Rin
Pro Adventurer
ACC is an improvement 100% but if I have to sit there giving my brother a 20 min background story to fill in gaps... there's a problem.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
I didn't mind it but I do wish they had a bit more at the end in the way of healing. My interpretation is that Cloud has severe PTSD so his behaviour actually tracks for me. Not being able to save yet another person he loves and being terminally ill himself would absolutely trigger a mental health episode in even a mentally healthy person. But yeah, I wish we got a scene at the end with dialogue between him and his family/friends.
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Yeah they just need to show him happy and show his struggles. We're just kinda thrust into it while everythings already happened, he's already left, his family is already suffering from his absence. We're dropped into the middle of the narrative and forced to find our bearings and go look for extra context. If I didn't have ADHD and an unhealthy obsession with knowing everything about every single piece of media I become invested in, I probably would still be confused about AC 'til this day lmao
Most of my friends didn't even know ACC existed until I thrust it upon them mao
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
I've had similar experiences in my younger years and was very mentally unwell. It bothers me that people say it's selfish. Because when you're in that headspace you are genuinely distancing yourself because you think you're a burden to other people and ruining their lives by being there. So whilst it can look selfish from an outside perspective - it's not at all the way your brain is geared at the time.
I actually think ACC does a pretty amazing job at this. The I'm not fit to help my family, my friends.. no one. was honestly very relatable. Cloud thinks he makes things worse when he tries to help people. Cloud thinks being close to people hurts them and puts them in harm's way. It's not that he is selfish and doesn't cherish them. It's that he is sick and his brain is telling him that everyone else is better off without him.
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Selfish was the wrong word choice on my part, which is my bad. I'm speaking from a writers POV and not necessarily a human lens POV. When I said selfish, I meant it's an internal, character driven plot point and not created from something external. This makes sense bc Clouds plot has always been more about internalized issues, but what ACC and the OG (and now retrilogy) don't have in common is a clear beginning, middle and end.
And as @Eerie stated, the true end of ACC/Clouds story is "The Turks are alright" which is another short story that most people don't have access to.
insanehobbit
Pro Adventurer
ACC is bad/hard to analyze because you basically need to have read CoT to understand where every character's head is at, and the real emotional conclusion is in TKAA and the Reminiscence DVD extra thing. I can't blame anyone for "incorrectly" interpreting the film when you need to have consumed so much supplemental material to make sense of it. The character beats themselves are fine; the execution is hell.
The Cloud/Aerith scenes on the Costa Del Sol beach and the Cosmo Canyon side quest were very sweet. I think one of the great ironies of that relationship is that when Aerith isn't trying to turn something into an overtly romantic moment, they really seem to enjoy each other's company and emotionally support one another. That's the kind of foundation of friendship that could eventually develop into a romance (though unlikely in any universe where Tifa still exists lol), but because Aerith is so often trying to make things romantic (and/or trying to find the Zack in him), Cloud closes himself off, preventing them from even developing a real friendship before she dies.
The Cloud/Aerith scenes on the Costa Del Sol beach and the Cosmo Canyon side quest were very sweet. I think one of the great ironies of that relationship is that when Aerith isn't trying to turn something into an overtly romantic moment, they really seem to enjoy each other's company and emotionally support one another. That's the kind of foundation of friendship that could eventually develop into a romance (though unlikely in any universe where Tifa still exists lol), but because Aerith is so often trying to make things romantic (and/or trying to find the Zack in him), Cloud closes himself off, preventing them from even developing a real friendship before she dies.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
I still haven't done any of the side quests or beat the game yet but I'm really looking forward to them because I think the devs put these in to parallel Remake also, I think getting to pick flowers again with Aerith, help NPCs, and the star gazing quest is supposed to be a nod to their resolution scene I think. This will be my time to relax after beating story.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Kinda bummed the game isn’t gonna have DLC. While I definitely want them to focus on Part 3, a DLC similar to Intermission would make the wait more bearable.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Thanks for clarifying! That makes more sense. I can definitely understand the impulse to use the world selfish haha it would be easier if there was a word that summarised this in a mental health sense. Because I can acknowledge that depression is very inwardly focused - but in an extremely self deprecating way and not a traditional selfishness 'what can benefit me' kind of way. Definitely Clouds who arc is largely about the way he internalises issues in an unhealthy way. (CloudxTherapy pls)
I think ACC is better than AC for making the story feel a bit clearer - but it's definitely not really a stand alone film. You do need the greater context to fully grasp what's happening.
Ooo where do you get that story?
Eerie
Fire and Blood
You can read it here, but also buy it in English I think it's been released.Ooo where do you get that story?
starcape91
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- starcape91
Well, I beat the game finally. After seeing the full ending, and in context, I am not at all convinced that the multiverse is a thing. Right now, I feel like 95% of the screwy stuff is in Cloud's head. We've seen his "headaches" since the very beginning of Remake, during the first bombing mission. We even briefly revisit that moment during "Trial of Cloud" at The Temple of the Ancients. His headaches are fully in play during Aerith's death scene. Aerith is definitely dead, and a part of Cloud does know what happened - the party's reaction is very clear. He's in full on denial, and that is what Sephiroth wants. He wants Cloud to think that he is a puppet with no emotions, so all of the strong emotions are being blocked out.
I don't know why some people are 100% on board with the multiverse stuff. They're saying "Sephiroth lays it all out for us". Uhhhh, why should we believe anything that Sephiroth says directly to Cloud? Cloud fully believes it though. When walking through the Sleeping Forest, Cloud casually tells Barret that he was taken to another world, and that there are apparently several other worlds. Barret is like "Uh huh...…." and doesn't even want to hear about it. Cloud is really close to being all the way gone at this point.
His smile when he sees Aerith sitting next to him after what I believe was the water burial scene is truly a smile of someone who is losing his mind. It's even creepier/sadder when he tells Tifa to come on and he smiles at nothing. All of the sudden he is not at all bothered by Tifa's tears. She's sitting next to Nanaki with her face in her hands and Cloud is up on the hill thinking about the Reunion. In Remake, when Jessie died, he was more disturbed by Tifa crying than Jessie dying, now she is distraught and he doesn't pay her any mind.
I wouldn't be surprised if he largely ignores Tifa, until they make it to the Northern Crater. Once Sephiroth has him in his clutches and gets the black materia, then he sort of throws him away. It's at this point that Cloud will finally realize how he's "failed" Tifa so many times now, and his world will completely crash around him. He'll believe he's a Sephiroth clone and that he was never really Cloud.
I think the rift in the sky might seriously just be Cloud's "world", his mind, cracking, coming to an end, the loss of his ego, etc. I believe that Rebirth is solidifying that Cloud is absolutely the main character. This is his story, and that's why Aerith's death is treated as such. I do think she'll have a role to play within the Lifestream, like Zack, in Part 3, but there was an extremely final feeling to the end of the game - like her (living) chapter is over - and now, Part 3 will be Cloud's (and Tifa's).
I don't know why some people are 100% on board with the multiverse stuff. They're saying "Sephiroth lays it all out for us". Uhhhh, why should we believe anything that Sephiroth says directly to Cloud? Cloud fully believes it though. When walking through the Sleeping Forest, Cloud casually tells Barret that he was taken to another world, and that there are apparently several other worlds. Barret is like "Uh huh...…." and doesn't even want to hear about it. Cloud is really close to being all the way gone at this point.
His smile when he sees Aerith sitting next to him after what I believe was the water burial scene is truly a smile of someone who is losing his mind. It's even creepier/sadder when he tells Tifa to come on and he smiles at nothing. All of the sudden he is not at all bothered by Tifa's tears. She's sitting next to Nanaki with her face in her hands and Cloud is up on the hill thinking about the Reunion. In Remake, when Jessie died, he was more disturbed by Tifa crying than Jessie dying, now she is distraught and he doesn't pay her any mind.
I wouldn't be surprised if he largely ignores Tifa, until they make it to the Northern Crater. Once Sephiroth has him in his clutches and gets the black materia, then he sort of throws him away. It's at this point that Cloud will finally realize how he's "failed" Tifa so many times now, and his world will completely crash around him. He'll believe he's a Sephiroth clone and that he was never really Cloud.
I think the rift in the sky might seriously just be Cloud's "world", his mind, cracking, coming to an end, the loss of his ego, etc. I believe that Rebirth is solidifying that Cloud is absolutely the main character. This is his story, and that's why Aerith's death is treated as such. I do think she'll have a role to play within the Lifestream, like Zack, in Part 3, but there was an extremely final feeling to the end of the game - like her (living) chapter is over - and now, Part 3 will be Cloud's (and Tifa's).
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To add to earlier complaints surrounding the game pretending Aerith and Cloud are special when Aeriths bond with Cloud is arguably one of the worst.
I'm in the temple of the ancients. Aerith gets reunited with Cloud, Tifa, and Barret, who does Aerith immediately run to to touch hands and smile at each other?.....FREAKING TIFA! Who doesn't have a single word to say about the matter? Cloud.
WHY IS THE ENDING ABOUT AERITH AND CLOUD!?
I'm in the temple of the ancients. Aerith gets reunited with Cloud, Tifa, and Barret, who does Aerith immediately run to to touch hands and smile at each other?.....FREAKING TIFA! Who doesn't have a single word to say about the matter? Cloud.
WHY IS THE ENDING ABOUT AERITH AND CLOUD!?
starcape91
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- starcape91
As I sort of hinted at in my lengthy post above, within full context, I feel like the ending is actually truly about Cloud and him losing it.
I think we'll get closure in Part 3 about Aerith's death. I think we'll see the burial scene then. Perhaps when we revisit (and hopefully get to explore) the Forgotten Capital. This is after Cloud regains himself in the Lifestream though, so I think he'll realize before then that Aerith is dead (and I think a part of him already knows this but he's blocking it out/Sephiroth and the JENOVA cells are blocking out his strong emotions) but we, the players will finally get to see it and it'll be a moment of remembering Aerith.
And I think the ending is about Cloud because Cloud is the protagonist and we are supposed to put ourselves in his shoes.
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faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Yeah this was definitely the focus for me too. From the Temple of the Ancients onwards Cloud is acting really OOC and screwed up. I don't agree with your assessment re the multiverse - I think we have to at least have one or two timelines from what we've seen. But I definitely think the focus is supposed to be less on the LTD (which is what everyone insists on focusing on) and more on the fact that Cloud is really off. Even in the bits where he isn't actively possessed I think we're supposed to be disturbed by his character. I think the dream forest sequence confirms this for me in both the OG and Rebirth. Aerith literally tells him (and us) that he isn't okay and isn't himself.
This is where the LTD frustrates me the most tbh. Often I feel like people allow it to overshadow the larger narrative - which is Clouds struggle within himself.
I really, truly enjoyed the end of Rebirth. I loved how it felt disturbing and made me worried for Cloud, because we should feel that way at this point of the story.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
I also like the blurb in story synopsis that says something like the colorful dynamic between the merc and the florist which I think was also supposed to be part of the call back to them spending time together in Remake.
Rin
Pro Adventurer
Tbh I think Tifa might ignore him too. She did in the OG after Aeriths death for a while if I remember correctly, if you try to talk to her it was ".........."
shady
Pro Adventurer
Now a lot of this is an out of the box theory, some of it is cobbled together and I don't quite have all the ends of it tied up, but I thought maybe some people would be interested in reading parts of it and seeing if they could make sense of it themselves
-- HEAVY REBIRTH SPOILERS AHEAD --
I'm going to try and explain Remake vs Rebirth Aerith, how it relates to the LTD and what's happening in terms of "timelines" It's going to be a little long, advanced apologies for not only the long post but if you also think i'm talking nonsense. This does relate to Lifestream White too.
So i think it's established Remake Aerith clearly has an understanding of events that are happening or have already happened in the game, because I think at this point she is already "dead" and part of the Lifestream where she is battling it out with Sephiroth surrounding the fate of the planet and the party. She's just "inhabited" her past self, I think this happens at the point we are first introduced to her in the game and she is staring at the mako coming from the wall in Nibelheim. Sephiroth has followed her because as it's been established in Rebirth, Sephiroth continues to follow Aerith through the lifestream and beyond in order to basically wipe her out. Think the Dream Date where he turns up and says "So this is where you've been hiding" we'll come back to the dream date later.
Now, I think there's no doubt she likes Cloud as she comes to hang out with him throughout Remake, she is a bit playful and flirty with him and obviously that is just Aerith being herself. There are however clear hints throughout Remake that not only does she know of things that are going to happen but she also seems quite supportive of Cloud and Tifa's budding relationship after they have reunited
1. She gives him the flower, knowing what it symbolises
2. Telling Tifa to follow her heart
3. Smiling at the Flower in the bar knowing what it means
4. She asks about Tifa in the game multiple times and Cloud's relation to her
5. When she makes sure Cloud goes after Tifa in Wall Marker, then the wall market scenario with her and Cloud going after Tifa
Possibly even more that I cannot remember right now without combing through all of Remake's moments. This is because I believe that whilst she likes Cloud at this point--because she is her dead self in the Lifestream-- she knows his true heart belongs to Tifa and being as how she already knows what's going to happen, she knows what happens with both of them, and as a good friend to both of them she is being supportive because not only does she know that they want and need each other, but that the fate of the planet rests in them being together.
Let's fast forward to the end of Remake here with Aerith's resolution and the end scene with Sephiroth and defeating the Arbiters of Fate. Aerith's resolution or the famous "Don't fall in love with me, it's not real" line I believe has multiple meanings, for starters I believe she is obviously letting Cloud know that whatever he may come to feel for her, romantically, will not be real because he is not his real self and that his real self is somebody that desires and loves Tifa. It's also her trying to convince herself not to fall for Cloud in order to save herself the heartbreak-- we'll come back to this in a moment. I believe it's also a meta moment, she's also saying it to the players because having experienced the events of the game already she knows what's going to happen to her or knows WHAT has to happen to her. Now at the end point Aerith is in a bind, again, because she knows what's going to happen but she knows that what's going to happen needs to happen in order for her and the planet to eventually win, even if it's means Sephiroth believes he has the upper hand here. I believe he plays a cheap trick in showing Cloud and Aerith the "Destiny comes" moment, which is Zack's final stand and when he convinces the party to defeat the Arbiters of Fate, which allows him to then bypass the fate already set out by the planet to his own benefit, but it also allows Aerith to do the same thing.
Now if we assume the Lifestream is like a river that flows, sometimes branches of a river break off and either end up at a dead end or eventually flowing back into the river it came from. Through either selfishness at the time, pure love, or a reason I cannot fathom yet in a grander plan the first thing Aerith does is alter Zack's fate to where he survives, which creates a branch in the Lifestream where things have changed and in this branch the planet will not survive because in order for the planet to survive Zack's fate has to be his death, because without his death the wider narrative of Cloud and so on doesn't happen, thus the planet will die.
Aerith did this knowing that doing so would make her lose her precious memories, making her white materia become translucent and useless in the process. This is why in Rebirth we suddenly switch to what is now more akin to the OG Aerith, she understands there were things she knew but she doesn't understand them and obviously has no memory of the things to come. Remember I said she was trying to convince herself not to fall for Cloud, that's because her future Lifestream self we played as in Remake knew she was about to lose her memories and likely fall for Cloud all over again, knowing that she'd eventually only get hurt in the process because of her conflicting feelings about Cloud and Zack but also because she knows Cloud won't reciprocate said potential feelings as his true heart belongs to another.
There are examples in the game of what we know is Lifestream Aerith from her death in the future at this point helping the party in the Rebirth. One of the most prominant ones i can think of is showing Tifa her importance in things to come, in terms of Cloud and the planet and protecting her from Sephiroth. In Gongaga it seems like Aerith in the Lifestream and Sephiroth are battling it out to decide Tifa's fate because both of them understand that Tifa's fate is directly related to Cloud's fate and therefore the planets eventual fate. White and Black Whispers. Lifestream White and Lifestream Black.
Back to our now "memoryless" Aerith, if we follow the events of Rebirth then up until she sings NPTK we can see that she does begin to like Cloud but also that she is clearly conflicted over her love for Zack-- at this point obviously her no memories self doesn't remember that she knew of and altered Zack's fate, she doesn't remember Cloud and Tifa's budding relationship, she doesn't remember the "don't fall in love with me" line and she doesn't remember Cloud doesn't reciprocate her potential feelings. She obviously remembers meeting Cloud and so on she just doesn't remember her lifestream memories.
Now we've all seen the lyrics and the song being about Aerith's feelings towards Cloud etc, I don't think that's irrefutable at this point, I do think however it's an unrequited love song because I think she's trying to understand at this point where she stands with Cloud and where she stands with her own feelings, I believe the song is ALSO about Zack but only in reference because her love for Zack originally ties back into her interest in Cloud. Her wish in the song seems to be about spending more time with Cloud, or seeing him again, in order to try and either work out what her feelings are or if it's possible to even change what happens betwen her, Cloud and Zack via fate or destiny. The issue, and the tragedy is, she never gets the time to do this as we know what happens.
Now lets talk about the Dream Date and the Church sequence. It's quite obvious at this point that this is not the Aerith we were just with for the all of Rebirth, this is an Aerith that's more akin to Remake who seems to have knowledge and understand things. This is because this is also Lifestream Aerith who has already been lost to Sephiroth and is in the Lifestream. She pulls Cloud into what she calls her "dream world" in the Japanese script when Cloud asks if they are dead, she basically says "it's a homecoming" or something akin to half way home, meaning they haven't quite returned to the planet aka the Lifestream, but are close to it. A place that Aerith has manipulated where they can hide out. She has done this for 2 reasons.
It's at this point Aerith has her NPTK moment. One here at the Church and one at the beginning of Remake where we first meet her again. Let me explain..
She creates the date and the church scene for 2 reasons, one is to meet Cloud again-- because at this point she is dead and hasn't seen him for an undertermined amount of time-- and get the closure she was unable to get in life because of everything that was happening after the GS moment, she never got the chance to work her feelings out for Cloud, never got to understand his feelings, never got to meet the real him, she is finally able to understand her feelings (Like... but probably not romantic like), she is finally able to know where they both stand with each other (At least I know now, where you and I stand I mean) and she is able to thank Cloud and tell him that what's about to happen isn't his fault.
She also creates it because she knows in order for everything to happen as is fated and as she has planned, she needs to give her memory filled materia to Cloud in order for him to pass it back to the memoryless Aerith that we've been playing the game with this entire time, which he does in the Sleeping Forest I believe. At this point the Rebirth memoryless Aerith who, like the OG Aerith, just wanted to experience life and not die, realises she has to go to Sephiroth and die in order for her to go to the Lifestream and be able to manipulate the events and fate in order to battle against Sephiroth and eventually save the planet.
It's also at the end of the game when she links hands with Cloud (where the music of seeing Aerith for the first time in Remake with that iconic opening scene starts to play) that she disappears and transfers herself back to her old self at the beginning of Remake, which is why she has knowledge of events to come etc. It's also where she meets Cloud and the Player again on Cobblestone streets and wishes to change fate to where maybe things don't have to be this way. I also think in some instances she's hoping Zack will turn up at the street to but yeah.
These are the NPTK moments she sings about, it's about her complex feelings for Cloud, in relation to Zack and her fate which she lives out by creating the dream date and the initial meeting again in a loop hoping things can maybe be different this time. But they can't because she knows her death, and Zacks death, is intrisically linked towards the fate of saving the planet, and until she accepts this fate she will be stuck in this loop. Just like how Zack is trapped in a loop of branching Lifestream paths everytime he makes a decision, every decision creates a new path that will inevitably end in destruction because the planet cannot survive if he lives, this is why he is always confronted by Shinra soldiers, because that's how he was supposed to die, but he's also refusing to meet his fate which means he isn't dying and his branch inevitably hits a dead end, but Aerith is continuously moving him through new branches so he doesn't meet his end. To what end we don't know yet. I don't believe he will accept his death until he reunites with Aerith properly, which is why I think they showed us this so prominently, and I think it showed us why Biggs was able to eventually accept his fate of death and return to the Lifestream.
Now I have more I have to say in terms of the Ending and the LTD going down this path but it's already like 3am here and I fear it's already starting to turn into a rambling mess and that i've contradicted myself because I was writing it down on the fly. If you did manage to read the post then I hope some of it made a little bit of sense to you. Understand it may be the ramblings of a mad man but if I got at least one of you to think hmmm okay interesting then that's cool with me! Haha
In terms of the LTD though, I don't see how they can walk back what was essentially a CT heavy game with a kiss, and what seems to be promising a reunion between Zack and Aerith, particularly at the end with Zack waiting in the church. If they turned P3 into a Cloud and Aerith game i'd be interested to see how they pull it off because they'd have to really take a baseball bat to a few of the characters and the narrative they've built over the past 2 games.
-- HEAVY REBIRTH SPOILERS AHEAD --
I'm going to try and explain Remake vs Rebirth Aerith, how it relates to the LTD and what's happening in terms of "timelines" It's going to be a little long, advanced apologies for not only the long post but if you also think i'm talking nonsense. This does relate to Lifestream White too.
So i think it's established Remake Aerith clearly has an understanding of events that are happening or have already happened in the game, because I think at this point she is already "dead" and part of the Lifestream where she is battling it out with Sephiroth surrounding the fate of the planet and the party. She's just "inhabited" her past self, I think this happens at the point we are first introduced to her in the game and she is staring at the mako coming from the wall in Nibelheim. Sephiroth has followed her because as it's been established in Rebirth, Sephiroth continues to follow Aerith through the lifestream and beyond in order to basically wipe her out. Think the Dream Date where he turns up and says "So this is where you've been hiding" we'll come back to the dream date later.
Now, I think there's no doubt she likes Cloud as she comes to hang out with him throughout Remake, she is a bit playful and flirty with him and obviously that is just Aerith being herself. There are however clear hints throughout Remake that not only does she know of things that are going to happen but she also seems quite supportive of Cloud and Tifa's budding relationship after they have reunited
1. She gives him the flower, knowing what it symbolises
2. Telling Tifa to follow her heart
3. Smiling at the Flower in the bar knowing what it means
4. She asks about Tifa in the game multiple times and Cloud's relation to her
5. When she makes sure Cloud goes after Tifa in Wall Marker, then the wall market scenario with her and Cloud going after Tifa
Possibly even more that I cannot remember right now without combing through all of Remake's moments. This is because I believe that whilst she likes Cloud at this point--because she is her dead self in the Lifestream-- she knows his true heart belongs to Tifa and being as how she already knows what's going to happen, she knows what happens with both of them, and as a good friend to both of them she is being supportive because not only does she know that they want and need each other, but that the fate of the planet rests in them being together.
Let's fast forward to the end of Remake here with Aerith's resolution and the end scene with Sephiroth and defeating the Arbiters of Fate. Aerith's resolution or the famous "Don't fall in love with me, it's not real" line I believe has multiple meanings, for starters I believe she is obviously letting Cloud know that whatever he may come to feel for her, romantically, will not be real because he is not his real self and that his real self is somebody that desires and loves Tifa. It's also her trying to convince herself not to fall for Cloud in order to save herself the heartbreak-- we'll come back to this in a moment. I believe it's also a meta moment, she's also saying it to the players because having experienced the events of the game already she knows what's going to happen to her or knows WHAT has to happen to her. Now at the end point Aerith is in a bind, again, because she knows what's going to happen but she knows that what's going to happen needs to happen in order for her and the planet to eventually win, even if it's means Sephiroth believes he has the upper hand here. I believe he plays a cheap trick in showing Cloud and Aerith the "Destiny comes" moment, which is Zack's final stand and when he convinces the party to defeat the Arbiters of Fate, which allows him to then bypass the fate already set out by the planet to his own benefit, but it also allows Aerith to do the same thing.
Now if we assume the Lifestream is like a river that flows, sometimes branches of a river break off and either end up at a dead end or eventually flowing back into the river it came from. Through either selfishness at the time, pure love, or a reason I cannot fathom yet in a grander plan the first thing Aerith does is alter Zack's fate to where he survives, which creates a branch in the Lifestream where things have changed and in this branch the planet will not survive because in order for the planet to survive Zack's fate has to be his death, because without his death the wider narrative of Cloud and so on doesn't happen, thus the planet will die.
Aerith did this knowing that doing so would make her lose her precious memories, making her white materia become translucent and useless in the process. This is why in Rebirth we suddenly switch to what is now more akin to the OG Aerith, she understands there were things she knew but she doesn't understand them and obviously has no memory of the things to come. Remember I said she was trying to convince herself not to fall for Cloud, that's because her future Lifestream self we played as in Remake knew she was about to lose her memories and likely fall for Cloud all over again, knowing that she'd eventually only get hurt in the process because of her conflicting feelings about Cloud and Zack but also because she knows Cloud won't reciprocate said potential feelings as his true heart belongs to another.
There are examples in the game of what we know is Lifestream Aerith from her death in the future at this point helping the party in the Rebirth. One of the most prominant ones i can think of is showing Tifa her importance in things to come, in terms of Cloud and the planet and protecting her from Sephiroth. In Gongaga it seems like Aerith in the Lifestream and Sephiroth are battling it out to decide Tifa's fate because both of them understand that Tifa's fate is directly related to Cloud's fate and therefore the planets eventual fate. White and Black Whispers. Lifestream White and Lifestream Black.
Back to our now "memoryless" Aerith, if we follow the events of Rebirth then up until she sings NPTK we can see that she does begin to like Cloud but also that she is clearly conflicted over her love for Zack-- at this point obviously her no memories self doesn't remember that she knew of and altered Zack's fate, she doesn't remember Cloud and Tifa's budding relationship, she doesn't remember the "don't fall in love with me" line and she doesn't remember Cloud doesn't reciprocate her potential feelings. She obviously remembers meeting Cloud and so on she just doesn't remember her lifestream memories.
Now we've all seen the lyrics and the song being about Aerith's feelings towards Cloud etc, I don't think that's irrefutable at this point, I do think however it's an unrequited love song because I think she's trying to understand at this point where she stands with Cloud and where she stands with her own feelings, I believe the song is ALSO about Zack but only in reference because her love for Zack originally ties back into her interest in Cloud. Her wish in the song seems to be about spending more time with Cloud, or seeing him again, in order to try and either work out what her feelings are or if it's possible to even change what happens betwen her, Cloud and Zack via fate or destiny. The issue, and the tragedy is, she never gets the time to do this as we know what happens.
Now lets talk about the Dream Date and the Church sequence. It's quite obvious at this point that this is not the Aerith we were just with for the all of Rebirth, this is an Aerith that's more akin to Remake who seems to have knowledge and understand things. This is because this is also Lifestream Aerith who has already been lost to Sephiroth and is in the Lifestream. She pulls Cloud into what she calls her "dream world" in the Japanese script when Cloud asks if they are dead, she basically says "it's a homecoming" or something akin to half way home, meaning they haven't quite returned to the planet aka the Lifestream, but are close to it. A place that Aerith has manipulated where they can hide out. She has done this for 2 reasons.
It's at this point Aerith has her NPTK moment. One here at the Church and one at the beginning of Remake where we first meet her again. Let me explain..
She creates the date and the church scene for 2 reasons, one is to meet Cloud again-- because at this point she is dead and hasn't seen him for an undertermined amount of time-- and get the closure she was unable to get in life because of everything that was happening after the GS moment, she never got the chance to work her feelings out for Cloud, never got to understand his feelings, never got to meet the real him, she is finally able to understand her feelings (Like... but probably not romantic like), she is finally able to know where they both stand with each other (At least I know now, where you and I stand I mean) and she is able to thank Cloud and tell him that what's about to happen isn't his fault.
She also creates it because she knows in order for everything to happen as is fated and as she has planned, she needs to give her memory filled materia to Cloud in order for him to pass it back to the memoryless Aerith that we've been playing the game with this entire time, which he does in the Sleeping Forest I believe. At this point the Rebirth memoryless Aerith who, like the OG Aerith, just wanted to experience life and not die, realises she has to go to Sephiroth and die in order for her to go to the Lifestream and be able to manipulate the events and fate in order to battle against Sephiroth and eventually save the planet.
It's also at the end of the game when she links hands with Cloud (where the music of seeing Aerith for the first time in Remake with that iconic opening scene starts to play) that she disappears and transfers herself back to her old self at the beginning of Remake, which is why she has knowledge of events to come etc. It's also where she meets Cloud and the Player again on Cobblestone streets and wishes to change fate to where maybe things don't have to be this way. I also think in some instances she's hoping Zack will turn up at the street to but yeah.
These are the NPTK moments she sings about, it's about her complex feelings for Cloud, in relation to Zack and her fate which she lives out by creating the dream date and the initial meeting again in a loop hoping things can maybe be different this time. But they can't because she knows her death, and Zacks death, is intrisically linked towards the fate of saving the planet, and until she accepts this fate she will be stuck in this loop. Just like how Zack is trapped in a loop of branching Lifestream paths everytime he makes a decision, every decision creates a new path that will inevitably end in destruction because the planet cannot survive if he lives, this is why he is always confronted by Shinra soldiers, because that's how he was supposed to die, but he's also refusing to meet his fate which means he isn't dying and his branch inevitably hits a dead end, but Aerith is continuously moving him through new branches so he doesn't meet his end. To what end we don't know yet. I don't believe he will accept his death until he reunites with Aerith properly, which is why I think they showed us this so prominently, and I think it showed us why Biggs was able to eventually accept his fate of death and return to the Lifestream.
Now I have more I have to say in terms of the Ending and the LTD going down this path but it's already like 3am here and I fear it's already starting to turn into a rambling mess and that i've contradicted myself because I was writing it down on the fly. If you did manage to read the post then I hope some of it made a little bit of sense to you. Understand it may be the ramblings of a mad man but if I got at least one of you to think hmmm okay interesting then that's cool with me! Haha
In terms of the LTD though, I don't see how they can walk back what was essentially a CT heavy game with a kiss, and what seems to be promising a reunion between Zack and Aerith, particularly at the end with Zack waiting in the church. If they turned P3 into a Cloud and Aerith game i'd be interested to see how they pull it off because they'd have to really take a baseball bat to a few of the characters and the narrative they've built over the past 2 games.
starcape91
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The developers said that the Zack things are to show how the universe of FFVII works. There is also a very interesting NPC conversation you can overhear in Cosmo Canyon. A woman talks about how the Lifestream isn't made up of just memories but also of hopes and dreams, and that it can't differentiate between them. So, I think we're seeing the hopes and dreams of Zack, Aerith, and maybe even partially Cloud since his real self is partially dormant and he has ties to the Lifestream due to his Mako poisoning, Sephiroth and the JENOVA cells (both Sephy and JENOVA are in the Lifestream right now, so they have some control there too)
Just finished chapter 13 and what the fuck am I watching? The most random clusterfuck ever. Have to reiterate, I hate Clerith, what kind of moronic out of place BS is "wait, does Aerith have feelings for Cloud?" "yeah, cause you weren't here"? This is so randomly forced in.
starcape91
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I really think Zack is just super confused. As far as he knows Cloud and Aerith have never met. Cloud is still the young man from Nibelheim that Zack has to constantly protect and take care of. And the way Marlene answers "Yeah, she likes him." is very casual and childlike. I think Zack takes it in stride, like everything.
Rin
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It might! They said they weren't doing DLC for remake and they stopped intermission, so you never know! Hamaguchi said he won't leave us high and dry while we wait, so not sure what that means but we'll see
starcape91
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- starcape91