SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Graymouse]

The creators are deliberately trying to draw this out, and it's annoying. They need to accept that you can't please everyone. Instead of fighting over Team-Tifa versus Team-Aerith, and being told that the devs are going to make things more "equal" in response, both sides should be pushing for an end to the triangle, once and for all and in a more conclusive manner.

Forgive me for going a bit OT, but it does have some relevance. I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Devs are Japanese. Final Fantasy 7 is a JRPG. The Japanese way of trying to make everyone happy is rooted deep into their culture. It is especially true in the later half of the 20st Century and continues to this day. I had the honor of living in Japan for over 22 years and have seen first hand how their culture is. Modern Japan does not like to make anyone feel uncomfortable and will go out of its way to make sure everyone is happy. This can be seen in their J-Drama, Anime' or any other entertainment medium that comes out of Japan.

To bring it back around, I believe that the Devs have already answered LTD question, As of now, and at the end of AC Tifa and Cloud are paired up. That doesn't mean that Cloud never loved Aerith at one time. Far from it. It just means that is how the dynamics ended up. I am sorry if it makes others unhappy but for me it seems really bad writing for a character to be hung up forever on someone who has passed on. It is not healthy. Cloud needs to move on. AC is the story of how Cloud moved on.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Forgive me for going a bit OT, but it does have some relevance. I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that the Devs are Japanese. Final Fantasy 7 is a JRPG. The Japanese way of trying to make everyone happy is rooted deep into their culture. It is especially true in the later half of the 20st Century and continues to this day. I had the honor of living in Japan for over 22 years and have seen first hand how their culture is. Modern Japan does not like to make anyone feel uncomfortable and will go out of its way to make sure everyone is happy. This can be seen in their J-Drama, Anime' or any other entertainment medium that comes out of Japan.

To bring it back around, I believe that the Devs have already answered LTD question, As of now, and at the end of AC Tifa and Cloud are paired up. That doesn't mean that Cloud never loved Aerith at one time. Far from it. It just means that is how the dynamics ended up. I am sorry if it makes others unhappy but for me it seems really bad writing for a character to be hung up forever on someone who has passed on. It is not healthy. Cloud needs to move on. AC is the story of how Cloud moved on.

And in my opinion, that makes for a bad story. Like I said before, Cloud comes off horribly when the writers try to cater to two different crowds. This is made even worse when you see so little jealousy expressed between the two female characters. Now they just come off either unrealistic, or uninterested in Cloud. This is why people are saying that Aerith in the Remake "ships Cloti."

Just to explain my perspective, I've noticed a common feeling among people who ship Cloud with anyone, whether it be Tifa or Aerith, is pity. I personally don't pity Cloud at all. I pity these women. Maybe it's because I'm a man, but my natural instinct is to expect more of Cloud, and to be more protective of women, fictional or otherwise. For this reason, I want this triangle to end, and I want Cloud to devote his attention to just one or none.

You mention AC, but he came off horribly in AC. It's very difficult to view Cloud as anything more than a manchild. And while he does start off that way due to spending four years in a mako tank, AC takes places years after those events. Cloud is a very difficult character to admire and look up to, even well into his character growth.

 

[Yumelinh]

I don't know what it is about Cloud and Tifa. Maybe I'm a pervert who craves physical intimacy in relationships. Or, wait, isn't it that normal? For me I just like that they touch either A LOT. The scenes they have together, including hidden ones, has a lot of physical touching and closeness that makes it romantic. I can't just say they're friends, but I can't call them bf/gf either.

This tidbit made me realized that the devs may have taken a very important Cloti quote from OG and made it their whole motif in the Remake. Humm! NICE!

(Also, sorry if I'm talking a little too much, but none of my friends are gamers, and my brothers don't really like to discuss games or anything with me in general, so my lonely self only has you guys for now. )

Don't apologize for that! In all, it will be really great to have an opinion from someone who first played the Remake around here

 

[Odysseus]

I wonder if Tifa will ever get a bridal carry scene like Aerith and Jessie got. Maybe she's too tough for that, but it would be cute.

 

[Graymouse]

And in my opinion, that makes for a bad story. Like I said before, Cloud comes off horribly when the writers try to cater to two different crowds. This is made even worse when you see so little jealousy expressed between the two female characters. Now they just come off either unrealistic, or uninterested in Cloud. This is why people are saying that Aerith in the Remake "ships Cloti."

Just to explain my perspective, I've noticed a common feeling among people who ship Cloud with anyone, whether it be Tifa or Aerith, is pity. I personally don't pity Cloud at all. I pity these women. Maybe it's because I'm a man, but my natural instinct is to expect more of Cloud, and to be more protective of women, fictional or otherwise. For this reason, I want this triangle to end, and I want Cloud to devote his attention to just one or none.

You mention AC, but he came off horribly in AC. It's very difficult to view Cloud as anything more than a manchild. And while he does start off that way due to spending four years in a mako tank, AC takes places years after those events. Cloud is a very difficult character to admire and look up to, even well into his character growth.

Ah, I don't really pity Cloud or admire him at all to be honest with you. However, like you mentioned you would be hard pressed not to admit that Cloud did grow as a character throughout the story. I am not like most shippers because I don't think that Cloud should end up with either women out of pity. That is just lame story-telling of the nightingale syndrome that has been told countless times. I did not see that with Cloud.

I have always been partial to the "childhood friend" troupe type of storytelling. It is just a feel good story in my opinion. I feel that the time that Tifa has spent with Cloud as childhood friends should be taken into account. It just seems like there is more of a potential relatable relationship there between Tifa and Cloud then between Aerith. Due to the amount of time that was spent growing up together.

I always felt Aerith was forced into the mix and to be honest it is not fair to Aerith at all. How can Aerith "compete" with Tifa in any meaningful way with the little amount of time that Cloud spent with Aerith. It just doesn't seem realistic. The way Aerith is presented in the Remake, I feel the Devs did her justice. They made Aerith into a more rounded out character that is relatable. Not some women that is lusting after a man. I felt that Aerith was more duty driven in the Remake.

However, the way the Devs told the story thus far and the Dev interviews thereafter, you can easily come to the conclusion that they want to give both women equal screen time with Cloud. We know that things will be different in the later half of the game ,if it continues the OG storyline, but up until that point I believe the Devs want to cut things down the middle.

I know that you want to have it Tifa or Aerith and just be cut and dry about it but, don't you think that would be a little boring? Even if it is more genuine to the story that is being told? Life isn't always white or black. There is a lot of gray areas in between. It is within those gray areas where a great story can be told.

Edited to correct sentence structure on a few items.

 

[Yumelinh]

There are a few things I'd like to input in this conversation, but I'm honestly too tired rn (like physically, not of you guys ).

Anyways, I'd like to say one thing at least: the "equal time" the devs mentioned isn't related only to the romantic subplot of the Remake. The girls aren't just there to be romanced by Cloud in the end. They both heroines of this story and both need this screen time to flesh out their characters as well as their bond with the main character (because yes, this bond exists regardless of their romantic feelings for Cloud).

 

[Maidenofwar]

People say "Tifa ships Clerith" too. Now I'm not sure that was creator intent either way, but both girls are indeed supportive of each other.

 

[MasterMoogle]

Ah, I don't really pity Cloud or admire him at all to be honest with you. However, like you mentioned you would be hard pressed not to admit that Cloud did grow as a character throughout the story. I am not like most shippers because I don't think that Cloud should end up with either women out of pity. That is just lame story-telling of the nightingale syndrome that has been told countless times. I did not see that with Cloud.

I have always been partial to the "childhood friend" troupe type of storytelling. It is just a feel good story in my opinion. I feel that the time that Tifa has spent with Cloud as childhood friends should be taken into account. It just seems like there is more of a potential relatable relationship there between Tifa and Cloud then between Aerith. Due to the amount of time that was spent growing up together.

I always felt Aerith was forced into the mix and to be honest it is not fair to Aerith at all. How can Aerith "compete" with Tifa in any meaningful way with the little amount of time that Cloud spent with Aerith. It just doesn't seem realistic. The way Aerith is presented in the Remake, I feel the Devs did her justice. They made Aerith into a more rounded out character that is relatable. Not some women that is lusting after a man. I felt that Aerith was more duty driven in the Remake.

However, the way the Devs told the story thus far and the Dev interviews thereafter, you can easily come to the conclusion that they want to give both women equal screen time with Cloud. We know that things will be different in the later half of the game ,if it continues the OG storyline, but up until that point I believe the Devs want to cut things down the middle.

I know that you want to have it Tifa or Aerith and just be cut and dry about it but, don't you think that would be a little boring? Even if it is more genuine to the story that is being told? Life isn't always white or black. There is a lot of gray areas in between. It is within those gray areas where a great story can be told.

Edited to correct sentence structure on a few items.

I am partial to Tifa as well, for the same reasons you are. I like the "childhood friends" trope, but if AC is anything to go by, Cloud hasn't grown up and he doesn't treat her right.

To answer your question, no I don't find triangles more interesting than normal one-on-one relationships. I find the relationship between Zidane and Garnet much more interesting than this. I want to respect the characters I'm playing, not roll my eyes at them for their silly decisions.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It’s so serious business in here... I don’t know billy22 but how I read his post was more of a joke when using that example to suggest Aerith is against polygamy. The larger point is that the burden of proof lies with those who suggest Aerith would participate in polygamy. You can’t prove a negative - that’s a fallacy. The burden of proof lies with the one who makes a claim that Aerith is polygamous.

They want their LTD resolution AND their lesbians. Greedy.

(I only like fictional love triangles if they're toxic and seething with jealousy).

 

[Theozilla]

I mean Cloud thinks he’s going to die (plus his adopted son as well) from a terminal illness in AC/C, in addition to suffering from his survivor’s guilt. Regardless of what one thinks of the writing quality of AC/C, I think it’s kinda of dismissive to disregard Cloud and his issues, as just being a “man-child” in it.

 

[MasterMoogle]

I mean Cloud thinks he’s going to die (plus his adopted son as well) from a terminal illness in AC/C, in addition to suffering from his survivor’s guilt. Regardless of what one thinks of the writing quality of AC/C, I think it’s kinda of dismissive to disregard Cloud and his issues, as just being a “man-child” in it.

So if you were diagnosed with a terminal illness, you'd isolate yourself from those who care about you? That's not how I would spend my last days. Again, I just can't respect Cloud's behavior often times. He runs away from every problem he can't slice through.

 

[Theozilla]

So if you were diagnosed with a terminal illness, you'd isolate yourself from those who care about you? That's not how I would spend my last days.

I don’t know, individual responses to stuff like that isn’t always rational. Terminal illness and depression rarely are. But there are plenty of people who end up isolating themselves when they suffering mentally, it’s a very common symptom.

 

[Master Bates]

I wonder if Tifa will ever get a bridal carry scene like Aerith and Jessie got. Maybe she's too tough for that, but it would be cute.

Tifa will bridal carry Cloud. Just you wait.

 

[youffie]

When I first saw AC and I read the novels I was no older than 15/16, I think, and I was… very harsh on Cloud too. I didn’t understand why he’d act like that, and especially why he wouldn’t even try to explain to Tifa what was going on. Then again, I thought that I could rationalize my way through anything and that pretty much everyone had their life figured out at the age of 20.

Oh boy was I wrong I'm not proud of it, but I also sometimes hurt my SO by withdrawing into myself in the past – not because I wanted to, it was just a thing that I did when I was in pain, because sometimes for certain people communication is hard, and relationships are even harder. And I didn’t even have the sheer amount of trauma and PTSD and guilt that Cloud had to live with.

AC is no stellar writing and it doesn’t convey its point very well, not to mention the fact that it's too reliant on the novels (Case of Tifa in particular) to fully make sense, but it’s the Compilation title that has grown on me the most. Cloud is not meant to be the protagonist that we look up at. He's the protagonist that keeps screwing up and almost, almost gives up, but eventually finds the strength to do the right thing and save the day despite himself. I admire that more than someone who just always does what's right because it comes easy to them.

 

[MasterMoogle]

When I first saw AC and I read the novels I was no older than 15/16, I think, and I was… very harsh on Cloud too. I didn’t understand why he’d act like that, and especially why he wouldn’t even try to explain to Tifa what was going on. Then again, I thought that I could rationalize my way through anything and that pretty much everyone had their life figured out at the age of 20.

Oh boy was I wrong I'm not proud of it, but I also sometimes hurt my SO by withdrawing into myself in the past – not because I wanted to, it was just a thing that I did when I was in pain, because sometimes for certain people communication is hard, and relationships are even harder. And I didn’t even have the sheer amount of trauma and PTSD and guilt that Cloud had to live with.

AC is no stellar writing and it doesn’t convey its point very well, not to mention the fact that it's too reliant on the novels (Case of Tifa in particular) to fully make sense, but it’s the Compilation title that has grown on me the most. Cloud is not meant to be the protagonist that we look up at. He's the protagonist that keeps screwing up and almost, almost gives up, but eventually finds the strength to do the right thing and save the day despite himself. I admire that more than someone who just always does what's right because it comes easy to them.

Wasn't talking about saving the day. Like I said, Cloud keeps running away from every problem he can't slice through.

Nobody is asking for a character that doesn't make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, but many people also learn from them.

 

[Sibil]

Wasn't talking about saving the day. Like I said, Cloud keeps running away from every problem he can't slice through.

Nobody is asking for a character that doesn't make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, but many people also learn from them.

Offtopic but I assume you have experience with PTSD, depression and survivor's guilt then? If so, then good on you for being strong to handle that.

But to assume that someone that isn't acting according to the way you want them as "manchild" is pretty disengenious. Though I guess this is where we should just agree to disagree.

 

[Graymouse]

We are way off topic.

In the Remake Cloud loves Tifa.

This should get things back on track.

Wasn't talking about saving the day. Like I said, Cloud keeps running away from every problem he can't slice through.

Nobody is asking for a character that doesn't make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, but many people also learn from them.

In the Remake, I think Cloud has been doing just that. Especially towards Tifa. When his landlady Marle pulled him aside and asked Cloud to be Tifa's real friend. Of course Cloud responded that we are all ready friends, but the landlady had to break it down and tell Cloud that "when Tifa talks, are you really listening? Thinking about her and her feelings? Or are you just going through the motions?"

Later in the game you get to see the payoff of that after Cloud comes back from helping out Jessie. When Tifa goes into Cloud's room and offers small talk with Cloud. Then, Tifa asks the question and the real reason why she came into Cloud's room was to make sure that he wasn't leaving Midgar. I think at this point Tifa was scared that Cloud was about to leave. Cloud then remembers his childhood promise, on his own by the way and then ask Tifa, "do you want to talk?" "I am listening"

The above is a perfect example of character growth. Cloud has to become strong if he is going to be the leader of this ragtag group of friends that go on to do bigger and bigger things. I for one hope that the Devs of the Remake will continue to do these type of character growth for the entire cast.

Edited to add something relevant to conversation.

 

[Edley]

Was talking about this in the discord and wanted to bring it up here. I love that in remake they're slowly telling the story of Cloud being saved and shaped by three people who love him and teach him to love himself.

Aerith says don't fall in love with me, but she's the one who's falling. Tifa is terrified to express her growing feelings and Cloud wouldn't even know where to start, yet their physical intimacy is a language unto itself (Words aren't the only way). Zack's coming arc maybe new ground, but he literally dragged the man across the world and is talking to a catatonic about working together and building a life. These people adore Cloud and he in turn is gonna grow to cherish them all.

Funny enough, the most emotional scene for me was when Charlie Sheen Biggs compared Cloud to the kids in the orphanage. I don't usually get emotional, even with this game that I love dearly, but I was playing for the next few minutes with tears in my eyes and damn I did not expect this story to be so tender.

So yeah, the shipping trope stuff is there, but SE's "old men" are telling a sentimental love story (that has about 100 hours of suffering to go before we get there). To pick one relationship over another is coloring with half a box of crayons.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Biggs is a lovely person. They did a great job with his character.
I like to think Barret means something to Cloud too. Whatever Barret's faults, you can't spend long with him without admiring and respecting him, even if he's totally exasperating sometimes too.

 

[Odysseus]

Tifa will bridal carry Cloud. Just you wait.

yessssss

 

[looneymoon]

my boyfriend beat OG last night. I was surprised by his reaction to the Highwind scene, because immediately he said "ohhhh they boned, way to go Cloud buddy." I didn't really get that without the extra creator commentary. I guess cuz I was still a little kid when I first played it.

Anyways, this morning he told me he thinks Cloud/Aeris is better, and I am SHOOK.

All these years of him simping for Tifa's tiddies, resolutely saying "Tifa" when I ask "who's best girl"...

smh who even is this person

 

[Edley]

Biggs is a lovely person. They did a great job with his character.
I like to think Barret means something to Cloud too. Whatever Barret's faults, you can't spend long with him without admiring and respecting him, even if he's totally exasperating sometimes too.

Words won't do justice for Barret, so I'll share the video clip below. For context Austin Creed is a game streamer when he's not being a world traveling pro wrestler with WWE. Creed spends about 300 days a year on the road away from his son who is about Marlene's age. His reaction to this scene is coming from a deep place and helped me understand Barret on a different level.

Cloud lacks a role model/reference for fatherhood until Barret comes along.

(Should start up around 56 minute mark)

Sorry for going off topic.

 

[Graymouse]

I feel that all in all the character growth of everyone thus far in the game has been tangible. The scene with Barret and Marlene broke my heart! Aerith and Marlene, Cloud and Aerith, Aerith and Tifa, Cloud and Tifa, even Barret and Red XIII. I really hope that SE will continue to do this.

Even the villains of the story were fleshed out. The helicopter scene with Rude's hand "slipping" when Reno was about shoot Tifa.

It makes the story that we think we "mostly know already" a new and interesting one. I wonder if this is what the Devs planned back in 97 but didn't have the technology to convey what the characters mean to each other.

 

[Yumelinh]

Thought you would like to see it @Maidenofwar

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1260816519283585024

 

[MasterMoogle]

Was talking about this in the discord and wanted to bring it up here. I love that in remake they're slowly telling the story of Cloud being saved and shaped by three people who love him and teach him to love himself.

Aerith says don't fall in love with me, but she's the one who's falling. Tifa is terrified to express her growing feelings and Cloud wouldn't even know where to start, yet their physical intimacy is a language unto itself (Words aren't the only way). Zack's coming arc maybe new ground, but he literally dragged the man across the world and is talking to a catatonic about working together and building a life. These people adore Cloud and he in turn is gonna grow to cherish them all.

Funny enough, the most emotional scene for me was when Charlie Sheen Biggs compared Cloud to the kids in the orphanage. I don't usually get emotional, even with this game that I love dearly, but I was playing for the next few minutes with tears in my eyes and damn I did not expect this story to be so tender.

So yeah, the shipping trope stuff is there, but SE's "old men" are telling a sentimental love story (that has about 100 hours of suffering to go before we get there). To pick one relationship over another is coloring with half a box of crayons.

I think you're forgetting the fact that Cloud is literally not himself before Mideel. Tifa is falling for the memory of Cloud, and the fact that he activates her maternal almonds. Aerith doesn't even know who he actually is, but she's seeing shades of Zack in him. Zack knew him before Nibelheim, but not after his brain created a new identity, cause he died.

My point is, Cloud is a mystery they're all(except Zack for obvious reasons) trying to understand. Just like Cloud's emotions toward Aerith post-FF7 are tainted with guilt, Tifa and Aerith's emotions are tainted with other things.