SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[luminous03]

Finally looked through Twitter. Holy hell.
I had no idea the copium was that bad.

The entertainment that i got while watching them cope is unbelievable

 

[GamerSkull]

The entertainment that i got while watching them cope is unbelievable

 

[hytekz]

No you don't understand in the land of Japan (nihon) the act of hand holding (te tsunagi) is more romantic than a kiss, only real soulmate does the te tsunagi (real shit I saw there)
I also brought up the Midgar Blues to some of them and they say "yeah but Hollow is a song from Cloud perspective towards Aerith". And when you ask them an actual quote they go "lmao media illiteracy it's so obvious"
I just mute them now, you can't win with them.

 

[Ruri]

Twitter include the vast, grand echo chambers that the more intense shippers mistake for hills they think they are standing on with any solid footing.

Not going to lie, I actually secretly hope that Uematsu speaking up on nptk being a love song motivates some CAs to have some confidence to post in this thread. As it stands, they think posting song lyrics about Aerith's feelings to Cloud, changes the dynamic that Cloud and Aerith have always had. It doesn't. I'll wait but I think the lack of their presence here (besides Maiden! <3) says a lot that the song changes nothing, and cloti stays on track to end game this franchise, again.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Ok. So I won't analyze it fully. I'm retired now lol

But read Aerith's monologue about Cloud AND Zack and her conflicted feelings. Then listen to No Promises To Keep. There you go.

It's about both. Especially this part strikes me as Cloud The first verse describing Loveless street and that's where she met Cloud which is definitely described in official materials as a fated encounter. Then "Just let me believe in the chance that will come". If this was about Zack she would not need to be let to believe in a chance because

1. He is dead
2. Zack's love for Aerith is a guarantee. She doesn't need to believe anything.

Never Enough is about Unrequited love and that's what this is based on.

Then there are references to Zack. "Our place" is the church and that's a reference for Zack.

"Know you will find me" I think is a reference to reunion and could be the Promised Land. Which funny how she mentions she won't need promises of all things.

Also like anyone notice that in Ever crisis of all things Aerith has princess Rosa's dress and Zack has a prince outfit for*cough probably some reason. That connects him to Loveless.

I'm pretty sure Loveless is a metaphor here for Aerith's feelings. And I think @eleamaya hit the nail on the head.

Well. That's my take. It's very close to her monologue to me. Which is about both Cloud and Zack.

Edit: This interview helps too. Seems to match her monologue a lot which is about her relationship with Cloud and her feelings which are conflicted. Final Fantasy VII Rebirth: How Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Allred created Aerith’s “No Promises to Keep”

 

[GamerSkull]

Twitter include the vast, grand echo chambers that the more intense shippers mistake for hills they think they are standing on with any solid footing.

Not going to lie, I actually secretly hope that Uematsu speaking up on nptk being a love song motivates some CAs to have some confidence to post in this thread. As it stands, they think posting song lyrics about Aerith's feelings to Cloud, changes the dynamic that Cloud and Aerith have always had. It doesn't. I'll wait but I think the lack of their presence here (besides Maiden! <3) says a lot that the song changes nothing, and cloti stays on track to end game this franchise, again.

To be honest, I’d love to discuss it with them. Like, a debate in which both sides bring up explicit evidence instead of anything that might be interpreted.

I feel like a nice and respectful debate can be had with those parameters. Like I said, the ship itself was never my issue… it’s complete denial of textual evidence that typically astounds me.

Like I just saw someone comment that Tifa fans must be seething at the Aerith date… and that Aerith’s dream date was non-optional romance that can’t be avoided.

But no mention of what is actually said in the date, at all.

 

[liuliuliu]

I mean the story will be the same if Aerith is a guy honestly, and takes out all romance factor. That a typical Shonen manga.
And honestly will the story be as good as it is right now(even better)? Yes! But it will not be as famous as right now and make much less money since there will be less discussion.
And we probably won’t see a remake for it.

 

[faefolk]

2) When Cloud remembers Zack in Nibelheim, he tells Tifa and says he should inform Aerith that Zack is dead. Tifa looks uncomfortable and says that he should let her tell Aerith instead, because she knows how to break it to her better or something...Is this conversation supposed to indicate Aerith is fully aware that Zack is dead and Tifa already knows this too?

Apologies if this has already been answered now (I'm just catching up on the thread) but no I don't think that's it. It's that Cloud is telling Tifa that Zack drowned and saying Aerith deserves to know. Tifa is aware that this is not at all what happened to Zack, because she was with them when the infantryman died and knows Zack got out of the water and continued to the reactor. Undoubtedly she's already told Aerith everything she knows and about Clouds retelling of Nibelheim being from Zacks perspective. We know they've spoken about it at length from different scenes in Rebirth so.. yeah.. I think it's more the fact that Cloud telling Aerith Zack drowned when she knows he didn't would just be hella awkward.

 

[Hellenic]

To be honest, I’d love to discuss it with them. Like, a debate in which both sides bring up explicit evidence instead of anything that might be interpreted.

I feel like a nice and respectful debate can be had with those parameters. Like I said, the ship itself was never my issue… it’s complete denial of textual evidence that typically astounds me.

Like I just saw someone comment that Tifa fans must be seething at the Aerith date… and that Aerith’s dream date was non-optional romance that can’t be avoided.

But no mention of what is actually said in the date, at all.

It's always just one line of dialogue or an image that they use as proof for anything while lacking all the context for their so called "proof". Tiresome bunch.

 

[faefolk]

Finally looked through Twitter. Holy hell.
I had no idea the copium was that bad.

I looked at it for the first time this month too and it's pretty crazy over there. Honestly just feel like life as a Clerith fan must be so depressing if you're that obsessed with Cloud mourning over some chick he knew for a month for the whole rest of his life. Like, it's just uncomfortable for me. I take kind of a logical view of love even in real life so I really just can't fathom their view tbh.

 

[Rin]

Ok. So I won't analyze it fully. I'm retired now lol

But read Aerith's monologue about Cloud AND Zack and her conflicted feelings. Then listen to No Promises To Keep. There you go.

It's about both. Especially this part strikes me as Cloud The first verse describing Loveless street and that's where she met Cloud which is definitely described in official materials as a fated encounter. Then "Just let me believe in the chance that will come". If this was about Zack she would not need to be let to believe in a chance because

1. He is dead
2. Zack's love for Aerith is a guarantee. She doesn't need to believe anything.

Never Enough is about Unrequited love and that's what this is based on.

Then there are references to Zack. "Our place" is the church and that's a reference for Zack.

"Know you will find me" I think is a reference to reunion and could be the Promised Land. Which funny how she mentions she won't need promises of all things.

Also like anyone notice that in Ever crisis of all things Aerith has princess Rosa's dress and Zack has a prince outfit for*cough probably some reason. That connects him to Loveless.

I'm pretty sure Loveless is a metaphor here for Aerith's feelings. And I think @eleamaya hit the nail on the head.

Well. That's my take. It's very close to her monologue to me. Which is about both Cloud and Zack.

Yeah I said the same thing. NPTK is just her monologue in song format. The song is about her feelings and she has feelings for both men, you can't separate her feelings for Cloud from her feelings from Zack because the whole reason Aerith even has feelings for Cloud is because he reminds her of Zack.

 

[GamerSkull]

I looked at it for the first time this month too and it's pretty crazy over there. Honestly just feel like life as a Clerith fan must be so depressing if you're that obsessed with Cloud mourning over some chick he knew for a month for the whole rest of his life. Like, it's just uncomfortable for me. I take kind of a logical view of love even in real life so I really just can't fathom their view tbh.

I agree with that. But I’m mostly referring to the denial and framing of certain scenes as more romantic than others.

And the fact that some people think Tifa fans should feel like the devs stuck a middle finger to her.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@shady As you asked none of this is predictions just thoughts that can be completely wrong:

I addressed NPTK so let me address Hollow: As for Hollow I think we can address the elephant here in the room that both songs do have similar lyrics "I will never let you go" "Never let me go" And in JP I think it's similar too but I'd have to check.

I know many are tired of the discourse about these songs but also avoiding addressing the similarities others see is what keeps the discourse going.

Both songs are said to contrast each other. I don't think this means necessarily that they're singing to each other or about each other but I don't think it's any coincidence they would have similar lyrics if they are meant to contrast as the creator himself said.

As for why they contrast and what exactly is the contrast that could will probably cleared up by the devs over time.

My take which could be completely wrong is Hollow is about Cloud's journey which does include Zack and Aerith and the guilt that comes with it. He's there talking about his selfishness how he was foolish and blind etc. That's guilt my friend.
And No Promises To Keep Is About Aerith's journey which does include both Zack and Cloud in it and her conflicted feelings.

In both cases narratively Aerith and Zack are intertwined for Cloud and for Aerith both Zack and Cloud are intertwined.

Addressing these things I think is how they will lead up to Advent Children. Because in AC Cloud has like extreme survivors guilt around Zack and Aerith. Aerith who by the end of this game is a symbol of his failure. So CA in that sense in PT3 I think will be addressing that extreme guilt which causes him to act the way he does in the end. He's already in full denial mode by the end of this game. He is already starting to lose something dear here after her death: his literal dear friend, and his sanity and sense of self which will completely be destroyed at Northern Crater when he loses Tifa's belief in him and CT will be about that and putting him back together. Ultimania hints about both events with this idea of something dear.

Not to mention everything he lost before including Zack and the guilt that comes with that.

He'd be pretty Hollow after these events are said and done.

And I think ZA will be about not just reunion or hope for reuinion after loss (Promised Lawnd) but also addressing what Zack and Aerith mean to Cloud. Because it's obviously a great deal if he is two years later feeling like he failed them.

As for will Cloud realize Aerith 's feelings. Idk but as I said I think we need to revisit two things Aerith's death he needs to come to terms with that and Aerith's resolution once it's all said and done. And idk but perhaps finding out Aerith has feelings for him is part of his extreme guilt. He failed her not just in not saving her but he couldn't be what she needed. This is of course not true and Aerith never blamed him and wouldn't want him to blame himself for anything but I think IF he realizes what she felt it wouldn't make him feel better after her death.
They could also just never have him find out and the extreme guilt would still be there.

Finally the last thing which could be wrong but I have always felt this way when Aerith dies I think part of Cloud's extreme guilt is he took her for granted. Leslie in Remake mentions you never know what you have till it's gone. So loss is a big theme and has always been but also the idea of cherishing each moment. I always found it interesting you have the option to be mean to Aerith at all. I figured it's because it's a simulation letting us take her for granted. Not appreciate her so her death feels like a loss. While we also have the opportunity to be nice and charmed by her so again her death feels like a loss. It's part creating that feeling of loss. And I believe now guilt.

And I think with ZA they're also exploring loss, guilt and their connection with Cloud and each other. Aerith also felt guilty for the idea of letting go of Zack and Zack currently feels guilty about not coming back to Aerith in time so guilt is definitely a part of the themes and not just for Cloud.

Again these are just thoughts could all be wrong but

Does that answer your questions?

 

[Ruri]

Honestly the optional argument backfires most times and I don't think they realise it. When asked what Cloud and Aerith got in Rebirth, a lot say: "heavy romantic moments from the last bit of the game" I have yet to be described what these heavy romantic moments are, and while I'm waiting, that optional Cloud and Tifa kiss comes in and blasts ending Cloud and Aerith off as if they were Team Rocket.

They don't talk about the Gongaga almost kiss either because in order to reason it or label it away as 'platonic' or such, they'd have to get past the guard dog, Yuffie.

 

[GamerSkull]

Honestly the optional argument backfires most times and I don't think they realise it. When asked what Cloud and Aerith got in Rebirth, a lot say: "heavy romantic moments from the last bit of the game" I have yet to be described what these heavy romantic moments are, and while I'm waiting, that optional Cloud and Tifa kiss comes in and blasts ending Cloud and Aerith off as if they were Team Rocket.

They don't talk about the Gongaga almost kiss either because in order to reason it or label it away as 'platonic' or such, they'd have to get past the guard dog, Yuffie.

The people that used to use Cait Sith as evidence for Clerith also now have to contend with that Yuffie bit.

 

[r_monk]

Somewhat related, but that Zack scene where he and Biggs are walking through the Sector 5 undercity, the NPC banter is really interesting. In particular, one woman near the train station says "How many partings and reunions has this station seen? Promises made and kept..."

 

[GamerSkull]

Somewhat related, but that Zack scene where he and Biggs are walking through the Sector 5 undercity, the NPC banter is really interesting. In particular, one woman near the train station says "How many partings and reunions has this station seen? Promises made and kept..."

Zack’s portion of the story has a lot of interesting ambient dialogue. If I remember correctly, a lot of it pertains to life and death too.

 

[Stiggie]

That’s a lot of the issues for me in a nutshell.

I greatly admire, respect even, their commitment to ambition and creativity.

But they are playing around with very big ideas that have been unsatisfactorily explored in other works more often than not. It’s very hard to deliver and execute in a manner that both ably answers the questions presented, but keeps things grounded enough in the characters and emotions of the story that we as the audience are also able to receive an evocative response.

Sure it’s fun when we learn something new, and a mystery is neatly solved. The original after all had some fascinating mysteries that were slowly unravelled, but they all had incredibly rich conclusions and answers that were first and foremost grounded in the emotions of the characters.

This is what makes the Lifestream so important and significant. It’s the venue for where so many of the permeating questions and mysteries are finally resolved but more importantly it’s the emotional payoff for Cloud and Tifa’s entire history and development together as characters.

Ever since the original, I believe they have seriously struggled time and again in the Compilation to capably match this level of skilful execution when it comes to following through on the big ideas they are pushing.

Sadly Remake and Rebirth are following the trend that was established in works like Advent Children and Crisis Core, where they lose sight of what made a majority of us fall for this world and it’s story and characters.

They successfully course corrected to an extent with Remake’s far stronger characterisations, and a reaffirmation that they do understand and care about these characters and trying to do them justice.

But the ending of Rebirth shows they are still pulled in the other direction, where they are able to completely forget about where the focus should be.

In a major, crucial story moment such as the entire Forgotten Capital scene, and Aerith’s fate, everything in those moments should be focused in on the characters.

It’s more a character moment than it is a story one, at that particular moment. Her fate becomes more important to the wider narrative later.

But in the moment it happens, at least in the original, Cloud literally tells Sephiroth to shut up, and to stop his monologuing because in that moment all that matters is that Aerith is gone. The moments after care about showing how the others feel about that loss. It remains firmly rooted in the emotions of the party, because how they are feeling should be mirrored by how the audience is feeling.

And for some bizarre reason that I can foresee people like myself pondering over for years, in Rebirth they chose to take this moment and make it all about the wider implications as it pertains to the ongoing trilogy long mysteries and questions about all the other things they’ve chosen to include and/or expand on from the original (they say) whilst robbing the scene and the characters of their own key, emotional moments.

For a very long game that spends the majority of the time spent exploring the depths of its cast of characters, and the connections they forge amongst themselves, the ending should be a rich and emotional conclusion to so much of what had been established in the characters and their bonds. Otherwise what was the point of it all, if during this key moment you instead choose to prioritise confusion and sowing further tangled webs of intrigue and mystery, because making sure the audience has enough nuggets to go on for another four years of theorycrafting is more worthwhile than giving Aerith the conclusion to her story in this game she deserves. More worthwhile than a satisfying denouement to the middle part of a trilogy.

They chose to make a comparison to The Empire Strikes Back, a middle film in a trilogy that leaves its heroes at their lowest point.

But the irony is Empire’s ending is laser focused in on the characters.

A friend mentioned the endings to Goblet of Fire and Half-Blood Prince, two entries in a series that similarly ends with the characters at a very low point in their developments and journeys, the story having taken dark harrowing twists.

But in each instances of these endings, not to mention other examples in film, tv and games, they are still satisfying endings because we have a very clear and concise understanding of the stakes of the story. We can feel and understand the emotions of the characters involved. We are left feeling saddened, demoralised, maybe even without hope if we don’t know how it ends in the final part, but what we aren’t left with is bewilderment and confusion and endless questions and concerns about what the hell just happened, which was what they deliberately chose to make us feel with Rebirth’s ending.

It’s a baffling creative decision that I believe leaves them backed into a very tight corner in respect to how they are going to have to handle this now for Part 3.

The very fact that the script for Part 3 is still roughly being drafted indicates the potential that they didn’t actually plan this out ahead, and might even be waiting to gage the reactions from the audience before committing to anything for Part 3’s story.

If you ever prioritise puzzle box storytelling over a character driven one, then the answer and payoff to the mysteries you favoured by their very definition have to be satisfying and executed well, otherwise not only have you failed the characters you overlooked in favour of a mystery, you failed the story you tried to needlessly over complicate to stoke interest during a waiting period for the story to be concluded.

Ok that is the last thing I’m going to say on the ending now until I eventually get to it in my playthrough.

All of this is spot on.

 

[r_monk]

Zack’s portion of the story has a lot of interesting ambient dialogue. If I remember correctly, a lot of it pertains to life and death too.

Oh yeah, tons of NPCs talking about regrets and how they could have done things differently. Which is interesting when I think about the NPC dialogue during Cloud and Aerith's dream date. Not too dissimilar, but I want to go back in to compare and contrast...

 

[r_monk]

Honestly the optional argument backfires most times and I don't think they realise it. When asked what Cloud and Aerith got in Rebirth, a lot say: "heavy romantic moments from the last bit of the game" I have yet to be described what these heavy romantic moments are, and while I'm waiting, that optional Cloud and Tifa kiss comes in and blasts ending Cloud and Aerith off as if they were Team Rocket.

They don't talk about the Gongaga almost kiss either because in order to reason it or label it away as 'platonic' or such, they'd have to get past the guard dog, Yuffie.

I really do think the only reason the CT kiss is "optional" is because they decided that part 2 would be too early to alienate that part of the fandom.

 

[faefolk]

I agree with that. But I’m mostly referring to the denial and framing of certain scenes as more romantic than others.

And the fact that some people think Tifa fans should feel like the devs stuck a middle finger to her.

Oh yeah, it's unbelievable! Also they're posting clips from the game saying how romantic they are and like... Cloud is kind of being the worst to Aerith or being completely neutral in them? And they're like 'oh my god he's so romantic, how can Cloti fans deny this?!' and I'm just there like... O_O
It's like if Aerith is being flirty to them it means that Cloud is being romantic? Even though he is extremely romantically unreceptive in 98% of their interactions.

And yeah they shit all over Tifa interactions and literally only ever use the picture of his intense face when he hugs her (apparently proof he was angry about 'having to do it') and the video of him shoving her away when he's literally possessed. Being like 'see Aerith is the only one who can snap him out of it' even though we've literally seen Tifa snap him out of it previously.

 

[GamerSkull]

Oh yeah, it's unbelievable! Also they're posting clips from the game saying how romantic they are and like... Cloud is kind of being the worst to Aerith or being completely neutral in them? And they're like 'oh my god he's so romantic, how can Cloti fans deny this?!' and I'm just there like... O_O
It's like if Aerith is being flirty to them it means that Cloud is being romantic? Even though he is extremely romantically unreceptive in 98% of their interactions.

And yeah they shit all over Tifa interactions and literally only ever use the picture of his intense face when he hugs her (apparently proof he was angry about 'having to do it') and the video of him shoving her away when he's literally possessed. Being like 'see Aerith is the only one who can snap him out of it' even though we've literally seen Tifa snap him out of it previously.

The cope will be unreal when she makes out with Zack in the next part.

But yes, it seems like a bending of context which is just crazy to me.

 

[r_monk]

only ever use the picture of his intense face when he hugs her

I always laugh at this because like..... that's how that boy looks all the time, literally lol.

 

[hytekz]

The weird thing with the optional argument is that they say CA get full non optional moment but after Kalm and there "date" I can't recall a single one on one non optional CA moment until chapter 13 (maybe 10 if you count Aerith's Cosmo Canyon speech)?

 

[liuliuliu]

Talking about cloud taking Aerith for granted….i always feel like he took Tifa and honestly all his friends and family for granted in ACC…
I hope they can remake ACC…I need a scene where Cloud apologizes to his friends and families. That will give me a closure and I probably will never look into the LTD stuff anymore. Honestly the entire Rebirth is so good, plenty moments for CT and also cute interactions for CA, but every time there is a ACC reference I threw up a little. (I’m still questioning the intention of the back to back standing pose with hand holding scene and what the devs try to convey in that scene)