SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
Fun fact: I made a Playmate bunny Tifa (and Aerith) drawing like 20 years ago! lmao
That ass tho
MasterMoogle
Pro Adventurer
Attachments
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
Tifa is the favorite in the West.
In Japan, it flip flops between Tifa and Aerith with it leaning towards Aerith more times than not.
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Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
Yeah, that is what makes it so interesting. I guess the Remake really made a lot of new Cloud X Tifa fans
Maidenofwar
They/Them
Yes, those things are shippy, you're not going to take them from me! 
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Strangelove
AI Researcher
- AKA
- hitoshura
finally someone else who gets itI would
its the beard ok
Maidenofwar
They/Them
"You came for me" is a clerith motif, of course it's shippy, and something a CxA person would get, it's throwback to similar scene from OG, Advent Children, and compliments a resolution scene here. It's also important to highlight because people have said a lot of CxA scenes from OG were removed but sometimes they weren't, they've just been moved to happen at a different part, or in different ways. They knew what they were doing when they put in "You came for me" and what some would get from it. That's always going to be a special moment to some, I don't think anyone would be able to totally destroy or undermine it no matter how hard they tried.
I addressed this scene earlier in the thread, and about how sometimes less is more, Cloud really doesn't have to do more than answer in a simple affirmative, it's a simple exchange that's going to speak volumes to those who correlate it to the CxA "You came for me" motif.
I addressed this scene earlier in the thread, and about how sometimes less is more, Cloud really doesn't have to do more than answer in a simple affirmative, it's a simple exchange that's going to speak volumes to those who correlate it to the CxA "You came for me" motif.
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MasterMoogle
Pro Adventurer
I never viewed Cloud and Aerith's relationship to be romantic from the beginning, in the original, so these motifs don't really mean much to me. How exactly do you expect this all to end, Maiden?
- What if Aerith dies again? Tifa wins. They were together in AC/DC, and they'll be together again by the end of this Remake.
- What if Aerith lives? This opens up possibilities, but none of them involve a Clerith conclusion, IMO. Why? Because the entire point of Tifa's story is Cloud. Aerith can exist indepedent of Cloud as a character, but Tifa can't.
Think of this from the perspective of the developers, Maiden. The developers aren't shippers. They're trying to tell a coherent story.
Sasseli
~*:Newbie:*~
@Maidenofwar I can relate. I used to like the pairing, too, not necessarily as the OTP, but I see the motifs and references. And the tenderness and preciousness of it all. I do think that the creators intended for Aerith to fall in love with Cloud. No, they definitely did (there's too many quotes to deny it @MasterMoogle). Zack is 5 years in the past, after all (sad as it is).
I just don't think that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are quite on the same page. Tifa clearly has his heart, is what I see loud and clear in the Remake. The OG was much more ambiguous. And thus those motifs bore much more meaning for me in the OG.
And I also think a living Zack would swipe Aerith off her feet the first second she saw him. That would change *everything*!
I don't think the creators are shippers per sé, but they did put that LT there. For story reasons as much as anything. Everything they do not show or make official is up to players' interpretation. Thus this debate exists.
MasterMoogle
Pro Adventurer
Cloud only knew Aerith for about 3 weeks. Maybe a bit less, or a bit more. Their relationship in the OG ended on the "I want to meet the real you" note, which is hardly a love confession. There really aren't any quotes(canonically) that make Aerith's feelings for Cloud seem like more than confusion mixed with attraction.
People just don't understand, unlike Tifa, Aerith's story doesn't revolve around Cloud.
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Sasseli
~*:Newbie:*~
But she does wonder if it is okay for her to fall in love again. At least in *that* monologue she does. And there are a ton of hints and scenes implying she develops feelings of affection/attraction towards him. And the whole point of a LT, which verifiably (is that a word? idc) exists is rivaling love between three people. Or the beginnings of love. I don't ship Clerith, mind you, I just acknowledge that there are feelings between those two, even though they can never end up together (my opinion, still up to personal preferences and interpretation, because it's still ambiguous enough at this point).
But I have the same opinion as you. Storytelling-wise Tifa's the one and only. Unless she dies. Which won't happen.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
Like I said, you're not going to be able to take those moments from people. It's no less shippy than a "You saved me" "Yeah" CT moment, which people would immediately correlate with CxT motifs/the promise.
A lot of the CxT and CxA in this thread is taken in good faith, like the understanding that every time Cloud saves Tifa or is protective, concerned, etc of her can be shippy because of the promise and in the same vein for CxA because of the bodyguard thing, and I just want to shout out some appreciation for that, it's nice and refreshing to have some immediate oh yeah yeah I get that, I understand where that's coming from, sure that can stand, etc and the likes going on, the understanding of CxT and CxA motifs, and not trying to take them away and things, maybe not always, but it seems people are just really in sync sometimes, and that's something
A lot of the CxT and CxA in this thread is taken in good faith, like the understanding that every time Cloud saves Tifa or is protective, concerned, etc of her can be shippy because of the promise and in the same vein for CxA because of the bodyguard thing, and I just want to shout out some appreciation for that, it's nice and refreshing to have some immediate oh yeah yeah I get that, I understand where that's coming from, sure that can stand, etc and the likes going on, the understanding of CxT and CxA motifs, and not trying to take them away and things, maybe not always, but it seems people are just really in sync sometimes, and that's something
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MasterMoogle
Pro Adventurer
Like I said, you're not going to be able to take those moments from people. It's no less shippy than a "You saved me" "Yeah" CT moment, which people would immediately correlate with CxT motifs/the promise.
A lot of the CxT and CxA in this thread is taken in good faith, like the understanding that every time Cloud saves Tifa or is protective, concerned, etc of her can be shippy because of the promise and in the same vein for CxA because of the bodyguard thing, and I just want to shout out some appreciation for that, it's nice and refreshing to have some immediate oh yeah yeah I get that, I understand where that's coming from, sure that can stand, etc and the likes going on, the understanding of CxT and CxA motifs, and not trying to take them away and things, maybe not always, but it seems people are just really in sync sometimes, and that's something
This thread exists to debate. There is no such thing as good or bad faith. That line of reasoning is only being used to squash debate. If you don't want to debate, that's your choice.
Moving on, Tifa never says that("you saved me"). The "promise" is special because of the impact it had on Cloud's psyche, as proven by the lifestream sequence. The promise is romantic because of the context of when and where it was made.
The bodyguard deal isn't romantic. It was Aerith being playful, and Cloud never agreed to it. The reason it matters to Aerith is because she's so selfless, and she wants to do things on her own, but in the end she doesn't have to because of her friendships. This is spelled out for the player in the train graveyard, where Aerith is separated from Cloud and Tifa, but is "found," thus reminding her that she isn't alone. This isn't romantic, which is why it usually involves characters besides Cloud.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
This thread has been used for lots of different purposes and that's all I'm saying here! 
Ruri
Pro Adventurer
The Bodyguard concept can be romantic and what happened in the Train GY is not really relevant to it, whether it was romantic or not. The bodyguard deal is a Cloud/Aerith thing.
On whether C/A is romantic:
Cloud and Aerith can also be read as two people who met at the wrong time or the love that could never be because it never got a chance. I agree with the interpretation of their not being much depth in a romance between Cloud and Aerith while she was alive but opposite interpretations exist and so long as the developers say Aerith and Tifa both have the right to the 'R' word with the games prog, which they do, the opposite interpretation is valid. I think it's hard because people who don't feel the C/A chemistry or it's whole concept can't get behind the idea that these two people managed to fall in love for that very short time they had and will argue that interpretation, it's easy to squash the undertones in interactions when the two people in question have a very limited amount of time together. That is probably why the opposite side cherish and value those interactions instead.
It just isn't wrong to consider there was something romantic between Cloud and Aerith, no matter who sent the biggest signals, otherwise wouldn't the developers just tell you straight off the bat that Tifa is the only fit for Cloud instead of dismissing the LTD on the spot when asked?
Also Maiden was just making a shout out to the chill and accepting atmosphere in here, I think. It had nothing to do with debate.
On whether C/A is romantic:
Cloud and Aerith can also be read as two people who met at the wrong time or the love that could never be because it never got a chance. I agree with the interpretation of their not being much depth in a romance between Cloud and Aerith while she was alive but opposite interpretations exist and so long as the developers say Aerith and Tifa both have the right to the 'R' word with the games prog, which they do, the opposite interpretation is valid. I think it's hard because people who don't feel the C/A chemistry or it's whole concept can't get behind the idea that these two people managed to fall in love for that very short time they had and will argue that interpretation, it's easy to squash the undertones in interactions when the two people in question have a very limited amount of time together. That is probably why the opposite side cherish and value those interactions instead.
It just isn't wrong to consider there was something romantic between Cloud and Aerith, no matter who sent the biggest signals, otherwise wouldn't the developers just tell you straight off the bat that Tifa is the only fit for Cloud instead of dismissing the LTD on the spot when asked?
Also Maiden was just making a shout out to the chill and accepting atmosphere in here, I think. It had nothing to do with debate.
MasterMoogle
Pro Adventurer
All this ambiguity is exactly why the Clerith ship is so debatable. It's not the same with Cloti. I don't even think the devs intended for this to be a genuine "love" triangle, because that's not what they showed in the game.
a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- a_apple
I do think the scene is very strangely framed, I mean apart from being as anti climactic as possible, it's clearly not suppose to be taken in a romantic light, if it was suppose to be you wouldn't put Tifa in the same shot where Cloud and Aerith see each other again. That goes pretty hard against 101 visual story telling. I can't help but feel that this was done deliberately by the devs even more so if you compare it to the OG version of the same scene.
Ruri
Pro Adventurer
Agreed on the first part. It's debatable but my point was it made a valid debate mostly because of your second part: the devs. They will no longer claim any responsibility to say something direct. The evasiveness of answering is what fans the flames and leaving the triangle open for tearing to pieces. I am curious as to the individual thoughts on the LTD from the devs since OG and to now, as I'm sure opinions/thoughts have changed but I doubt we're ever going to get it. Kitase made that clear with "We don't talk about this stuff outside the game."
I was just trying to say Aerith has a bit of footing here, especially while she is still alive and dismissing all her actions as non romantic is unfair especially when she is still living and breathing and the second installment will support either side of the argument better.
As for what is shown in game and to differing interpretations, I am C/T but I thought the C/A midnight rendezvous was soaked in romantic undertones and I adored it. Before they got to the collapsed express way. I think it was the influence of the music. I also think the devs have said something about this also but I can't source the quote. If a Clerith could confirm whether I'm making this up or not?
Maidenofwar
They/Them
There are plenty of CxT moments where other characters are present, they are still CxT moments.
@Ruri You're not wrong!-
On "Midnight Rendezvous"-“There is a scene where Cloud and Aerith walk while looking at the night sky in front of the Suzuki Cave Road, but it's a very romantic and nice atmosphere” ~ Mitsuto Suzuki | Composer
The others were the park scene, and the Wall Market scene, that people from the FFVIIR team weighed in on
@Ruri You're not wrong!-
On "Midnight Rendezvous"-“There is a scene where Cloud and Aerith walk while looking at the night sky in front of the Suzuki Cave Road, but it's a very romantic and nice atmosphere” ~ Mitsuto Suzuki | Composer
The others were the park scene, and the Wall Market scene, that people from the FFVIIR team weighed in on
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MasterMoogle
Pro Adventurer
The thing about CxT is that their interactions are more physical. So when you see Tifa rubbing up against Cloud while Barret is in the room, it's hard to diminish that as being non-romantic. A lot of random UNNECESSARY touching between Cloud and Tifa.
a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- a_apple
Hmm, I got the feeling that most Cloud and Tifa scenes that you would consider as romantic are done pretty traditionally, where they both are the focus of the scene. Also, you hzave to keep in mind that we are not talking about some cutesy fanservice scene, this is Cloud and Aeriths Reunion after she got abducted, it is almost bafiling to put Tifa in it and also not give Cloud and Aerith a intimate moment together like they had in the original.
Ruri
Pro Adventurer
Thank you @Maidenofwar ! I think they utterly nailed what they were going for there. I could have stood on that path, looking at Wall Market for the first time, all night.
Oh and the park scene is a great C/A scene because at the moment where Cloud truly is able to part ways with Aerith, he stalls. It was cute.
Oh and the park scene is a great C/A scene because at the moment where Cloud truly is able to part ways with Aerith, he stalls. It was cute.
MasterMoogle
Pro Adventurer
Yes, that one moment in the playground right before they're about to part ways is a shippy moment. I can admit that.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Certainly how most folks would describe the death of a friend.
I must be in some special kind of a mood this morning, because I can't ignore this irrelevant, diminishing observation this time. I have twice experienced sudden, harsh, unfair circumstance cutting short the potential of something new and exciting after only three-ish weeks, and I still carry them with me every day, five and two years later respectively. So whatever other "Clerithy" notions aside, I know full well the versimilitude of the notion under the microscope here.
You underestimate the private emotional resonance of new relationship energy combined with a lack of closure. It's like a moment frozen in time inside you, where the natural way of things is that they change with time. Since this can't, though, you're left with an unmoving iceberg on the sea of your own psychological continuity.
MM said:
... "Koibito"?
There absolutely is. For examples of bad faith, see: character assassination; selective acknowledgement; or, as is most relevant to the current state of the discussion, engaging in the LTD while claiming that the "L" doesn't apply to one of the participant's feelings.
MM said:
Putting aside whether it's romantic, he fulfills her request to get her out of the church and later rereferences being her bodyguard himself. He absolutely agreed.
Kitase: "And having two heroines, Aerith and Tifa, and having the hero waver between them, at the time that was something new."