SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

RhinoKart

Pro Adventurer
I think it is also important to note that Cloud is wearing an actual SOLIDER uniform in that scene. Which means at least some recollection of that memory is false. We can't say at this point if that extends to his mother's words or not, but we know that it isn't an unaltered memory.

I'm feeling lazy so I'm just going to post what I had written up talking about this on another site:

The talk with his mom is just before the Neiblheim incident, meaning Cloud didn't know Aerith yet and was still pinning for Tifa. The fact that in this memory his mom suggests he should get an older girlfriend, but he turns away from her and says "I can take care of myself" is because at this point in time he is dreaming of being the mature person who looks after Tifa. He's rejecting his mom's idea because at that point in time he wants the exact opposite of what his mom is suggesting.

Then we have him wake up with the starry sky reflected in his eyes, which is of course a call back to Cloud's promise to save Tifa if she ever needs it.

It is a very subtle and nice scene for sure. Also notable is he is in a SOLIDER uniform, which of course wasn't true at all. So that also gives us a hint into Cloud's mental state. He's dreaming of rejecting the idea that someone needs to look after him while also projecting the fake memory that he is strong SOLIDER Cloud, and we get hints that this desire is about protecting Tifa when he wakes up with stars in his eyes and immediately wants to leave Aerith's house and get back to sector 7.



Of coures this is simply one possible interpretation of this scene, and I'm positive lots of people won't entirely share my view of it.
 
I share your view!

Of course this is a manipulated memory. Cloud‘s mom surely said something like this, but to what extent it is a one to one recollection is up to speculation. Also I do think they included the „older girlfriend“ precisely with the LTD in mind, so of course, it aims at the Tifa/Aerith „rivalry“ (which isn’t really one anymore in the Remake, thank god). Because age-wise, Aerith is clearly the older one, but personality-wise it’s clearly Tifa who is older and wiser (and much more fit to take care of Cloud the way his mother wished for).
 
No, I meant stars in the sky :)

Also it doesn't matter what we as individuals think, they created that segment of the game, with music, atmosphere, scenery, etc, with romance in mind for CxA.

Whether it be for CxA or CxT any individual can say they didn't find anything romantic in the game but at the end of the day that was not creator intent, they composed these music tracks, designed scenery and atmosphere, etc with intentions in mind, and told and spoke about their intentions, anything official for CxA or CxT stands.
 
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minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
I don't really think you can see much of the stars from Midgar though. If not because of the plates, then definitely because of the light pollution.

On Midnight Rendezvous, I really like that piece! It definitely provides a sweet and romantic atmosphere for Cloud and Aerith, I agree that's the intent of the devs. That said, while I like pulling quotes and interviews for the sake of argument, I think in the long run the "starry night sky" imagery will always be associated with Cloud/Tifa. Without reading that interview I don't think most players would connect "night sky" with Cloud and Aerith's relationship building because, well, there is no night sky there in the game, just the upper plate. Cloud and Tifa, aside from the Promise scene, also live in an apartment complex called "Stargazer Heights."
 

RhinoKart

Pro Adventurer
Aahhh, but CxA has Midnight Rendevous (where the composer made a statement about them looking at the night sky in a nice and very romantic atmosphere) now ;)
A good point, okay how about your ship can take the star imagery and mine can take the flowers? We'll just trade! ;)

Also Maiden I just wanted to say thank you for continuing to pleasantly engage in the LTD even though I know the majority here don't always agree with your interpretations. A lot of your comments have given me really interesting things to think about, even when I don't always reach the same conclusions I appreciate gaining the perspective.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
So although Cloud wasn’t completely himself during disc 1, parts of the 'real’ Cloud were present during his time with Aerith. It is also stated that the Jenova cells inside Cloud mimicked Tifa’s memories of him. Since Tifa’s memories were of the 'real’ Cloud, Jenova’s cells mimicked portions of the 'real Cloud’ and fashioned yet another personality for him.

Further – Aerith Gainsborough met Cloud Strife during a very troubling time in his life. His memories were jumbled and he was being controlled by Jenova’s cells. However, despite these challenges, Aerith was able to reach through to Cloud’s core and leave a long-lasting impression on him that he carries with him to this very day.

Well said! And I agree with you.

One needs to look no further than Cloud’s behavior and actions after regaining his memories to see how much Aerith meant to the real Cloud: he remembers her often, fights to avenge her death, carries grief and guilt over not being able to protect her, and eventually begins living in her Church. Zack’s memories and Jenova’s cells weren’t enough to stop Aerith from reaching Cloud’s heart.

Zack’s memories and Jenova’s cells weren’t enough to stop Cloud from truly caring about and developing a love for Aerith that has stayed with him forever.

All of this makes the case even more compelling for Cloud x Aerith because Cloud developed a love for Aerith despite Jenova’s cells and despite Zack’s memories — a love he has carried with him long after regaining his memories.
.....and that's where we disagree. This type of "all or nothing" mentality that you have is probably what @DutchDread was trying to make you reflect in one of their posts ( in this thread or in the other..idk anymore lol) with their "what if the opposite is true, would this still make sense?". So, what if Cloud didn't love Aerith romantically would he still remember her often? Would he still fight to avenger her death? would he still feel guilt over not being able to protect her? And the answer here is yes because that's just who Cloud is and this just shows how much impactful Aerith's presence and her sudden departure was for Cloud ( and the rest of the group as well.. but I know... I know.. they're not a part of the LTD, right?)

And yes, in any other story all that you described could be an indication of a romantic build up if the narrative supported it, but here in FFVII, it simply doesn't. The story goes on to show us that our main character was in love with the other "part" of the LTD all along, they go through a difficult time because of our main character's guilt towards his dear friends that he couldn't save but eventually, he's able to forgive himself and is happy again with the girl he loves and the kids he's raising with her. This is all fully supported by canon material and that's exactly the nuances you're missing here simply because you tend to ignore everything that doesn't corroborate with your own interpretations.

And tbh, I could give you "It's a possibility, indeed!" If what we're debating here was OG only, but after AC/C and pretty much the whole compilation, your interpretation is simply erroneous and shallow, imo.


But you know what, BB? This post of yours here is probably the first time in a while that I see you writing a cohesive argument that doesn't feel like you just copy/paste what you wrote before. I think I came to understand a lot more of your views regarding Clerith and I can even see where they could be coming from. Kudos to you for that.


Anyways, this is the Remake thread, right? I think all of this here should go in the other one? idek anymore..........
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
.....and that's where we disagree. This type of "all or nothing" mentality that you have is probably what @DutchDread was trying to make you reflect in one of their posts ( in this thread or in the other..idk anymore lol) with their "what if the opposite is true, would this still make sense?". So, what if Cloud didn't love Aerith romantically would he still remember her often? Would he still fight to avenger her death? would he still feel guilt over not being able to protect her? And the answer here is yes because that's just who Cloud is and this just shows how much impactful Aerith's presence and her sudden departure was for Cloud ( and the rest of the group as well.. but I know... I know.. they're not a part of the LTD, right?)
Sure -- Cloud would feel these things regardless of being in a love triangle with Aerith.

But the point is that his romantic feelings towards Aerith make everything you mentioned even more compelling, meaningful, and impactful.

Why would SE create all of that for a mere friend when they could create all of that for a romantic interest, and thus heighten the emotions associated with the main character?

The story goes on to show us that our main character was in love with the other "part" of the LTD all along, they go through a difficult time because of our main character's guilt towards his dear friends that he couldn't save but eventually, he's able to forgive himself and is happy again with the girl he loves and the kids he's raising with her. This is all fully supported by canon material and that's exactly the nuances you're missing here simply because you tend to ignore everything that doesn't corroborate with your own interpretations.
To me, the story goes on to show how incompatible Cloud and Tifa are. Nojima says the reasons for their incompatibility likely have NOTHING TO DO with geostigma and Sephiroth. Therefore, the "guilt" argument as being the only reason for Cloud and Tifa's incompatibility isn't accurate. Nojima specifies that the reason likely has to do with something other than Sephiroth or geostigma.

And the "kids" are Marlene (Barret's daughter) and Denzel (a boy Cloud believes was brought to him by Aerith).

Cloud may be happy with Tifa. But he'd be happier with Aerith, and is always shown seeking Aerith (which makes Tifa jealous). Even Tifa knows she's 2nd place to Aerith, and she always will be. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest.
 

loozzer

Rookie Adventurer
Why would SE create all of that for a mere friend when they could create all of that for a romantic interest, and thus heighten the emotions associated with the main character?
probably because romantic relationships are not always the most interesting relationships? romance does not mean that the emotions are heightened. there are literally so many stories out there that focus on friendship with the romance playing second fiddle. some of the most highly acclaimed movies and tv shows manage to create complex relationships without dealing with romance at all.

and i wouldn't say that tifa "knows" she's second. it's more that tifa has insecurities about being second. but she's not. tifa's jealousy says nothing about cloud's feelings. i don't understand why this is always an argument for cloud/aerith. even people in the most committed of relationships get jealous.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
She also seems to have a general idea about his identity issues too (same as in the OG) and says that any romantic feelings that he thinks he feels for her aren't true even if he thinks he feels them. Something to think about.

It does give ammo to the theory that it's the Zack part of Cloud's identity is heavily fueling those feelings.
Aerith's lines are in reference to a "sad" moment from the OG. That "sad" moment is most obviously Aerith's death.

Aerith is telling Cloud not to fall in love with her because she not only knows that she dies, but she also knows that Cloud falls in love with her. Aerith is trying to protect Cloud.

probably because romantic relationships are not always the most interesting relationships? romance does not mean that the emotions are heightened. there are literally so many stories out there that focus on friendship with the romance playing second fiddle. some of the most highly acclaimed movies and tv shows manage to create complex relationships without dealing with romance at all.
Sure -- romantic relationships aren't always the most interesting relationships. But SE decided to make Cloud and Aertih develop a romance (they are in a love triangle together). Therefore, SE must think that the romantic element of Cloud and Aerith's relationship is important for some reason, right?

To me, it is obvious that by making Aerith a romantic possibility for Cloud, they are heightening the impact of her death.

and i wouldn't say that tifa "knows" she's second. it's more that tifa has insecurities about being second. but she's not. tifa's jealousy says nothing about cloud's feelings. i don't understand why this is always an argument for cloud/aerith. even people in the most committed of relationships get jealous.
But it states Tifa is jealous because Aerith is her "love rival." Therefore, there is validity to Tifa's jealousy due to Aerith being her officially established "love rival." Hell -- Cloud, Aerith and Tifa are all in a love triangle together. Of course their is validity to Tifa's jealousy.
 
To me, the story goes on to show how incompatible Cloud and Tifa are. Nojima says the reasons for their incompatibility likely have NOTHING TO DO with geostigma and Sephiroth. Therefore, the "guilt" argument as being the only reason for Cloud and Tifa's incompatibility isn't accurate. Nojima specifies that the reason likely has to do with something other than Sephiroth or geostigma.

And the "kids" are Marlene (Barret's daughter) and Denzel (a boy Cloud believes was brought to him by Aerith).

Cloud may be happy with Tifa. But he'd be happier with Aerith, and is always shown seeking Aerith (which makes Tifa jealous). Even Tifa knows she's 2nd place to Aerith, and she always will be. Aerith is the original heroine and the original love interest.
You're putting words in Nojima's mouth. He doesn't say that Cloud and Tifa are incompatible. He says they have problems they had still would've surfaced even without Sephiroth showing up again and Geostigma. He's talking specifically about their problems in Case for Tifa and those problems are because Tifa & the kids make Cloud too happy and he feel he doesn't deserve it especially since he sees himself as incapable of protecting them.


The happier he is now. The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past. -Cloud profile 10th AU.


The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud… -Cloud profile 10th AU.

Cloud tried to move on once…but he was hurt by the losses he experienced in the battles he fought in the game story. even after all of that he still found a peaceful life. and that made him scared. he lost it all once already and he could lose it all again. even though he was there he couldn’t do anything to prevent it the last time. so the happier he is, the more lonely he becomes. - nomura : distance.


“Nojima: Cloud never had a candid personality to begin with, and although he started living with Tifa and even started working, he obtained a peaceful living he’s never experienced before, and this conversely made him anxious. And in the midst of this he contracts Geostigma himself, and rather than being able to protect the people dear to him, he instead was forced to face his own death, and so ran away.”- Nojima, AC prologue.



Saying Cloud might have been happier with Aerith doesn't have any evidence. Maybe, maybe not. Cloud could be happier with Jessie too for all we know or Barret or Zack. These are things that cannot be measured.

That said, Cloud moves on with his life and he's still with Tifa 2 years after Advent Children.

Nojima: “Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be back home where they belonged."


-------

The place where he awakens—-
That is Cloud’s Promised Land


As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn’t belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Wtf did I just read? Did someone just suggest that Tifa's beneath Aerith? This is an actual argument people make in the LTD? Was about to throw hands, but since I'm a decent human being, I'll restrain myself.

Can you guys explain to me where Tifa even thinks this way about herself? That she's playing second fiddle to the Goddess Almighty Aerith? I don't see it anywhere in the Remake.

I love Aerith, but I'm really disappointed right now reading a comment like this from fellow fans. My heart has sunk.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
probably because romantic relationships are not always the most interesting relationships? romance does not mean that the emotions are heightened. there are literally so many stories out there that focus on friendship with the romance playing second fiddle. some of the most highly acclaimed movies and tv shows manage to create complex relationships without dealing with romance at all.

and i wouldn't say that tifa "knows" she's second. it's more that tifa has insecurities about being second. but she's not. tifa's jealousy says nothing about cloud's feelings. i don't understand why this is always an argument for cloud/aerith. even people in the most committed of relationships get jealous.
"Lord of the Rings" hinges most of its character relationships in the Fellowship, with Aragorn's romantic relationship to Arwen just hanging out in the backdrop (both in the book and the movies). And yet it is one of the best and most emotionally gripping stories ever told!

Sometimes, people tend to forget that there are more facets of love, all of which are worthy of exploration.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
Final Heaven -- I have addressed your points numerous times.

The Promised Land quote states the PLACE where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. That place is Aerith's Church.

You run a Cloti blog and have a long history of engaging in unethical tactics online.

Spare me your BS.
 
Final Heaven -- I have addressed your points numerous times.

The Promised Land quote states the PLACE where Cloud awakens is his Promised Land. That place is Aerith's Church.

You run a Cloti blog and have a long history of engaging in unethical tactics online.

Spare me your BS.
Uh...I....don't run a Cloti blog. You have me confused with someone else. This is the only place I've even used this username.

Final Heaven is just a common username since it is Tifa's limit break.

That movie's ending is about Cloud moving on and about how he's not alone anymore because he has his friends and family.

The quote that I mentioned emphasizes his family and friends:


"When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma— his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realizes where he is meant to live. "

So you think Cloud realizes he's meant to live in Aerith's Church after all at the end of AC? That's his big epiphany? lmao
 

minami758

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Miiwoo
Wtf did I just read? Did someone just suggest that Tifa's beneath Aerith? This is an actual argument people make in the LTD? Was about to throw hands, but since I'm a decent human being, I'll restrain myself.

Can you guys explain to me where Tifa even thinks this way about herself? That she's playing second fiddle to the Goddess Almighty Aerith? I don't see it anywhere in the Remake.

I love Aerith, but I'm really disappointed right now reading a comment like this from fellow fans. My heart has sunk.
You'll get used to this kind of debate, unfortunately...
 
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kate-kane

Lv. 1 Adventurer
Both of you are such new accounts.

And the FinalHeaven Tumblr was recently used as a source by one of the new members here at TLS.

Fishy-fishy!!
I run the blog on Tumblr. Final_Heaven on TLS is not the one on Tumblr. That is run by me (and a few other friends).

And this?

You run a Cloti blog and have a long history of engaging in unethical tactics online.
This is from OUR-Final-Heaven on Tumblr. She (and her own friends) were the ones that wrongfully doxxed you and your friends. Can we please make sure we make this distinction moving forward? We don't associate with them.

Thank you.

Good day.
 
Wtf did I just read? Did someone just suggest that Tifa's beneath Aerith? This is an actual argument people make in the LTD? Was about to throw hands, but since I'm a decent human being, I'll restrain myself.

Can you guys explain to me where Tifa even thinks this way about herself? That she's playing second fiddle to the Goddess Almighty Aerith? I don't see it anywhere in the Remake.

I love Aerith, but I'm really disappointed right now reading a comment like this from fellow fans. My heart has sunk.
That's what I meant with my last post... it's impossible to discuss on such a level.

Where is the respect for one another? These are friggin fictional characters we're talking about! @BlankBeat could you at least try to be more friendly and show some tolerance? Why do you have to be so dismissive towards other's opinions? That's not a good discussion style.
 

loozzer

Rookie Adventurer
But it states Tifa is jealous because Aerith is her "love rival." Therefore, there is validity to Tifa's jealousy due to Aerith being her officially established "love rival." Hell -- Cloud, Aerith and Tifa are all in a love triangle together. Of course their is validity to Tifa's jealousy.
i was talking about how you originally said that tifa "knows she's second" and using her jealousy as proof. that's different from her being jealous because cloud might have romantic feelings for aerith. i agree that tifa's jealousy gives validity to fact that there is a love triangle. her jealousy doesn't say anything about who the winner of the love triangle is.

you are conflating two issues here. 1. tifa feeling jealous over cloud/aerith and 2. cloud's true feelings on who he wants to be with. proof of #1 has no impact on #2 since tifa is not cloud and would not know how he feels (as he refuses to talk about his feelings most of the time).

for the cloud/aerith side: you could argue that tifa's jealousy reveals cloud's true feelings, that he loves aerith more. you could argue that tifa being jealous is the story's way of telling us that cloud wants aerith more. this does happen in storytelling sometimes - using one character's feelings to reveal how another character feels. this argument doesn't really work in the remake since the game did a really good job of showing that tifa is important to cloud. and any jealousy tifa might feel is clearly just her being insecure. but honestly, even as someone who likes cloud/tifa, this argument does makes some sense to me in the compilation. cloud's actions show that he's clearly not over aerith's death. maybe tifa really is onto something in the compilation, maybe she knows what cloud won't admit out loud - that he loves aerith and still wants to be with her. however, even if this was true, the end of AC shows that cloud is at peace with aerith's death. even if cloud longed to be with aerith, the ending of the movie shows that he's let go of any desperate desire to be with her in life. by letting go of aerith he's able to move on with tifa, their relationship will no longer held back by cloud's lingering feelings for aerith. even if you don't like tifa with cloud, the guy has clearly moved on and is available for a romantic relationship with someone else more to your liking lol.
 

BlankBeat

Pro Adventurer
^^ Yet another new Cloti account!!

Something's up.

And I don't have time to figure it out.

The FinalHeaven Cloti blog was recently used as a source by a new Cloti member here at TLS.

The Final Heaven account on TLS is supposedly not the same person as the Final Heaven Tumblr account.

Yet there are numerous new Cloti accounts that know of the FinalHeaven Tumblr account.

And there is a new member by the name of Final Heaven.

I'm being told I'm "paranoid."

Yet I was wondering why it felt like I was being bombarded by all these new members.

But I guess that's just because of the Remake and I'm being paranoid.

"Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining." ~Judge Judy

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
 
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