SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Yes, and that's the problem, as far as the Clerith side is concerned. Given an even playing field, they lose, hence the need to kneecap the opposition with "optional!" "Jealousy" "Fanservice" etc.
While I kept up with the series itself, I wasn't really involved in the Naruto fandom but I'd imagine Hinata probably got similar treatment from NaruSaku fans. "Hinata isn't even the heroine" and such...

This seems like a trend when it comes to series with big shipping fandoms. People tend to have this impression that things will go a certain way from the beginning that they are unwilling to accept when new evidence presents itself to contradict that. They become so invested in that initial impression that they are unwilling to accept anything else.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
While I kept up with the series itself, I wasn't really involved in the Naruto fandom but I'd imagine Hinata probably got similar treatment from NaruSaku fans. "Hinata isn't even the heroine" and such...

This seems like a trend when it comes to series with big shipping fandoms. People tend to have this impression that things will go a certain way from the beginning that they are unwilling to accept when new evidence presents itself to contradict that. They become so invested in that initial impression that they are unwilling to accept anything else.
It definitely went that way with Bleach, and we have a record of the meltdown from around the series conclusion.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Fun times with Yama playing all the dates: x.com and a translation of what he said about the CT dates.

Cloud and Tifa were made walking side by side in the theater, as many noticed, and of course it was intentional. He also does elevate the Tifa date above the others, although he said no matter what all dates connect seemlessly in the main story. Anyway he was very talkative so you can read the post!
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Fun times with Yama playing all the dates: x.com and a translation of what he said about the CT dates.

Cloud and Tifa were made walking side by side in the theater, as many noticed, and of course it was intentional. He also does elevate the Tifa date above the others, although he said no matter what all dates connect seemlessly in the main story. Anyway he was very talkative so you can read the post!
Specifically, he divided things into "Tifa's date" and "Not Tifa's date" branches, and that everything makes sense no matter who you get on the date, but Cloud and Tifa's glances will be better understood if you get her date.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Make no mistake, people.

Even if Part 3 is definitively Cloti, the next cope will almost certainly be a romantic reunion in the Lifestream.
I think if CT and ZA kiss, it'll be the end. I 100% believe in a CT kiss (at least 2 even as I like to put it xD) and a ZA kiss is honestly likely too as both Zack and Aerith deserve happiness too, albeit a bittersweet one since they're in the LS. We'll have two reunions in the Lifestrea: Cloud and Tifa, as per the OG, and Zack and Aerith, as it's a scene we need to see.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I think if CT and ZA kiss, it'll be the end. I 100% believe in a CT kiss (at least 2 even as I like to put it xD) and a ZA kiss is honestly likely too as both Zack and Aerith deserve happiness too, albeit a bittersweet one since they're in the LS. We'll have two reunions in the Lifestrea: Cloud and Tifa, as per the OG, and Zack and Aerith, as it's a scene we need to see.
I agree that we need a Z/A kiss as well, but I don't think it's going to truly get rid of the real crazy shippers. Like, there will be copes and conspiracy theories galore. I'd wager we'll even get some "well the REAL Cloud and Aerith who totally exist!" types emerge.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think if CT and ZA kiss, it'll be the end. I 100% believe in a CT kiss (at least 2 even as I like to put it xD) and a ZA kiss is honestly likely too as both Zack and Aerith deserve happiness too, albeit a bittersweet one since they're in the LS. We'll have two reunions in the Lifestrea: Cloud and Tifa, as per the OG, and Zack and Aerith, as it's a scene we need to see.
I agree that we need a Z/A kiss as well, but I don't think it's going to truly get rid of the real crazy shippers. Like, there will be copes and conspiracy theories galore. I'd wager we'll even get some "well the REAL Cloud and Aerith who totally exist!" types emerge.
I think that even in that case, the cope will then just move to the next thing. They'll say Zack is just the Cloud waiting room so she has someone to spend time with until Cloud arrives. And that Tifa is the Aerith waiting room.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I think that even in that case, the cope will then just move to the next thing. They'll say Zack is just the Cloud waiting room so she has someone to spend time with until Cloud arrives. And that Tifa is the Aerith waiting room.
I mean that's basically been the cope since AC came out. The crazy won't ever fully go away, but we're already seeing a major shift in the zeitgeist just from what was shown in Remake and Rebirth
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
I mean that's basically been the cope since AC came out. The crazy won't ever fully go away, but we're already seeing a major shift in the zeitgeist just from what was shown in Remake and Rebirth
At this point, I want two things by the time this is all wrapped up:

1) I want to be personally satisfied in the depictions and payoffs of everything set up in Remake and Rebirth ( ZA/CT included, but also whatever they’re cooking for Sephiroth )

2) I want anyone who tries to claim Tifa is a supporting character or whatever nonsense to play down her importance, to get laughed out of the room like they deserve.

The fringes of each ship won’t ever relent, but as long as anyone can talk about the character arcs of Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith in their entirety without fear of being drowned in half baked takes and made up whatever, I consider it a win.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
People can argue over endgame, but you cannot imply that Tifa isn't also the heroine of the story. She's just as relevant as Aerith, for different reasons.
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
Oh, you'd be surprised, this argument comes back like a broken record.
It really does, and I just don’t get it. Cloud minus Tifa = him being a black cloak stumbling around the train station in Midgar.

Both characters can be important without taking something from the other, and it’s odd some people don’t understand that?
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
There's quite a bit of evidence both in-game and in developer material that both Aerith and Tifa are the heroines.

This is just a case of "Tifa cannot be equal to Aerith" because they see that as a threat to their favorite character/ship.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
I was actually thinking about Tifa's importance to Cloud and the plot. I mean, at Cloud's lowest point, she's the one who helped him recover and become the best version of himself. And then he went on to defeat Sephiroth and save the world.

So it's so bizarre that people look at that and go "wow, what a beautiful platonic bond uwu" (if they even acknowledge the "platonic" part). If Aerith was supposed to be the love interest, shouldn't she have been the one to do that? And she didn't? So? Does anything click or are these people just ignorant of storytelling, romance and Japanese media? Or is it just a vested interest in denial? Because obviously Cloud was in love with Aerith, why else would he have been devastated at someone dying right in front of his face, and obviously Aerith was the sole heroine and obviously Tifa was just an unimportant side character without which the story would still work just fine.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I was actually thinking about Tifa's importance to Cloud and the plot. I mean, at Cloud's lowest point, she's the one who helped him recover and become the best version of himself. And then he went on to defeat Sephiroth and save the world.

So it's so bizarre that people look at that and go "wow, what a beautiful platonic bond uwu" (if they even acknowledge the "platonic" part). If Aerith was supposed to be the love interest, shouldn't she have been the one to do that? And she didn't? So? Does anything click or are these people just ignorant of storytelling, romance and Japanese media? Or is it just a vested interest in denial? Because obviously Cloud was in love with Aerith, why else would he have been devastated at someone dying right in front of his face, and obviously Aerith was the sole heroine and obviously Tifa was just an unimportant side character without which the story would still work just fine.
I'm not sure how the devastation argument means anything. Cloud would have a similar reaction to Tifa dying, perhaps even worse.

Actually to be fair, I think Cloud would have a pretty bad reaction to anyone on the team dying.

I do, however, think this is a case of the promotional material and the stuff shown in Disc 1 giving certain fans a very strong impression that they are just unwilling to let go of. When you get so strongly invested in something, seeing it change can be hard to accept. Unfortunately, FFVII quite often plays with audience's genre expectations. Aerith is the white mage character, and I think at the time the personality type of those kinds of characters were the shy, introverted type while characters like Tifa are the more outgoing and direct type. White mage characters were the stereotypical love interest type characters too, which gets shattered later. And a character dying mid-game was rare. FFVII subverts these things, but too many are attached to the "stereotype" if that makes sense.

By the way, the story actually does not work without Tifa, and you would have to rewrite quite a bit to fit into the present story.

You would have to change Cloud's motivation for leaving Nibelheim. You would have to change how he is fixed from his mako coma. Tifa is the one that introduces Cloud to Avalanche which allows him to meet Aerith in the first place. If Tifa doesn't go meet Don Corneo, Aerith and Cloud would split up at the playground. If Tifa didn't ask Aerith to save Marlene, she would not be taken to Shinra HQ where the cast is put on Sephiroth's trail. Much of the Nibelheim incident would need to be altered so that it's still relevant to Cloud's identity.

After Aerith dies, he would need another reason to break down at the Northern Cave as it's not Sephiroth's reveal of that breaks him but the perception that Tifa might have lost faith in him. Then he needs help to be pieced back together, also Tifa who took care of him as a vegetable.

That last part is especially important because he's a vegetable. This means she likely helped the nurse with responsibilities that are probably not an easy thing for someone to do. That's real love... being there for someone who might not ever even wake up or function normally.

Sorry for the ramble. lol
 

pxl_pushr

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pixel
There's quite a bit of evidence both in-game and in developer material that both Aerith and Tifa are the heroines.

This is just a case of "Tifa cannot be equal to Aerith" because they see that as a threat to their favorite character/ship.
It’s definitely a small group of bias players who push that line of thought, regardless of Disc 2 and 3 completely disagreeing with them.

I dunno. I think Rebirth goes out of its way to bring Aerith back down to earth and underscore Tifa’s importance in this middle section. You need both for this story, and shipping preferences don’t change that.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
This is just a case of "Tifa cannot be equal to Aerith" because they see that as a threat to their favorite character/ship.
I'll go a step further and say people don't like to equate Tifa to Aerith because of antiquated views on how each of them dress.

I think if CT and ZA kiss, it'll be the end
Nah, they've fed the "both sides" argument too much over the years, intentional or not. The "Cloud loves both girls" view will never dissappear from a casual perspective. And definitely not from a hardcore shipper perspective.

Of course, the "debate" would be over, but it has been for 27 years now, so what exactly is new?
 
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eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
I think that even in that case, the cope will then just move to the next thing. They'll say Zack is just the Cloud waiting room so she has someone to spend time with until Cloud arrives. And that Tifa is the Aerith waiting room.
Nomura: I hope you enjoy the game we created and stay with us till the end. Even if someone misinterprets it, I say, "I see! Well, that can't be helped!", it's fine [laughs]

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Source: 『FFVII リバース』野村哲也氏が語る、『FFVII』の特別さとは? オリジナル版から25年以上の時を経てなお語り継がれる“あのシーン”について、その思いを語る

Funny because Nomura isn't "leave it up to player's interpretation" anymore since he mentions misinterpretation. So yeah, we can't help them.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Nomura: I hope you enjoy the game we created and stay with us till the end. Even if someone misinterprets it, I say, "I see! Well, that can't be helped!", it's fine [laughs]

View attachment 17138
Source: 『FFVII リバース』野村哲也氏が語る、『FFVII』の特別さとは? オリジナル版から25年以上の時を経てなお語り継がれる“あのシーン”について、その思いを語る

Funny because Nomura isn't "leave it up to player's interpretation" anymore since he mentions misinterpretation. So yeah, we can't help them.
Yeah, they definitely want to leave things less open for interpretation.

The issue is... it'll just be ignored. But like Nomura said; "Can't be helped."
 

Xombii

Rookie Adventurer
AKA
Zombinushka
Hi, I've been lurking around here for a while, and read up on all of... this. I am not good with words, I suppose it's one reason I have always just related to Cloud as a character. But here I am I suppose; apologies for rambling in advance.

FF7 has been my favourite game, my favourite story, since I first played it in 97.
Even as a 14 year old kid, I knew how the story went, relevant to the topic. with Tifa rescuing Cloud in Mideel, the lifestream scene being my alltime favourite in any game. Yea, even then I twigged what happened under the Highwind. We all SAW the conversation on the airship and Tifa hugging him after the battle.

If I'm honest, Aerith's death didn't really bother me, not half as much as Cloud breaking down in the North Crater. I was distraught by that part honestly. What I'm probably trying to say is I felt so much more for the plot between Cloud's ears than whatever happened outside, characters died every five minutes and over the years it hasn't changed Aer was one of the many and that's how I saw it. The whole team mourned. Tifa, Yuffie, cried. They carried on.

Obviously back then I wasn't a shipper or even really into romance, the story has so much more; but I did know there was some sort of fandom infighting that I ignored for the most part. I even collected the Amano art with Cloud and Aerith at the time and still I knew the story. Cloud was with Tifa, and I was... a mostly indifferent 14 year old, lol. Nevertheless I watched ACC, for the fights mostly, and didn't question them being together. I saw Aerith in side games and shrugged. She was pretty iconic, a well known character, I liked her as a character well enough despite har being removed from the party and mostly ignored for half the game. I played Crisis Core, and liked it, the ending made me cry, like I imagine everyone else.

I'm not sure why I felt the need to recount my feelings over this game lol. Though, I've never forgotten that time.

Well, dozens of years later, my ridiculously excited autistic old lady ass got hold of the remake and loved it. Cloud and Tifa were much closer than I remembered, but I was still mostly in it for the fighting, the drama. Still, trying to get back into the fandom I went looking for more. I read the novels and then I noticed the trend over the internet and forums. 'Aerith,' 'Aerith and Cloud,' everywhere. Or 'Cloud loves both girls, it's up to interpretation.'

I didn't fully agree but I shrugged and moved on. Sites like tvtropes and reddit aren't exactly the bastions of truth and so on, and I was pretty secure in my memories of playing the OG two dozen times by this point. It was quite easy to see that Cloud had dropped back in Midgar under the apparent assumption Tifa was his wife and he would do nasty things to anyone that looked at her funny. Aerith was the intentionally annoying big sis type, and the dynamic between the three was great, fun, I loved all of them.

Then Rebirth, got me. 100%, I was invested in this funny Kdrama couple that Cloud and Tifa had become. To me there was no real interpretation I felt, like I read so many people saying, like this was fairly obvious. But now there are people everywhere telling me that my interpretation is wrong. Googling anything about Cloud brings a whole pile of Aerith with it. Even feeling secure that I knew the story well enough to not be confused, I feel like I've been gaslighted or something. Is this it? that even though the debate was settled 27 years ago before a lot of the people debating it were even born, that it's just kinda okay to have so much of the searchable information on this game be misleading and innacurate? It's weird to me. I'm not naive to social media and fandoms, I'm aware this is the case for many. I suppose I'm just venting after the last few months of immersing myself here, where I never thought I would be, lol. Thank you for, tolerating this massive brick of nonsense.

Here's to the next 3 or so years of SMH at people I guess!
 

Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
Also, thanks... I do plan to stay. I just took off because I wanted a much needed detox from the LTD.
Welcome back. I also took a pretty big break from this thread till now having caught up finally.
They fail to realize that Aerith herself would be offended by such a thing. Not to mention the rest of the cast would be very disappointed with Cloud. It’s almost as if it makes Cloud a bad person to do something like that.
This is the main problem pretty much always with their takes. There's never considerations made for what kinda impact these kinda decisions would end up doing for our characters. They only live in the exact moments but ignore what it would end up doing in the long run.
I’m particularly fond of that Twitter screenshot from back in 2021, claiming that when Cloud kisses Aerith, CT fans will deny it by saying he was just doing it out of jealousy.

The irony is too juicy. It’s almost poetic in a sense.
That take lives rent free in my head for how absolutely hilariously ironic it turned out.
People can argue over endgame, but you cannot imply that Tifa isn't also the heroine of the story. She's just as relevant as Aerith, for different reasons.
I'd argue she's more of a heroine than Aerith honestly. Not to say Aerith isn't ofc, but Tifas removal from the game would require a full on rewriting of the game with how much it would change things. I'll never understand why someone would ever consider her a "non important side character" or whatever they say about her.

I was actually thinking about Tifa's importance to Cloud and the plot. I mean, at Cloud's lowest point, she's the one who helped him recover and become the best version of himself. And then he went on to defeat Sephiroth and save the world.

So it's so bizarre that people look at that and go "wow, what a beautiful platonic bond uwu" (if they even acknowledge the "platonic" part). If Aerith was supposed to be the love interest, shouldn't she have been the one to do that? And she didn't? So? Does anything click or are these people just ignorant of storytelling, romance and Japanese media? Or is it just a vested interest in denial? Because obviously Cloud was in love with Aerith, why else would he have been devastated at someone dying right in front of his face, and obviously Aerith was the sole heroine and obviously Tifa was just an unimportant side character without which the story would still work just fine.
It's wild to me how Tifa gets brushed aside as a nobody for a supposed "true romance" between Cloud and Aerith when Tifa's the one who is there for him through many of his worst moments, supporting him by being by his side and helping him recover, while the "true love" is just dead and not really appearing much at all at that point, yet none of these things that Tifa does matter apparently anyway. Cloud would've been totally fine without her i'm sure.
By the way, the story actually does not work without Tifa, and you would have to rewrite quite a bit to fit into the present story.

You would have to change Cloud's motivation for leaving Nibelheim. You would have to change how he is fixed from his mako coma. Tifa is the one that introduces Cloud to Avalanche which allows him to meet Aerith in the first place. If Tifa doesn't go meet Don Corneo, Aerith and Cloud would split up at the playground. If Tifa didn't ask Aerith to save Marlene, she would not be taken to Shinra HQ where the cast is put on Sephiroth's trail. Much of the Nibelheim incident would need to be altered so that it's still relevant to Cloud's identity.

After Aerith dies, he would need another reason to break down at the Northern Cave as it's not Sephiroth's reveal of that breaks him but the perception that Tifa might have lost faith in him. Then he needs help to be pieced back together, also Tifa who took care of him as a vegetable.

That last part is especially important because he's a vegetable. This means she likely helped the nurse with responsibilities that are probably not an easy thing for someone to do. That's real love... being there for someone who might not ever even wake up or function normally.
Quite a bit feels like an understatement on how much they would have to rewrite without Tifa in the equation lol.
But now there are people everywhere telling me that my interpretation is wrong. Googling anything about Cloud brings a whole pile of Aerith with it. Even feeling secure that I knew the story well enough to not be confused, I feel like I've been gaslighted or something. Is this it? that even though the debate was settled 27 years ago before a lot of the people debating it were even born, that it's just kinda okay to have so much of the searchable information on this game be misleading and innacurate? It's weird to me. I'm not naive to social media and fandoms, I'm aware this is the case for many. I suppose I'm just venting after the last few months of immersing myself here, where I never thought I would be, lol. Thank you for, tolerating this massive brick of nonsense.
Welcome to the LTD for this one game that somehow keeps people debating the most obvious for this long even with a clear answer. It's best to just trust your own read on the story and forget what anyone tries to say in the world wide web. It's sad that it's come down to this for this particular game.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
@Xombii Welcome, LTD in this forum should be read as "Love Triangle Discussion". We barely debate here ever since hardcore Clerith such as Anastar and Blankbeat had left this forum. But yeah, we love discussing worst take from Twitter.

Anyway, thanks for your sharing. This make me wanna introduce my history in the shipping dynamic again.

In OG, I simply like CA dynamics more than CT because Aerith is straightforward girl. Well, maybe not CA but just my preferred girl. I mean, SE want us to be invested at Aerith for her death impact, right? And I'm one of them. But I aint dumb not to see where Cloud's heart belong to in LS scene. So I'm never in the camp "who Cloud love is open to interpretation and I believe this ship is canon." I'm more into "Cloud loves both girls and he's ended with Tifa whom he had always loved." CA is my preference because I'm sucker for tragic romance lol, and I'm pretty consistent with that trope. This is me also liking Inuyasha/Kikyo over Kagome and Kenshin/Tomoe over Kaoru.

By that, you can see how I easily jump on ZA wagon.

Actually, my first FF is FF8 when I was 12 (1999). I owned PS1 at the time when FF8 was hyped and barely invested to FF7 and FF9 because of the lego and chibi graphic compared to FF8. English is also not my native language (I'm from Indonesia), so I faced difficulties to understand the story at that age, I simply loved FF8 because of the graphics. So, my FF7 journey is started when Advent Children was massively advertised in 2004. There were two local magazines I bought for FF7AC headline, one is video game magazine, one is manga/anime magazine. I'm like "Wow, this guy is more handsome than Squall" lol. They retold FF7 story in the article and I remember one line since it's stuck in my 'sucker for tragedy' mind: "When Aerith met Cloud, she felt like she saw Zack who never come home, in him." WHO NEVER COME HOME. And the articles also spoiled me the full story so I knew who Zack is to Cloud.

Invested by it, I immediately replayed FF7 'cause my PS1 still worked. My feelings was sorry for Aerith already because I carried that sad line above. I was already on high school so I understand the story better (as I wrote in previous paragraph). I wasn't invested with ZA yet since Zack was barely there, and the fanworks of them was still rare. I never thought about ZA reunion in death at that time because 'well, dead is dead.' I even never thought of meteor destroyed by LS is Aerith's doing from the death lol.

So when I eventually watched FF7AC till ending as ZA walk out together, it made me bawl with happiness that she finally reunite with him. CT & ZA, end of story. And to be honest, I never played Crisis Core. I didn't buy PSP and I'm not into gaming anymore. I was introduced to CCFF7 because I watched FF7ACC in 2009 then I looked for full cutscene of CCFF7 in YouTube. I never read Dismantled and Maiden till I jump to fandom internet thanks to my hype of FF7ACC and CCFF7 at that time so it never corrupts my HC about ZA before CCFF7 exist; let alone corrupt how I've always viewed CA by my own in compilation since OG. I found CA Bible as it's full of Anti-CT, Anti-Tifa, Anti-ZA, and Anti-Zack; I felt it's different from my understanding of the story, that this is not right. Well, I know shipwar exist everywhere but I thought FF7 doesnt have it lol. I mean, one is dead and Cloud definitely ended up with Tifa.

I think that was also the time I know TLS for the first time before I finally joined in 2012.
 
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abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
But now there are people everywhere telling me that my interpretation is wrong. Googling anything about Cloud brings a whole pile of Aerith with it. Even feeling secure that I knew the story well enough to not be confused, I feel like I've been gaslighted or something. Is this it? that even though the debate was settled 27 years ago before a lot of the people debating it were even born, that it's just kinda okay to have so much of the searchable information on this game be misleading and innacurate? It's weird to me. I'm not naive to social media and fandoms, I'm aware this is the case for many. I suppose I'm just venting after the last few months of immersing myself here, where I never thought I would be, lol. Thank you for, tolerating this massive brick of nonsense.
I think, as of the original compilation, "both girls" was a plausible read of the story. This is why when you google the topic, a metric ton of bad, disingenuous takes show up. I don't think it'll ever go away, honestly. But at the very least, part 3 will make a lot of us feel vindicated.

Can't wait for the "The original is the only one that matters, Remake changed everything" cope from Cleriths.

And also, feel free to interact with us in future, everyone has a say here.
 
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