SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
I feel like pointing out that a number of tropes on TV Tropes exist because of Final Fantasy VII – which is, after all, one of the most influential video games of the last 25 years. It feels a bit like complaining that Star Wars is unoriginal for having Vader be Luke’s father.* Well, you see, in 1980…

It was quite uncommon, in 1997, for a childhood acquaintance romance to occur – and to some extent it still is; there’s a reason the page is called a childhood friend romance. This may now be counted as a variant of that trope, but I think an argument could be made (although I’m not really interested enough to chase down all the details right now) that Final Fantasy VII is a large part of the reason that variant even exists. In 1997, I don’t think it was all that common.

*this is “it was his sled” territory; not going to bother marking
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
@Master Bates
Valid as those points are, let's leave Jessie out of discussions in this sub-forum. This (already long questionable) section exists for discussing the Axis of Evil a particular geometric shape that's not a square.

And yet not this particular trope. The childhood acquaintances were still made to be possible love interests, just as the trope states, instead of that point not being included at all or another alternative given who would've survived for the whole game.

Okay? And they could have had the villain pronounce his love for the protagonist with them ending up together as well, but no reasonable person is wailing about that.

This area is for discussion of the Calamity from the Fans. Stick to it or move along.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
I'm fairly certain the Childhood Friend trope isn't as common as you think, Jairus. There was even a time in the anime community when it was very rare for the childhood friend to gain the main protagonist's affection in the end, so much so that the anime community had been bemoaning the lack of said trope. There was even a reddit post discussion about it, IIRC. But it's been years so I don't remember much.

EDIT: Tres, I was being facetious. I don't actually consider Jessie an option. :mon:

Just wanted to address some of the points Jairus made there.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
pc9q7ximogb01.png

yeah I made the same joke twice
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Well, at least Aerith is a walking corpse. Jessie, meanwhile, is just a corpse. :mon:

Let's not get too delusional here. Why would Jessie need to have a scene with Cloud in Chapter 14? She already had time with him at the earlier parts of the game, albeit with Biggs and Wedge. What makes her so special to warrant a scene with similar gravitas as Aerith, Tifa and Barret, who---I dunno--- are part of the main, MAIN OG cast? The ones who actually get to be in your party? The ones (plus Yuffie) you actually get to have a gondola date? It wouldn't make sense meta-wise.

Jessie is already fortunate for all the screentime she gets this remake, when she was just extra in the OG. Even if she could possibly be still alive and make a comback in the latter parts, she is just not in the same level of importance as Aerith, Tifa and Barret are, either to Cloud or to the story.

I don't like to sound harsh, but let's get real. Jessie is not a real option.

Not true. It's very possible for Cloud to have had some attraction to her. You have to pay attention to his body language, eye contact, and what he doesn't say as much as what he does say. You also can't take all his words at face value because, as Nojima said, his harshness is pretty much a front. Jessie keeps flirting because she knows he doesn't really mean those things that he says. And in Japanese, he's much more tender to her as well. For example:

English
Jessie: My hero... so gentle
Cloud: Just try to hold on.

Japanese
Jessie: You saved me again.
Cloud: I'll save you as many times as you need.

English
Cloud: Are you seriously that desperate?

Japanese
Cloud: Is this how it's gonna be?

If you watch his arms and hands when she hugs him before inviting him over, you'll see that he starts reaching up to hug her back but catches himself before doing it and puts his facade back on. Also, at no time does he tell her to stop snuggling up to him on the bike. Which means that he didn't mind her doing it, he just didn't know how to respond to it. And, in one of the bike end scenes, he actually tells her to hold on tight, and when she clings to him, he never says anything about meaning the bike instead of him. Also, consider this bit of banter from the minigame:

Jessie: You gonna take my breath away with your amazing skills?
Cloud: Don't blame me if ya get sick.

Cloud's response is not a denial. He never said no to her question. He was trying to impress her. And he even bantered with her, basically asking if she was having fun. His seemingly harsh replies didn't daze her because she knew he didn't mean them - you can tell because she laughs about them, almost like he was joking in his own odd, Cloudesque sort of way. And when she kissed him, he was surprised and flustered and caught off guard, not uncomfortable. He just didn't know how to respond, so he didn't. He wasn't being mean to her, he was just overcome. Again, he never told her to get off him, which means he didn't mind her being there.

Whenever he and Jessie have scenes together, watch his eye contact. He follows her almost all the time, so much so that in Chapter 2 she has to move the materia she's holding to even get him to notice it because his gaze is so fixed on her. During their conversation there, he's again trying to impress her with his cool veneer and SOLDIER talk, as you can tell from the small smile he gives her during that time. She isn't fazed because she sees right through it. And it's her - not Tifa and not Aerith - that gets him to let down his hard edges first. And if she could do that in just one night, she could've done a lot more if they'd had more time together.

If you watch when he carries her into the 7th Heaven, you'll notice he gives her a little smile just before that. Watch how his mouth goes up slightly when he goes to pick her up. And he didn't have to do that at all. We know Barret could've done it because he carried Wedge later. But Cloud chose to do it, and not grudgingly, either, but warmly. He knew by then that she liked him and knowingly did something for her that would feed that feeling. And not only that, he immediately agreed to raise havoc for her on the mission when she asked and even smiled at her again. He also encouraged her if you talked to her in the 7th Heaven after that.

Also, the story seems to treat the "No promises" option to her invitation as canon, since he mentions their planned date during their last conversation, and before she does. This means that at some point, he did think about it as he'd said he would and had decided to go ahead and have that dinner date with her. And when she admits her feelings for him during their last conversation - "I just... really wanted to believe... that we..." - he does not shut her down. He affirms her feelings by acknowledging them and reminding her of the date they had planned to have together. It can be seen as an indirect way of telling her he liked her, too. One that she picked right up on, as her happy smile shows.

You might be interested to know that Clessie videos on Youtube are getting just as many - and in some cases even more - views than Cloti and Clerith videos. In fact, one of the videos showing how to get Jessie to kiss Cloud has literally over a million views. That's more than any single Cloti or Clerith video. It's even more than the highest-viewed Cloti video (which is at almost 900k views and was posted at about the same time as the Clessie kiss video). So obviously people are seeing something in the pairing.

I don't know how you can say Jessie was fortunate when she was basically tossed aside after Chapter 4, though. There could've been scenes showing her and the rest of the gang while Cloud was stuck with Aerith so we'd be able to see them react to hearing what happened to him and see how they found out about Corneo and the pillar. There could even have been a playable segment or two using Barret and/or Tifa with them so they wouldn't just disappear for half the game.

If she does come back for Part 2, there's nothing stopping SE from developing her into a viable third option, especially given her history at the Gold Saucer and the date event itself - which if she comes back, she should surely get a Gold Saucer date of her own with Cloud because she was in the very play that's part of that sequence. It would give us a further glimpse into her backstory and character as well as give her and Cloud a chance to actually share that date they never got to have in Part 1.

And as for the trope, it's not 1997 anymore. SE doesn't have to stick to things as they were then.
 

Master Bates

Do you enjoy your life?
AKA
Mr. Koiwai
Your post has a lot of words of mostly narration, but they don't really properly address the points I raised at all. I feel like you left me in the middle of a conversation you were having with yourself. They're full of logical leaps that do not necessarily follow, with lots of irrelevant stuff sprinkled therein.

I'd comment more, but I'll respect Tres and refrain from discussing that further.

And it may not be 1997 anymore, but there's a reason this game is called a Remake and not a Reboot.

P.S. Jessie is still not an option. :mon:
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
FF7 wasn't particularly unique in subverting the childhood friend trope into something. I would make the case that the manga series Berserk, Devilman, and Battle Angel Alita had some form of stylistic influence on FF7. All three of those manga had some sort of childhood romance, but told in a way where it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows.

Anyways, I dunno why the term "trope" is being thrown around disparagingly. Tropes are part of structured stories. I am hard-pressed to think of any obvious tropes that apply to a potential Cloud/Jessie romance, and I think that's probably because the writers didn't care enough to put that much thought/structure into the idea. Methinks this thread isn't completely bereft of a bitter-shipper attitude :monster:
 

Jairus

Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Your post has a lot of words of mostly narration, but they don't really properly address the points I raised at all. I feel like you left me in the middle of a conversation you were having with yourself. They're full of logical leaps that do not necessarily follow, with lots of irrelevant stuff sprinkled therein.

I'd comment more, but I'll respect Tres and refrain from discussing that further.

And it may not be 1997 anymore, but there's a reason this game is called a Remake and not a Reboot.

P.S. Jessie is still not an option. :mon:

None of you what you said counters what I said. You never explained any of your assertions or backed them or your claims about my arguments up. I was addressing your argument that she wasn't an option when she was clearly made out to be something that could have been. And stop baiting me by saying she's not an option the way you are, because that's obviously what you're doing and it's not respectful to Tres. Doing it again will only prove me right. And you don't know that she won't be made into one in Part 2 anyway. No one does.

And looney, a potential romance/pairing doesn't require a trope in order to exist.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
For whatever it’s worth, I haven’t been using the word “trope” disparagingly. Stories probably wouldn’t even exist without tropes; they’re some of the basic building blocks of storytelling. But I can’t speak for anyone else.

As for the rest of it… yeah, not wading into this with a ten-foot pole, especially since very little of it connects, even indirectly, to the three-pointed geometric shape which lends this section its title. :monster:
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
Yeah, the game has definitely built up Tifa as being Cloud's pick (at least in my opinion) It seemed like her theme was used as a leitmotif throughout a lot of the game as well (even more so than Aerith's theme) I'd go after her over Aerith anyway.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
I absolutely love how all 3 Chapter 14 Resolution scenes flow into each other story-wise, on another note. Square knows what they're doin'.

Would you mind elaborate on that a little more (if you want ofc)? I would be very much interested in reading it.

Cody also follows Clerith accounts last time I checked. Multishipping is possible. The accounts I check don't seem to have a problem with him and of course Brianna White is very popular.

Yeah, that's very much possible really. I see no problem with that.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
Would you mind elaborate on that a little more (if you want ofc)? I would be very much interested in reading it.
I think they are saying how even if all 3 chapter 14 scenes can't be seen in the same playthrough of Chapter 14, narratively all three of them occurring doesn't contradict each other like the different dates did in the OG. That's is believable that Cloud could have been woken up by both Barret and Tifa at different points during the night, and also had a dream communication with Aerith later while asleep.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
I think they are saying how even if all 3 chapter 14 scenes can't be seen in the same playthrough of Chapter 14, narratively all three of them occurring doesn't contradict each other like the different dates did in the OG. That's is believable that Cloud could have been woken up by both Barret and Tifa at different points during the night, and also had a dream communication with Aerith later while asleep.


Ahh I got it now! Thanks!! Well...poor Cloud then, that would be one hell of a busy night tbh


Edit: I just love the idea that the most emotionally unstable in the party is the one going around comforting people here and there :joy:
 
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SailorStarDust

Kept you waiting, huh?
AKA
SSD
Ahh I got it now! Thanks!! Well....poor Cloud then, that would be one hell of a busy night tbh

To clarify, yep, that's exactly what I meant:) So I'm picturing whatever Gold Saucer date event(s) happen in Part 2 would be more of the same where the character actions won't contradict one another which makes the most sense story-wise, anyway. (Also, I'm a girl~ :tifaball)
 

billy22

Pro Adventurer
I think they are saying how even if all 3 chapter 14 scenes can't be seen in the same playthrough of Chapter 14, narratively all three of them occurring doesn't contradict each other like the different dates did in the OG. That's is believable that Cloud could have been woken up by both Barret and Tifa at different points during the night, and also had a dream communication with Aerith later while asleep.

To clarify, yep, that's exactly what I meant:) So I'm picturing whatever Gold Saucer date event(s) happen in Part 2 would be more of the same where the character actions won't contradict one another which makes the most sense story-wise, anyway. (Also, I'm a girl~ :tifaball)

I have seen it argued that the dates may not contradict each other either. It is possible to be the ____ visitor for the same event in the same day. I also believe Barret's date hints at it (Cloud complains along the lines of 'Again?!'). Granted, I never completely bought those as good reasons.

It probably doesn't matter, but what order to you think the optional scenes make the most sense, if they all took place in the same night? Barret or Tifa first, with Aerith last?
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
I have seen it argued that the dates may not contradict each other either. It is possible to be the ____ visitor for the same event in the same day. I also believe Barret's date hints at it (Cloud complains along the lines of 'Again?!'). Granted, I never completely bought those as good reasons.

It probably doesn't matter, but what order to you think the optional scenes make the most sense, if they all took place in the same night? Barret or Tifa first, with Aerith last?
Oh sure, if one wanted to make the effort, they could argue that the OG dates take place all on the same night, I just think that argument stretches the suspension of disbelief more (since it would mean Cloud participating in the same play at least three/four times the same night), than the notion that all three Chapter 14 conversations take place during the same night.

As for my personal headcanon of the order of the chapter 14 scenes, yeah I figure Barret and Tifa would be first (I think Barret being first then Tifa second flows better) and Aerith's would be last while Cloud is actually physically sleeping.
 

SailorStarDust

Kept you waiting, huh?
AKA
SSD
It probably doesn't matter, but what order to you think the optional scenes make the most sense, if they all took place in the same night? Barret or Tifa first, with Aerith last?

I tend to view Aerith date as the "canon" one but if somebody wants to have fun with "Cloud keeps getting dragged out of his hotel room" at Gold Saucer, I'd see Aerith happening first with Barret last (Yuffie and Tifa somewhere in the middle I guess?) to allow Barret freaking out when hearing Marlene over Reeve's radio.

Edit: Aerith last as Cloud's finally sleeping in Remake Chapter 14 makes sense, too, I think.
 

billy22

Pro Adventurer
Oh sure, if one wanted to make the effort, they could argue that the OG dates take place all on the same night, I just think that argument stretches the suspension of disbelief more (since it would mean Cloud participating in the same play at least three/four times the same night), than the notion that all three Chapter 14 conversations take place during the same night.

As for my personal headcanon of the order of the chapter 14 scenes, yeah I figure Barret and Tifa would be first (I think Barret being first then Tifa second flows better) and Aerith's would be last while Cloud is actually physically sleeping.
I was leaning towards Tifa, then Barret, then Aerith myself. With the Tifa scene he passes by a sleeping Barret and notices Tifa's door is open, so he goes to look for her. I like to imagine that after Tifa's scene, upon coming back he inadvertently woke Barret up. In the Tifa scene it is also mentioned that Tifa woke Cloud up.

But it could easily be the opposite. Barret falls asleep after their scene, Cloud sees that he didn't wake up and realizes Tifa was the one making noise. Or perhaps Cloud was actually asleep for a while first, and thus had the dream with Aerith first.

I tend to view Aerith date as the "canon" one but if somebody wants to have fun with "Cloud keeps getting dragged out of his hotel room" at Gold Saucer, I'd see Aerith happening first with Barret last (Yuffie and Tifa somewhere in the middle I guess?) to allow Barret freaking out when hearing Marlene over Reeve's radio.
I'm not talking about the date, but the optional scene in the Remake.
 
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