SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
Yeah, now that she’s no longer with the main party, there is much more room to develop any Zerith they plan to do, which they definitely will.

I kind of feel like they have to, otherwise, what really is the purpose of bringing him back lol? Let’s hope it doesn’t turn into a #justiceforzack situation.

I want to pose a question for curiousity’s sake.

How many non-shippers walked away from OG FF7 understanding the CT was pushed and canon by the end? Is this percentage a large one?

I only ask because I see such a large amount of people that seem to claim otherwise or just think it’s neutral.

I’ll speak for my husband who couldn’t care less about shipping, is a huge fan, and played OG when he was a kid.

His thought is it’s a game where you can pick Cloud’s love interest, but Cloud ends up with Tifa. Nothing more, nothing less lmao.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I want to pose a question for curiousity’s sake.

How many non-shippers walked away from OG FF7 understanding the CT was pushed and canon by the end? Is this percentage a large one?

I only ask because I see such a large amount of people that seem to claim otherwise or just think it’s neutral.
I played the game for the first time in 2001 (I was 17). I finished the game thinking Cloud/Tifa went on to be in a relationship. Seemed pretty simple to me

Yeah, now that she’s no longer with the main party, there is much more room to develop any Zerith they plan to do, which they definitely will.
Right? We'll get potentially get two things we never got in the original. Aerith and Zack will finally have closure around him "not returning," and the dead characters (Aerith and Zack included) helping us in the final battle
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I just have to wonder if I'm legitimately seeing this wrong. Did the devs give CT a kiss for no reason? Is Part 3 really gonna be more about a Clerith reunion?

I feel the LTD is over for me, but when I see some of the takes on Twitter. I start to wonder if maybe my perception is wrong. I'm pretty confident it isn't though. So I'm wondering if others had a similar takeaway for OG FF7 when they first played it.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
Speaking of Zack again. I kind of touched on this earlier, but in the game there’s not much time for Zack and Cloud to have a true reunion. That and no time to see what Cloud thinks of fighting with Zack, or just seeing him alive again.

I wonder if in the next game we’ll similarly fight alongside Aerith and Zack, and what would that mean for Advent Children? It’s kind of hard to see AC remain canon if Cloud is able to not just come to terms with their deaths, but maybe even have proper goodbyes.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Speaking of Zack again. I kind of touched on this earlier, but in the game there’s not much time for Zack and Cloud to have a true reunion. That and no time to see what Cloud thinks of fighting with Zack, or just seeing him alive again.

I wonder if in the next game we’ll similarly fight alongside Aerith and Zack, and what would that mean for Advent Children? It’s kind of hard to see AC remain canon if Cloud is able to not just come to terms with their deaths, but maybe even have proper goodbyes.
I think that's still possible. He can accept their deaths and feel fine, only for it all to return when he is unable to help Denzel. Mental health is not simple. One moment you can be fine, and the next you can regress if something triggers it again.
 

thetriplerhyme

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thetriplerhyme
I kind of feel like they have to, otherwise, what really is the purpose of bringing him back lol? Let’s hope it doesn’t turn into a #justiceforzack situation.

yeaaah exactly those fans who think of that are still shipping googles they think the one Aerith gonna end up with is protagonist ( what a thinking)

Zack Fair is like the 'hero type of character' yet his vibes still rings with Tragedy ~ same with Aerith actually ~ These two characters rings like a one of a kind or special ( Zack as hero and Aerith as last of her kind cetra ) and yet their story is both tragic.

Their story is part of FF7 and what i love bout this story is Nojima wont stick to the 'usual plot line' the made-hero-will-save-the-day-

Cloud and Tifa are like 'normal norms' who continues to fight the antagonist even with no assurance of winning.

I wonder if in the next game we’ll similarly fight alongside Aerith and Zack, and what would that mean for Advent Children?

Some Zerith fans are actually wishing and expecting synergy for Aerith and Zack for part 3 ( must be awesome)
 

thetriplerhyme

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thetriplerhyme
I just have to wonder if I'm legitimately seeing this wrong. Did the devs give CT a kiss for no reason? Is Part 3 really gonna be more about a Clerith reunion?

- its just them twisting words / devs are describing GS date as outside of the story line ~ their carefull on inserting details on GS dates and affinity on that because it may not fit the story itself ( Cloti will be given a kiss but its not part of the story there because they'll supposed to confirm their feelings on HW scene and not on GS dates )

The GS dates are created based on Cloud's interaction with each character and devs hopes everyone will just enjoy the way as it is~


There are also quoting ultimania sayin that Aerith sang song (NPTK) and his partner will accompany him on gondola date. Since this is written in Aerith's profile ( if I'm not mistaken ) they're quoting C/A will be default date

Lmao there's no default date ALL OF THE DATES ARE OUTSIDE OF STORY TELLING

Aerith will sing NPTK in all of the dates and w/c-ever date you choose ( Tifa-Aerith-Yuffie-Barrett-Nanaki -trio boys) will accompany Cloud to Gondola.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
I think that's still possible. He can accept their deaths and feel fine, only for it all to return when he is unable to help Denzel. Mental health is not simple. One moment you can be fine, and the next you can regress if something triggers it again.
I totally get that with mental health, and I forgot the geostigma angle. It’s just kind of an exhausting thought as far as the characters go.

I think it’s more the fault of how much is being fleshed out with the remakes, and the possibilities with the different worlds. It’s a hard pill to swallow that after all this, there’s still AC afterwards. I want to be deluded about it and say it’ll get bypassed.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I totally get that with mental health, and I forgot the geostigma angle. It’s just kind of an exhausting thought as far as the characters go.

I think it’s more the fault of how much is being fleshed out with the remakes, and the possibilities with the different worlds. It’s a hard pill to swallow that after all this, there’s still AC afterwards. I want to be deluded about it and say it’ll get bypassed.
I think it’s fine. Cloud regresses a bit but then is back to normal by the end. It’s just typical sequel stuff of needing some sort of inciting incident. This is actually something that can happen in real life. You’ll have ups and downs.
 

LNK

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AKA
Nate
I totally get that with mental health, and I forgot the geostigma angle. It’s just kind of an exhausting thought as far as the characters go.

I think it’s more the fault of how much is being fleshed out with the remakes, and the possibilities with the different worlds. It’s a hard pill to swallow that after all this, there’s still AC afterwards. I want to be deluded about it and say it’ll get bypassed.
I understand where you're coming from. I'm guessing you've been in the camp that thought the remake trilogy took place after AC or DoC.

As someone who has never not thought the trilogy was a remake, this has never been an issue for me. What the devs put into the first game was all the evidence I needed to know it'd all work out in the end
 

thetriplerhyme

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thetriplerhyme
To put it bluntly, those people are delusional that think that.

btw they're the same people whose angry right now as Kitase confirms we're still following OG and Nojima or is that Nomura? anywayz describing Aerith's death on Cloud's state of mind and now you can possibly conclude where the hate on Shinra Arch x /twitter came from.

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btw just want to share i'd never thought honestly in this fandom i'd see the day that C/A will discredit GS dates itself~ lmao
back in OG xGS date is never our forte~ Tifa's completely hidden and 'interrupted by fireworks' now it doesnt mattter? HAHA
 
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LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
btw they're the same people whose angry right now as Kitase confirms we're still following OG and Nojima or is that Nomura? anywayz describing Aerith's death on Cloud's state of mind and now you can possibly conclude where the hate on Shinra Arch x /twitter came from.
I'd be talking so much shit to those people if I had twitter.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
I understand where you're coming from. I'm guessing you've been in the camp that thought the remake trilogy took place after AC or DoC.

As someone who has never not thought the trilogy was a remake, this has never been an issue for me. What the devs put into the first game was all the evidence I needed to know it'd all work out in the end
I’m not sure I can say I think the remake is after AC. It’s more like I said, a delusional thought because I want a happy ending. Sue me! I’m a disgusting hopeless romantic. I’d even be satisfied with something after AC. Unless the LS sequence/UTH scene knocks me out of socks.

It’s hard for me to theorize about the game because I’m a victim of Kingdom Hearts. I don’t know what tricks Nomura has in his box. So I’m just going to listen to the devs and assume it’s following OG.

I don’t even feel like having Aerith and Zack working in the lifestream is a drastic change. That would just seem to me like something being fleshed out. In AC they are together so in the part 3 maybe it will let us see how that progressed to that point.

Here’s another delusional thought I decided to bet on— the UTH HA will be the scene. No options, that’s just it. Nothing left to the imagination or the godforsaken affection mechanic.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I’m not sure I can say I think the remake is after AC. It’s more like I said, a delusional thought because I want a happy ending. Sue me! I’m a disgusting hopeless romantic. I’d even be satisfied with something after AC. Unless the LS sequence/UTH scene knocks me out of socks.
I get it haha. Don't we get happy endings after ff7, AC and DoC though?

It’s hard for me to theorize about the game because I’m a victim of Kingdom Hearts. I don’t know what tricks Nomura has in his box. So I’m just going to listen to the devs and assume it’s following OG.
Honestly, I think going with what the devs say is the best. They have been consistent this whole time in regards to what they're doing with the trilogy.

I don’t even feel like having Aerith and Zack working in the lifestream is a drastic change. That would just seem to me like something being fleshed out. In AC they are together so in the part 3 maybe it will let us see how that progressed to that point.
Me either. This has always been what I thought was going to happen once she died. FF7 established that characters can still impact the living even after death. The compilation expanded on it a little bit. It only makes sense that the Re trilogy would do it even more.

Here’s another delusional thought I decided to bet on— the UTH HA will be the scene. No options, that’s just it. Nothing left to the imagination or the godforsaken affection mechanic.
I think they might as well do it. If not, heavily imply it. Then in the ending, have epilogues of each character post DoC. In Tifa/Cloud's case, have them still taking care of Denzel and Marlene, and Cloud/Tifa back to sharing a bed
 

Pivi

Rookie Adventurer
Hey, this thread develops wildly fast, I can't keep up. :)

I totally agree but personally can't shake off a nasty suspicion Square Enix is addicted to using Zack as a punching bag at this point.

I am not discounting the possibility that they will use him as a sacrificial lamb to appease hardcore Cleriths. I wish they'd make it clearer so I could cut my losses and move on if need be. Aerith's behavior in Rebirth has not helped.

I started with Crisis Core and tried very hard to like Cloud. Ultimately, he never endeared himself to me. So at this point, my only interest in this trilogy is in seeing what happens to Zack. And I'd prefer them to telegraph ahead of time if they're going to shaft him so I can wash my hands of this, to be very honest.
As for Zack, I feel they could have fleshed him out a lot more in Rebirth. The game is already massive and could have accommodated a few more gameplay sections. A couple of linear dungeons with his very fun combat would not have hurt. As it is, to truly experience Zack's combat you need to go through an endgame vr challenge which is not easy to master on top of learning Zack's playstyle. I feel they cut some gameplay sections from the game and shoved everything else in at the end. So I was definitely disappointed (this after putting him on the cover no less).

He also felt very "thrown to the dogs" in this game which I guess is part of my agitation. I mean it fits his character because that's what happened in CC. But the man needs a break, you know. He has no idea what's happening and is just running with it. Like Aerith can't even deign to talk to him while opening up portals to send him across worlds?

Meanwhile she shows up personally in sector 5 with Cloud to re-enact her first date with Zack. I understand this entire thing was a metaphor but still. This date is interspersed with Zack scenes showing him getting screwed over and over, while she's making merry with Cloud. The church is "their" place now, too? Cloud didn't even know what she was talking about. I was infuriated, I won't lie. Felt like repeated stabs into Zack's heart.

Later, the man acclimates to facing Meteor and Sephiroth Reborn alone very fast and his reward is to land alone in the church with some flower petals. Like, you're just making fun of him at that point while she's holding hands with Cloud against Sephiroth.

Rubbed me very wrong all things said and done. I hope they have something decent planned for him next game and he gets his happy ending with Aerith. Otherwise, I will not easily forget Square's gaslighting with this trilogy.
I do not really get the feeling that Zack'll be thrown to the dogs or he'll be some rebound fodder for Clerith. First of all, Rebirth did not end the way it gives much (or any) possibility to Clerith, and the development of Zack is nicely done in my opinion. I'm pretty sure we'll get some Zerith goodness in part 3, although don't forget, that in the grand scheme, Zack has to be dead too, so they have something sad for us in store.

The only truly wholesome and romantic moment they have is the photo quest in Cosmo Canyon. I don't see it romantic personally, but i agree it can be viewed like it.
Yes, that was the sidequest I actually interpreted as a little bit romantic, although it also gives player action with taking photos of Aerith herself or not. I have not take her picture, but the possibility is there.

Maybe we don't have the same definition of "crush". Reminds me of people in Remake that argue Cloud is falling in love because he's thinking about his mother lesson when he's at Aerith home... but forget that after this scene he's taking his leave never looking back. Good thing for him Aerith followed him in secret lol.
That's why we see things differently I think. Because for me finding someone attractive is not the same thing as having a crush.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I'm using the word "crush" wrongly here. English is not my main language, and what I mostly mean by having a crush, is attracted to someone, which is clearly not the same I guess. Also, I want to emphasize that having a crush in my book is completely different as being in love with someone (which is a much stronger feeling), so sorry for the confusion. :)

This is just splitting hairs, and it ultimately does not matter in the grand scheme of things narratively, but I am going to have to disagree about Cloud having any romantic feelings for Aerith in the ReTrilogy. I could buy the argument in the OG, and even Remake if you squint, but Rebirth has killed that notion for me entirely.

(Honestly, FFX gives you more of an opportunity to have Tidus show explicit romantic interest in Lulu/Rikku than ReTrilogy lets you have Cloud show romantic interest in Aerith. But I do think choosing those options in FFX cheapens Tidus' relationship with Yuna a bit, so I can see why they've removed the choice in Remake/Rebirth).

I have a hard time interpreting anything Cloud does for Aerith in Rebirth as romantic within the context of the entire scene/game. Take the interlocking hands on the GS date -- when I first saw the leak out of context, I thought it could be interpreted as romantic (I mean not more romantic than a kiss obviously, lmao), but within the context of the entire scene, not so much. The date starts with Aerith patting the spot next to her, and Cloud not only chooses not to sit there but actually moves even farther away from where he had originally intended to sit. He is very clearly drawing a line about where his relationship with her stands. Are we supposed to believe he suddenly falls in love with her in the span of 10 minutes after she talks about her Zack? Or is this action not perfectly in line with the actions of someone who has been shown to comfort a friend when she is in need? This is essentially the same beat as Evergreen Park in Remake, Cloud is awkward when Aerith tries to make things intimate, but opens up/comforts her when she gets sad about Zack.

As for the Ch. 14 church scene, the affection-system influenced dialogue option isn't what's important here. That's about whether Cloud wants to spend more time with Aerith -- and of course he does. (Obviously the fact that 'nakama' is even an option should be telling). It's how Cloud reacts after Aerith tells him she likes him (but isn't sure what type of like it is). As always, the moment she makes things romantic, he deflects.

But really the final nail in the coffin is the very end of Rebirth, outside of the Tiny Bronco. It's a nice callback to their first farewell in Remake (but again telling that their dynamic after 24 hrs together vs. a couple of weeks together is the same), but also the most nakama-coded goodbye possible? It's literally 'You take care of Sephiroth, and I'll take care of Meteor. Seeya later, pal.' I mean Orpheus and Eurydice this is not, lol.

I think the ReTrilogy goes out of its way to show that while Cloud loves and cherishes Aerith deeply, his feelings for her are not romantic. The devs are trying to minimize the number of people who will come away from this game viewing this relationship in a romantic light. Obviously, existing CA shippers will have moments they'll enjoy, but I'm talking about new or "neutral" fans.

With Remake, I thought it was pretty clear they were already killing the LTD dead with how many new CT moments they added and how many CA moments were removed (especially ones where Cloud shows a romantic interest in Aerith). That being said, for people who hadn't played the OG, I could see how CA could win some new converts. Ch. 8 and 9 are almost exclusively devoted to their relationship, and there's a natural progression/development to it. They go from strangers to friends, and it's not surprising that people could expect that to grow into something more.

The thing is, that progression entirely stalls in Rebirth. They're pretty much stuck in the same gear the entire game. Their scenes together are either Aerith trying to make things romantic/more intimate (mostly jokingly) while Cloud is uncomfortable/draws a line, or Aerith needing comfort and Cloud being a good friend. Sometimes the venn diagram overlaps like on the Water Tower in Ch. 11 and the Ch. 12 GS date. Compare the Clock Tower/Tunnel in Ch. 2 with the Water Tower in Ch. 11, or the beach in Costa del Sol in Ch. 6 and the Cosmo Canyon speech in Ch. 10; these are essentially the exact same beats, despite dozens of hours of gameplay/story in between.

Which is inevitable because these scenes simply reiterate a dynamic we already know. They do not deepen or transform their relationship, nor do they conclude in a way that is meant to leave the player wanting more. This is not a romance they want you to invest in, which is not to say these scenes are unimportant. They still reveal much about each character as individuals, especially Aerith.

Such is not the case for Cloud and Tifa's relationship. Every major scene they share together ends in an ellipsis. The tension after their fight in Kalm is so thick that the entire party comments on it; their conversation in Junon ends inconclusively with Cloud promising they'll talk it all out another time (and then cut to him doing sit-ups in his own room to prepare); and of course, their conversation/almost kiss in Gongaga is interrupted by Yuffie and Cait Sith. Even after their GS date, they're unable to look each other in the eyes, to say nothing of discussing what it means for them.

Rebirth wants us to get invested in this relationship, wants us to want to see what happens next, as this is the relationship that will be driving the narrative in Part 3. (It also did most of the heavy lifting for at least half of Rebirth itself).

Similarily, Rebirth has been teasing/delaying the inevitable Zerith reunion the entire game. Rebirth!Zack is just so deeply likeable, and his main purpose is trying to save/reunite with Aerith. The game wants you to want him to succeed.

Aerith in the OG has one of the most tragic fates of all time. Not only is her life cut short, but by the end of the game, it's also clear that her love for the protagonist was unrequited in the most spectacular of ways. Not only does she never get a chance to know the real Cloud, but it turns out the real Cloud's entire identity revolves around another woman. She not only loses her life but also "loses" the man.

So it's inevitable that people would be drawn to the idea that Cloud could have ended up with Aerith if she hadn't died, if only so her fate wouldn't be so damn sad.

ReTrilogy (and the Compilation) doesn't change Aerith's fate but it helps us recontextualize her character and her relationships. It's not that her love for Cloud is unrequited. It's that said "love" is actually an emanation of her very requited love for Zack. So requited that he's literally trying to cheat death and traverse across multiple universes to find a way back to her.

As for Cloud, it could not be more obvious how much he loves Tifa and Zack. He'd never pursue a relationship with Aerith in any universe where the two of them exist.
Wow, that was a nice analysis, I have to say I completely agree with all your points there. I think I have stumbled upon one of your essays on tumblr someday, that was a great read too.

There’s just a clear difference with how he is with Tifa compared to everyone else that I can’t ignore.
That is undeniable. I really thought that rebirth will be much more of a love triangle game, but they show it very differently as was with the OG. Cloud's interactions with Tifa is much-much warmer and sweeter then I have anticipated.

The sad thing is in the past I've been blocked by some for acknowledging ZA canon, even though I personally thought SE intended all three pairs to have romantic implications, like even though Aerith has been my favourite from OG, my all time favourite VG character from one of my first games, with a very big personal impact on me, and I liked CA from then, I got blocked for saying ZA was canon and dated in CC.

I don't understand the attacks on Shinra Arch, I hope they know that their content is appreciated and it's not their fault about the SE ninjas and people not being happy because of that.
Extreme shippers can act like idiots unfortunately. I always loved having discussions with open minded individuals who do not share my viewpoint, if we keep the discussion civilized. What I truly hate (from both sides) is the screaming of "IN YOUR FACE CANON, DEAL WITH IT" and the insults.

The false "Cloti bias" perception of TLS is @Ryushikaze 's fault (mostly) for publishing that "Love Triange Debate is Dead" article like, 15 years ago when the CC Ultimania came out lmao.
Haha, I remember that article, I was still quite invested in the compilation at that time. :)

I want to pose a question for curiousity’s sake.

How many non-shippers walked away from OG FF7 understanding the CT was pushed and canon by the end? Is this percentage a large one?

I only ask because I see such a large amount of people that seem to claim otherwise or just think it’s neutral.
When I first played the game as a kid, although I was a Cloud/Tifa player, I never considered myself a shipper, I just happened to like what the game has shown me with them. What made me uneasy was the very last sentence of Cloud of "I think I can meet her there." and how I interpreted Tifa's expression as sadness instead of happiness there. It was strange and I did not understand at all why that scene played out like that if Cloud and Tifa ended up together. So I researched, got involved with the LTD, and the rabbit hole opened up. Now I know that it was a badly translated sentence, but as a kid it was perfectly enough to make me question how I saw the game's story, and it didn't help that there were countless people who actually thought that Cloud does not really love Tifa, his true love is Aerith, and so on. I'm really interested how that would play out, if they actually had translated the last sentence faithfully to what it originally implied in japanese.

I get it haha. Don't we get happy endings after ff7, AC and DoC though?

Honestly, I think going with what the devs say is the best. They have been consistent this whole time in regards to what they're doing with the trilogy.

Me either. This has always been what I thought was going to happen once she died. FF7 established that characters can still impact the living even after death. The compilation expanded on it a little bit. It only makes sense that the Re trilogy would do it even more.

I think they might as well do it. If not, heavily imply it. Then in the ending, have epilogues of each character post DoC. In Tifa/Cloud's case, have them still taking care of Denzel and Marlene, and Cloud/Tifa back to sharing a bed
As I grow older I'm becoming a big softy, and I would really like some heart warming interactions for ending the compilation. Seeing how they can show the love between Tifa and Cloud (and hopefully Aerith and Zack in part 3) now with the re-trilogy, it's a big step back to watch Advent Children and not want some cuddling in the end. As for DoC, it's even less what's shown there, although I have only watched the scenes on youtube, never played the game itself.

I'm totally on board with the epilogues though. I don't think we'll get those, but have some finger-crossing reserved for that too. :)
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
@ Lex: In all fairness to Ryu, if a parsimonious reading of all information available actually indicated Clerith as canon, our dear pedantic friend would like as not break all of his own fingers trying to type "Cloti is canon" in any regard save for dryly sarcastic :monster:

On the subject of humor, I wish I still had my laptop and GIMP software, I have a hilarious vision of editing Cloud and Aerith sprites into a Pokemon daycare with the dialogue for Pokemon that will not breed :trainermon:
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I want to pose a question for curiousity’s sake.

How many non-shippers walked away from OG FF7 understanding the CT was pushed and canon by the end? Is this percentage a large one?

I only ask because I see such a large amount of people that seem to claim otherwise or just think it’s neutral.
A good amount I fthink, that's how I walked away from it and I wasn't a shipper back then. Only became one later when I talked about the game and realised people were for some reason getting upset when I talked about the story as is. The thing they got upset at was me talking about cloud and tifa as though they were an official couple so that moved the focus there untill it was all that was being discussed anymore
 

Hix

Pro Adventurer
You'll all forgive me for being a bit meta first thing in the morning, but if there's one thing that leads me to believe the LTD is actually over (for most people) it's the fact that only one side are actively discussing it with any depth or contextual analysis.

Flipping through that old, yet still remarkably fresh, article by @Ryushikaze had me thinking about how different things are now than then. Back then we had clear divisions between the sides and reasonably well articulated discussions and arguments for both. A neutral commentator may well have found validity to the claim that there was, at least at some stage of FF7, reason to believe both CT and CA were acceptable reads of the story.

The Compilation came along and introduced a lot more nuance, more depth and exposition to the game in general, so obviously the LTD was affected. And by affected, I mean, it started off what would be the beginning of a more defensive foot for Cleriths.

Inconsistencies in their understanding of events, punctuated by Cloud seemingly moving on with Tifa and Aerith the same with Zack - rather than Cloud "meeting her there" and Zack being given the cold shoulder ala Maiden - would start the ball rolling on what would be an avalanche of evidence that CA was not the direction the devs wanted the franchise to head in and, more damningly, never was.

This has led to years of Clerith talking points being almost entirely centred around attacking Tifa and Zack. Rather than be able to celebrate what their ship has, they start from a position where it's already two goals down and needs to make up ground but ultimately never does.

Fast forward to the Trilogy, and now particularly Rebirth, and this is all that appears to me to be left. Rebirth came along and introduced a plethora of issues that keep CA from even getting off the ground. For those who continue to vocally support the ship the vast majority of their discourse is taken over by putting out the fires.

Part 2 has established that Aerith loves Zack yet still. For anyone who had been paying any kind of attention, this much was long since obvious. She asks for him at every occasion, continues to wear pink to fulfil her promise for their next meeting, ties his bow in her hair every morning and more.

In Rebirth though, an erstwhile Aerith manages to stumble across Zack's house almost as soon as the party arrives in Gongaga to ask after him. Is this the action of someone who has moved on? If you thought perhaps so, then she herself confirms to the player and Cloud himself the opposite. When asked she, in full honesty, confesses she still loves Zack. I prefer the "show" approach that the devs employed for this element of her character before, but if not enough people were getting it then the "tell" sledgehammer inevitably swings.

Meanwhile, Cloud himself connects with Tifa on a level that would have been unthinkable at this stage of the game back in OG. The nearly kiss in Gongaga, the actual kiss in the Gold Saucer, the fact the entire party seems to be aware of their feelings for each other - a source of predictable teasing for Yuffie especially - and much more.

That this all happens to a backdrop of Cloud remembering Zack and, pivotally, that Zack loves Aerith, is no coincidence. Cloud's coldness to Aerith isn't some cute shy thing, it's his honour and respect for the man who was both his hero and friend that demands he stay at arms' length. The promise to end ambiguity is being fulfilled.

All those fires and more needed to be put out, but since release it's spread at an increasing rate, with the Ultimania throwing a petrol bomb on it. No Promises to Keep confirmed not once, nor twice, but three times to not be a love ballad about Cloud. Aerith in the Sector 5 Dream Date confirmed not to even be our Aerith at all. The Gold Saucer dates, now seen as separate vehicle for viewing Cloud's interactions with each party member, being the nail in the coffin - Tifa's date is no more "not canon" than any of them and they all, in their own way, stand on their own.

All this and more has led to a scenario in which I don't think your average Clerith has much of, if any, tremendous insight to add the debate. There's exceptions, but by and large the ship is so overburdened with the weight of evidence against it that it can't move, stranded at sea, stuck perennially in the same spot saying the same things.

The lack of engagement from the other side, too busy now putting out fires to start any, has created something of an echochamber here which is unfortunate. I think we'd all value respectful comments to the contrary and, as a neutral ground, the atmosphere would be ideal for it. Unfortunately I just don't think there's much of great worth to add other than perhaps spread FUD that, somehow, in some way, part 3 will change track.

Indeed, that seems to be the entirety of the argument in favour of CA right now - things might change direction in part 3. That's not impossible, nor unthinkable, but it doesn't seem likely if one is to consider the Trilogy as a cohesive whole, a narrative forged as a labour of love and testament to this fantastic franchise. All signs point to a Zerith reunion and a Cloti reinforcement come part 3, the only negative is the wait.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I just have to wonder if I'm legitimately seeing this wrong. Did the devs give CT a kiss for no reason? Is Part 3 really gonna be more about a Clerith reunion?

I feel the LTD is over for me, but when I see some of the takes on Twitter. I start to wonder if maybe my perception is wrong. I'm pretty confident it isn't though. So I'm wondering if others had a similar takeaway for OG FF7 when they first played it.
I just remind myself that there are people who think the world is flat. If I had an existential crisis anytime a large group of people believed something patently absurd I wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I just remind myself that there are people who think the world is flat. If I had an existential crisis anytime a large group of people believed something patently absurd I wouldn't be able to get out of bed in the morning.

It's totally the same approach. We're in conspiracy territories. Spaming coments with the same (already debunked) evidences. Their goal is not to create discussion. They're just here to take space.
 
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Lex

Administrator
You'll all forgive me for being a bit meta first thing in the morning, but if there's one thing that leads me to believe the LTD is actually over (for most people) it's the fact that only one side are actively discussing it with any depth or contextual analysis.

Flipping through that old, yet still remarkably fresh, article by @Ryushikaze had me thinking about how different things are now than then. Back then we had clear divisions between the sides and reasonably well articulated discussions and arguments for both. A neutral commentator may well have found validity to the claim that there was, at least at some stage of FF7, reason to believe both CT and CA were acceptable reads of the story.

The Compilation came along and introduced a lot more nuance, more depth and exposition to the game in general, so obviously the LTD was affected. And by affected, I mean, it started off what would be the beginning of a more defensive foot for Cleriths.

Inconsistencies in their understanding of events, punctuated by Cloud seemingly moving on with Tifa and Aerith the same with Zack - rather than Cloud "meeting her there" and Zack being given the cold shoulder ala Maiden - would start the ball rolling on what would be an avalanche of evidence that CA was not the direction the devs wanted the franchise to head in and, more damningly, never was.

This has led to years of Clerith talking points being almost entirely centred around attacking Tifa and Zack. Rather than be able to celebrate what their ship has, they start from a position where it's already two goals down and needs to make up ground but ultimately never does.

Fast forward to the Trilogy, and now particularly Rebirth, and this is all that appears to me to be left. Rebirth came along and introduced a plethora of issues that keep CA from even getting off the ground. For those who continue to vocally support the ship the vast majority of their discourse is taken over by putting out the fires.

Part 2 has established that Aerith loves Zack yet still. For anyone who had been paying any kind of attention, this much was long since obvious. She asks for him at every occasion, continues to wear pink to fulfil her promise for their next meeting, ties his bow in her hair every morning and more.

In Rebirth though, an erstwhile Aerith manages to stumble across Zack's house almost as soon as the party arrives in Gongaga to ask after him. Is this the action of someone who has moved on? If you thought perhaps so, then she herself confirms to the player and Cloud himself the opposite. When asked she, in full honesty, confesses she still loves Zack. I prefer the "show" approach that the devs employed for this element of her character before, but if not enough people were getting it then the "tell" sledgehammer inevitably swings.

Meanwhile, Cloud himself connects with Tifa on a level that would have been unthinkable at this stage of the game back in OG. The nearly kiss in Gongaga, the actual kiss in the Gold Saucer, the fact the entire party seems to be aware of their feelings for each other - a source of predictable teasing for Yuffie especially - and much more.

That this all happens to a backdrop of Cloud remembering Zack and, pivotally, that Zack loves Aerith, is no coincidence. Cloud's coldness to Aerith isn't some cute shy thing, it's his honour and respect for the man who was both his hero and friend that demands he stay at arms' length. The promise to end ambiguity is being fulfilled.

All those fires and more needed to be put out, but since release it's spread at an increasing rate, with the Ultimania throwing a petrol bomb on it. No Promises to Keep confirmed not once, nor twice, but three times to not be a love ballad about Cloud. Aerith in the Sector 5 Dream Date confirmed not to even be our Aerith at all. The Gold Saucer dates, now seen as separate vehicle for viewing Cloud's interactions with each party member, being the nail in the coffin - Tifa's date is no more "not canon" than any of them and they all, in their own way, stand on their own.

All this and more has led to a scenario in which I don't think your average Clerith has much of, if any, tremendous insight to add the debate. There's exceptions, but by and large the ship is so overburdened with the weight of evidence against it that it can't move, stranded at sea, stuck perennially in the same spot saying the same things.

The lack of engagement from the other side, too busy now putting out fires to start any, has created something of an echochamber here which is unfortunate. I think we'd all value respectful comments to the contrary and, as a neutral ground, the atmosphere would be ideal for it. Unfortunately I just don't think there's much of great worth to add other than perhaps spread FUD that, somehow, in some way, part 3 will change track.

Indeed, that seems to be the entirety of the argument in favour of CA right now - things might change direction in part 3. That's not impossible, nor unthinkable, but it doesn't seem likely if one is to consider the Trilogy as a cohesive whole, a narrative forged as a labour of love and testament to this fantastic franchise. All signs point to a Zerith reunion and a Cloti reinforcement come part 3, the only negative is the wait.
This is a fantastic summary of how the fandom has shifted over time, well said.
 

luminous03

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Play
I just have to wonder if I'm legitimately seeing this wrong. Did the devs give CT a kiss for no reason? Is Part 3 really gonna be more about a Clerith reunion?

I feel the LTD is over for me, but when I see some of the takes on Twitter. I start to wonder if maybe my perception is wrong. I'm pretty confident it isn't though. So I'm wondering if others had a similar takeaway for OG FF7 when they first played it.
No don't ever think like that, it's just they are experiencing five stages of grief and being in complete denial ( and i think they will never reach acceptance).
 
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