SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
@Maidenofwar @LunarTarotGirl

To add to what you've said about how certain fans perceive these characters. I think the very fact that some people view them with a bad faith bias shows how little they understand the story in the first place. Tifa is quite selfless so painting her as a selfish bully makes very little sense. Aerith is innocent and confused about her feelings so it's also unfair to call her a two-timing person or whatever those extremists called her.

I think most fans see and understand this, and so I wouldn't put too much stock in some of the extremist takes. I always view these characters with the best of faith, so anything that doesn't quite make sense or feels off I usually blame the writing or translation (or that we simply might not quite have all the answers yet) rather than the characters themselves.

At the end of the day, these kinds of haters are actually quite low percentage in the overall fandom. I do have my own biases, of course, but I still try to be as good faith as possible... even when sometimes my patience runs a little thin with some extremist fans.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Yeah in the novel itself Tifa doesn't tell Aerith.

But in Remake it's implied she does? Maybe. And that scene points to that but it's completely off screen and as Sacky points out Yuffie apparently knows. But it being offscreen makes it difficult to know the extent of what was said.

Did they trade stories about their crushes? Does Tifa know Aerith likes Cloud? Did Tifa deep dive into her past with Aerith?

It's a bit up in the air there.
I think one thing we know for certain is Aerith told Tifa all about Zack and vice versa. Tifa still asking if you heard any news from letters has me thinking Aerith is not accepting Zacks death at all and was still trying to find him.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
Yeah in the novel itself Tifa doesn't tell Aerith.

But in Remake it's implied she does? Maybe. And that scene points to that but it's completely off screen and as Sacky points out Yuffie apparently knows. But it being offscreen makes it difficult to know the extent of what was said.

Did they trade stories about their crushes? Does Tifa know Aerith likes Cloud? Did Tifa deep dive into her past with Aerith?

It's a bit up in the air there.
I am inclined to assume that Tifa knows about Aerith's first love Zack. I base this off of how Tifa interacts with Aerith in Gongaga (after she visits Zack's parents house):

-Tifa shows up right after you visit Zack's parents house (How does she know where to find Aerith?)
-Tifa ask Aerith about phone calls and letters
-After Cloud's headache, we see Tifa hold onto Aerith's arms (I interpreted that as Tifa consoling Aerith)

There is a possibility that Tifa told Aerith about her first love Cloud. However talking about a past love and current love are two different things. But IF Tifa did tell Aerith about her first love, I would imagine Aerith would be able to ask Tifa if she still loves Cloud (due to their relationship). However, Tifa's love for Cloud is a sensitive topic for her, so it may be too deep a secret for her to share with anyone. So to what extent Aerith knows about CT is ambiguous.

Aerith is also emotionally perceptive so her teasing CT could just be Aerith doing Aerith things.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
Speaking of Tifa and Aerith --

When Zack holds Aerith's hand in his world and then it cuts to the Gi scene of Aerith reacting to "something" when her hand was in the LS, Tifa notices it.

I hope we get a follow-up to this in Part 3. There is possilbity that Aerith may have shared this info with Tifa. In the case Aerith actually sensed Zack, it would be interesting if Tifa has this information.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
After Cloud's headache, we see Tifa hold onto Aerith's arms (I interpreted that as Tifa consoling Aerith)
In the English, Aerith says, "I guess that proves he doesn't know Zack after all..." while Tifa is consoling her which I thought was interesting. It seems other versions don't have this line cause I've seen some people ask/wonder what they were talking about in that moment 🤔 Unless a lot of people just missed that line somehow
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
Speaking of Tifa and Aerith --

When Zack holds Aerith's hand in his world and then it cuts to the Gi scene of Aerith reacting to "something" when her hand was in the LS, Tifa notices it.

I hope we get a follow-up to this in Part 3. There is possilbity that Aerith may have shared this info with Tifa. In the case Aerith actually sensed Zack, it would be interesting if Tifa has this information.
Yeah I noticed that too. I really wish they didn't keep this offscreen. Tifa and Aerith talking about Cloud not being in Nibelhiem and possibly Zack's existence that was actually a scene cut from OG too. There are unused files that show they were going to talk I think in Gongaga. So maybe that's what happened here.
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
I can relate to wanting to see/hear these private conversations that are obviously occurring outside of Cloud’s perception, but I also expect that to play a role in Part 3.

At times, it feels like Tifa is actively piecing things together about Cloud but she’s clearly missing key information. She’s no fool, and she sees something is not only up with Cloud but Aerith as well.

The nature of this story is what makes this particular part kind of frustrating because it can’t offer answers, it’s not that part of the overall narrative. Why are they hiding things from us? Because the answers spoil the plot of part 3.

They have 2 needles to thread: the players who are interacting with the FF7 story for the first time, and the veteran players who are trying to figure out the Remake plot.

Game 2 of 3 was doomed to frustrate if we’re working on these two layers. That’s why I have to see the whole thing before looking back at how we got there. Some things that make no sense in the moment may make more sense once the puzzle is solved.
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
I can relate to wanting to see/hear these private conversations that are obviously occurring outside of Cloud’s perception, but I also expect that to play a role in Part 3.

At times, it feels like Tifa is actively piecing things together about Cloud but she’s clearly missing key information. She’s no fool, and she sees something is not only up with Cloud but Aerith as well.

The nature of this story is what makes this particular part kind of frustrating because it can’t offer answers, it’s not that part of the overall narrative. Why are they hiding things from us? Because the answers spoil the plot of part 3.

They have 2 needles to thread: the players who are interacting with the FF7 story for the first time, and the veteran players who are trying to figure out the Remake plot.

Game 2 of 3 was doomed to frustrate if we’re working on these two layers. That’s why I have to see the whole thing before looking back at how we got there. Some things that make no sense in the moment may make more sense once the puzzle is solved.
Yes.

You make a lot of sense. Probably when we get part 3 this conversation might look very different because we will actually have context.

It's happened with other parts of the compilation before too.

I too will try my very best to give the benefit of the doubt and not jump to any assumptions before the finish line.

As I said what I see making zero sense now may be a work of genius by the end.

And as you said about spoilers. That's kinda I think why the LTD is the way it is. Because the feelings of the characters are narrative based and tied to the main mystery the devs don't want to spoil so explaining it ruins that mystery.

It also makes anything related to feelings extremely frustating especially when we don't get characters inner thoughts we just see actions.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Yeah I noticed that too. I really wish they didn't keep this offscreen. Tifa and Aerith talking about Cloud not being in Nibelhiem and possibly Zack's existence that was actually a scene cut from OG too. There are unused files that show they were going to talk I think in Gongaga. So maybe that's what happened here.
I was shocked Tifa noticed that they really focused on her seeing Aeriths expression when feeling Zacks hand in the lifestream. I hope we see the conversations offscreen also for people to understand why Tifa isn't confronting Cloud. People don't seem to realise that Clouds actually telling the truth to a strangely accurate degree, except Tifa knows he wasn't the soldier there. So in her mind this happened so long ago and she knows that Cloud is being accurate with what he is talking about except for she remembers Zack being there instead. So how do you confront this he's not necessarily lying since he has described everything as it happened, he claims to not know Zack so you know something is wrong. When confronting him he receives headaches and accuse you of being an imposter. He's gotten details about Zacks death completely wrong but also might have degradation that you don't want to advance. So you be thankful he's remembering stuff slowly and keep hoping this is a good sign. I don't know what people want Tifa to do here she's dealing with her own stuff isn't capable of knowing what's going on with him, and has a fear of losing him which is what happens when confronted. His brain literally rewrites the memory so he is right. We also know Tifa and Aerith have discussed how they will deal with Clouds problems and both don't mention that they actually did talk to each other about Zack because he's remembering it wrong and Tifa has told Aerith this. Previously he also claimed to not know who Zack is. These I can't believe both girls are lying argument is ridiculous.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
I can relate to wanting to see/hear these private conversations that are obviously occurring outside of Cloud’s perception, but I also expect that to play a role in Part 3.

At times, it feels like Tifa is actively piecing things together about Cloud but she’s clearly missing key information. She’s no fool, and she sees something is not only up with Cloud but Aerith as well.

The nature of this story is what makes this particular part kind of frustrating because it can’t offer answers, it’s not that part of the overall narrative. Why are they hiding things from us? Because the answers spoil the plot of part 3.

They have 2 needles to thread: the players who are interacting with the FF7 story for the first time, and the veteran players who are trying to figure out the Remake plot.

Game 2 of 3 was doomed to frustrate if we’re working on these two layers. That’s why I have to see the whole thing before looking back at how we got there. Some things that make no sense in the moment may make more sense once the puzzle is solved.
Its kinda meta commentary on Cloud's state of mind and how he perceives the world. Everyone seems to be in on what's happening but Cloud (and us, the player).

What is fact and what is fiction.
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
I was shocked Tifa noticed that they really focused on her seeing Aeriths expression when feeling Zacks hand in the lifestream. I hope we see the conversations offscreen also for people to understand why Tifa isn't confronting Cloud. People don't seem to realise that Clouds actually telling the truth to a strangely accurate degree, except Tifa knows he wasn't the soldier there. So in her mind this happened so long ago and she knows that Cloud is being accurate with what he is talking about except for she remembers Zack being there instead. So how do you confront this he's not necessarily lying since he has described everything as it happened, he claims to not know Zack so you know something is wrong. When confronting him he receives headaches and accuse you of being an imposter. He's gotten details about Zacks death completely wrong but also might have degradation that you don't want to advance. So you be thankful he's remembering stuff slowly and keep hoping this is a good sign. I don't know what people want Tifa to do here she's dealing with her own stuff isn't capable of knowing what's going on with him, and has a fear of losing him which is what happens when confronted. His brain literally rewrites the memory so he is right. We also know Tifa and Aerith have discussed how they will deal with Clouds problems and both don't mention that they actually did talk to each other about Zack because he's remembering it wrong and Tifa has told Aerith this. Previously he also claimed to not know who Zack is. These I can't believe both girls are lying argument is ridiculous.
Kind of a hard turn, but does anyone else find the legend from Nibelheim really weird? Like, almost out of place weird?

I’ve felt that it is ever since the original game. Considering the imagery and mythology references around Nibelheim, and the possibility that Tifa and Cloud are already tethered in the LS… I dunno. Tifa reacting to Aerith feeling Zack feel like bread crumbs to be paying attention to.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Kind of a hard turn, but does anyone else find the legend from Nibelheim really weird? Like, almost out of place weird?

I’ve felt that it is ever since the original game. Considering the imagery and mythology references around Nibelheim, and the possibility that Tifa and Cloud are already tethered in the LS… I dunno. Tifa reacting to Aerith feeling Zack feel like bread crumbs to be paying attention to.
Oh they are absolutely tethered in the LS. The legend from Nibelhiem being the mountain being the land of the dead is a OG plotline and is mentioned in traces if that's what you are talking about
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
Oh they are absolutely tethered in the LS. The legend from Nibelhiem being the mountain being the land of the dead is a OG plotline and is mentioned in traces if that's what you are talking about
Okay, so I’m not crazy! When Tifa’s mini LS scene brought it up I had that same feeling as when I was kid.

Something about that legend about the mountain screams “tuck this away in the back of your mind. Wink”
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
Yeah...

Nibelhiem in general is based on Nibel "Clouds/fog" and Nifleheim the world of the dead (not the ones that die in Glorious battle half of those go to Valhalla). It's a little bit like the underworld though, kinda like hell but not exactly hell. Niflheim | Frost Giants, Helheim & Yggdrasil

So that legend of the mountains and the dead going across them that checks out. Death is just a theme that fits really well with the name of this poor tragic unfortunately named town.

Nomura really loves loves his Norse mythology. To the point the end fight in Advent Children is kind of one giant Ragnarok reference. * fun fact as is a Lot of kingdom hearts lore he just Really likes Norse legends*
 
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eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
I do believe OG aerith has feelings for cloud and I believe this is confirmed in the Lifestream White 1 section. In it cloud is called her beloved, or a more direct translation would be sweetheart or lover. The writing is a little weird in the novel, we don't know if its like the narrator saying cloud is the beloved of aerith or if the feeling is more reciprocated as in they both love each other. I prob lean more towards the latter cuz I feel devs really want to keep ships non-canon. Heres a reddit post unrelated to FF7 that discusses the word but redditors all say that the word, "koibito" is never used non-platonically, only romantically.

Welcome!

Since you're newbie here, actually I have response of this and this previous posts of mine.
I hope you dont mind to read it, I wasn't debating whether she has romantic feelings for Cloud and not; but giving you more context.
Free to reply!
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
So, went to the place where the person was quoting the wacdonalds interview. Touched the poop trying to correct some misunderstandings. The response I got was interesting. "Prove this is a fake interview. It being set in a wacdonalds was a joke, obviously! That's why it got removed when the interview was reposted later"
Said person also linked the infamous "Koi space Bito" argument, you know, the one where Koibito means something entirely different when you write it with Kanji as opposed to not.

But more than anything, the rules there are extremely telling. Basically all of them are "This is a place for CXA, Do not mention Tifa or Zack or Zerith and argument is right out!" Out of curiosity I checked the Cloti subreddit and the rules were normal "be polite, don't be a dick" style rules. Also the difference in members was insane. 600 members of the CXA sub versus 138K for Cloti.

Having someone to watch over me is how I survived without further injury too. S'good.
It definitely put me in her good graces.

I am aware of them, but wouldn't say familiar
They're most fun. Next time you get yourself a laptop or the like try doing a couple.

Don't say it too loud if he's nearby. You might explode.
Being exploded is typically not a problem for Cloud.

Fair. Although she does seem to come around to genuinely liking Scout and enjoying his crazy shenanigans after a while... yeah he be friend zoned.
It's better for him this way, honestly.

They live in Drakengard world. Everyone is faceless moon hordes waiting their turn to die an ignoble death. Especially if you piss off Caim.
Hey now. They might also be dying to Zero.

I took so long to post that I've forgotten the context of this. I kinda think reading it like a non sequitur is hilarious though so that's fun.
Throat/ voice nonsense, but enjoy it as nonsense anyways.

I asked what the uranium's pronouns were, was told she/her :monster:
The Uranium talks? We might be getting into entirely new ethical quandaries here.

Sounds like a meal you could order at 7th Heaven.
Finish it in an hour and it's on the house.
Only Cloud and Barret have ever finished it.

Nanaki's tail flame would have a lot of peeps try to cast him as Pyro. I'm thinking we should mix 'em up myself. I need Cloud with the medi-gun and rocket jumping Tifa.
And Aerith with a Chain-Gun. Or maybe she should be Scout and Cait Sith can be heavy.

True that, but there is a point where you can tell the diff between Medic cheerfully carving you up and Medical vengefully carving you up. Ask Classic Heavy, he knows.
I think the only thing he knows now is pain.

I love them for their subversion if expectations. You hear a smallish guy like Scout has seven huge, mean older brothers you think of course, he got fast to escape! But nah, he got fast so he could go where the fighting was before his seven big bros got there and hogged all the fun.
It's also very indicative of Scout's character. Regardless of how sane it is, he's the guy who wants to be where the fighting is, even if he's hopelessly outnumbered and outclassed.

Using them to draw aggro is so Scout it hurts though.
I meant the turrets for Barret, but yeah, I can see Scout using his brothers as a distraction while he slipped behind and bonked his enemies in the back. Why it might even bring a smile to The Spy Tom Jones' face and a tear to his eye.

That'd sell. Also try the Grass Lands Grass, makes you feel like a big man who could flip a mountain on your foes... Also makes you feel like you have a tiny head. No refunds.
I'm reminded of the fact that all the cocktails at Artnia had Summon themed names.

Like I said, Tifa is always.
True that.

The back and forth annoying sibling energy will be great.
On a related note whenever Yuffie fins a beau it's going to be very scary for him. Or her.

Reeve has his "wow I just let sector 7 die" trauma. It's at least enough for him to get vicarious hugs via Cait.
It's why he goes ham trying to make sure everyone has a good time on the booby prize date.

That's a tough one. I'm open to suggestions cause all my ideas are falling flat.
We could go deliberately dumb and call them the Jennies.

Oh yeah, those people. Sticking with snake-fuckingly crazy.
There's overlap between the groups, I think.

I wish Barret could a seen that, his heart would melt and burst simultaneously.
Such is the way with him and Marlene.

I actually liked FF2, lol.
So did I, but that's still an accurate statement of how you play the game. Weapons improve the more you use them, you improve strength and agility by attacking, improve evasion by not being hit, you improve most of the rest of your stats by being hit, and basically all spells other than L16 toad and healing are traps. Ultima most of all, of course.

But L16 toad works on literally all enemies in the game, last one included. Plus it's how to get the best equipment.
 

SilverSisu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Zack bro
But more than anything, the rules there are extremely telling. Basically all of them are "This is a place for CXA, Do not mention Tifa or Zack or Zerith and argument is right out!" Out of curiosity I checked the Cloti subreddit and the rules were normal "be polite, don't be a dick" style rules. Also the difference in members was insane. 600 members of the CXA sub versus 138K for Cloti.
🤣
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Echo chambers are the worst. It never hurts to be challenged. That's why I'm happy we can talk with some nice Clerith here. Kind of reminds me of how people used to give way too much importance to Twitter back in the day. If the state of the world really followed twitter trends, I can tell you that we too would be in a rainbow world a la FF7, so different would it be from the state of the real world.

Square is first and foremost a company that has to make money with a product. Of course, the artistic part is part of the team's work, but they also have to deal with public demand, and if they "dared" to give a kiss to a particular character (the first time in history that Cloud kisses a character btw), it's because they know that the demand was there, and that it goes beyond the little tumblr and twitter circles.

Even we fall into the trap and sometimes feel cornered in our "convictions". But they've got the stats, whether it's the social networks, the media or internal data. Just the articles promoting Tifa and Cloud's relationship on fairly mainstream video game sites after Rebirth says it all. Maybe it's just me fooling myself and SE is going to stick a knife in my back. But for now, given the exhibits, I think these people are going to fall hard with part 3. They can't say we didn't warn them.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Even we fall into the trap and sometimes feel cornered in our "convictions". But they've got the stats, whether it's the social networks, the media or internal data. Just the articles promoting Tifa and Cloud's relationship on fairly mainstream video game sites after Rebirth says it all. Maybe it's just me fooling myself and SE is going to stick a knife in my back. But for now, given the exhibits, I think these people are going to fall hard with part 3. They can't say we didn't warn them.
That's something else.

At this point, from what I gather, most people who played Rebith took atleast one thing away from it: Cloud and Tifa's relationship was developed, a ton.

Almost every review from critics or anyone who wasn't or isn't in the know about all this shipping business will always highlight that Cloud and Tifa's relationship was one of the best parts of the game.

I'm not worried that Square Enix will pander to Cleriths in the next game, because it's now been proven that doing the exact opposite gained Rebirth a good chunk of it's glowing reviews and praise. So even if say, higher-ups at Square Enix said "we need to make as much money as possible and have the next game receive huge praise", the dev team now know that going even further down the Cloti route will do just that.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I'm not worried that Square Enix will pander to Cleriths in the next game

I'm just taking advantage of your answer to make myself clear. I'm not afraid for my ship. I have fears because the game seems to me to be rather honest and clear in what it wants to demonstrate, and I would find a Clerith ending totally unjustified in view of the clues and the writing over the last 10 years.

If the games had clearly shown Cloud's real romantic interest in Aerith, and Tifa had been left a little unspoken, I wouldn't be here defending Cloti. I'd go with the flow of things and that's that.

Tifa would have remained one of my favorite characters and I wouldn't have asked for anything more. The hero wouldn't be in love with her, so too bad for him I suppose.

We always come back to the same point. I take the story as it's told to me, and that's what I'm really interested in defending.

A ship with characters rather than people has little interest in being defended because it depends on the author's desires. If he's decided that's the way it's going to be, that's the way it's going to be.

Of course, that doesn't prevent you from being invested when the characters are interesting and the romance is well written.

But what I defend above all, and what I will always "fight" for, is respect for the story as told by the authors.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
Sorry for double posting but I wanted to talk about me to explain my philosophy of things with an example.

I love the trope of the powerful hero dying off-camera before the story begins (Typically Minato in Naruto) so when I played FF7 in 1999, Zack was my character. We didn't know much about him (boy it was a real pain to find images of him) except that he had saved Cloud, and that he had gone out with Aerith.

Aerith for her part is a character that I wasn't fond of. Her design wasn't my thing, I didn't like her in-game portrait art and her very enterprising personality annoyed me. So when we saw that she didn't seem super attached to Zack and seemed to have moved on, I didn't care, because her character was a little indifferent to me.

And then suddenly comes the end of AC and Crisis Core. We see them interact together, we see how this shaped Aerith and why she is the way she is in FF7 OG. And obviously how their separation takes place.

And here comes my point and a perfect example of story taking precedence over my basic preferences. Because that's when Zerith truly became something I believe in and something I will stand for from now on. I will die on this hill with you my Zerith sisters and brothers.

(and I made peace with Aerith since then. And Remake made me love her.)
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
What do they imply? That Stamp is Zack? :awesome:

Anyway to remind you, one of 12 lines in Aerith's farewell monologue in FF30th Anniversary Exhibition (2018) is:

Though I still dont get where and when exactly Aerith was musing this, is there any world that Stamp doesnt exist that makes her say that?

Wait what ? Stamp was already a thing in 2018 ? 2 years before Remake ? And they "wasted" one of her 12 lines with it ?!

Bruh. They really are cooking since forever for this Re:trilogy
 
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