SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Maidenofwar]

Part 3 would have to jump through quite a few hoops for me to ship ZA but we'll see.

 

[MissMDusk]

Oh I see, she's not jealous of Aerith specifically, but the circumstances around Aerith, i.e. Cloud deciding to run away and confide in her church instead of talking to Tifa and working things out with her.

Makes complete sense. Sorry it's early here, so I jumped the gun a little bit forgive me

I wish they didn't say it so cryptically though? Sometimes it feels like I need a PhD to fully comprehend what the devs are trying to insinuate lol.

 

[Yoru]

Part 3 would have to jump through quite a few hoops for me to ship ZA but we'll see.

I honestly don't know what more they can do... She loves him, she's written him 89 letters over 4 years (so we're past the crush stage) and seems to be waiting for him again in Rebirth... while Zack was living the good life... oh no wait he was actually locked in a chamber to be experimented on like a lab rat, before having the strength to escape and take his vegetable-turned-friend with him. And as soon as he realizes that he's been away from her for 4 years, his only goal in life is to get back to Midgar as soon as possible...

So yes, it's ok not to ship ZA, but honestly it's a bit unfair because he can't do anything more than he already has.

He even took it upon himself when it was implied that he might be history...

He is totally devoted to her. And to Cloud.

So yes, I'm sorry but it's just that you don't like it and nothing will help (again, no harm in that).

EDIT : I'm not yelling at you. I realize that my text seems a bit aggressive, but that's not the point. Just to say that unfortunately I don't think you can be satisfied when everything seems to have been set up to make it happen. If they didn't convince you before, I don't think they will now. Unfortunately, you can't please everyone.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Oh I see, she's not jealous of Aerith specifically, but the circumstances around Aerith, i.e. Cloud deciding to run away and confide in her church instead of talking to Tifa and working things out with her.

Makes complete sense. Sorry it's early here, so I jumped the gun a little bit forgive me

I wish they didn't say it so cryptically though? Sometimes it feels like I need a PhD to fully comprehend what the devs are trying to insinuate lol.

That’s kinda the issue with Tifa and Cloud’s relationship during their first rocky stretch being together: communication.

Tifa doesn’t voice her needs clearly for fear of rocking the boat and her makeshift family crumbling apart ( happens anyway until she finally expresses herself to Cloud in AC ) and somewhat misreads Cloud’s introverted coping methods for a lack of commitment ( it’s not, but can’t blame her at all for taking it that way ).

Cloud hides stuff from her because he feels like a fuck up and a burden since he’s so clumsy at adulting ( himself not realizing that Tifa acknowledges his efforts and appreciates them because she sees he’s steadily getting better ) his anxiety and discomfort with a peaceful life pile on top of each other until he resorts to old habits/the natural stages of accepting unavoidable death. His lack of communication and vague way of talking around his feelings give Tifa the wrong impression, and hiding your thoughts and feelings is not conducive to a healthy relationship.

Both of them take a step forward after AC, but like I keep saying, SE has been awful about showing us the happy. Reward me for being here for the rough spot by showing me the smooth spot

 

[imach0c0]

Part 3 would have to jump through quite a few hoops for me to ship ZA but we'll see.

Just curious - what are some hoops that Part 3 would have to jump through for you to like ZA?

Was there anything in Rebirth that you liked/disliked about ZA?

 

[imach0c0]

Oh I see, she's not jealous of Aerith specifically, but the circumstances around Aerith, i.e. Cloud deciding to run away and confide in her church instead of talking to Tifa and working things out with her.

Makes complete sense. Sorry it's early here, so I jumped the gun a little bit forgive me

I wish they didn't say it so cryptically though? Sometimes it feels like I need a PhD to fully comprehend what the devs are trying to insinuate lol.

IIRC - I believe there was an interview or article this year where Nojima mentioned that there was a programmer in the OG days that thought Tifa and Aerith were rivals or had jealous feelings towards one another. Apparently Nojima was surprised by that because it was never his intention for Tifa and Aerith's relationship to be portrayed like that. Which is why he took extra care to show them as close friends in Rebirth.

Based on that, I assume Aerith and Tifa were never meant to be portrayed to have any jealousy towards one another throughout the FF7 compilation.

 

[nars305]

Not really? What hurts her most is that Cloud hides things from her. That's why she doesn't really know where they stand as a couple. I don't think it's specifically against Aerith. She's happy to “feel” her at the end of AC. It's not really something she would do if she was jealous, I think.

She doesn't yell at Cloud for thinking about Aerith. She's yelling at him for prioritizing the past over the present, when it should be the other way around. In the sense that what's done is done, but there are still things he can save (the children).

So no, I don't think so. Yes, I think she's hurt that he hid the fact that he was going to “see” Aerith. And I think that's what they mean when they say that as a woman it's complex. Because she's supposed to be Cloud's rock (hello Remake/Rebirth) and apparently he'd rather be in his corner "with another" woman. So yes, as a woman it's tough.

People remember the moments when she's jealous in OG but forget that she's even more affected than Cloud when Aerith dies...

I always felt like her bringing up him going to the church alone went along with how when they both went to Nibelheim and regret going because it “brings them back to the past.”

It made me feel like she was more “having an issue” with him yeah, dwelling in the past, reopening old wounds, etc.

It’s like she knows the feeling, he went with her through it when she didn’t even want to name the bar seventh heaven again. It seemed like staying in the past to her.

So yes I 100% agree it’s about being in the past that she has issues with.

 

[Yoru]

I always felt like her bringing up him going to the church alone went along with how when they both went to Nibelheim and regret going because it “brings them back to the past.”

It made me feel like she was more “having an issue” with him yeah, dwelling in the past, reopening old wounds, etc.

It’s like she knows the feeling, he went with her through it when she didn’t even want to name the bar seventh heaven again. It seemed like staying in the past to her.

So yes I 100% agree it’s about being in the past that she has issues with.

Exactly.

And let's not forget that Tifa is a woman full of doubts. She wants to be loved by everyone, but is the first not to trust herself or her strength. That's what she says in her OG date. “If only I were like Aerith”. She admires her. It's in that sense that as a woman it's complicated. Because after all this time and hardship, from her point of view, she's failed again and lost her Cloud.

 

[Maidenofwar]

In Rebirth I liked the symbolism of ZA like when they were metaphysically touching with their hands, things like that, Aerith looking at the sky when there was Zack interlude, etc, Aerith's magic protecting Zack during the fight with Sephiroth, all the stuff with the ribbon, I just need a bit more, like a proper reunion, maybe some hand holding, etc. Basically since everything is supposed to link up to Advent Children showing how ZA came to be reunited would be cool I think.

 

[Yoru]

In Rebirth I liked the symbolism of ZA like when they were metaphysically touching with their hands, things like that, Aerith looking at the sky when there was Zack interlude, etc, Aerith's magic protecting Zack during the fight with Sephiroth, all the stuff with the ribbon, I just need a bit more, like a proper reunion, maybe some hand holding, etc. Basically since everything is supposed to link up to Advent Children showing how ZA came to be reunited would be cool I think.

Good point !

Enough with the allusions, now show us something concrete!

 

[pxl_pushr]

I always felt like her bringing up him going to the church alone went along with how when they both went to Nibelheim and regret going because it “brings them back to the past.”

It made me feel like she was more “having an issue” with him yeah, dwelling in the past, reopening old wounds, etc.

It’s like she knows the feeling, he went with her through it when she didn’t even want to name the bar seventh heaven again. It seemed like staying in the past to her.

So yes I 100% agree it’s about being in the past that she has issues with.

Also a good summary of the issue, and she’s also frustrated that he won’t let her help with the times the past weighs him down, like he did for her.

It’s the typical Cloud loop, I’ll keep to myself to not hurt others but in doing so he hurts others. It’s the same thing he did when they were much younger, and he did it again which is why I say they regressed him too far.

ReTrilogy though, these characters are still scarred and traumatized but I see much more effort in showing them trying to find a way forward. The Cloud of Remake/Rebirth wouldn’t behave like AC, so my remaining fear is that the Cloud I admired from OG FF7 will be overwritten by a more AC aligned Cloud.

To put it simply, making a character change out of fear of how they will received because of how people may remember them usually leads to a weak character.

 

[nars305]

Exactly.

And let's not forget that Tifa is a woman full of doubts. She wants to be loved by everyone, but is the first not to trust herself or her strength. That's what she says in her OG date. “If only I were like Aerith”. She admires her. It's in that sense that as a woman it's complicated. Because after all this time and hardship, from her point of view, she's failed again and lost her Cloud.

Yeah, and I think that’s why it’s important she recalls that Cloud said this time with the new start in his life it’ll be different because she is there with him.

So then she feels a certain way when now he is not really relying on her, becoming closed off to her, wonders about their relationship, etc.

 

[Yoru]

To put it simply, making a character change out of fear of how they will received because of how people may remember them usually leads to a weak character.

What pisses me off even more is that it's not even true! That's not how he's remembered!! The real quote should be “That's what people who learned about him with Kingom Hearts think!”

 

[nars305]

ReTrilogy though, these characters are still scarred and traumatized but I see much more effort in showing them trying to find a way forward. The Cloud of Remake/Rebirth wouldn’t behave like AC, so my remaining fear is that the Cloud I admired from OG FF7 will be overwritten by a more AC aligned Cloud.

For sure, having a hard time lining up Remake characters with AC. Especially as Aerith and Zack seem to now be able to communicate with Cloud.

 

[pxl_pushr]

What pisses me off even more is that it's not even true! That's not how he's remembered!! The real quote should be “That's what people who learned about him with Kingom Hearts think!”

Which is a real shame because Cloud would totally click with Sora’s Zack-esque energy.

I’m hoping with part 3, the era of emoCloud will be a thing of the past, once and for all.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Part 3 would have to jump through quite a few hoops for me to ship ZA but we'll see.

I honestly don't know what more they can do... She loves him, she's written him 89 letters over 4 years (so we're past the crush stage) and seems to be waiting for him again in Rebirth... while Zack was living the good life... oh no wait he was actually locked in a chamber to be experimented on like a lab rat, before having the strength to escape and take his vegetable-turned-friend with him. And as soon as he realizes that he's been away from her for 4 years, his only goal in life is to get back to Midgar as soon as possible...

So yes, it's ok not to ship ZA, but honestly it's a bit unfair because he can't do anything more than he already has.

He even took it upon himself when it was implied that he might be history...

He is totally devoted to her. And to Cloud.

So yes, I'm sorry but it's just that you don't like it and nothing will help (again, no harm in that).

EDIT : I'm not yelling at you. I realize that my text seems a bit aggressive, but that's not the point. Just to say that unfortunately I don't think you can be satisfied when everything seems to have been set up to make it happen. If they didn't convince you before, I don't think they will now. Unfortunately, you can't please everyone.

In Rebirth I liked the symbolism of ZA like when they were metaphysically touching with their hands, things like that, Aerith looking at the sky when there was Zack interlude, etc, Aerith's magic protecting Zack during the fight with Sephiroth, all the stuff with the ribbon, I just need a bit more, like a proper reunion, maybe some hand holding, etc. Basically since everything is supposed to link up to Advent Children showing how ZA came to be reunited would be cool I think.

I was just about to say that I think it would go a long way if we actually see ZA interact in Part 3, lol. At least CA had plenty of interactions, they went through things together, and it doesn't really matter if one views those things as friendship/romance. Because at least there was a mutual build-up either way.

Sure, there's CC but, to be fair, there's not that much in that game and... the writing is kind of what it is. And so far in Re-Trilogy, it's been fairly one-sided. I mean, definitely soulmate stuff! Feeling each other across worlds! But Aerith's still unconscious in one world and going through things with other characters in another world. So I guess this is my long-winded and badly-worded way of saying MOAR Mutual ZA Interactions in Part 3, please. XD

My request is the reunion, banter, flirting and maaaaybe a hug and/or a kiss. <3

 

[pxl_pushr]

I was just about to say that I think it would go a long way if we actually see ZA interact in Part 3, lol. At least CA had plenty of interactions, they went through things together, and it doesn't really matter if one views those things as friendship/romance. Because at least there was a mutual build-up either way.

Sure, there's CC but, to be fair, there's not that much in that game and... the writing is kind of what it is. And so far in Re-Trilogy, it's been fairly one-sided. I mean, definitely soulmate stuff! Feeling each other across worlds! But Aerith's still unconscious in one world and going through things with other characters in another world. So I guess this is my long-winded and badly-worded way of saying MOAR Mutual ZA Interactions in Part 3, please. XD

My request is the reunion, banter, flirting and maaaaybe a hug and/or a kiss. <3

Gotta be honest, the more I think about it, the less I think we will get that in part 3… at least in the first playthrough.

I wonder if they do an inverse of Rebirth where you unlock the intermission chapters on replay and that’s where you get more ZA without dulling the impact of A’s death.

I dunno, I just feel like they may give Z the revenge plot people project onto Cloud and have a happy reunion quickly followed by a sour note that drives him through the plot.

 

[Rin]

There's a quote out there that says "Tifa has complex feelings towards Aerith as a woman", and people say that she's jealous because Cloud hides in Aerith's church instead of talking to her.

Which makes sense to me. She’s not exactly jealous because she thinks Cloud is pining for a dead woman, she’s jealous that he’s more willing to take his troubles and stew in them in a place related to Aerith vs talking about it with her.

If I were to go to a place where me and close girl friend used to hang out vs talking about my anxieties and troubles with my partner, I couldn’t blame them one bit for feeling some type of way about it.

This reminds me of how one of the most popular CA fanart from the 2000s is a flip on the scene in CoT where TIFA is crying at Aerith's grave and Cloud is comforting her. But in the fanart, CLOUD is crying and Tifa is comforting him/looking conflicted. And it just goes to show how much this fandom loves to twist things around and be weird about it lol.

Tifa and Nanaki were the people who were closest to Aerith. Tifa believed that she and Cloud understood each other in regards to Aerith and would be there for one another in their mutual grief--it's why they all wear the ribbon on their arm, after all. But when she finds out that Elmyra asked Cloud to take flowers to Aerith's grave and he went without telling her or asking if she wanted to go, she's deeply hurt by that and that's what begins the downward spiral and doubt.

It's not even jealousy, really. If your partner went to your mutual friends grave without you and decided they don't want to talk to you about it, wouldn't you start wondering what happened to make them shut you out? Especially when they were openly shouldering the burden of that grief with you before. It makes Tifa wonder if she did something wrong. Then, Cloud leaves entirely, isn't picking up the phone, etc. but she finds out he's been sleeping at the church and that he's sick.

The scene with Tifa and Marlene in the church isn't complicated. Tifa holds no jealousy in her heart toward Aerith. She doesn't believe that Cloud went to the church because he's in love with Aerith or pining for her. She tells Marlene he went there because he "wants to fight alone" before amending her thoughts and realizing he went there because he doesn't intend to fight at all. He went there because he's given up entirely and he didn't think anyone would find him.

The church is fascinating because people often refer to it as "Aerith's church" but ToTP makes it clear that the church itself has a power that goes far beyond Aerith. It was where Ifalna was going to take her because even she could feel it's power. The flowers grow there, not because of Aerith, but because of the planet. It's a symbolic place for healing for multiple characters--Ifalna, Aerith, Zack, Cloud, Marlene, Tifa, and even Kyrie.

 

[Yoru]

This reminds me of how one of the most popular CA fanart from the 2000s is a flip on the scene in CoT where TIFA is crying at Aerith's grave and Cloud is comforting her. But in the fanart, CLOUD is crying and Tifa is comforting him/looking conflicted. And it just goes to show how much this fandom loves to twist things around and be weird about it lol.

Tifa and Nanaki were the people who were closest to Aerith. Tifa believed that she and Cloud understood each other in regards to Aerith and would be there for one another in their mutual grief--it's why they all wear the ribbon on their arm, after all. But when she finds out that Elmyra asked Cloud to take flowers to Aerith's grave and he went without telling her or asking if she wanted to go, she's deeply hurt by that and that's what begins the downward spiral and doubt.

It's not even jealousy, really. If your partner went to your mutual friends grave without you and decided they don't want to talk to you about it, wouldn't you start wondering what happened to make them shut you out? Especially when they were openly shouldering the burden of that grief with you before. It makes Tifa wonder if she did something wrong. Then, Cloud leaves entirely, isn't picking up the phone, etc. but she finds out he's been sleeping at the church and that he's sick.

The scene with Tifa and Marlene in the church isn't complicated. Tifa holds no jealousy in her heart toward Aerith. She doesn't believe that Cloud went to the church because he's in love with Aerith or pining for her. She tells Marlene he went there because he "wants to fight alone" before amending her thoughts and realizing he went there because he doesn't intend to fight at all. He went there because he's given up entirely and he didn't think anyone would find him.

The church is fascinating because people often refer to it as "Aerith's church" but ToTP makes it clear that the church itself has a power that goes far beyond Aerith. It was where Ifalna was going to take her because even she could feel it's power. The flowers grow there, not because of Aerith, but because of the planet. It's a symbolic place for healing for multiple characters--Ifalna, Aerith, Zack, Cloud, Marlene, Tifa, and even Kyrie.

Great analysis. And very good point about the church.

That's one of the reasons I never took the whole Cloud pining for Aerith thing seriously. Because in addition to all the other elements... personally if I really wanted to be with the one I love in death, I think I'd rather go sleep/live on her grave, the place where she's still "present" than the place she loved to frequent (a place where she spent far more time with her ex than with me btw).

 

[Ryeleigh]

Gotta be honest, the more I think about it, the less I think we will get that in part 3… at least in the first playthrough.

I wonder if they do an inverse of Rebirth where you unlock the intermission chapters on replay and that’s where you get more ZA without dulling the impact of A’s death.

I dunno, I just feel like they may give Z the revenge plot people project onto Cloud and have a happy reunion quickly followed by a sour note that drives him through the plot.

No, don't jinx it! I want to see them outrageously flirting with each other. XD

 

[Yoru]

And if you think that's creepy... then I'd choose to ask to live with her mother. To take care of the person she loved while she was alive, to stay in an environment that breathes her presence. To stay connected.

But instead we see that when he's not living in a house with another woman and “her kids” he chooses to sleep in a place that isn't even Aerith's property because it's a public place than can be visited by anyone (as we've already seen several times).

So yeah... I think he mostly chose a quiet place where he could be left alone. And again... it's the same philosophy as not answering the phone... but keeping it anyway. A place that's quiet but nevertheless not really unknown, and where we'd be sure to check if we came looking for him...

 

[abzy1200]

Yeah, that's something else I've alyways thought about him going to the Church.

Like, I know it's narratively significant that he chooses there, but where else would he have gone?

 

[Ryushikaze]

Weighing in on this, The same Ultimania segment that describes Tifa's complicated feelings also makes sure to note that cherishing Aerith is how Tifa really feels.
Along this line it can also be understood that Tifa is upset because Cloud is associating the memory of her good friend, of someone she cherished, with failure and guilt and doubt. She hates that her friend's memory is causing her man this pain, especially knowing it's not Aerith's fault.

Don't worry GLD, the chain shall continue later.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah, that's something else I've alyways thought about him going to the Church.

Like, I know it's narratively significant that he chooses there, but where else would he have gone?

Considering the buster sword is out in the middle of nowheresville badlands… church makes the most sense if he’s guilty about Aerith AND ZACK ( I swear people act like Cloud in the playground when it comes his guilt in AC lol nobody here though which I appreciate )

But yeah, the church has proven to be a little odd. It’s definitely presented as if we should associate it with Aerith… but it’s not literally an in-universe strictly Aerith place. It was built as a place to mourn the lost which is kind of a morbid spin on why Cloud would choose to die there.

 

[Rin]

Weighing in on this, The same Ultimania segment that describes Tifa's complicated feelings also makes sure to note that cherishing Aerith is how Tifa really feels.
Along this line it can also be understood that Tifa is upset because Cloud is associating the memory of her good friend, of someone she cherished, with failure and guilt and doubt. She hates that her friend's memory is causing her man this pain, especially knowing it's not Aerith's fault.

Don't worry GLD, the chain shall continue later.

Yeah, 'cause I'd be pissed about this too. Why are you making my friends murder about you? No offense to Cloud lol