also emphasizes Zack as “the first guy she ever loved,” and there’s no option to ask if it was serious or not. Aerith is clearly still hung up about him, given her entire demeanor in the park and leading up to it ("Are you friends with any other SOLDIERS?").

Aerith herself seems to be pretty encouraging of Cloud and Tifa too — she clearly knows something. She tells Tifa to “follow her heart” and a few scenes later we get Tifa jumping into Cloud’s arms; she teases Cloud about Tifa and the flower; and when Tifa worries about Cloud’s wellbeing in the Drum, Aerith is like “who cares about Cloud, what about you?”

Basically, the real love triangle is Aerith/Tifa/Cloud.

On the other end, Cloud and Tifa’s physicality is incredibly in-your-face. Like, almost every scene they’re together, they’re touching or holding each other or something. I guess the touches could be written off as fan service, but given Cloud and Tifa’s entire motto is “actions speak louder than words,” it’s much more likely to be a deliberate nod to “words aren’t the only way.”

This isn’t to say SE won’t milk the LTD more in Part 2, but I find these changes pretty interesting — just my two cents.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
As for Aerith, I don't think she ever loved Cloud romantically, but she did care for him. She does find him intriguing, and even attractive, but she doesn't understand why.

I honestly can't agree with this. From what I gauge in that short scene with her bringing Zack up, Aerith's lingering feelings for Zack will obviously remain a factor, but ultimately, she's going to be traveling and spending more time with Cloud. Romantic feelings are going to bud. Or else why bother having a chance to explore a romance option with Aerith if they're just supposed to be friendly feelings? Intrigue and attraction are also factors that can lead to love.

Also cute little thing I wanted to share!-


Need to replay Chapter 3 to see if Cloud and Tifa have something similar.

Aww this is super cute! I think all the characters do something like this. I love that they also stay true to character too.

Here's one I found of Cloud and Tifa.


They're always trying to peek at each other, but then turning away when they get caught. They're both so shy!!! Why are they like this? :(
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
What I mean is guilt is not the same as love, and I think Cloud confuses the two emotions where Aerith is concerned.

Tbh, I think it's more the player's fault (of confusing it) than actually Cloud being the confused one?! ( but you mentioned it this way later in your post, so I guess you mean it here too).

Anyways, I do want to make a post one day (when I able to actually organize my thoughts enough to make a cohesive post...which can be never) about how I think one (of many) reasons why LTD stands to this day was a mix of how the game was structured to subvert your expectations and the player's failure to interpret events in the later part (< this one being impactful not only in the romantic subplot of the game but also on Cloud's character and the main plot as well).

Every time I lurk outside of FF related forums I'm reminded of how much real this is and how much these (either wrong or incomplete) interpretations last up to this day.

However, I don't think Remake will have this problem. Having the technology to tell a better story, plus the extended time as the game was divided into parts (as well as the OG/Compilation that fleshed out a lot of interesting things, so they don't need to) will definitely solve a lot of these interpretation problems from OG. As @minami758 mentioned in their (great) post, a lot of changes are already being implemented so the perception of later events will come at the light in a more smooth way(or more painful, depending on the said event).


Aerith is truly a delight in FFVIIR. I can't wait to see her interactions with Cid, Yuffie, Vincent, and Cait Sith.

SHE IS! I think they truly nailed the "sunshine character" with her this time around. Barret had Marlene as a reason, but Cloud and Tifa spent what..days with her and were ready to went through a building full of people to bring her to safety. It just shows how easily she can win peoples over.

edit: to fix quotes
 
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odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Clerith romance is definitely budding, but I don't think Tifa will be retreating. If anything, this might even push her to be a bit more proactive, like when she actually grabbed onto Cloud's arm after seeing Aerith not be afraid to do it. We'll definitely get a few more scenes like the ones in the Train Graveyard chapter. But still baby steps from her.

I do fear Cloud's not the only late-bloomer around here. Everyone else has pretty much dated except these two. Correct me if I'm wrong? While I think Tifa knows she's attractive, and Sector 7 NPC's be thirsty for her all over town, but why does it seem like she's never been in a relationship? And based on what Barret said in his resolution scene, she's been fighting off all male advances.

Also, now that I remember, I seriously think devs trolled us in Alone At Last discovery scene, and must be laughing their asses off about it. Nojima's smug face while talking about them having apartments right next to each other is seriously annoying now. There was a bit of innuendo thrown in there for sure. Like, you really did all that fighting, and she invites you to her apartment, and when you leave and walk down the stairs together, Marle was alll like wink wink, BUT they really did just literally change filters! Even Cloud was expecting something else and was like, What?! (Wait, why'm I getting worked up over this? haha)
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
As I see it, the clerith romance is budding in this game (there's definitely attraction and some more), and indeed it's going to get developped hard next game.

Yep! I do think that if they're going to push CxA development, the chance lies in the next game to do so. However, having a certain character surviving at the end of part 1 makes me a little dubious about how it will be handled tbh.

At the same time we may see Tifa retreating because of her own doubts, so it's going to get reversed I guess.

I can see it happening, too. But after seeing how they handled Tifa ( and her relationship with Cloud) in Part 1, I'm fairly less worried about how the devs will be handling it in part 2. They seem to be developing their relationship very well, without rushing too much, and probably focusing more on setting the stage for things to make more sense later on in the story.

I do fear Cloud's not the only late-bloomer around here. Everyone else has pretty much dated except these two. Correct me if I'm wrong? While I think Tifa knows she's attractive, and Sector 7 NPC's be thirsty for her all over town, but why does it seem like she's never been in a relationship? And based on what Barret said in his resolution scene, she's been fighting off all male advances.

Also, now that I remember, I seriously think devs trolled us in Alone At Last discovery scene, and must be laughing their asses off about it. Nojima's smug face while talking about them having apartments right next to each other is seriously annoying now. There was a bit of innuendo thrown in there for sure. Like, you really did all that fighting, and she invites you to her apartment, and when you leave and walk down the stairs together, Marle was alll like wink wink, BUT they really did just literally change filters! Even Cloud was expecting something else and was like, What?! (Wait, why'm I getting worked up over this? haha)


You may have read a little too much into his quote?! :P I genuinely think Nojima meant it in a more sweet/intimate way, like "It's a cute scene, so please look forward to it" lol. As you said yourself, they seem to be late-bloomers when it comes to romance (and then they prove us wrong by jumping into each other in the HW scene :mon:)
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
Also, now that I remember, I seriously think devs trolled us in Alone At Last discovery scene, and must be laughing their asses off about it. Nojima's smug face while talking about them having apartments right next to each other is seriously annoying now. There was a bit of innuendo thrown in there for sure. Like, you really did all that fighting, and she invites you to her apartment, and when you leave and walk down the stairs together, Marle was alll like wink wink, BUT they really did just literally change filters! Even Cloud was expecting something else and was like, What?! (Wait, why'm I getting worked up over this? haha)

Well they had to filter that part. wink wink
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Clerith romance is definitely budding, but I don't think Tifa will be retreating. If anything, this might even push her to be a bit more proactive, like when she actually grabbed onto Cloud's arm after seeing Aerith not be afraid to do it. We'll definitely get a few more scenes like the ones in the Train Graveyard chapter. But still baby steps from her.

Well, like minami758 said, they're going to milk the crap out of th LT whatever their intentions, but I do find it interesting that they're using Clerith moments to develop Cloti. At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Aerith started giving Cloud tips on how to flirt with Tifa. So it might be that Tifa does retreat, and Aerith will treat this as an opportunity to teach Cloud how to reach out to Tifa.
 

RhinoKart

Pro Adventurer
Well, like minami758 said, they're going to milk the crap out of th LT whatever their intentions, but I do find it interesting that they're using Clerith moments to develop Cloti. At this point, it wouldn't surprise me if Aerith started giving Cloud tips on how to flirt with Tifa. So it might be that Tifa does retreat, and Aerith will treat this as an opportunity to teach Cloud how to reach out to Tifa.

Aerith teaching Cloud to flirt, especially with Tifa isn't something I had considered. Having read that I now know that my life will never be complete until I see this happen.

SE I will pay good money for a DLC of Aerith trying to teach Cloud how to flirt.....
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
I'm always wary to assume a certain character from ship A is shipping/pushing the other character from ship B or something like this because, as mentioned here, it can always be used in both ways and it's always so vague and depends so much of our own interpretations of said events to work...not worth even trying tbh.

Having said that, I must admit there were a few stances throughout the game that left me a little... alert maybe? Like the 'important person' moment, the beginning of the Wall Market segment and the "Follow your heart" part are some I can remember from the top of my head rn. I wouldn't go as far as to say she's pushing/shipping it, but these small but well-aimed comments kinda contribute to the feeling that Aerith is on a completely different page as the rest of the characters...like she's so far ahead of everyone else..?! Hard to explain really.
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Thanks for the welcome!

I'm not quite sure what SE has in mind for Part 2, but I could see it going in a direction where Tifa might become more insular due to Cloud's recollection of Nibelheim. One thing we've seen clearly in the Remake so far is that Cloud cares a lot about Tifa's wellbeing — there are times in the game where she just sighs and he’s like, “Tifa?” — and he might try to see what’s wrong but isn't able to get anything out of her. If they continue the LT, I could see Cloud being involuntarily pushed toward Aerith due to Tifa’s insularity.

At the same time, Aerith really seems to be keeping Cloud at arm’s length in the Remake, likely because she knows something about the future, though it’s not clear what exactly she does or doesn’t know. She can definitely see there’s something between Cloud and Tifa, so she seems to be wingmanning that, at least so far. And while I still anticipate Aerith falling for Cloud all the same, I’m not sure how they’ll do it anymore due to Zack’s appearance at the end.

It’s implied Aerith saw Zack’s last stand when the Whispers gathered — the camera zooms out from her after the first Zack appearance — and that seems to be when Aerith makes her choice to defeat the Whispers. This is just a theory, but I wonder if Aerith chose to do so in order to save Zack (even if it’s in an alternate timeline). She also senses Zack when he passes by her at the end. He walks by, carrying Cloud, and Aerith stops in her tracks to look at the sky. It’s not out of the realm of possibility that this makes Aerith focus more on Zack in Part 2.

With new party members, they’ll also have to build up Aerith’s (and the rest of the party’s) relationships with Yuffie, Cait Sith, and (potentially) Vincent in Part 2. If I'm reaching a bit, I could see the LT as a whole taking somewhat of a backseat in all this, and focusing more on Aerith as a friend to the whole team rather than a love interest of the protagonist. But then again, who knows?
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
So this meme made me laugh, but did make me think of something I always liked in the OG English localization.
98124734_10158786882659245_2014182002164498432_o.png


I'm sure the line is the same in Japanese in both versions. But in the original English, his mom says "I'll bet the girls never leave you alone."
Wording it that way added some ambiguity into Cloud's answer. "Not really," could just be "no, I don't have women all over me," negating the whole question as we often do in English. OR he could have been a cocky little shit saying, "No, the women don't really leave me alone"

:lol: Honestly, I did think it was probably the former, but it was fun thinking that maybe he meant (or wished he meant) the latter.
 
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1stclassasshole

Lv. 1 Adventurer
Personally I was never keen on the love triangle cuz it just ended up giving grief to my favourite characters in the game and that kind of peeved me but I was actually surprised by how much they went out of their way to balance things out. For example
that time Cloud wakes up after dreaming about his mother telling him he needs an older girlfriend... as far the OG went it was always alluding to Aerith, right? In the remake tho you have a plethora of small little details that give you legit reasons to twist it on its head...like the fact Cloud's eyes mirror the starry sky right as he wakes, alluding to Tifa...or that subtle piece of dialogue at Wall market when the sales clerk says something along the lines of "a great example of how one's age has nothing to do with one's maturity"... or the simple fact that Cloud spent a good chunk of his adolescence swimming in a fish tank and is mentally a kid still next to Tifa who's technically younger
 

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
I'm uncertain about how a Clerith romance may be developed in the next game. Remake Aerith knows what happened in the OG, that Cloud is acting out a fake persona, and she already has a close relationship with Tifa and knows of their close bond. So I don't think Aerith will be very aggressive about having a romantic relationship with him.

(TBH, even in this game, after seeing that Aerith was aware of what had happend in OG & Compilation, I felt a bit put off by her behaviour in chapter 8. Her awareness definitely painted all those OG callbacks -- like her "one date" proposal, and making it difficult for Cloud to leave her house by deliberately trashing the place -- in a very weird light. Or maybe this awareness of the future/past didn't really come to Aerith until the later chapters after this?)

Anyway, if there is a development in the romance front between Cloud and Aerith in the next game, I wonder if the approach might be made by Cloud instead; awkwardly, unsure, and stumbling, if so. Like, he might feel that there is something going on with Aerith, some remnants of his feelings from his OG/previous Compilation's self, and feels drawn to her because of that.

That's just me speculatin' though. I definitely see Tifa stepping back and becoming more cautious when she hears Cloud's recollection of the events in Nibelheim.
 
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