Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
pretty good analysis
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
pretty good analysis
DutchDread
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Dutch Dread
Someone said I should post this here, so I guess I will. I suppose this thread is about discussions so I'd like peoples opinion on this interpretation.
To be upfront, this is not an attempt to prove any ship, but since it does require a certain viewpoint I feel a disclaimer is in order. A ship can mean different things, that you think two people are together canonically, or should be together canonically, or that you simply enjoy the concept of them together, or that you think the story works better with them together.
In this case, it is more an analysis of a part of the story and why it work so well in my opinion, specifically when analyzed through the lens of one particular ship. You can use that as an indication that this was probably intentional, or you can see it as a happy accident that this just simply HAPPENED to turn out very well. To me personally, I don't make a conclusion about it (here), I think it's probably partially intentional, but I mostly think that this, along with some (honestly, "all") other aspects of the story, simply works better and more naturally when analyzed through the lens of a Cloud and Tifa pairing.
Hope someone finds it interesting to read. FFVII (and IX) caused me to study game design so I spent a LOT of time thinking and analyzing it.
I posted it in response to a discussion about who the heroine of FFVII is, Aerith or Tifa. So this is my, for lack of a better word, "professional" opinion on that matter.
Stories generally have both internal and external struggles, the internal struggles need to be resolved before the hero can resolve the external struggles, they are usually the more important part of a story, they are what gives it depth, weight, and meaning. The external struggles are usually just the vehicle which is used to deliver the actual soul of the story, which is the internal, human element.
Aerith in FFVII is the heroine of the external struggle. Tifa is the heroine of the internal struggle.
While Aerith has the task of stopping Sephiroth and Meteor, a very tangible and obvious goal, Tifa's is tasked with helping Cloud resolve his internal struggles (which are resolved as a direct consequence of Tifa resolving her own).
It's that resolving of the internal struggle that puts Cloud in the narrative position where he is able to succeed where before he failed.
He faces Sephiroth while his internal issues weren't solved yet and loses, then resolves them and through doing so finds the hidden power to succeed. This is classic writing.
This is the result of a choice that Aerith and Tifa both have to make in FFVII which cements their position within the story that's being told, while their relative roles are presented as relatively free and fluid in the early parts of the game, resulting in the LTD, those roles are firmly determined by the end.
Tifa and Aerith mirror each other throughout the story, Aerith is like Tifas reflection, the same, yet opposite.
The classic example of this is how Tifa looks sexy and outgoing when she's actually more shy and reserved, while Aerith is actually the flirty outgoing one despite her looking shy and reserved. But it goes deeper than that. The mirroring is present throughout their character arcs, starting 7 years before the beginning of the game.
About 2 years before Nibleheim, Cloud leaves Nibleheim and Tifa, an action that instigates Tifas romantic interest in him. Something that simmers in her for the next two years. Around the same time, Aerith meets Zack and starts being attracted to him. This lasts for 2 years.
When we get to Nibleheim, we see Cloud pining after Tifa and Zack after Aerith, both are having problems communicating, Cloud because he's literally too ashamed to talk to Tifa, Zack because his job keeps getting in the way.
We also see Tifa and Aerith both making attempts to approach their respective love interests in some way. Aerith is attempting to call Zack, Tifa is asking about Cloud, sending mails to Zack informing about Cloud, and talking about dreaming of being saved by a blond soldier or something to that nature.
Both Cloud and Zack have a promise that needs to be fulfilled, but, spoiler, seemingly won't be until the resolution of FFVII.
Cloud has promised to come protect Tifa when she's in need. Zack has promised to make Aeriths 23 tiny wishes come true, which eventually turns out to be one wish "I want to spend more time with you".
Nibleheim happens, and Cloud, for the second time in his life, fails to protect Tifa, he fails his promise, and for the next 5 years, Zack and Cloud seemingly disappear from the face of the planet. During this time, both Aerith and Tifa in some way are trying to cope with what they've lost, and are left feeling alone.
Tifa has lost nibleheim, her connection to Soldier, and therefore, Cloud. She doesn't know the truth of Cloud being there 5 years ago, and that that's really when he was torn from her.
Likewise, Zack is torn from Aerith, a guy she was developing strong feelings for, and in a way, a representation that not everything Shinra is bad in her Shinra dominated life.
She doesn't know what happened to Zack, but in some way feels that he's still alive, and still wears pink 5 years later in remembrance of her promise to him, to wear pink on their next date.
Zack and Cloud escape and Zack dies. Being drenched in Mako, having mind reading Jenova cells, Sephiroths influence, as well as his own insecurities cause Cloud to become a twisted amalgamation of himself and memories and ideas about Zack and who Cloud believes he should be. Instead of a weak failure, he's a stoic badass hero, who is able to protect the girl and do everything by himself, he's Zacks living legacy. Aerith feels Zack die, knows deep down something is wrong, and reluctantly tells herself that she needs to move on.
The stage of our play is set.
From this moment on Zack can be seen as Clouds reflection, both represented by this one entity (ZaCloud), and everything about Tifas bond and story with Cloud is mirrored in Aeriths bond and story with Zack.
Act 1: Our heroines meet ZaCloud, and in him, both are in a way reunited with their past love, to both, he represents something they thought they had lost, now unexpectedly returned to them. To Tifa, here is a last connection to Nibleheim and her childhood, and the boy she had developed a crush on. To Aerith, here is history repeating itself, another Soldier falls through her roof, and in him she sees Zack.
Both girls waste no time treating him as the person they believe and want him to be. Tifa talks to him like he's a precious friend whose she's always shared feelings with, and the soldier she thought he'd become, her Hero, finally come back to save her in her hour of need. When she realizes he is planning to leave, she panics, not wanting to lose him again.
Aerith conversely immediately starts trying to relive her time with Zack vicariously through Cloud. She immediately offers him a date in payment, something she learned from Zack, and starts interviewing him about this guy she's supposedly "over".
Even though Cloud on the surface clearly doesn't enjoy being interacted in with in that way, Aerith still talks to him the way she would with Zack, assuming, hoping, and wanting him to actually be like that. When Zack left, she lost him, and now she goes out of her way to stay with Cloud this time.
However, it doesn't take long for both girls to realize that there is something wrong with ZaCloud, he's clearly not who he's pretending to be.
Both the girls have a pre-existing relationship and ties with ZaCloud.
The difference is that Tifa's ties with ZaCloud come from his ties with the real Cloud, while in a perfect mirroring, Aeriths ties with ZaCloud come from her ties with Zack.
Intellectually, Tifa knows this has to be her Cloud in some way, but emotionally, she's afraid that he's not. Tifa wants the real Cloud back but is afraid that the "real Cloud" is not who she thinks he is.
Aerith knows intellectually that Cloud is not Zack, but emotionally she doesn't. Her feelings for Zack have latched onto this person, and she doesn't understand how or why. She tries to rationalize her feelings and wants to meet the real Cloud, and she hopes that that would explain and resolve her emotions.
Both girls are looking for the "real Cloud", and want the real Cloud to be who they are looking for, but as it tragically turns out, for only one of the girls the "real Cloud" will be the person her heart is searching for.
Act 2:
Throughout FFVII Cloud interacts with both girls, and both girls enable his delusions in some ways, Tifa refuses to refute Clouds fake persona. Even so, she's symbolic of who he actually is, a reminder of the person he's running away from, she is reality.
With Aerith he's literally living out his delusion of being Zack's living legacy, a cliché fantasy of being a powerful hero soldier out to save the magical girl, she is fantasy.
However, then reality hits like a freight train, Sephiroth kills Aerith, and Cloud, even now, even as a soldier, once again, fails to save anyone. He is no different, it's Nibleheim all over again. His delusions weren't real, and now he needs to pay the price of trying to live a fantasy.
Cloud loses his grip on what is reality and what is fantasy, not knowing who he is he is taken over by Sephiroth, hands him the black Materia, and falls into the lifestream.
This is ZaClouds final act.
Now throughout act 2, we've seen Clouds psyche break down. And both Aerith and Tifa are put in a position where they have to make a choice in their heart concerning Cloud, what he means to them, and what they are to him. For Aerith, this happens near the end of act 2.
Cloud gives the Black materia to Sephiroth at the temple of the ancients, and proceeds to violently beat Aerith. Afterwards Cloud has a vision of Aerith running away from him, going where he can't follow, and telling him to take care. When Cloud wakes up, Aerith is gone.
While Aerith doesn't blame Cloud for beating her, she realizes that she can't take on the burden of saving the planet as well as Cloud. She realizes that she'd been selfish, doing Cloud a disservice by bringing him along on a quest that clearly was having a toll on him mentally. She realizes that she shouldn't have been relying on him and burdening him with her past. She'd been trying to save him, thinking that was her role, the Zack connection made her think (and hope) that Clouds broken identity was "their story", but now has to acknowledge that she didn't really know who he was and that perhaps, her desire to see Zack again in Cloud made her insert herself into a story that she might not actually have been the key part off.
Aerith is put in a position where she has to make a choice, between going off and saving the planet, leaving Clouds fate in the hands of others, or staying with Cloud, and letting other people go and save the planet. She chooses to go save the planet. This is her vital decision within the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is. This decision directly results in her resolving the external conflict of the game by summoning holy and stopping meteor. It also directly results in her death, and subsequent "reunion" with Zack, bringing her character arc full circle.
By the end of the game she discovers the truth about Cloud, her confusion is lifted, and she finally understands how she, Cloud, Tifa, and Zack, all fit into each others stories, and in a way, Zacks promise has been upheld, through ZaCloud, Aerith was able to fulfill her wish and spend a little more time with Zack.
Aeriths choice has cemented her role as the heroine of the external conflict of FFVII.
Qeue, act 3:
However, the game goes on, Cloud breaks down, and we are treated with a strangely familiar scene mirroring the one we had with Aerith in the forest of the ancients.
Cloud once again hands the black materia to Sephiroth, we then see a vision of Cloud running away from Tifa into darkness, going where she presumably can't follow. We see Tifas backstory, we see the doubt and fear in her heart, and the conflict she's feeling about the truth of who Cloud is. She finds Cloud, poisoned with Mako, completely catatonic, and is forced to make the same choice that Aerith was forced to make at the temple of the ancients.
Should she stay with Cloud, and leave the fate of the world in the hands of the others, or should she leave Cloud, and go save the planet?
And opposite of Aerith, Tifa decides that no matter what, her place is at Clouds side. Before even entering the life stream she decides in her heart that the man in front of her IS the real Cloud, just Cloud after going through god knows what. From that moment it's no longer what HE went through, when she decides to stay by his side no matter what, it becomes what "THEY" have gone through. Whatever happened in the past happened to THEM, and whatever happens in the future will happen to THEM, this is "their story".
This is her vital decision in the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is, as a direct result of this, she falls into the lifesteam, enters Clouds sub-concious, and resolves Clouds inner struggle by retracing who he is, and what makes Cloud Cloud. The plotpoint of the promise is resolved when it is discovered that Cloud came for her in Nibleheim, that they did go through that together, that it was indeed "their story". That from the beginning, the person who had set it all in motion for Cloud, and was the one person who could resolve it, was Tifa, through the feelings he had locked inside his heart, for "Tifa Lockhart".
Tifas choice cements her role as the Heroine of the internal conflict of FFVII.
Cloud is restored, he faces reality and realizes and accepts that he's not Zack, that he can't do it alone, and together with and through his friends he finds the strength to defeat Sephiroth as a result of his internal struggle being overcome.
So both Tifa and Aerith are the heroine in their own way.
To be upfront, this is not an attempt to prove any ship, but since it does require a certain viewpoint I feel a disclaimer is in order. A ship can mean different things, that you think two people are together canonically, or should be together canonically, or that you simply enjoy the concept of them together, or that you think the story works better with them together.
In this case, it is more an analysis of a part of the story and why it work so well in my opinion, specifically when analyzed through the lens of one particular ship. You can use that as an indication that this was probably intentional, or you can see it as a happy accident that this just simply HAPPENED to turn out very well. To me personally, I don't make a conclusion about it (here), I think it's probably partially intentional, but I mostly think that this, along with some (honestly, "all") other aspects of the story, simply works better and more naturally when analyzed through the lens of a Cloud and Tifa pairing.
Hope someone finds it interesting to read. FFVII (and IX) caused me to study game design so I spent a LOT of time thinking and analyzing it.
I posted it in response to a discussion about who the heroine of FFVII is, Aerith or Tifa. So this is my, for lack of a better word, "professional" opinion on that matter.
Stories generally have both internal and external struggles, the internal struggles need to be resolved before the hero can resolve the external struggles, they are usually the more important part of a story, they are what gives it depth, weight, and meaning. The external struggles are usually just the vehicle which is used to deliver the actual soul of the story, which is the internal, human element.
Aerith in FFVII is the heroine of the external struggle. Tifa is the heroine of the internal struggle.
While Aerith has the task of stopping Sephiroth and Meteor, a very tangible and obvious goal, Tifa's is tasked with helping Cloud resolve his internal struggles (which are resolved as a direct consequence of Tifa resolving her own).
It's that resolving of the internal struggle that puts Cloud in the narrative position where he is able to succeed where before he failed.
He faces Sephiroth while his internal issues weren't solved yet and loses, then resolves them and through doing so finds the hidden power to succeed. This is classic writing.
This is the result of a choice that Aerith and Tifa both have to make in FFVII which cements their position within the story that's being told, while their relative roles are presented as relatively free and fluid in the early parts of the game, resulting in the LTD, those roles are firmly determined by the end.
Tifa and Aerith mirror each other throughout the story, Aerith is like Tifas reflection, the same, yet opposite.
The classic example of this is how Tifa looks sexy and outgoing when she's actually more shy and reserved, while Aerith is actually the flirty outgoing one despite her looking shy and reserved. But it goes deeper than that. The mirroring is present throughout their character arcs, starting 7 years before the beginning of the game.
About 2 years before Nibleheim, Cloud leaves Nibleheim and Tifa, an action that instigates Tifas romantic interest in him. Something that simmers in her for the next two years. Around the same time, Aerith meets Zack and starts being attracted to him. This lasts for 2 years.
When we get to Nibleheim, we see Cloud pining after Tifa and Zack after Aerith, both are having problems communicating, Cloud because he's literally too ashamed to talk to Tifa, Zack because his job keeps getting in the way.
We also see Tifa and Aerith both making attempts to approach their respective love interests in some way. Aerith is attempting to call Zack, Tifa is asking about Cloud, sending mails to Zack informing about Cloud, and talking about dreaming of being saved by a blond soldier or something to that nature.
Both Cloud and Zack have a promise that needs to be fulfilled, but, spoiler, seemingly won't be until the resolution of FFVII.
Cloud has promised to come protect Tifa when she's in need. Zack has promised to make Aeriths 23 tiny wishes come true, which eventually turns out to be one wish "I want to spend more time with you".
Nibleheim happens, and Cloud, for the second time in his life, fails to protect Tifa, he fails his promise, and for the next 5 years, Zack and Cloud seemingly disappear from the face of the planet. During this time, both Aerith and Tifa in some way are trying to cope with what they've lost, and are left feeling alone.
Tifa has lost nibleheim, her connection to Soldier, and therefore, Cloud. She doesn't know the truth of Cloud being there 5 years ago, and that that's really when he was torn from her.
Likewise, Zack is torn from Aerith, a guy she was developing strong feelings for, and in a way, a representation that not everything Shinra is bad in her Shinra dominated life.
She doesn't know what happened to Zack, but in some way feels that he's still alive, and still wears pink 5 years later in remembrance of her promise to him, to wear pink on their next date.
Zack and Cloud escape and Zack dies. Being drenched in Mako, having mind reading Jenova cells, Sephiroths influence, as well as his own insecurities cause Cloud to become a twisted amalgamation of himself and memories and ideas about Zack and who Cloud believes he should be. Instead of a weak failure, he's a stoic badass hero, who is able to protect the girl and do everything by himself, he's Zacks living legacy. Aerith feels Zack die, knows deep down something is wrong, and reluctantly tells herself that she needs to move on.
The stage of our play is set.
From this moment on Zack can be seen as Clouds reflection, both represented by this one entity (ZaCloud), and everything about Tifas bond and story with Cloud is mirrored in Aeriths bond and story with Zack.
Act 1: Our heroines meet ZaCloud, and in him, both are in a way reunited with their past love, to both, he represents something they thought they had lost, now unexpectedly returned to them. To Tifa, here is a last connection to Nibleheim and her childhood, and the boy she had developed a crush on. To Aerith, here is history repeating itself, another Soldier falls through her roof, and in him she sees Zack.
Both girls waste no time treating him as the person they believe and want him to be. Tifa talks to him like he's a precious friend whose she's always shared feelings with, and the soldier she thought he'd become, her Hero, finally come back to save her in her hour of need. When she realizes he is planning to leave, she panics, not wanting to lose him again.
Aerith conversely immediately starts trying to relive her time with Zack vicariously through Cloud. She immediately offers him a date in payment, something she learned from Zack, and starts interviewing him about this guy she's supposedly "over".
Even though Cloud on the surface clearly doesn't enjoy being interacted in with in that way, Aerith still talks to him the way she would with Zack, assuming, hoping, and wanting him to actually be like that. When Zack left, she lost him, and now she goes out of her way to stay with Cloud this time.
However, it doesn't take long for both girls to realize that there is something wrong with ZaCloud, he's clearly not who he's pretending to be.
Both the girls have a pre-existing relationship and ties with ZaCloud.
The difference is that Tifa's ties with ZaCloud come from his ties with the real Cloud, while in a perfect mirroring, Aeriths ties with ZaCloud come from her ties with Zack.
Intellectually, Tifa knows this has to be her Cloud in some way, but emotionally, she's afraid that he's not. Tifa wants the real Cloud back but is afraid that the "real Cloud" is not who she thinks he is.
Aerith knows intellectually that Cloud is not Zack, but emotionally she doesn't. Her feelings for Zack have latched onto this person, and she doesn't understand how or why. She tries to rationalize her feelings and wants to meet the real Cloud, and she hopes that that would explain and resolve her emotions.
Both girls are looking for the "real Cloud", and want the real Cloud to be who they are looking for, but as it tragically turns out, for only one of the girls the "real Cloud" will be the person her heart is searching for.
Act 2:
Throughout FFVII Cloud interacts with both girls, and both girls enable his delusions in some ways, Tifa refuses to refute Clouds fake persona. Even so, she's symbolic of who he actually is, a reminder of the person he's running away from, she is reality.
With Aerith he's literally living out his delusion of being Zack's living legacy, a cliché fantasy of being a powerful hero soldier out to save the magical girl, she is fantasy.
However, then reality hits like a freight train, Sephiroth kills Aerith, and Cloud, even now, even as a soldier, once again, fails to save anyone. He is no different, it's Nibleheim all over again. His delusions weren't real, and now he needs to pay the price of trying to live a fantasy.
Cloud loses his grip on what is reality and what is fantasy, not knowing who he is he is taken over by Sephiroth, hands him the black Materia, and falls into the lifestream.
This is ZaClouds final act.
Now throughout act 2, we've seen Clouds psyche break down. And both Aerith and Tifa are put in a position where they have to make a choice in their heart concerning Cloud, what he means to them, and what they are to him. For Aerith, this happens near the end of act 2.
Cloud gives the Black materia to Sephiroth at the temple of the ancients, and proceeds to violently beat Aerith. Afterwards Cloud has a vision of Aerith running away from him, going where he can't follow, and telling him to take care. When Cloud wakes up, Aerith is gone.
While Aerith doesn't blame Cloud for beating her, she realizes that she can't take on the burden of saving the planet as well as Cloud. She realizes that she'd been selfish, doing Cloud a disservice by bringing him along on a quest that clearly was having a toll on him mentally. She realizes that she shouldn't have been relying on him and burdening him with her past. She'd been trying to save him, thinking that was her role, the Zack connection made her think (and hope) that Clouds broken identity was "their story", but now has to acknowledge that she didn't really know who he was and that perhaps, her desire to see Zack again in Cloud made her insert herself into a story that she might not actually have been the key part off.
Aerith is put in a position where she has to make a choice, between going off and saving the planet, leaving Clouds fate in the hands of others, or staying with Cloud, and letting other people go and save the planet. She chooses to go save the planet. This is her vital decision within the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is. This decision directly results in her resolving the external conflict of the game by summoning holy and stopping meteor. It also directly results in her death, and subsequent "reunion" with Zack, bringing her character arc full circle.
By the end of the game she discovers the truth about Cloud, her confusion is lifted, and she finally understands how she, Cloud, Tifa, and Zack, all fit into each others stories, and in a way, Zacks promise has been upheld, through ZaCloud, Aerith was able to fulfill her wish and spend a little more time with Zack.
Aeriths choice has cemented her role as the heroine of the external conflict of FFVII.
Qeue, act 3:
However, the game goes on, Cloud breaks down, and we are treated with a strangely familiar scene mirroring the one we had with Aerith in the forest of the ancients.
Cloud once again hands the black materia to Sephiroth, we then see a vision of Cloud running away from Tifa into darkness, going where she presumably can't follow. We see Tifas backstory, we see the doubt and fear in her heart, and the conflict she's feeling about the truth of who Cloud is. She finds Cloud, poisoned with Mako, completely catatonic, and is forced to make the same choice that Aerith was forced to make at the temple of the ancients.
Should she stay with Cloud, and leave the fate of the world in the hands of the others, or should she leave Cloud, and go save the planet?
And opposite of Aerith, Tifa decides that no matter what, her place is at Clouds side. Before even entering the life stream she decides in her heart that the man in front of her IS the real Cloud, just Cloud after going through god knows what. From that moment it's no longer what HE went through, when she decides to stay by his side no matter what, it becomes what "THEY" have gone through. Whatever happened in the past happened to THEM, and whatever happens in the future will happen to THEM, this is "their story".
This is her vital decision in the story, the decision that defines what her part in the play is, as a direct result of this, she falls into the lifesteam, enters Clouds sub-concious, and resolves Clouds inner struggle by retracing who he is, and what makes Cloud Cloud. The plotpoint of the promise is resolved when it is discovered that Cloud came for her in Nibleheim, that they did go through that together, that it was indeed "their story". That from the beginning, the person who had set it all in motion for Cloud, and was the one person who could resolve it, was Tifa, through the feelings he had locked inside his heart, for "Tifa Lockhart".
Tifas choice cements her role as the Heroine of the internal conflict of FFVII.
Cloud is restored, he faces reality and realizes and accepts that he's not Zack, that he can't do it alone, and together with and through his friends he finds the strength to defeat Sephiroth as a result of his internal struggle being overcome.
So both Tifa and Aerith are the heroine in their own way.
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Cat on Mars
Actually not a cat
I thought that happened under the Highwind.
Yes, I have nothing of value to offer and I'm in my work break. Great first post, keep it up!
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
I still maintain that you should post this on Remake's subreddit in case you ever feel like making a debate one day. It's also a really well-thought out analysis and chunks of this are stuff that I've picked up myself so it's probably something lots of people picked up on but haven't articulated as well as you.
I'll probably end up using paraphrases of your argument going forward.
And I love the parallels between Tifa and Aerith.
DutchDread
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Dutch Dread
I've noticed that on the remake subreddit it's often more an angry debate rather than a friendly discussion. I want to talk about FFVII with people, not against people.
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DutchDread
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Dutch Dread
As always, speculation, and not very good speculation.
Not real =/= as futile
In a game that has a character have a fake persona, a line about feelings not being real should be assumed to be literal until proven otherwise.
People have debated Hollow back and forth, and whether it means anything, Aerith didn't come out victorious, it was generally assumed to be about any number of things together, with it more vaguely representing a general feeling. If I remember correctly, the scene where it was played was originally during a quest named "crisis core", which would imply a Zack connection, just like in the ending and the references to rain.
Can't say for sure, since honestly I don't care, since it really doesn't matter.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
Cloud is emo and introverted. Zack is happy and outgoing.
Why didn't Cloud recognize Aerith if he transformed into Zack?
Adopting some memories =/= transformation.
Are Cloud's interactions with Tifa null-and-void due to Zack as well?
Point is -- Aerith evokes the REAL Cloud to the surface when he has a memory of his Mom telling him to have an "older girlfriend."
Cloud's love for Aerith brings the REAL Cloud's memories back to the surface.
Hollow:
Smile bright
Once more
This time
I will never let you go
PS:
Here you are again acting as the Judge Judy of what is good reasoning. LMAO.
Why didn't Cloud recognize Aerith if he transformed into Zack?
Adopting some memories =/= transformation.
Are Cloud's interactions with Tifa null-and-void due to Zack as well?
Point is -- Aerith evokes the REAL Cloud to the surface when he has a memory of his Mom telling him to have an "older girlfriend."
Cloud's love for Aerith brings the REAL Cloud's memories back to the surface.
Hollow:
Smile bright
Once more
This time
I will never let you go
PS:
Here you are again acting as the Judge Judy of what is good reasoning. LMAO.
DutchDread
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Dutch Dread
Can't help it that I am good at reasoning, it's just who I am.
That having been said, like I said earlier, I am not interested in discussing hollow, I've heard how the song came to be, and from what I can tell, we really can't draw any firm conclusions about it's subjects or its implications.
At most we can say it seems to be written with a general air of sorrow about the past in mind. It's also said that it was written about fighting a destiny that ultimately cannot be won (paraphrasing), which means that it's either not about Aerith, or that it's confirming that Cloud is destined to NOT be with Aerith, which would put a damper on the whole "soulmates" thing.
He never transformed into Zack, his memories got muddied up by Mako, Jenovas mind reading, Sephiroths influence, and his own insecuties.
No one has ever claimed that Cloud downloaded some sort of 1-on-1 copy of Zack from his brain, he copied an general collection of emotions, feelings, behavior, just "identity" in general. With perhaps some small pieces of memories (how would he know about the stuff he wasn't there for otherwise)
Presumably not, since we know that Tifa had no real connection to Zack, meaning it's more likely that they're genuinely from Cloud.
But when it comes to proving anything? Yes, absolutely, Nothing that happens between Cloud becoming Fake Cloud, and Cloud becoming himself again, is admissible as EVIDENCE that Cloud loved Tifa. Since while it's likely that's why it happens, we can't know for sure.
Luckily, that's not what Destiny shipping is based on, it's based on what happens before and what happens after.
Only, it's been stated that the real Cloud only surfaces with Tifa. Just because Cloud remembers something that happens, doesn't mean it's the real Cloud surfacing, Cloud hasn't lost all his memories. For instance, he remembers the promise with Tifa.
DutchDread
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Dutch Dread
Which literally says NOTHING about him being himself around her.
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DutchDread
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Dutch Dread
From the ultimania, ah well.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
Huh? Where is that quote from and who translated it?
And it doesn't change the fact that REAL Cloud still wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land after regaining his memories.
I don't understand why you keep trying to use Zack to discredit Clerith.
REAL Cloud has made it clear he cares for Aerith.
And it doesn't change the fact that REAL Cloud still wants to meet Aerith in the Promised Land after regaining his memories.
I don't understand why you keep trying to use Zack to discredit Clerith.
REAL Cloud has made it clear he cares for Aerith.
DutchDread
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Dutch Dread
I didn't bring Zack up, you did, but if you must know, the reason I WOULD bring up Zack in order to discredit Clerith, is because Zack discredits Clerith.
Of course real Cloud wants to meet Aerith, I've already told you, in order for the things you say to mean anything, they must also not be true in the opposing viewpoint.
If Cloti is true, Cloud would still want to meet Aerith after regaining his memories, literally nothing is different there, so stop bringing it up.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
Zack isn't in the love triangle. He can't discredit Clerith.
Aerith said Zack & her were "never serious," that her relationship with him is "in the past now," and that Zack probably moved on because he's a "real lady's man." The Remake confirms this to be true. Aerith states she wants to move "FORWARD" with her life in regards to Zack. Did you even play the Remake?
Plus, we know from the CxA Gold Saucer date that although Aerith initially liked Cloud because of Zack, she grows to like Cloud for Cloud.
And don't tell me to "stop" bringing something up. You aren't Judge Judy.
PS:
Where is your quote from? Who translated it?
And I thought you said only Tifa brought out the REAL Cloud's memories?
I provided you with a quote that disproves verbatim what you said. Are you running scared?
“Gradually, Aerith’s warm cheer begins to melt Cloud’s frosty exterior.
It is the heroine, Aerith, who opens Cloud’s eyes, and helps bring him closer to understanding the mystery that is his past.”
~Square Enix
PPS:
Of course you don't want to debate "Hollow." It helps Clerith.
Aerith said Zack & her were "never serious," that her relationship with him is "in the past now," and that Zack probably moved on because he's a "real lady's man." The Remake confirms this to be true. Aerith states she wants to move "FORWARD" with her life in regards to Zack. Did you even play the Remake?
Plus, we know from the CxA Gold Saucer date that although Aerith initially liked Cloud because of Zack, she grows to like Cloud for Cloud.
And don't tell me to "stop" bringing something up. You aren't Judge Judy.
PS:
Where is your quote from? Who translated it?
And I thought you said only Tifa brought out the REAL Cloud's memories?
I provided you with a quote that disproves verbatim what you said. Are you running scared?
“Gradually, Aerith’s warm cheer begins to melt Cloud’s frosty exterior.
It is the heroine, Aerith, who opens Cloud’s eyes, and helps bring him closer to understanding the mystery that is his past.”
~Square Enix
PPS:
Of course you don't want to debate "Hollow." It helps Clerith.
DutchDread
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Dutch Dread
He's not in the love triangle cause he's dead, the same reason Aerith is not in the love triangle NOW. And you claiming that he can't discredit it, doesn't make it true.
Really? It confirms it to be true? And here I was thinking Zack died still trying to get back to her, I guess not everything Aerith says is true. Fact is, remake confirms the opposite.
Yeah, which, confirms that she's not over Zack, seriously, did you even see the scene?
Well, you clearly didn't
Nope, we know no such thing, we know that Aerith is initially attracted to Cloud because he reminds her of Zack, then she's attracted to Fake Cloud because she's attracted to fake Cloud. But Aerith doesn't know that Fake Clouds behavior is actually Cloud mirroring Zack, and that therefore, the reason she's attracted to Fake Cloud, is likely still Zack.
Again, Aerith has never met the real Cloud, has stated that she doesn't know who the real Cloud is, and that she wants to meet him, which confirms, she can't be attracted to the real Cloud, in that moment.
Good job btw bringing up the fact that even in their last date, Aerith is still talking about her ex, and trying to convince herself she's over him. I remember the last time I was on a date with a girl and she was talking about how I wasn't her ex, and how she was sure that she liked me for me, and not for him, and that this time it would be different. I remember thinking "well this is clearly a girl whose over her ex".
Nope, I'm better,
It's from the remake ultimania, and if you want details on the translation:
https://finalheaven.co/post/616689678046887936/clouds-true-self-with-tifa
This goes over every kanji seperately.
Seriously though, doesn't being proven wrong get tiring for you?
Terrified, if you'd actually provided a quote that says Cloud is his true self with Aerith, which you didn't, read your quote again.
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The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Enough with the jabs, you two.
BlankBeat
Pro Adventurer
How does the Remake confirm the opposite? Aerith already stated in the Remake that she wants to move "FORWARD" with her life.
And furthermore, the ending scene with Zack is just a "full-circle" moment to show us how Cloud made it to Midgar. Since the Remake is a stand alone game, it is necessary to show us how Cloud made it to Midgar.
Also -- if Zack lives, that is likely in an alternate universe.
Regardless, Zack isn't in the love triangle. He's irrelevant. Aerith already stated in the Remake that she wants to move "FORWARD" with her life.
Right. By the time the Gold Saucer date hits, Aerith is officially over Zack. Did you even play the OG?
I know you are but what am I?
“Although in the beginning Aerith felt close to Cloud because he behaved like Zack, her interest in Cloud himself grows and she is attracted to him.”
~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega; Square Enix
Aerith: “At first when I met Cloud, I believed he was similar to Zack. Little actions, the way he spoke… his kindness. But Cloud is Cloud. I, now undoubtedly, love Cloud much more than Zack.”
~Final Fantasy VII Dismantled; Square Enix
No one is better than Judge Judy, silly.
You are using a Cloti blog as your proof? LMAO.
Don't revise what you said.
You said only Tifa brings out the real Cloud's memories. Which isn't true. I have a quote that disproves you.
You are now saying I need a quote to show Cloud was his true self with Aerith. You are revising what you originally claimed.
Well, you already admitted that Cloud didn't transform into Zack.
Cloud is emo and introverted. Zack is happy and outgoing. Therefore, the real Cloud was present during disc 1.
Also --
“After developing his personality by using Zack’s memory as a base, Cloud still maintained the part of coolness even though Zack had cheerful characteristics. The part of Cloud’s coolness that keeps him away from the surroundings and the part of his asserting "no interests” all have nothing to do with the influence of Jenova cells. They belong to the real Cloud’s personality." ~Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega
So although Cloud wasn’t completely himself during disc 1, parts of the 'real’ Cloud were present during his time with Aerith. It is also stated that the Jenova cells inside Cloud mimicked Tifa’s memories of him. Since Tifa’s memories were of the 'real’ Cloud, Jenova’s cells mimicked portions of the 'real Cloud’ and fashioned yet another personality for him.
Further – Aerith Gainsborough met Cloud Strife during a very troubling time in his life. His memories were jumbled and he was being controlled by Jenova’s cells. However, despite these challenges, Aerith was able to reach through to Cloud’s core and leave a long-lasting impression on him that he carries with him to this very day.
One needs to look no further than Cloud’s behavior and actions after regaining his memories to see how much Aerith meant to the real Cloud: he remembers her often, fights to avenge her death, carries grief and guilt over not being able to protect her, and eventually begins living in her Church. Zack’s memories and Jenova’s cells weren’t enough to stop Aerith from reaching Cloud’s heart.
Zack’s memories and Jenova’s cells weren’t enough to stop Cloud from truly caring about and developing a love for Aerith that has stayed with him forever.
All of this makes the case even more compelling for Cloud x Aerith because Cloud developed a love for Aerith despite Jenova’s cells and despite Zack’s memories — a love he has carried with him long after regaining his memories.
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kate-kane
Rookie Adventurer
This is hilarious coming from someone who linked an entire Cloud/Aerith music video to the song Rewrite the Stars, imploring others to watch it for proof.
The Twilight Mexican
Ex-SeeD-ingly good
- AKA
- TresDias
Reminder to folks that this LTD thread is for the remake.
On a related note:
The remake doesn't confirm any of that (except the obvious, undebatable matter of whether her relationship with Zack was in the past rather than the future =P ). Those lines aren't even in the remake.
On a related note:
The remake doesn't confirm any of that (except the obvious, undebatable matter of whether her relationship with Zack was in the past rather than the future =P ). Those lines aren't even in the remake.
Final_Heaven
Pro Adventurer
She also seems to have a general idea about his identity issues too (same as in the OG) and says that any romantic feelings that he thinks he feels for her aren't true even if he thinks he feels them. Something to think about.
It does give ammo to the theory that it's the Zack part of Cloud's identity is heavily fueling those feelings.
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Sasseli
~*:Newbie:*~
Why is it that, so often, the Clerith shippers are so damn narrow-minded (that's what I perceive)? It makes me furious. Why can't they (and everyone else, mind you) appreciate that there are indeed some kind of romantic feelings between Cloud and both women? But that Tifa's clearly the one who has a future (with Cloud) and that, ultimately, Aerith meets Zack in the lifestream (whom she is NEVER over with btw!) and that's that between her and Cloud. But as she hasn't died yet in the Remake, the how and when (and even if) are yet to be seen.
With all the scenes we get between Cloud and Aerith, I still find the intimacy and emotional impact between Cloud and Tifa far stronger. 1000000% stronger. In fact, the optional scene in chapter 14 is like the only scene in the whole game that transmits any romantic implication between Cloud and Aerith, for me at least (I'd really have to think for other scenes). Cloud and Tifa on the other hand... ohh, boy.
And, of course, Zack. The Remake has brought him back in the game! Of course, he's relevant now! Wilfully ignoring that doesn't help in the long run.
With all the scenes we get between Cloud and Aerith, I still find the intimacy and emotional impact between Cloud and Tifa far stronger. 1000000% stronger. In fact, the optional scene in chapter 14 is like the only scene in the whole game that transmits any romantic implication between Cloud and Aerith, for me at least (I'd really have to think for other scenes). Cloud and Tifa on the other hand... ohh, boy.
And, of course, Zack. The Remake has brought him back in the game! Of course, he's relevant now! Wilfully ignoring that doesn't help in the long run.
the older woman thing looks like a call to aerith on the surface but if you watch the scene carefully it also hints at tifa. when cloud opens his eyes after the dream there are stars in his eyes, like the stars in the sky on the night they made their promise.
it's a good scene, depending on your interpretation it could point to either of the girls. although my personal opinion is that it points to tifa more since aerith is like literally the opposite of mature lol.
