SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

That's why Cleriths are still active to this day, preaching, because people don't realise this.

We're talking about people who see this:



And are like : "OH.MY.GOD. They're so in LOVE. I can't."

 

[abzy1200]

We're talking about people who see this:

View attachment 17073

And are like : "OH.MY.GOD. They're so in LOVE. I can't."

Then suddenly living together raising a child isn't anything definitive in their eyes.

 

[Empyrea]

FF7 is all about drawing you in with your genre knowledge and then flipping them on you. “Never have I felt it so keenly than this moment” isn’t just aimed at the characters, it’s aimed at us too.

And this is where we go back to making a case for their lack of media literacy. Imo, the hallmark of a well-written character is that there's more to them than meets the eye. FF7 isn't unique in that regard (not even in 1997).

That or they do know, and they just refuse to acknowledge it, as usual.

Then suddenly living together raising a child isn't anything definitive in their eyes.

And that's on top of how now a handhold is more romantic than a kiss.

 

[Yoru]

Then suddenly living together raising a child isn't anything definitive in their eyes.

There's a difference between interepretation and over-interpretation. And that's what I blame them for. Applying their desire to anything and everything.

At no point were words put into Cloud's mouth to express his feelings for Aerith. Ever. Grieving or blaming yourself for someone's death was never proof that you were in love with someone. In any world. It just shows you're not a heartless asshole.

Aerith could be madly in love and it wouldn't make any difference. And even that, the devs have started to nuance it.

I don't know but... it doesn't seem to me that you need to have the 3rd eye and access to the transcendental plane to understand that there's a difference between the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa relationship.

 

[Ryushikaze]

But GLADoS incinerated the handbook...

You mean you didn't memorize it in the three seconds it was visible beforehand?

I spent years gently but deliberately challenging their world view, so at least people being different shouldn't surprise them. I've seen culture shock drive kids deeper into Christian conservatism than they already were.

Here's hoping it all sticks, then.

Ah yes, I forgot. We can't always aspire for better, but we can always aspire for more.

In this case I feel it would be thematically appropriate, given the narrative of Brian.

If we ever did design together we need a third at minimum for these times when both of our ideas work so well. Although I guess a coin flip or dice roll could work just as well.

Maybe a third could help us synthesize the ideas.

I knew you'd go there

It was just a perfect setup for it.

You'd really like think they'd have known by that point.

Especially since they also made the neurotoxin.

Perfect.

I try.

Cause Aerith didn't have enough problems.

With fans like these, who needs detractors?

I do like both deconstructions and reconstructions.

It's a very good reconstruction.

Bottom of a lake eventually becomes the answer.

Oof.

Heat, beat, repeat?

More in the sense of "fire all armaments" really.

Yop tried to lure me there with memes. Makes me wish I could lure them back to posting

Discords and forums have distinct and different purposes. I come to TLS for forum purposes.

Ah true, in Smash he can be defeated by fire but not killed. Scary biz.

Always in the distance, a Waaaahhh...

It handles Skyrim pretty dang well, and Dissidia doesn't have Bethesda Bloat. Bin sure it could handle it.

Oh almost certainly.

Technically true. Although if for instance the USA sent intelligence operatives with military support to murder two towns of people to get rid of a domestic terrorist group/instigate a war by blaming it on another nation, I'd still call it a war crime

I believe it's the part where they blame it on another nation that it officially jumps to "war crime" there. It's unethical at all levels, mind, we're just talking about the scope and type of laws being broken.

When they bother to make one, yep.

I mean the incoherent fuming is also fun.

I forget, how long ago was the submersible implosion? Last year, right?

Yep.

Indirectly eat the rich.

Much better plan.

True. I sometimes miss choices like that.

Come visit sometime, then.

It's astounding it hasn't been done already.

I know, right?

Made sure to bring up with someone on twitter the fact that most streamers who played the game got Tifa's date, most people who played the game did, and that everyone is going to remember that going into part 3 - Immediately was met with deflection that "We all know why people go for Tifa, that's why she was in the Italian senate."

Her incredible political acumen.
Also the video was a CT porno so he was in the senate too!

and I'm just left here like...not only is this completely irrelevant, it's also very telling of the kind of person you are.

Cleriths just cannot be normal about Tifa! or Zack, for that matter. He always gets accused of being a war criminal...but that's kinda the whole point. Zack - a young man wanting to be a hero and do the right thing, only to be manipulated into doing evil for a military serving as a higher power - almost sounds like real life, no? Yet this is the kind of thing that gets brushed off solely to paint Zack as a bad person who is undeserving of Aerith, ignoring the fact that Cloud was an eco-terrorist himself. He's also easily swayed to kiss women who are important to him out of jealousy, but apparently Cloud is so deserving of Aerith.

For clarity, Zack isn't a war criminal, even though yes, he is being used as a tool by people who do commit war crimes.

Yeah, Cali's @ on twitter is literally "CloudxAerith" so I wouldn't put it completely past them.

Funny enough, it was actually her who made the Clerith blue baby theory, IIRC.

Yeah, that's entirely her brand of bullshit.

They try, but it's a swing and a miss...and then the crowd comes over to the girl and sings their praises instead of the person who tried the kneecapping.

Cleriths try their best to make people loath Tifa, see her as some sex icon and reduce her to just that, yet every time a poll comes out -"who are you going for on the gs dates?" - it's always a landslide victory for Tifa.

Also it's not like Aerith isn't a sex icon either. One notable Clerith from from some time back- Angelalex- was especially hypocritical about this, trying to say people only saw Tifa as a sex object, while using a picture of a super busty Aerith holding the white materia in her cleavage as his avatar.

Which is funny because anybody who's not ignoring things will see Tifa has a metric ton of it.

That's exactly the reason why they made that the lane. They need to de jure restrict Tifa from romance.

...I ship it.

Yuffie looks at Materia the way Cloud looks at Tifa.

 

[Yoru]

Proof that Cloud may be in love with :

• Aerith : Likes to spend time with her / Protects her from TURKS / Wants to free her from Shinra / He is sad she's dead / Still blame himself 2 years later than she was murdered in front of him / He is appeased to understand that the promised land is an afterlife and that he will have the opportunity to see her again
• Tifa : Likes to spend time with her / Helped her with Avalanche / Put his ego on the ground to free her from Don Corneo / Takes her feelings into account before anyone else (NC scene) / He remembers that he did all this so that she would notice him when they were young / Remembered and kept a promise many years later / Chose to spend his eventual last night alive with her

I think one side of it stands out more than the other...

 

[Maidenofwar]

I will always admit when I am wrong and sincerely apologise if I get the wrong end of a stick, even though he will never see it and I didn't target him in his safe spaces like some do to any working on things, I sincerely apologise to Katsuyuki Yamazaki. You're not that biased and a good fair guy and person.

 

[pxl_pushr]

There's a difference between interepretation and over-interpretation. And that's what I blame them for. Applying their desire to anything and everything.

At no point were words put into Cloud's mouth to express his feelings for Aerith. Ever. Grieving or blaming yourself for someone's death was never proof that you were in love with someone. In any world. It just shows you're not a heartless asshole.

Aerith could be madly in love and it wouldn't make any difference. And even that, the devs have started to nuance it.

I don't know but... it doesn't seem to me that you need to have the 3rd eye and access to the transcendental plane to understand that there's a difference between the CloudxAerith and CloudxTifa relationship.

Being here and seeing people talk it out has helped me articulate the “LT” in perhaps the most fair way I’ve heard so far:

The love triangle isn’t so much a love triangle as much as it is two women looking for the man they love in Cloud. Once the truth of Cloud is revealed, only one woman discovers the man she was looking for and that’s Tifa finding Cloud as he truly is.

Even if Aerith somehow ends up protecting them through the Lifestream so Tifa can guide Cloud through piecing himself back together, her tragedy is that she will never truly know Cloud as himself, but she still cherishes the version she knew all the same.

Also, find yourself a girl who looks at you like Yuffie looks at Huge Materia… or maybe don’t, it gets a little borderline at times…

 

[Yoru]

Being here and seeing people talk it out has helped me articulate the “LT” in perhaps the most fair way I’ve heard so far:

The love triangle isn’t so much a love triangle as much as it is two women looking for the man they love in Cloud. Once the truth of Cloud is revealed, only one woman discovers the man she was looking for and that’s Tifa finding Cloud as he truly is.

Even if Aerith somehow ends up protecting them through the Lifestream so Tifa can guide Cloud through piecing himself back together, her tragedy is that she will never truly know Cloud as himself, but she still cherishes the version she knew all the same.

Also, find yourself a girl who looks at you like Yuffie looks at Huge Materia… or maybe don’t, it gets a little borderline at times…

Yes. But unfortunately, both versions also rely on a factor that many people seem to forget. And that's Cloud's own wish.

I'll die on this hill, but Cloud has said very little about his own desires in the entire FF7 universe, and the only moments that come close... are moments reserved to Tifa.

From that point on, I honestly don't think there's any point in going on and on for years. But here we are.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yes. But unfortunately, both versions also rely on a factor that many people seem to forget. And that's Cloud's own wish.

I'll die on this hill, but Cloud has said very little about his own desires in the entire FF7 universe, and the only moments that come close... are moments reserved to Tifa.

From that point on, I honestly don't think there's any point in going on and on for years. But here we are.

And that’s where I loop back around and say FF7 is built to mess with your genre knowledge. It’s a fascinating display of not just what the story says, but what it omits. It actually says very little on certain fronts because they know what your mind will do with the empty space.

The LS sequence is supposed to be when they finally fill in the gap on Cloud. That’s the trick about moving certain reveals until the middle, it would give it all away… but alas I get the feeling far too many people just skipped over most of it for whatever reason.

Tifa asking the question we all should’ve asked from the start: why DID Cloud want to be in SOLDIER of all things?

 

[abzy1200]

Yes. But unfortunately, both versions also rely on a factor that many people seem to forget. And that's Cloud's own wish.

"Do I get a say in all this?"

Her incredibly political acument.
Also the video was a CT porno so he was in the senate too!

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Cloud was there too!

And for that matter, I don't think there's a single relevant ff7 character that I'd call ugly (besides Hojo), or less than good looking. Frankly, everyone is fabulous, so trying to separate Tifa from the rest is meaningless.

For clarity, Zack isn't a war criminal, even though yes, he is being used as a tool by people who do commit war crimes.

Yeah, I just kinda forgot to clarify what I meant fully. Thanks, anyway.

Also it's not like Aerith isn't a sex icon either. One notable Clerith from from some time back- Angelalex- was especially hypocritical about this, trying to say people only saw Tifa as a sex object, while using a picture of a super busty Aerith holding the white materia in her cleavage as his avatar.

One google search is all it takes to find explicit content of literally any character, ever. So again, Tifa isn't any more "fanservice" in this regard just because people gravitate towards her.

Angelalex? A Clerith? Hypocrisy? No, really?

That's exactly the reason why they made that the lane. They need to de jure restrict Tifa from romance.

And they're already running into trouble convincing casuals and new fans to take that lane, and come part 3 they'll receive a cease and desist from the devs that the lane is unsafe for use.

Yuffie looks at Materia the way Cloud looks at Tifa.

Platonically, of course. Her and that materia are just really close friends.

And that’s where I loop back around and say FF7 is built to mess with your genre knowledge.

People see their princess in pink and their knight in...rusting armour and think it's meant to be, but then fail to take into account the context - the plot twist that recontextualises everything you thought you knew about Cloud.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I will always admit when I am wrong and sincerely apologise if I get the wrong end of a stick, even though he will never see it and I didn't target him in his safe spaces like some do to any working on things, I sincerely apologise to Katsuyuki Yamazaki. You're not that biased and a good fair guy and person.

What brought this on? I don't recall seeing you being especially harsh on him around here.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Cloud was there too!

You'd think people would remember that part. I guess they're just obsessed with Tifa.

And for that matter, I don't think there's a single relevant ff7 character that I'd call ugly (besides Hojo), or less than good looking. Frankly, everyone is fabulous, so trying to separate Tifa from the rest is meaningless.

I think we can separate a few of them for very good 4 legged reasons.
Not that that stops some people.

Yeah, I just kinda forgot to clarify what I meant fully. Thanks, anyway.

No worries. I aim to try and clarify things whenever I can and assume misspeaking rather than malice.

One google search is all it takes to find explicit content of literally any character, ever. So again, Tifa isn't any more "fanservice" in this regard just because people gravitate towards her.

It's funny because there is an instance where Aerith is literally just a fanservice character (in the sense that she appears just as a bonus for her fans) and has nothing to do with the plot or game at all. That's Dissidia 012 where she's an assist character only. They already had Maaya on hand to be lightning. They had numerous magic ladies in the cast who all played differently- Yuna, for example, was also added- they just didn't put Aerith into the game beyond the equivalent of a striker.

Angelalex? A Clerith? Hypocrisy? No, really?

Angelalex was just a font of absurdity, really.

And they're already running into trouble convincing casuals and new fans to take that lane, and come part 3 they'll receive a cease and desist from the devs that the lane is unsafe for use.

So many will still drive down it, despite all the pot holes and spike strips and rabid weasels.

Platonically, of course. Her and that materia are just really close friends.

If they really were that close, would she have left it alone with Bugenhagen? CHECKMATE YUFERIA.

People see their princess in pink and their knight in...rusting armour and think it's meant to be, but then fail to take into account the context - the plot twist that recontextualises everything you thought you knew about Cloud.

Speaking of playing with media tropes, the funny thing is the game also gives us a literal princess... and it's the hyperactive tomboy thief.

Also that Cloud's true feelings are still present and visible before the big twist if you pay attention. It's like in a mystery novel where you're supposed to be able to figure out the murderer before the detective reveals the killer. Only in this analogy a bunch of readers are insisting the butler did it even though he's dead himself.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Earlier in the thread there was some discourse about the possibility of jealous Cloud but it was reported when Cloud's mocap played through Gongaga he said Cloud's intentions were pure. Since I had heard something along the lines that he favoured Cloti I was something like I'll take that with pinch of salt in case of possible bias then. I really should do more research sometimes. I might not have been particularly harsh but I was wrong anyway. Apparently he got the Yuffie date.

 

[Yoru]

One google search is all it takes to find explicit content of literally any character, ever. So again, Tifa isn't any more "fanservice" in this regard just because people gravitate towards her.

Something that really freaks me out is how the simple search with character names sends you to the worst Clerith images and sites. They've literally polluted the algo.

 

[nars305]

The love triangle isn’t so much a love triangle as much as it is two women looking for the man they love in Cloud.

I see it this way even more after going through Rebirth cut scenes.

Also which reminds me…I had said some time ago that the dream date is jarring if you skip the optional side quests. But after viewing the story beats alone that are relevant to CT/CA/ZA, it actually feels more attached to the ZA development in the story.

 

[abzy1200]

You'd think people would remember that part. I guess they're just obsessed with Tifa

You know when Tifa was showing Cloud her scar in Gongaga and Jenova headfuckery made everything static-y and blocked Cloud from actually noticing it? Yeah, I suspect Cleriths have this happen to them whenever something pro-CT comes out, even if not official.

I think we can separate a few of them for very good 4 legged reasons.
Not that that stops some people.

I chalk that up to me not being a 4 legged creature myself.

No worries. I aim to try and clarify things whenever I can and assume misspeaking rather than malice.

Much obliged.

It's funny because there is an instance where Aerith is literally just a fanservice character (in the sense that she appears just as a bonus for her fans) and has nothing to do with the plot or game at all. That's Dissidia 012 where she's an assist character only. They already had Maaya on hand to be lightning. They had numerous magic ladies in the cast who all played differently- Yuna, for example, was also added- they just didn't put Aerith into the game beyond the equivalent of a striker.

Smash too, she's a mii fighter costume.

Although, Tifa and Barret also are, but it still doesn't change the fact.

Angelalex was just a font of absurdity, really.

Aren't they all?

So many will still drive down it, despite all the pot holes and spike strips and rabid weasels.

Leaked image of your car after you drive down the Clerith lane.

If they really were that close, would she have left it alone with Bugenhagen? CHECKMATE YUFERIA.

"Yuffie has complex feelings towards bugenhagen"

Speaking of playing with media tropes, the funny thing is the game also gives us a literal princess... and it's the hyperactive tomboy thief.

Also that Cloud's true feelings are still present and visible before the big twist if you pay attention. It's like in a mystery novel where you're supposed to be able to figure out the murderer before the detective reveals the killer. Only in this analogy a bunch of readers are insisting the butler did it even though he's dead himself.

Well, I'm mainly talking about the personality of Cloud. Obviously you should have figured out at least by the time of ToTA that he's unhinged.

I'm not really observant enough to catch small details on my first run through of things, so when playing the original I probably missed a lot of these signs you're talking about.

Something that really freaks me out is how the simple search with character names sends you to the worst Clerith images and sites. They've literally polluted the algo.

Google has literally been poisoned. Just out of curiosity I googled "who does Cloud love" and the first result was a post on Reddit: "It has never been stated anywhere that Cloud loved Tifa"

Forget the Crisis Core Ultimania that claims Cloud has began to fall in love with Tifa. No similar quote for Aerith, if I remember correctly.

Also which reminds me…I had said some time ago that the dream date is jarring if you skip the optional side quests. But after viewing the story beats alone that are relevant to CT/CA/ZA, it actually feels more attached to the ZA development in the story.

Just something else here regarding the sidequests, it's really annoying to me when people say Cloud and Tifa "have no chemistry", because it proves to me that they haven't seen their frog side quest in Junon...if that's not chemistry I don't know what is.

 

[nars305]

Just something else here regarding the sidequests, it's really annoying to me when people say Cloud and Tifa "have no chemistry", because it proves to me that they haven't seen their frog side quest in Junon...if that's not chemistry I don't know what is.

I’ve gathered that a lot of the annoying things I read have little to do with what actually happens in the game and more to do with people simply disliking Tifa.

 

[abzy1200]

I’ve gathered that a lot of the annoying things I read have little to do with what actually happens in the game and more to do with people simply disliking Tifa.

Disliking all the characters, really.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Just something else here regarding the sidequests, it's really annoying to me when people say Cloud and Tifa "have no chemistry", because it proves to me that they haven't seen their frog side quest in Junon...if that's not chemistry I don't know what is.

Just to be pedantic, I've been reading this blog that's by a screenwriter and she looks at tv shows/films/pairings from the point of view of chemistry. She wrote that fictional characters don't have chemistry because chemistry is a human phenomenon, how actors onscreen click and feed off each other's energies. It's interesting stuff even if I don't agree with her on everything.

So ever since then it has lowkey bothered me when people talk about chemistry between fictional characters, lol. But that was just a meaningless aside, I'll let the thread carry on.

But I guess it's easier to say chemistry than "development" and "narrative weight" when talking about these things.

 

[abzy1200]

Just to be pedantic, I've been reading this blog that's by a screenwriter and she looks at tv shows/films/pairings from the point of view of chemistry. She wrote that fictional characters don't have chemistry because chemistry is a human phenomenon, how actors onscreen click and feed off each other's energies. It's interesting stuff even if I don't agree with her on everything.

So ever since then it has lowkey bothered me when people talk about chemistry between fictional characters, lol. But that was just a meaningless aside, I'll let the thread carry on.

But I guess it's easier to say chemistry than "development" and "narrative weight" when talking about these things.

Well, obviously. But I kinda just mean characters getting along in a flirty way, that's my criteria for "chemistry" here.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Well, obviously. But I kinda just mean characters getting along in a flirty way, that's my criteria for "chemistry" here.

Yeah when people say “chemistry” that usually translates to banter and open flirting. Not every couple needs to do that in fiction to have chemistry imo.

Cloud and Tifa may not do that too much, but they’re always there to support the other and somehow say what needs said. For example, Cloud talking Tifa up when she’s feeling discouraged about convincing people to help save the planet. That’s the type of stuff I enjoy between them.

 

[abzy1200]

Yeah when people say “chemistry” that usually translates to banter and open flirting. Not every couple needs to do that in fiction to have chemistry imo.

Cloud and Tifa may not do that too much, but they’re always there to support the other and somehow say what needs said. For example, Cloud talking Tifa up when she’s feeling discouraged about convincing people to help save the planet. That’s the type of stuff I enjoy between them.

Cloud and Tifa definitely get along with each other in their own fun way. Case of Tifa feels the need to mention that her and Cloud have silly conversations.

I think it's just that the compilation is so heavy on Cloti angst that people refuse to believe it when the idea of Cloud and Tifa having that kind of dynamic/relationship is brought up. The compilation only ever feels the need to cover rough portions of Cloud and Tifa's life, and this loops back around to us needing some kind of epilogue where Cloud and Tifa aren't caught up in something that prevents them from being happy together in that kind of way.

 

[Yoru]

Just to be pedantic, I've been reading this blog that's by a screenwriter and she looks at tv shows/films/pairings from the point of view of chemistry. She wrote that fictional characters don't have chemistry because chemistry is a human phenomenon, how actors onscreen click and feed off each other's energies. It's interesting stuff even if I don't agree with her on everything.

So ever since then it has lowkey bothered me when people talk about chemistry between fictional characters, lol. But that was just a meaningless aside, I'll let the thread carry on.

But I guess it's easier to say chemistry than "development" and "narrative weight" when talking about these things.

We live in a time where “fictional characters” are played by both motion and voice actors. Something even more significant with FF7 when you consider that they kept the same actors for several years.

So yes, I see what you're getting at, but I find her vision a little reductive. Especially when you see how much these actors talk about their characters and how precise the guidelines are.

And I'm not even talking about the Japanese actors who have been playing these same characters for more than 20 years.

So yes, personally I think it's a bit more nuanced than saying “chemistry is impossible in video games”.

 

[pxl_pushr]

We live in a time where “fictional characters” are played by both motion and voice actors. Something even more significant with FF7 when you consider that they kept the same actors for several years.

So yes, I see what you're getting at, but I find her vision a little reductive. Especially when you see how much these actors talk about their characters and how precise the guidelines are.

And I'm not even talking about the Japanese actors who have been playing these same characters for more than 20 years.

So yes, personally I think it's a bit more nuanced than saying “chemistry is impossible in video games”.

Yeah, if I could pick out two examples:

Tony Stark in the MCU is a fan favorite, but he’s only tolerable because he has characters written to balance him out. In Avengers movies it’s usually Cap, but in his solo films it’s between Rhodes and Pepper to take him back down a peg. That’s why he’s funny and endearing.

Loop this back to FF7, and that’s why Cloud and Barret work so well in ReTrilogy. It starts off antagonistic, but over time you feel it subtly shift to a more friendly tone. By the time of the GS date between the two, they admit they’ve grown a degree of respect between each other and they balance the other out.

In the original game, that didn’t come across as well but with all the VA and character acting, it’s a joy to watch.