SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

I just have to wonder if I'm legitimately seeing this wrong. Did the devs give CT a kiss for no reason? Is Part 3 really gonna be more about a Clerith reunion?

I feel the LTD is over for me, but when I see some of the takes on Twitter. I start to wonder if maybe my perception is wrong. I'm pretty confident it isn't though. So I'm wondering if others had a similar takeaway for OG FF7 when they first played it.

: No I didn't have similar takeaway when I first played it except for thinking CT was romantic at the end but that doesn't make what you experienced wrong.

Okay so when I wrote my blog I usually was told they felt like this by anonymous Clotis and I just told them this but paraphrased
[You shouldn't put too much stock in what other people on Twitter or Tumblr say at all ever. They aren't reliable sources. Twitter is a place where people put their opinions, sure but opinions are just that. You should look at what the game shows you and what the devs and staff have to say, Ultimanias stuff like that.]

The reason you feel gaslighted is probably because you are looking at what other people have to say to see if your interpretation matches in a way. I get that but no one on social media is unbiased and they're just gonna give their perspective. Also because a lot of these takes that get any traction are extreme. Extreme takes are never accurate so they won't align with yours.

But that's exactly why the answer to this question can't come from looking at takes on Twitter but by experiencing the game and seeing the intent of the creators themselves. Everything else is just going to be from people's perspectives. Perspectives that differ based on so many factors. Which you may find some you agree with, but it's not exactly reliable just because they agree. Also from the way I see it the consensus is pretty much that CT is romantic so a take on Twitter should have no affect.
Does that makes sense?

 

[frosty]

I want to pose a question for curiousity’s sake.

How many non-shippers walked away from OG FF7 understanding the CT was pushed and canon by the end? Is this percentage a large one?

I only ask because I see such a large amount of people that seem to claim otherwise or just think it’s neutral.

I don't think this is the right place to ask, as the people who post here are already quite actively attached to the outcome of the LTD and have been fighting deep in the trenches for a long while lol. Even I myself feel like I'm too entrenched in this - born from nostalgia that FFVII is a piece of media that I've interacted with for 10+ years, and hence I'm not "neutral" even though I'll probably have a month more of interest in Rebirth before I move on.

Perhaps the clues lie in character polls where the quiet majority just vote and move on and not engage in debate and argument? A lot of time "Who do you think Cloud loves" ends up with a 60-70% Tifa / 30-40% Aerith split.

From what I gather those who are "neutral" or don't think Cloud had any romantic resolution either lean into the "loves both girls" or feel that Cloud/Tifa were not given a satisfactory romantic resolution because of the lack of outward and obvious trappings of romance - i.e. no I love you / kisses / sex etc. What I hear from them is along the lines of "Cloud at the end of AC has Tifa trapped in some kind of no-mans friendzoneland but doing his housework and raising the kid he brought back"

This might have changed since we got an explicit kiss?

I feel people who are entirely new to the compilation - lean towards Cloud/Tifa. This is from the streamers reactions to Gongaga because it feels like that was the turning point where they started to get invested in the relationship. I remember even seeing a pro-Cloud/Aerith tweet lament that it was harder to find good reactions to Aerith's date because less streamers were actively picking her optional branch to pursue.

The player poll for Rebirth is going to be interesting because the remake one asked the question: Who showed up in the flower garden - and in Remake about 56% got Tifa, and the other 40+ percent Aerith and the rest Barret, but the mechanics were vague at best.

In Rebirth, it's going to show who gamers actively decided to - on behalf of Cloud - pursue as their preferred romantic option, and if IGN's poll before Rebirth was any indication, Tifa's also going to win by a comfortable 70%+ margin

 

[Yoru]

I just have to wonder if I'm legitimately seeing this wrong. Did the devs give CT a kiss for no reason? Is Part 3 really gonna be more about a Clerith reunion?

I feel the LTD is over for me, but when I see some of the takes on Twitter. I start to wonder if maybe my perception is wrong. I'm pretty confident it isn't though. So I'm wondering if others had a similar takeaway for OG FF7 when they first played it.

It wouldn't make any sense and ruin FF7 as a whole. And I'm not even talking from a Cloti perspective.

A Clerith reunion would imply two things :

• You can cheat death in this world.
• Or you choose death to join your loved one.

Two possibilities in total opposition with OG. One telling you that death is not a big deal, deus ex machina can bring your loved one to life. The other that when life has been too hard, suicide is a good option. Again, throwing away the OG message for survivors. When shit happens, you can find a way to step forward. Because there is still people that cared, care or will care for you.

Clerith will say "We can kill someone else, we'll still have loss. You're just aiming at Aerith because she's in the way of your ship". But it's the whole point of the game. Aerith death is important. Because she's the one full of life. She's is the one who loves life. That's why her fate is so impactful. She didn't deserved it. Because yes, life is a bitch sometimes.

 

[Stiggie]

Who do you think Cloud loves" ends up with a 60-70% Tifa / 30-40% Aerith split

I still think that's shockingly high for Clerith, I get that it will never be a 100-0 situation but I feel like where we are now it should be nearer to 90-10.

Clerith will say "We can kill someone else, we'll still have loss. You're just aiming at Aerith because she's in the way of your ship"

What they don't get it's that it's not about someone having to die, but about it having to be impossible to bring someone back. You could kill everyone and it would do nothing to compensate for aerith living because that's not the point

 

[Yoru]

What they don't get it's that it's not about someone having to die, but about it having to be impossible to bring someone back. You could kill everyone and it would do nothing to compensate for aerith living because that's not the point

People tend to forget that she's the only fucking Jedi alive than can oppose the fucking evil Sith Lord of the story. That's why she's the one aimed in the first place. Her existence is a threat. It's not just a free kill. Too bad for him, she's even more powerful in death. A sentence you may have already heard in this Jedi/Sith old story too...

 

[thetriplerhyme]

You'll all forgive me for being a bit meta first thing in the morning, but if there's one thing that leads me to believe the LTD is actually over (for most people) it's the fact that only one side are actively discussing it with any depth or contextual analysis.

Flipping through that old, yet still remarkably fresh, article by @Ryushikaze had me thinking about how different things are now than then. Back then we had clear divisions between the sides and reasonably well articulated discussions and arguments for both. A neutral commentator may well have found validity to the claim that there was, at least at some stage of FF7, reason to believe both CT and CA were acceptable reads of the story.

The Compilation came along and introduced a lot more nuance, more depth and exposition to the game in general, so obviously the LTD was affected. And by affected, I mean, it started off what would be the beginning of a more defensive foot for Cleriths.

Inconsistencies in their understanding of events, punctuated by Cloud seemingly moving on with Tifa and Aerith the same with Zack - rather than Cloud "meeting her there" and Zack being given the cold shoulder ala Maiden - would start the ball rolling on what would be an avalanche of evidence that CA was not the direction the devs wanted the franchise to head in and, more damningly, never was.

This has led to years of Clerith talking points being almost entirely centred around attacking Tifa and Zack. Rather than be able to celebrate what their ship has, they start from a position where it's already two goals down and needs to make up ground but ultimately never does.

Fast forward to the Trilogy, and now particularly Rebirth, and this is all that appears to me to be left. Rebirth came along and introduced a plethora of issues that keep CA from even getting off the ground. For those who continue to vocally support the ship the vast majority of their discourse is taken over by putting out the fires.

Part 2 has established that Aerith loves Zack yet still. For anyone who had been paying any kind of attention, this much was long since obvious. She asks for him at every occasion, continues to wear pink to fulfil her promise for their next meeting, ties his bow in her hair every morning and more.

In Rebirth though, an erstwhile Aerith manages to stumble across Zack's house almost as soon as the party arrives in Gongaga to ask after him. Is this the action of someone who has moved on? If you thought perhaps so, then she herself confirms to the player and Cloud himself the opposite. When asked she, in full honesty, confesses she still loves Zack. I prefer the "show" approach that the devs employed for this element of her character before, but if not enough people were getting it then the "tell" sledgehammer inevitably swings.

Meanwhile, Cloud himself connects with Tifa on a level that would have been unthinkable at this stage of the game back in OG. The nearly kiss in Gongaga, the actual kiss in the Gold Saucer, the fact the entire party seems to be aware of their feelings for each other - a source of predictable teasing for Yuffie especially - and much more.

That this all happens to a backdrop of Cloud remembering Zack and, pivotally, that Zack loves Aerith, is no coincidence. Cloud's coldness to Aerith isn't some cute shy thing, it's his honour and respect for the man who was both his hero and friend that demands he stay at arms' length. The promise to end ambiguity is being fulfilled.

All those fires and more needed to be put out, but since release it's spread at an increasing rate, with the Ultimania throwing a petrol bomb on it. No Promises to Keep confirmed not once, nor twice, but three times to not be a love ballad about Cloud. Aerith in the Sector 5 Dream Date confirmed not to even be our Aerith at all. The Gold Saucer dates, now seen as separate vehicle for viewing Cloud's interactions with each party member, being the nail in the coffin - Tifa's date is no more "not canon" than any of them and they all, in their own way, stand on their own.

All this and more has led to a scenario in which I don't think your average Clerith has much of, if any, tremendous insight to add the debate. There's exceptions, but by and large the ship is so overburdened with the weight of evidence against it that it can't move, stranded at sea, stuck perennially in the same spot saying the same things.

The lack of engagement from the other side, too busy now putting out fires to start any, has created something of an echochamber here which is unfortunate. I think we'd all value respectful comments to the contrary and, as a neutral ground, the atmosphere would be ideal for it. Unfortunately I just don't think there's much of great worth to add other than perhaps spread FUD that, somehow, in some way, part 3 will change track.

Indeed, that seems to be the entirety of the argument in favour of CA right now - things might change direction in part 3. That's not impossible, nor unthinkable, but it doesn't seem likely if one is to consider the Trilogy as a cohesive whole, a narrative forged as a labour of love and testament to this fantastic franchise. All signs point to a Zerith reunion and a Cloti reinforcement come part 3, the only negative is the wait.

summary on how fandom and C/A has shifted over the years~ they can branter all the want they need more than surviving death for their pair to be canon ~

From what I gather those who are "neutral" or don't think Cloud had any romantic resolution either lean into the "loves both girls" or feel that Cloud/Tifa were not given a satisfactory romantic resolution because of the lack of outward and obvious trappings of romance - i.e. no I love you / kisses / sex etc. What I hear from them is along the lines of "Cloud at the end of AC has Tifa trapped in some kind of no-mans friendzoneland but doing his housework and raising the kid he brought back"

They are living together as a couple after FF7 but OTWAS is centered on Tifa's POV hence you can only see her struggles and her sufferings after main story and of course Cloud has to deal with survivor's guilt and grief it on his own. ( the struggles they have overall is more or less 3 weeks including the time Cloud was staying in the church ) it was very shory compared to the happy times he's living with Tifa.

I kinda wished it was descrcibe in Cloud's POV though..

Cloti is a slowburn I have to agree I dont particularly like Case of Tifa 100% ( around 80%) because the story was cut and continued in ACC then turks side story~ In actually TSS Cloud declared there that he and Tifa are like family ~ describing their relationship to a couple~

 

[Yoru]

They are living together as a couple after FF7 but OTWAS is centered on Tifa's POV hence you can only see her struggles and her sufferings after main story and of course Cloud has to deal with survivor's guilt and grief it on his own. ( the struggles they have overall is more or less 3 weeks including the time Cloud was staying in the church ) it was very shory compared to the happy times he's living with Tifa.

I kinda wished it was descrcibe in Cloud's POV though..

Cloti is a slowburn I have to agree I dont particularly like Case of Tifa 100% ( around 80%) because the story was cut and continued in ACC then turks side story~ In actually TSS Cloud declared there that he and Tifa are like family ~ describing their relationship to a couple~

Maybe kind of a hot take, but I think I'm okay with Tifa and Cloud being a couple on their own terms. I think it's good to show that you can love someone and live happy without having to be married with children of their own and rainbows.

 

[Stiggie]

Maybe kind of a hot take, but I think I'm okay with Tifa and Cloud being a couple on their own terms. I think it's good to show that you can love someone and live happy without having to be married with children of their own and rainbows.

I'm fine with it as well, but I still want them married. Not for them, but to shut people up

 

[frosty]

I still think that's shockingly high for Clerith, I get that it will never be a 100-0 situation but I feel like where we are now it should be nearer to 90-10.

I dunno, I thought 70/30 was a pretty clear majority? I'm always pleasantly surprised at how far ahead Tifa is above Aerith. Not because I think someone should "win", but more "phew, i have normal media literacy and comprehension skills - similar to most"

It feels like on twitter or reddit or other public places its more like, 50/50 because every post talking about Cloud/Tifa you have "bUt WhAT aBOuT aERItH" or "AeRitH is BeTTeR"

It doesn't feel 90/10 at all

 

[nars305]

A good amount I fthink, that's how I walked away from it and I wasn't a shipper back then. Only became one later when I talked about the game and realised people were for some reason getting upset when I talked about the story as is. The thing they got upset at was me talking about cloud and tifa as though they were an official couple so that moved the focus there untill it was all that was being discussed anymore

This is exactly what happened for me. I didn’t know about the LTD after Remake or Intergrade. I miss that peace.

Indeed, that seems to be the entirety of the argument in favour of CA right now - things might change direction in part 3. That's not impossible, nor unthinkable, but it doesn't seem likely if one is to consider the Trilogy as a cohesive whole, a narrative forged as a labour of love and testament to this fantastic franchise. All signs point to a Zerith reunion and a Cloti reinforcement come part 3, the only negative is the wait.

I can understand how this place would be considered an echo chamber. I enjoy it here because I personally don’t feel like there’s an argument to be made since it’d be an argument against the narrative in my opinion. I don’t feel like I’m arguing a side. If I see someone shipping Cloud and Aerith, I don’t think that they are wrong. I wholeheartedly believe someone can come to the conclusion that Cloud and Aerith are a thing. For me though, the only thing that can change my mind is Part 3.

I entirely share your sentiment though.

It's totally the same approach. We're in conspiration territories. Spaming coments with the same (already debunked) evidences. Their goal is not to create discussion. They're just here to take space.

When I first discovered the LTD, of course I also saw Cloud and Aerith topics and it was hard to find them compelling because it’d be such strange arguments to me. Like Cloud and Tifa don’t sleep in the same bed, or outfits in other games, etc. I don’t think that’s all of them, it was just a lot. Those kind of arguments I don’t take seriously, it’d be the same for Tifa. If at the end of the game there was a credit showing Tifa and Cloud, it wouldn’t be something in my consideration *of their relationship. I just go off the story itself.

Of course I have interpretations, and the other side as well, and that’s fun. Ultimately, I just go by the novels and games.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

You'll all forgive me for being a bit meta first thing in the morning, but if there's one thing that leads me to believe the LTD is actually over (for most people) it's the fact that only one side are actively discussing it with any depth or contextual analysis.

Flipping through that old, yet still remarkably fresh, article by @Ryushikaze had me thinking about how different things are now than then. Back then we had clear divisions between the sides and reasonably well articulated discussions and arguments for both. A neutral commentator may well have found validity to the claim that there was, at least at some stage of FF7, reason to believe both CT and CA were acceptable reads of the story.

The Compilation came along and introduced a lot more nuance, more depth and exposition to the game in general, so obviously the LTD was affected. And by affected, I mean, it started off what would be the beginning of a more defensive foot for Cleriths.

Inconsistencies in their understanding of events, punctuated by Cloud seemingly moving on with Tifa and Aerith the same with Zack - rather than Cloud "meeting her there" and Zack being given the cold shoulder ala Maiden - would start the ball rolling on what would be an avalanche of evidence that CA was not the direction the devs wanted the franchise to head in and, more damningly, never was.

This has led to years of Clerith talking points being almost entirely centred around attacking Tifa and Zack. Rather than be able to celebrate what their ship has, they start from a position where it's already two goals down and needs to make up ground but ultimately never does.

Fast forward to the Trilogy, and now particularly Rebirth, and this is all that appears to me to be left. Rebirth came along and introduced a plethora of issues that keep CA from even getting off the ground. For those who continue to vocally support the ship the vast majority of their discourse is taken over by putting out the fires.

Part 2 has established that Aerith loves Zack yet still. For anyone who had been paying any kind of attention, this much was long since obvious. She asks for him at every occasion, continues to wear pink to fulfil her promise for their next meeting, ties his bow in her hair every morning and more.

In Rebirth though, an erstwhile Aerith manages to stumble across Zack's house almost as soon as the party arrives in Gongaga to ask after him. Is this the action of someone who has moved on? If you thought perhaps so, then she herself confirms to the player and Cloud himself the opposite. When asked she, in full honesty, confesses she still loves Zack. I prefer the "show" approach that the devs employed for this element of her character before, but if not enough people were getting it then the "tell" sledgehammer inevitably swings.

Meanwhile, Cloud himself connects with Tifa on a level that would have been unthinkable at this stage of the game back in OG. The nearly kiss in Gongaga, the actual kiss in the Gold Saucer, the fact the entire party seems to be aware of their feelings for each other - a source of predictable teasing for Yuffie especially - and much more.

That this all happens to a backdrop of Cloud remembering Zack and, pivotally, that Zack loves Aerith, is no coincidence. Cloud's coldness to Aerith isn't some cute shy thing, it's his honour and respect for the man who was both his hero and friend that demands he stay at arms' length. The promise to end ambiguity is being fulfilled.

All those fires and more needed to be put out, but since release it's spread at an increasing rate, with the Ultimania throwing a petrol bomb on it. No Promises to Keep confirmed not once, nor twice, but three times to not be a love ballad about Cloud. Aerith in the Sector 5 Dream Date confirmed not to even be our Aerith at all. The Gold Saucer dates, now seen as separate vehicle for viewing Cloud's interactions with each party member, being the nail in the coffin - Tifa's date is no more "not canon" than any of them and they all, in their own way, stand on their own.

All this and more has led to a scenario in which I don't think your average Clerith has much of, if any, tremendous insight to add the debate. There's exceptions, but by and large the ship is so overburdened with the weight of evidence against it that it can't move, stranded at sea, stuck perennially in the same spot saying the same things.

The lack of engagement from the other side, too busy now putting out fires to start any, has created something of an echochamber here which is unfortunate. I think we'd all value respectful comments to the contrary and, as a neutral ground, the atmosphere would be ideal for it. Unfortunately I just don't think there's much of great worth to add other than perhaps spread FUD that, somehow, in some way, part 3 will change track.

Indeed, that seems to be the entirety of the argument in favour of CA right now - things might change direction in part 3. That's not impossible, nor unthinkable, but it doesn't seem likely if one is to consider the Trilogy as a cohesive whole, a narrative forged as a labour of love and testament to this fantastic franchise. All signs point to a Zerith reunion and a Cloti reinforcement come part 3, the only negative is the wait.

summary on how fandom and C/A has shifted over the years~ they can branter all the want they need more than surviving death for their pair to be canon ~

From what I gather those who are "neutral" or don't think Cloud had any romantic resolution either lean into the "loves both girls" or feel that Cloud/Tifa were not given a satisfactory romantic resolution because of the lack of outward and obvious trappings of romance - i.e. no I love you / kisses / sex etc. What I hear from them is along the lines of "Cloud at the end of AC has Tifa trapped in some kind of no-mans friendzoneland but doing his housework and raising the kid he brought back"

They are living together as a couple after FF7 but OTWAS is centered on Tifa's POV hence you can only see her struggles and her sufferings after main story and of course Cloud has to deal with survivor's guilt and grief it on his own. ( the struggles they have overall is more or less 3 weeks including the time Cloud was staying in the church ) it was very shory compared to the happy times he's living with Tifa.

I kinda wished it was descrcibe in Cloud's POV though..

Cloti is a slowburn I have to agree I dont particularly like Case of Tifa 100% ( around 80%) because the story was cut and continued in ACC then turks side story~ In actually TSS Cloud declared there that he and Tifa are like family ~ describing their relationship to a couple~

 

[Stiggie]

I dunno, I thought 70/30 was a pretty clear majority? I'm always pleasantly surprised at how far ahead Tifa is above Aerith. Not because I think someone should "win", but more "phew, i have normal media literacy and comprehension skills - similar to most"

It feels like on twitter or reddit or other public places its more like, 50/50 because every post talking about Cloud/Tifa you have "bUt WhAT aBOuT aERItH" or "AeRitH is BeTTeR"

It doesn't feel 90/10 at all

Their popularity as characters should be about 50-50. And I'm glad that tifa is equally or perhaps even more appreciated. But when asked who the main love interrest is that discussion should be over imo, it should be overwhelming

 

[Pivi]

Cloti is a slowburn I have to agree I dont particularly like Case of Tifa 100% ( around 80%) because the story was cut and continued in ACC then turks side story~ In actually TSS Cloud declared there that he and Tifa are like family ~ describing their relationship to a couple~

Just a quick question:
Is this quote from the Turk novel's epilogue section, thus it takes place after ACC? I have to catch up on the novels, and awaiting my copy of the book, so I have not spoiled myself with looking through the unofficial translation. If it takes place after ACC, then it's a nice happy end for them.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Just a quick question:
Is this quote from the Turk novel's epilogue section, thus it takes place after ACC? I have to catch up on the novels, and awaiting my copy of the book, so I have not spoiled myself with looking through the unofficial translation. If it takes place after ACC, then it's a nice happy end for them.

yes FF7: The Kids Are Alright: A Turks Side Story takes place after events of Advent Children Complete ~

 

[nars305]

Just a quick question:
Is this quote from the Turk novel's epilogue section, thus it takes place after ACC? I have to catch up on the novels, and awaiting my copy of the book, so I have not spoiled myself with looking through the unofficial translation. If it takes place after ACC, then it's a nice happy end for them.

It’s more like, the end of the book is kind of going at the same time of AC but the character is not in Edge for the battle. Like at the end you get to Edge after the battle if I am remembering right.

 

[Eerie]

In fact it starts a bit before and ends right at the same place lol.

 

[GamerSkull]

yes FF7: The Kids Are Alright: A Turks Side Story takes place after events of Advent Children Complete ~

It starts off before ACC but ends around the time that Cloud finishes healing Denzel at the church. The epilogue is like… directly after that.

Edit: @Eerie beat me to it.

 

[Pivi]

Thanks for the info, that's a nice official closure for them.

 

[JaeKony]

: No I didn't have similar takeaway when I first played it except for thinking CT was romantic at the end but that doesn't make what you experienced wrong.

Okay so when I wrote my blog I usually was told they felt like this by anonymous Clotis and I just told them this but paraphrased
[You shouldn't put too much stock in what other people on Twitter or Tumblr say at all ever. They aren't reliable sources. Twitter is a place where people put their opinions, sure but opinions are just that. You should look at what the game shows you and what the devs and staff have to say, Ultimanias stuff like that.]

The reason you feel gaslighted is probably because you are looking at what other people have to say to see if your interpretation matches in a way. I get that but no one on social media is unbiased and they're just gonna give their perspective. Also because a lot of these takes that get any traction are extreme. Extreme takes are never accurate so they won't align with yours.

But that's exactly why the answer to this question can't come from looking at takes on Twitter but by experiencing the game and seeing the intent of the creators themselves. Everything else is just going to be from people's perspectives. Perspectives that differ based on so many factors. Which you may find some you agree with, but it's not exactly reliable just because they agree. Also from the way I see it the consensus is pretty much that CT is romantic so a take on Twitter should have no affect.
Does that makes sense?

Couldn’t have put it better myself. Such great advice

 

[Sacky]

Thanks for the info, that's a nice official closure for them.

Count how many times it mentions cloud smiling xd

 

[Ryushikaze]

The false "Cloti bias" perception of TLS is @Ryushikaze 's fault (mostly) for publishing that "Love Triange Debate is Dead" article like, 15 years ago when the CC Ultimania came out lmao. I will reiterate again that the people who truly love FFVII on this website do not particularly care about the LTD when compared to the rest of the lore, and that includes me. If anything I think people are pleased to see canon preserved if only because 30 years of people screaming that none of it is real is satisfying to quash.

14 years as of this January. It went out on my birthday, as I recall.
In my defense, we were already getting accusations of being biased because of other translations that portrayed C/T in a positive light simple because they were accurately translated even before that article. Also I was right.

That and we've always supported balanced takes rather than weirdly cherry-picked developer quotes. There are a few of them that absolutely loathe me specifically because of some Twitter drama when remake leaks were happening, but also because some of the super insane ones find me deeply irritating because I don't let them get away with their bullshit here when they rear their heads in this thread. Time and again they've popped up in here, I've invited them to engage with the actual community, and, shock horror, they don't.

I also ban Cloti's so nobody can say I'm biased

I can, but with regards to otherwise entirely unrelated matters the statute of limitations have not yet expired for. You know the ones. You know, the incident. With the noodles.

@ Lex: In all fairness to Ryu, if a parsimonious reading of all information available actually indicated Clerith as canon, our dear pedantic friend would like as not break all of his own fingers trying to type "Cloti is canon" in any regard save for dryly sarcastic

I am as always devoted to accuracy and correctness first, much to my wife's consternation. As it stands, not only does all information currently point towards the inevitability of C/T, but of Z/A as well, in whatever form that takes.

On the subject of humor, I wish I still had my laptop and GIMP software, I have a hilarious vision of editing Cloud and Aerith sprites into a Pokemon daycare with the dialogue for Pokemon that will not breed

I mean GIMP is free. Alternately, I was never going to be given the time of day by Clerith extremists, so maybe I could make it.

You'll all forgive me for being a bit meta first thing in the morning, but if there's one thing that leads me to believe the LTD is actually over (for most people) it's the fact that only one side are actively discussing it with any depth or contextual analysis.

Flipping through that old, yet still remarkably fresh, article by @Ryushikaze had me thinking about how different things are now than then. Back then we had clear divisions between the sides and reasonably well articulated discussions and arguments for both. A neutral commentator may well have found validity to the claim that there was, at least at some stage of FF7, reason to believe both CT and CA were acceptable reads of the story.

The Compilation came along and introduced a lot more nuance, more depth and exposition to the game in general, so obviously the LTD was affected. And by affected, I mean, it started off what would be the beginning of a more defensive foot for Cleriths.

To be clear, the "then" of when I wrote that article was after the whole compilation (ACC, BC, CC, DoC, the OTWAS books, though not Kids are All right) had dropped.

Inconsistencies in their understanding of events, punctuated by Cloud seemingly moving on with Tifa and Aerith the same with Zack - rather than Cloud "meeting her there" and Zack being given the cold shoulder ala Maiden - would start the ball rolling on what would be an avalanche of evidence that CA was not the direction the devs wanted the franchise to head in and, more damningly, never was.

This has led to years of Clerith talking points being almost entirely centred around attacking Tifa and Zack. Rather than be able to celebrate what their ship has, they start from a position where it's already two goals down and needs to make up ground but ultimately never does.

I think Crisis Core was the one that hurt them the most emotionally. It recontextualized what had until then been C/A moments into Z.A moments Aerith was trying to relive, consciously or not.

Fast forward to the Trilogy, and now particularly Rebirth, and this is all that appears to me to be left. Rebirth came along and introduced a plethora of issues that keep CA from even getting off the ground. For those who continue to vocally support the ship the vast majority of their discourse is taken over by putting out the fires.

Not that it doesn't stop them starting a few ones of their own, what with the whole lying about kissing thing.

Part 2 has established that Aerith loves Zack yet still. For anyone who had been paying any kind of attention, this much was long since obvious. She asks for him at every occasion, continues to wear pink to fulfil her promise for their next meeting, ties his bow in her hair every morning and more.

And just as obviously, it makes clear Zack still loves Aerith, and is not even remotely mad at her for growing attached to Cloud in his absence, as confused as he is about when and how this could have happened.

In Rebirth though, an erstwhile Aerith manages to stumble across Zack's house almost as soon as the party arrives in Gongaga to ask after him. Is this the action of someone who has moved on? If you thought perhaps so, then she herself confirms to the player and Cloud himself the opposite. When asked she, in full honesty, confesses she still loves Zack. I prefer the "show" approach that the devs employed for this element of her character before, but if not enough people were getting it then the "tell" sledgehammer inevitably swings.

Meanwhile, Cloud himself connects with Tifa on a level that would have been unthinkable at this stage of the game back in OG. The nearly kiss in Gongaga, the actual kiss in the Gold Saucer, the fact the entire party seems to be aware of their feelings for each other - a source of predictable teasing for Yuffie especially - and much more.

Note that Yuffie picks up and begins teasing Cloud about Tifa basically from the moment she joins the party.

That this all happens to a backdrop of Cloud remembering Zack and, pivotally, that Zack loves Aerith, is no coincidence. Cloud's coldness to Aerith isn't some cute shy thing, it's his honour and respect for the man who was both his hero and friend that demands he stay at arms' length. The promise to end ambiguity is being fulfilled.

All those fires and more needed to be put out, but since release it's spread at an increasing rate, with the Ultimania throwing a petrol bomb on it. No Promises to Keep confirmed not once, nor twice, but three times to not be a love ballad about Cloud. Aerith in the Sector 5 Dream Date confirmed not to even be our Aerith at all. The Gold Saucer dates, now seen as separate vehicle for viewing Cloud's interactions with each party member, being the nail in the coffin - Tifa's date is no more "not canon" than any of them and they all, in their own way, stand on their own.

Plus the slight differences in how Cloud treats each of the ladies when they are being Rosa are telling both of their personalities and his feelings toward them. He likes all three of them, but only with Tifa is there an energy, an urgency to pulling her into the twirl and dip.

All this and more has led to a scenario in which I don't think your average Clerith has much of, if any, tremendous insight to add the debate. There's exceptions, but by and large the ship is so overburdened with the weight of evidence against it that it can't move, stranded at sea, stuck perennially in the same spot saying the same things.

The lack of engagement from the other side, too busy now putting out fires to start any, has created something of an echochamber here which is unfortunate. I think we'd all value respectful comments to the contrary and, as a neutral ground, the atmosphere would be ideal for it. Unfortunately I just don't think there's much of great worth to add other than perhaps spread FUD that, somehow, in some way, part 3 will change track.

Indeed, that seems to be the entirety of the argument in favour of CA right now - things might change direction in part 3. That's not impossible, nor unthinkable, but it doesn't seem likely if one is to consider the Trilogy as a cohesive whole, a narrative forged as a labour of love and testament to this fantastic franchise. All signs point to a Zerith reunion and a Cloti reinforcement come part 3, the only negative is the wait.

There is no getting off this train we on, and this train ain't changing tracks.

It's totally the same approach. We're in conspiration territories. Spaming coments with the same (already debunked) evidences. Their goal is not to create discussion. They're just here to take space.

The word you were looking for here was conspiracy, not conspiration, but yes, I do agree they are throwing things out in a desperate attempt to confuse matters.

To swing back around to the "kissing is just western fanservice and way too icky for the Japanese" nonsense or whatever the argument was, I now present a page of a teen romance manga written by a Japanese woman for an audience primarily composed of japanese teenage girls and young women. For a tiny bit of context, this is the main heroine out on a date at an amusement park with her boyfriend, they both very much like each other, they have trouble communicating their feelings to each other many times because of this. Literally, because they do not communicate, things do not go well, but then they do communicate and things go better. Sounds a lot like another pairing I know.

In any case, this page is the heroine Sawako and her boyfriend talking about wanting to stay together despite going to college in different cities, etc. and becoming so overcome with emotions that...

They kiss. Mind you, this is not the first kiss they've had in the series, and it is implied they go further later, I just thought it was a good example of "Japan is A-OK with kisses, Y'all" and also a cute little parallel to current discussion topics.

 

[Yoru]

The word you were looking for here was conspiracy, not conspiration, but yes, I do agree they are throwing things out in a desperate attempt to confuse matters.

To swing back around to the "kissing is just western fanservice and way too icky for the Japanese" nonsense or whatever the argument was, I now present a page of a teen romance manga written by a Japanese woman for an audience primarily composed of japanese teenage girls and young women. For a tiny bit of context, this is the main heroine out on a date at an amusement park with her boyfriend, they both very much like each other, they have trouble communicating their feelings to each other many times because of this. Literally, because they do not communicate, things do not go well, but then they do communicate and things go better. Sounds a lot like another pairing I know.

In any case, this page is the heroine Sawako and her boyfriend talking about wanting to stay together despite going to college in different cities, etc. and becoming so overcome with emotions that...

They kiss. Mind you, this is not the first kiss they've had in the series, and it is implied they go further later, I just thought it was a good example of "Japan is A-OK with kisses, Y'all" and also a cute little parallel to current discussion topics.

Thank you for the correction !

And yes... a kiss has been the culmination of any romantic stories in japanese media since... forever ? lmao. It's just pure copium.

Yes, they may be more reserved and avoid to do it in public... but japanese people kiss... and have sex... just you wait...

 

[nars305]

Oh my heart, Kimi Ni Todoke.

I have no idea where that argument came from. I’ve been reading shoujo manga my whole life. The kiss is always the climax to a romance.

 

[GamerSkull]

The word you were looking for here was conspiracy, not conspiration, but yes, I do agree they are throwing things out in a desperate attempt to confuse matters.

To swing back around to the "kissing is just western fanservice and way too icky for the Japanese" nonsense or whatever the argument was, I now present a page of a teen romance manga written by a Japanese woman for an audience primarily composed of japanese teenage girls and young women. For a tiny bit of context, this is the main heroine out on a date at an amusement park with her boyfriend, they both very much like each other, they have trouble communicating their feelings to each other many times because of this. Literally, because they do not communicate, things do not go well, but then they do communicate and things go better. Sounds a lot like another pairing I know.

In any case, this page is the heroine Sawako and her boyfriend talking about wanting to stay together despite going to college in different cities, etc. and becoming so overcome with emotions that...

They kiss. Mind you, this is not the first kiss they've had in the series, and it is implied they go further later, I just thought it was a good example of "Japan is A-OK with kisses, Y'all" and also a cute little parallel to current discussion topics.

I mean, kissing being reserved for prostitutes and not being as romantic as interlocked fingers is simply bizarre. Any neutral onlooker would either be gullible enough to believe it or immediately disregard it.

Assuming kissing in more older times was not seen as intimate in Japan (I dunno if this is true and I expect it would have to be in Ancient Japan) it’s definitely seen as romantic in modern Japan.

We have multiple FF games with explicit romantic kisses, and to say the Cloti kiss in Rebirth is not as romantic would be denying the ones in other games as well. In fact, do Tidus and Yuna ever interlock fingers? I know they hold hands though.

Although, in all honestly, I think the truth is that kisses have more or less always been romantic. It’s PDA that is probably frowned upon.

 

[Yoru]

I mean, kissing being reserved for prostitutes and not being as romantic as interlocked fingers is simply bizarre. Any neutral onlooker would either be gullible enough to believe it or immediately disregard it.

Assuming kissing in more older times was not seen as intimate in Japan (I dunno if this is true and I expect it would have to be in Ancient Japan) it’s definitely seen as romantic in modern Japan.

We have multiple FF games with explicit romantic kisses, and to say the Cloti kiss in Rebirth is not as romantic would be denying the ones in other games as well. In fact, do Tidus and Yuna ever interlock fingers? I know they hold hands though.

Although, in all honestly, I think the truth is that kisses have more or less always been romantic. It’s PDA that is probably frowned upon.

You know what's funny about all that ? It's that CA are digging their own grave ONCE AGAIN. Because yes, kissing in Japan is a pretty big deal. So Cloud doing it is... the most romantic shit ever made lmao. They should stop talking about it.