SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

I’m just keeping some of the more antagonistic ones I’ve seen because I can already smell that when part 3 drops, half these types will switch and claim “they always knew it was going to end with Cloud and Tifa lul”

People trying to follow along for the first time and coming to whichever conclusion is part of the narrative so I have mercy on them. Call me an idiot however…

But yeah, consoling a friend is the “mistake” and not oh I dunno hugging her too hard so she says you’re hurting her? Cloud “not interested” Strife hugs someone too hard? I wonder what that hints at.

I've seen several of them try and say this section indicates he doesn't have feelings for Tifa because "more than feelings for Tifa" MUST mean he doesn't have feelings for her, not that his adolescent desire to be a cool guy for her overwhelms him for a bit.

Also I guarantee the Part 3 cope is going to be a "they capitulated to the Clotis" narrative, with some "OPTIONAL" even if it's not and a hefty helping of "Only the ORIGINAL GAME"

Oh, and as always, "Clerith is canon in Japan" lie.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I've seen several of them try and say this section indicates he doesn't have feelings for Tifa because "more than feelings for Tifa" MUST mean he doesn't have feelings for her, not that his adolescent desire to be a cool guy for her overwhelms him for a bit.

Also I guarantee the Part 3 cope is going to be a "they capitulated to the Clotis" narrative, with some "OPTIONAL" even if it's not and a hefty helping of "Only the ORIGINAL GAME"

Oh, and as always, "Clerith is canon in Japan" lie.

Regardless of whatever part 3 does, social channels are going to be wild. Not really looking forward to that…

 

[Eerie]

Oh, and as always, "Clerith is canon in Japan" lie.

Oh, I read something interesting recently: x.com

It looks like Tifa was famous all along, so much they added scenes for her specifically in the international version lol.

 

[Sacky]

Just curious what part of Reddit that is on. I'm pretty active over there and hadn't seen that one.

It's the Cleriths one but it was because the person who said this came over and wrote stuff onto my post on the Cloti Reddit with me discussing how Clerith ending can't work. Then I check their comments and they post stuff like this everyday? So like a bit scummy to come onto the Cloti Reddit when you can't even correct misinformation on theirs or discuss anything without getting banned if it doesn't apply to clerith. Like a legit echo chamber

 

[nars305]

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Some people really need humbling in part 3 and to get rid of an ego thinking they are the only smart people to grasp the hidden meaning in each scene XD
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They really are so shipper brained that they think a friend comforting someone crying would be called a one night mistake equivalent to a last stand?

It’s very Twilight Zone-esque when I read stuff like this. Why grasp a hidden meaning when it’s so in your face?

I feel bad to say it’s delusional but it just is. That or I’d be more understanding if they are people who just do not play the entire game/know the full story. Like they are just fans of reading about it from other peoples opinions. Which is another thing I don’t understand but I just have to make it make sense.

 

[pxl_pushr]

It’s very Twilight Zone-esque when I read stuff like this. Why grasp a hidden meaning when it’s so in your face?

I feel bad to say it’s delusional but it just is. That or I’d be more understanding if they are people who just do not play the entire game/know the full story. Like they are just fans of reading about it from other peoples opinions. Which is another thing I don’t understand but I just have to make it make sense.

I’ve just come to the conclusion that some people don’t treat scenes as part of a whole story and instead as isolated moments. I always ask myself if an observation is narratively consistent with other parts/aspects of the story. If it creates a contradiction or makes a character look scummy, then I’m likely incorrect or I have more thinking to do.

That and they can’t wrap their head around these characters not having the same level of meta knowledge as the player, even if the game seems to sometimes wink at the possibility that it knows you know.

 

[Sacky]

I’ve just come to the conclusion that some people don’t treat scenes as part of a whole story and instead as isolated moments. I always ask myself if an observation is narratively consistent with other parts/aspects of the story. If it creates a contradiction or makes a character look scummy, then I’m likely incorrect or I have more thinking to do.

That and they can’t wrap their head around these characters not having the same level of meta knowledge as the player, even if the game seems to sometimes wink at the possibility that it knows you know.

They legit think there is one intended playthrough that you can only achieve if you only favour Aerith in the whole game and that all other playthroughs are wrong and out of character, and you are punished for picking those ones. I have to ask how disrespectful to developers and writer's are they?

 

[pxl_pushr]

They legit think there is one intended playthrough that you can only achieve if you only favour Aerith in the whole game and that all other playthroughs are wrong and out of character, and you are punished for picking those ones. I have to ask how disrespectful to developers and writer's are they?

Yeah, imo it’s closer to canon to do everything and that’s why they tell you to watch all the dates because there’s important characterization with all of them right before things go downhill fast at the ToA to the end of Rebirth.

It must have been a little weird for them with the GS dates. In the OG, they really don’t matter that much, with Aerith and Tifa’s both having the same general idea at base: said girl is aware that Cloud’s not himself, and they try to reach out in their own way. However, a remake is going to have people hyper focus on them and less so on the context of them.

Developer insights into Rebirth are going to be way more interesting than Remake, I suspect. Many more interesting decisions sprinkled throughout

 

[Eerie]

said girl is aware that Cloud’s not himself, and they try to reach out in their own way.

I disagree. Tifa was trying to confess there. And it shows in Rebirth.

 

[nars305]

I’ve just come to the conclusion that some people don’t treat scenes as part of a whole story and instead as isolated moments.

This is exactly how I treat the story entirely. Even if it’s regarding Cloud and Tifa, I don’t care about isolated moments. There is a story being told, a whole narrative, and it just so happens that a major and very important part of that is the feelings Cloud and Tifa share.

They legit think there is one intended playthrough that you can only achieve if you only favour Aerith in the whole game and that all other playthroughs are wrong and out of character, and you are punished for picking those ones. I have to ask how disrespectful to developers and writer's are they?

Which is interesting because if you favor Aerith and do her side quests, then yes, you have that option to create something for yourself there. However in the concrete story you can’t change Sephiroth’s fixation on Tifa, Gongaga, or the dream at the end. Which Gongaga reveals things for both CT and ZA, and I’d argue the final date reveals things for ZA as well.

But even as I say that, that’s not really the matter anyway, because of certain obtuse interpretations.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I disagree. Tifa was trying to confess there. And it shows in Rebirth.

That’s what’s telling to me in Rebirth, to your point. In the original, I could see it going towards a confession or her trying to gently bring up his mental state. When it came time for a remake however…

Tifa bringing his “degradation” gets canonized into a brand new segment with Cloud being the one to open up about it. As a result, her GS Date is locked in as an overt romantic moment.

Tifa gets a dynamic change, Aerith gets more strong ties to Zack. The simplest answer for all of these story decisions: CT and ZA are endgame.

 

[Eerie]

That’s what’s telling to me in Rebirth, to your point. In the original, I could see it going towards a confession or her trying to gently bring up his mental state. When it came time for a remake however…

Tifa bringing his “degradation” gets canonized into a brand new segment with Cloud being the one to open up about it. As a result, her GS Date is locked in as an overt romantic moment.

Tifa gets a dynamic change, Aerith gets more strong ties to Zack. The simplest answer for all of these story decisions: CT and ZA are endgame.

People often forget it, but Tifa brings her doubts about his true identity to Cloud in Cosmo Canyon:


So her LS scene was always the most romance-coloured one - which, is still is. It was a confession she was meaning to do, but couldn't in the end.

 

[Sacky]

People often forget it, but Tifa brings her doubts about his true identity to Cloud in Cosmo Canyon:
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So her LS scene was always the most romance-coloured one - which, is still is. It was a confession she was meaning to do, but couldn't in the end.

Hence her date being the only one interrupted by fireworks in OG

 

[abzy1200]

Wouldn’t be shocked if this thread ends with Merle actually going and finding Leslie since that seems to be the theme of those being guided by the reunion flower ( it starts with one person pursuing and fighting to return and ends with the other party having to go where they are instead in an interesting role reversal )

What I think might be interesting is if Tifa meets Merle while she's party leader in part 3 while she's looking for Cloud and Merle is looking for Leslie.

I mean, how? Leslie doesn't know Aerith nor Zack, but he does know Cloud and Tifa. It's them who help him out, and... it's them who have the strongest reunion theme.

The idea of a guy hellbent on reuniting with his love just feels Zerith-y I guess. And did Leslie not meet Aerith in wall market or am I remembering wrong?

 

[Eerie]

The idea of a guy hellbent on reuniting with his love just feels Zerith-y I guess. And did Leslie not meet Aerith in wall market or am I remembering wrong?

True he did but his quests never involved her.

And again, the reunion theme is so strongly CT coded that it's in their promise and Tifa's theme. It was also in the LS scene "we finally meet again"), it's in Remake with Tifa's rug, it's with the yellow flower in chapter 1 of Rebirth when Cloud narrates the flashback (in the inn and in front of Tifa's house), etc.

Yes with Zack is's very visible but there's nothing tying them, the big reunion is the climax of the game, it's the LS scene between Cloud and Tifa.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I see the twitter Clerii are back on their "CT isn't a relationship, okay it's a failed relationship, okay it's a...." cope train again.

The arguments don't even change. They just repeat the same debunked claims over and over.

Remember, the "your room?" That's Cloud's OFFICE. Where he does WORK.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I see the twitter Clerii are back on their "CT isn't a relationship, okay it's a failed relationship, okay it's a...." cope train again.

The arguments don't even change. They just repeat the same debunked claims over and over.

Remember, the "your room?" That's Cloud's OFFICE. Where he does WORK.

I mean, unless Part 3 goes mask off and shows them clearly happy together in the future, they’ll just default to ACC talking points.

Also, you don’t get bedroom eyes if your relationship isn’t about to have an upswing

 

[abzy1200]

I see the twitter Clerii are back on their "CT isn't a relationship, okay it's a failed relationship, okay it's a...." cope train again.

The arguments don't even change. They just repeat the same debunked claims over and over.

Remember, the "your room?" That's Cloud's OFFICE. Where he does WORK.

They really just spin a wheel and decide what they're going to whine about that day based on it, don't they?

Also, you don’t get bedroom eyes if your relationship isn’t about to have an upswing

And you don't tell people you're a family if you aren't one.

 

[ViolaaFox]

They legit think there is one intended playthrough that you can only achieve if you only favour Aerith in the whole game and that all other playthroughs are wrong and out of character, and you are punished for picking those ones. I have to ask how disrespectful to developers and writer's are they?

That sound's pretty much how many otome games and Visual Novels work. Just that you have to absolutely play through all routes (in most cases) to unlock the true route. A pretty interesting concept which isn't even part of FFVII though. So I don't understand why some people pretend that is was implemented in the game.

There are parts in FFVII that could be inspired by these genres but even so it never effects the main story.

I see the twitter Clerii are back on their "CT isn't a relationship, okay it's a failed relationship, okay it's a...." cope train again.

The arguments don't even change. They just repeat the same debunked claims over and over.

Remember, the "your room?" That's Cloud's OFFICE. Where he does WORK.

They must be running out of arguments, haha.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I mean, unless Part 3 goes mask off and shows them clearly happy together in the future, they’ll just default to ACC talking points.

Also, you don’t get bedroom eyes if your relationship isn’t about to have an upswing

They're currently retreading the ACC talking points. That tends to be where these end up- trying to prove CT doesn't work because of Cloud's actions when dealing with survivor's guilt and then the fatal disease, both of which he's over after ACC. That and the DoC manual that calls Cloud an Ex-SOLDIER and Tifa a childhood friend.

They really just spin a wheel and decide what they're going to whine about that day based on it, don't they?

Kind of yes. That and ascribing all his actions after meeting Aerith to immediate and everlasting love, despite the man's literal words on numerous occasions.

And you don't tell people you're a family if you aren't one.

That's why they keep trying to shoehorn Barret into the arrangement. Because they think him (and Shelke, based on the fan idea that she moves in permanently at 7th heaven after DoC) living in the same building as CT somehow invalidate Cloud and Tifa being an item.

 

[abzy1200]

That's why they keep trying to shoehorn Barret into the arrangement. Because they think him (and Shelke, based on the fan idea that she moves in permanently at 7th heaven after DoC) living in the same building as CT somehow invalidate Cloud and Tifa being an item.

The more people who move into Seventh Heaven the better honestly, only makes it more likely that Cloud and Tifa don't have separate rooms when they have to accomodate two more people.

and also, it's always been weird to me that Barret returning by Dirge of Cerberus is used as some kind of "gotcha", as if Barret sleeping in the next room over precludes Cloud and Tifa from getting it on.

Kind of yes. That and ascribing all his actions after meeting Aerith to immediate and everlasting love, despite the man's literal words on numerous occasions.

God forbid Cloud is a good enough person to help somebody who was kidnapped by an evil mega corporation that he happens to have a vendetta for.

That and the DoC manual that calls Cloud an Ex-SOLDIER and Tifa a childhood friend.

It calls her a "longtime friend", no?

 

[Ryushikaze]

The more people who move into Seventh Heaven the better honestly, only makes it more likely that Cloud and Tifa don't have separate rooms when they have to accomodate two more people.

and also, it's always been weird to me that Barret returning by Dirge of Cerberus is used as some kind of "gotcha", as if Barret sleeping in the next room over precludes Cloud and Tifa from getting it on.

Somehow her still seeing Barret as her dad means Cloud can't also be a father figure to her? Even though CA ALSO try and call her a Clerith spritual child? I mean the end goal is to invalidate CT, the logic on HOW has never been properly explained.

God forbid Cloud is a good enough person to help somebody who was kidnapped by an evil mega corporation that he happens to have a vendetta for.

Apparently Cloud is such a complete dick that only true love will get him to do worry about or do something nice for a woman. Barret and Tifa can do things out of a sense of friendship, honor, etc.
(Cloud worrying about and doing nice things for Tifa naturally must be swept under the rug)

It calls her a "longtime friend", no?

Not in the English one, which is what I have access to right now. "Cloud's childhood friend and a master of martial arts."
Aerith for the sake of completion is "girl... who Cloud would never forget" The part I skipped was about her cetra heritage.

 

[Eerie]

They even have a keyword together in the Complete Crisis Core Guide (this translation is from TLS):

 

[abzy1200]

Somehow her still seeing Barret as her dad means Cloud can't also be a father figure to her? Even though CA ALSO try and call her a Clerith spritual child? I mean the end goal is to invalidate CT, the logic on HOW has never been properly explained.

Nevermind the fact that Cloud basically says to Evan that Marlene is his daughter, Denzel is his son, and just after being told Kyrie is Evans girlfriend, he says that their family situation just like Evan and Kyrie's.

Cloud said Tifa was his partner ages ago people just love igoring it.

Apparently Cloud is such a complete dick that only true love will get him to do worry about or do something nice for a woman. Barret and Tifa can do things out of a sense of friendship, honor, etc.
(Cloud worrying about and doing nice things for Tifa naturally must be swept under the rug)

I see a lot of people refer to the sandstorm in corel desert when it comes to this stuff. "Cloud protected Aerith instead of Tifa"

Not in the English one, which is what I have access to right now. "Cloud's childhood friend and a master of martial arts."

The character relationship charts love doing this as well. Square has to be annoying like that, don't they?

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

They even have a keyword together in the Complete Crisis Core Guide (this translation is from TLS):

View attachment 17121

Wait a minute… “through these the distance between them shortens”. When would this Ultimania have been published, Eerie? 2007/2008?

“Closing the distance” is a recurring visual motif for Cloud and Tifa in Remake and Rebirth. There’s the barstool occupying space between the two at Seventh Heaven, the hug in Aerith’s Garden, the acres of space between them in the inn at Under Junon, the Gongaga scene, the kiss. It’s like those references to Stamp in a Japanese event that were unearthed from 2017/2018 following the release of Remake. Is this a visual motif the creative team had in mind all along, but only now had the chance to realise it?

Regardless of potential past intentions, the imagery of closing space between Cloud and Tifa represents their growing intimacy which was communicated more simply through the Lifestream and Highwind scenes in the original. With that in mind, it’s surprising how much ground as been covered in Remake and Rebirth already before we have even gotten to those scenes. Then again, newcomers and less… romantically ready members of the audience might feel cheated by the twists of the Lifestream scene if it was not heavily foreshadowed in the first two Remake instalments.

I’ve seen the takes from our friends on the other side of the debate that the kiss is only “fan-service” or is the non-canon route. I can’t argue strongly about the text at the end of Rebirth (as I still haven’t finished the game!!!) but I have seen plenty of reactions to the kiss scene on Twitter and YouTube, and across gaming media outlets. Even if the kiss were indeed “fan service” doesn’t this create a problem for the final game? So many people have seen it and reacted positively to it - what does Square do about these members of their audience? Ignore them? Antagonise them? Why put it in Rebirth if they were planning to retreat from it in the next game? The arguments against it’s significance don’t fully add up.

I think it’s a little too late to put the genie back in the bottle and say: “lol jk, ignore all that sexual tension between Cloud and Tifa from the first two games”. Going back to the quote that Eerie shared above, I don’t know why we wouldn’t continue to see Cloud and Tifa continue to shorten that distance between them in the final game. Square has written about it in Ultimanias, it was present in the original, redone in miniature in Advent Children. Why would our authors abandon this idea that they have revisited multiple times at this late juncture in the Remake project?

(This post was largely an exercise in rationalising some of the more objectionable takes I’m come across recently. It would probably be healthier if I didn’t seek them out in the first instance!)