SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
And the more time goes by, the harder it is for me to give credit to Clerith (not the fans, I'm talking about those who aren't here to debate) because, in my opinion, it's not at all what this FF7 universe is telling us in 2024.

But I love Aerith. And yes I ship her with Zack. Not because I want her out of the way. It's just that's how I've been attached to her with the years.

So yes, we have to disagree but I'm more than happy to have you around to talk about FF7 !
Oh I already agree there. I saw a shift in vision with the how the devs talked about the romance aspect around more than a decade ago. I would say around ACC. I actually don't mind Zerith at all either. I look forward to whatever they do with Aerith in general despite my criticisms. I also think the devs aren't changing course any time soon with their narrative especially now. I'm just always very careful not to say things definitely because we never know what could happen. But basically nothing needs to be proven because the story is already being told. I just think the mysteries left are still going to have us debate a little longer till we get to the end.

But likewise. It's is a pleasure to talk about one of my favorite games of all time with you! ^^
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Speaking of jealous, I've seen discourse where some people interpreted Cloud being jealous of Zack in Gongaga. The interpretation is when Aerith said she maybe liked Zack, Cloud became jealous so that is why he called Zack a loser.
Yet again more abysmal characterisation of Cloud. He is completely deadpan there.

Once again, the LTD isn’t about shipping, it’s about canonicity. The linchpin of Cloud’s personal story arc is the conclusion of the Lifestream sequence which heavily involves his own romantic subplot with Tifa. The fact of the matter is that their shared connection (which has been presented as a romantic connection in multiple sources such as the novels by Nojima) is the key to the conclusion of that arc.
Yep, this isn't just a bunch of internet noise where people are just insisting which ship is better. It's about accepting the story as it's presented.
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
Speaking of jealous, I've seen discourse where some people interpreted Cloud being jealous of Zack in Gongaga. The interpretation is when Aerith said she maybe liked Zack, Cloud became jealous so that is why he called Zack a loser.
Could this be a remnant of the dialogue option in OG and that's what people are thinking of? That basically lets you choose being jealous as an option? Though I will point out the Ultimania for Remake also implies Cloud feels some type of complicated way when imagining Aerith bringing him to a place where she was with another guy before in the park date.

I don't know if I would say jealous outright but maybe he doesn't know what to make of the situation and doesn't know what he should feel about a girl talking about her ex to him. Then he gets mad to find out said ex apparently ghosted her because he is close to her by Gongaga?
I don't know.

I think it might be part of setting up Cloud not knowing how he feels about Zack as this is the main part of the mystery. And maybe setting up the question as well of how does he feel about Aerith and her whole dilemma. Which is pretty heavy when you think about it. He probably doesn't know how to think.
 
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Rin

Pro Adventurer
I also think that what Cloud says about Zack in Gongaga is a normal friend response. You befriend a girl who keeps talking about some dude she's not over, constantly finds ways to bring him up, and then you learn the man "ghosted" her and his parents.... So ya, you call him a loser and tell your friend to move on lmao.

Is it the emotionally mature thing to say and do? No because Cloud isn't emotionally mature but that's what makes his response so realistic.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
So, you guys already handled this pretty dang well, so I'll keep this simple...

You guys really do hate clerith fans.

False :awesomonster: A goodly number of the folk in this thread don't hate anyone at all, just their facetious horse shit. Those of us who do feel real hate, hate the CAltists who shovel said horse shit, not Cleriths.
 

Elkazor

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Cinder Wing
Cloud joined the army to impress Tifa, snapped out of his mako poisioning by just seeing her face, in Rebirth he went back into his catatonic state until he realized Tifa was still alive after the mako pool incident. Only one girl gets a kiss at the GS. Tifa realizes he loves her in the Lifestream, they have sex under the highwind, they live together, sleep in the same bed and raise children while Aerith and Zack are shown to be together in the Lifestream.

How are there no canon couples? And how would it weaken the story to confirm the couples? Romance absolutely can have no place in a story, but when you base the hero's adventure off impressing a girl he is over the moon for, and then he continues the story by her side, well, the romance has its place and it matters.

It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments of the story can work regardless whether or not there are romantic feelings involved with either girl. I say a canon confirmation would weaken the story because that would narrow the interpretations of certain scenes down to only one valid one, and thus there would be less speculation and interpretation to be had about different meanings.
One thing to note is that you mention Tifa and Cloud having sex underneath the Highwind (which only happens in the OG thus far). We'll see how part 3 portrays that scene, but in the OG there were different versions of that scene that played out depending on your points with Tifa throughout the game. One implies there was sex, the other was more ambiguous in what occurred.
Deep emotional bonds aren't inherently romantic, even if they're intimate. Even if Cloud was trying to impress Tifa, it could be read as only platonic to some.

Once again, the LTD isn’t about shipping, it’s about canonicity. The linchpin of Cloud’s personal story arc is the conclusion of the Lifestream sequence which heavily involves his own romantic subplot with Tifa. The fact of the matter is that their shared connection (which has been presented as a romantic connection in multiple sources such as the novels by Nojima) is the key to the conclusion of that arc.

Additionally, the centrality of her perception of him to prove his own existence is in full display from the OG to the Remake - Sephiroth weaponizes this to undo him and so Tifa must remake or resurrect him with this in turn

If LTD is about canonicity, then doesn't that mean that once there is confirmation of canon one way or the other, that this thread is officially closed and everyone packs their bags and goes home?
One reason that I say it would weaken the story if there were confirmation either way is that it would impact the people here who enjoy this debate like you, because then there would be no debate at all. Which begs the question of why you would insist on debating it if it was confirmed canon.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
Yeah I don't find anything wrong with the implication Cloud might be a bit jealous, like LunarTarotGirl said factoring in OG Gongaga, and what Ultimania said with the park thing, but the Gongaga and the date are separate scenes, so while I might say oh Cloud fancies Aerith some and he's a little bit jealous here maybe in Gongaga, the take from extremists he only kisses Tifa because he's jealous is well ... :haunter:
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments of the story can work regardless whether or not there are romantic feelings involved with either girl. I say a canon confirmation would weaken the story because that would narrow the interpretations of certain scenes down to only one valid one, and thus there would be less speculation and interpretation to be had about different meanings.
One thing to note is that you mention Tifa and Cloud having sex underneath the Highwind (which only happens in the OG thus far). We'll see how part 3 portrays that scene, but in the OG there were different versions of that scene that played out depending on your points with Tifa throughout the game. One implies there was sex, the other was more ambiguous in what occurred.
Deep emotional bonds aren't inherently romantic, even if they're intimate. Even if Cloud was trying to impress Tifa, it could be read as only platonic to some.



If LTD is about canonicity, then doesn't that mean that once there is confirmation of canon one way or the other, that this thread is officially closed and everyone packs their bags and goes home?
One reason that I say it would weaken the story if there were confirmation either way is that it would impact the people here who enjoy this debate like you, because then there would be no debate at all. Which begs the question of why you would insist on debating it if it was confirmed canon.

Personally, I do want the LTD to end, regardless of which girl is picked. Debating is all well and good but there does need to be some sort of conclusion. A debate that lasts the end of time is actually not fulfilling at all. Why debate if there is no answer in the first place?

The worst part of it is that it actually promotes more flame wars than it does a healthy discussion. Many of the aforementioned CTs and CAs use bad faith arguments that inevitably piss off the other side. If a lane is picked and decided, one side does lose. But that at least opens it up to be done for good and they can peacefully enjoy their ship in fanon, again regardless of which girl is picked.

Sometimes, people just want closure.

I respect your stance but I actually disagree. And to be honest, I think it's perfectly understandable why you have your stance, it's just not I something want.

As for platonic argument, the issue I have with this is everything that comes after the OG. If Cloud is to live with Tifa in a family unit, with Denzel and Marlene, then the idea that they are platonic kind of makes it hard to swallow. Tifa will never be able to actually move on a find someone else if Cloud's around because she will always think she has a chance with him. And I think we are kidding ourselves if we think Tifa only likes Cloud platonically. It actually kind of muddies their whole dynamic post-AC, in my opinion. It's unreal to think that Cloud would continue to live with her while still being interested in reuniting with Aerith, seems very unfair and also romanticizes the idea that one can never have a fulfilling life with another person if a loved one dies. Which ultimately, I do not think is the message of FF7.

That's just my perspective.
 
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nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments
One reason that I say it would weaken the story if there were confirmation either way is that it would impact the people here who enjoy this debate like you, because then there would be no debate at all. Which begs the question of why you would insist on debating it if it was confirmed canon.
I don’t really think it’s a debate. *There are just people who refuse to accept the narrative.

I have only been aware of the LTD for less than a month. Never played FF7 until remake. I was shocked there was this war going on when there is so much in the game and novels that spell it out about Cloud and Tifa.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
Yeah I don't find anything wrong with the implication Cloud might be a bit jealous, like LunarTarotGirl said factoring in OG Gongaga, and what Ultimania said with the park thing, but the Gongaga and the date are separate scenes, so while I might say oh Cloud fancies Aerith some and he's a little bit jealous here maybe in Gongaga, the take from extremists he only kisses Tifa because he's jealous is well ... :haunter:
Yeah, I definitely think Cloud has a "What? You knew and dated a different SOLDIER guy? What do you mean I'm not special?" type of jealousy whenever Aerith brings Zack up bc he has a massive inferiority complex (which is alluded to by Biggs in Zack's world as well) but to say he only kisses Tifa because he's jealous of Zack is such a strange way of thinking of things. But then again we do call them extremists for a reason, I guess 😭
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
Yeah, I definitely think Cloud has a "What? You knew and dated a different SOLDIER guy? What do you mean I'm not special?" type of jealousy whenever Aerith brings Zack up bc he has a massive inferiority complex (which is alluded to by Biggs in Zack's world as well) but to say he only kisses Tifa because he's jealous of Zack is such a strange way of thinking of things. But then again we do call them extremists for a reason, I guess 😭
What do you mean about not feeling special? Are you saying the jealousy is coming from him wanting to be the only soldier VS a romantic implication?
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think the biggest issue is... the moment anyone says "I actually think it's not up for interpretation, and this is the canon. Here's my evidence" the other side labels them as toxic Clotis/Cleriths.

The thing about the LTD is that it is a debate, and debates require evidence, reason, argumentation, rebuttal. You are, by participating, already claiming that one is canon over the other by default. A "debate" does kind of force you to pick a side after all.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
I don’t really think it’s a debate. *There are just people who refuse to accept the narrative.

I have only been aware of the LTD for less than a month. Never played FF7 until remake. I was shocked there was this war going on when there is so much in the game and novels that spell it out about Cloud and Tifa.
Its interesting you say that. From the streamers I have seen who know nothing of FF7 and started with remake/rebirth only, seem to interpret that CT and ZA is a thing.
 

imach0c0

Pro Adventurer
I think @Rin is saying that Cloud doesn't like to be compared to others. Which Aerith does unintentionally.

It's pretty in line with what we know about Cloud.
Got it, thanks. In Gongaga, I don't think Aerith is comparing Cloud to Zack. She just says maybe she likes him. If Cloud is jealous in this scene, for what reason would he be?
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
What do you mean about not feeling special? Are you saying the jealousy is coming from him wanting to be the only soldier VS a romantic implication?
It's a mixture of both. Growing up, he thought he was better than everyone else. To be a first class SOLDIER you have to be "the best of the best." In his current delusions, he reached that legendary title and it means everything to him even if he hates Shinra now.

For a while, everyone's fawning over him, including Aerith for being a "cool" ex-SOLDIER. But then, as his time with Aerith comes to an end, she brings him to a park where she used to actively hang out with her ex-boyfriend who was also a first class SOLDIER. And thus his illusion of being special is shattered because Aerith has already experienced hanging around "the best of the best". I believe this is why the devs say his feelings are complicated in this moment.

So, let's say he was starting to consider Aerith a real romantic option.... Now all of a sudden she's talking about some other dude who had the same job AND title as him. Of course he's jealous. Suddenly, what he thought was a new and exciting experience for her is actually not new at all. He's being compared to someone else that he doesn't know and his existence isn't "special" but could perhaps even be mundane--which is his greatest fear.
 

Rose Alive

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Always hungry
It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments of the story can work regardless whether or not there are romantic feelings involved with either girl. I say a canon confirmation would weaken the story because that would narrow the interpretations of certain scenes down to only one valid one, and thus there would be less speculation and interpretation to be had about different meanings.
One thing to note is that you mention Tifa and Cloud having sex underneath the Highwind (which only happens in the OG thus far). We'll see how part 3 portrays that scene, but in the OG there were different versions of that scene that played out depending on your points with Tifa throughout the game. One implies there was sex, the other was more ambiguous in what occurred.
Deep emotional bonds aren't inherently romantic, even if they're intimate. Even if Cloud was trying to impress Tifa, it could be read as only platonic to some.
I can't see many of the scenes working if you take away Cloud's feelings for Tifa though, like the Lifestream scene.

And canon won't stop people from interpreting scenes a certain way or discussing scenes. It doesn't weaken, but strengthens. I feel it's important to see what the writer wants us to see in any work even if we don't agree or if we see something differently.

Regarding the Highwind, I can't say what they'll do. I do think that it will be a romantic scene at least.
 

SilverSisu

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Zack bro
If we truly are finally getting canonized pairings i wonder how is SE going to handle upcoming Clerith cultist meltdown?

I think the main reason why this love triangle has been so ambiguous is that SE didn't want to piss off 50% of the fandom because it would be bad for business and affect negatively to sales and bottom line.

I think i noticed someone mentioning devs statements on how they want to remove this ambiguity. Can anyone provide me a link to these statements? I'd like to see them myself. I'm really interested because if that is really happening there is going to be a massive meltdown and shitstorm when part 3 is released.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think the biggest issue is... the moment anyone says "I actually think it's not up for interpretation, and this is the canon. Here's my evidence" the other side labels them as toxic Clotis/Cleriths.

The thing about the LTD is that it is a debate, and debates require evidence, reason, argumentation, rebuttal. You are, by participating, already claiming that one is canon over the other by default. A "debate" does kind of force you to pick a side after all.
I kind of want to add to this.

From my perspective, anyone that is truly neutral would probably not participate in a "debate", aside from perhaps considering it fun. But even in this scenario they would still have to pick a side for debate's sake. Otherwise, what they would be doing is more akin to something that would be seen in the Club threads, as those are more a celebration of the ships.

For example, take the Rebirth spoilers thread. That place is one big debate over what the overall direction of the story is. In going there, you can clearly see that sides have been picked and you don't find much in the way of neutrality.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
If we truly are finally getting canonized pairings i wonder how is SE going to handle upcoming Clerith cultist meltdown?

I think the main reason why this love triangle has been so ambiguous is that SE didn't want to piss off 50% of the fandom because it would be bad for business and affect negatively to sales and bottom line.

I think i noticed someone mentioning devs statements on how they want to remove this ambiguity. Can anyone provide me a link to these statements? I'd like to see them myself. I'm really interested because if that is really happening there is going to be a meltdown like never before when part 3 is released.
I agree. I personally believe the writers have already made a choice... but they've been deliberately silent about it for two reasons.

1. They know about a meltdown.

2. The LTD allows for them to sell more merchandise.

Personally, I think one big meltdown regardless of whether it is Cloti or Clerith is still better than years and years of flame wars that seemingly never end. So it would be in the fandom's best interest for it to end.

If I may be so bold, a part of me blames Square Enix the most for this LTD and not any of the Clotis or Cleriths, extremists or otherwise. It's not even the idea that they want it to be ambiguous, they deliberately seem to be wishy washy about it. Which I think does no favors for this LTD.
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
It's a mixture of both. Growing up, he thought he was better than everyone else. To be a first class SOLDIER you have to be "the best of the best." In his current delusions, he reached that legendary title and it means everything to him even if he hates Shinra now.

For a while, everyone's fawning over him, including Aerith for being a "cool" ex-SOLDIER. But then, as his time with Aerith comes to an end, she brings him to a park where she used to actively hang out with her ex-boyfriend who was also a first class SOLDIER. And thus his illusion of being special is shattered because Aerith has already experienced hanging around "the best of the best". I believe this is why the devs say his feelings are complicated in this moment.

So, let's say he was starting to consider Aerith a real romantic option.... Now all of a sudden she's talking about some other dude who had the same job AND title as him. Of course he's jealous. Suddenly, what he thought was a new and exciting experience for her is actually not new at all. He's being compared to someone else that he doesn't know and his existence isn't "special" but could perhaps even be mundane--which is his greatest fear.
That is exactly my thoughts. Aerith literally was praising him for being a cool SOLDIER in the beginning too. So it likely hurt his ego.

Also Toriyama mentions Cloud blocks out Zack's name as information he doesn't want to hear. And this complicated feeling adds depth to his character. Likely because his subconscious probably doesn't like the conflict of hearing about another SOLDIER and questioning himself and his own specialness. This Zack guy doesn't spark a good feeling but a complicated one so it makes sense that throughout he might feel negatively towards him just in general.

And I don't know if I'd say he is still feeling this way in Gongaga but he probably has not the best impression of this Zack guy till then and now he gets information that makes him think this Zack ghosted Aerith and broke her heart. His protective side would come out and yes call that guy who dared hurt her a loser.

But I also think in his head this guy sparks feelings of inferiority he doesn't like already so when he has the chance to insult him he doesn't feel bad about it. Like oh that guy really isn't so special after all good, screw him.

Until he sees Aerith and Tifa are upset at him for it and he is confused.
Then later he remembers this so called loser really loved Aerith and died horribly. That's probably a lot of weight on him. He probably even feels bad for resenting this guy and badmouthing him in front of her. And on top it telling her he was probably dead so callously. He also thinks she should know. It must be really just a lot to feel at once about a person he hasn't met but is important somehow.

Which is probably why it's on his mind still during the dates. I mean of course it would.

Edit: for clarity
 
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GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I think regardless of what Cloud says in Gongaga, he doesn't believe that anymore.

Hypothetically, if the group went to Nibelheim first and Cloud remembered Zack and then they went to Gongaga and the same events occured, there is no way I see Cloud calling Zack a "loser" at that point. In fact, the poor guy would probably be beside himself worrying how he was gonna break it to the Fair parents... just like he was with Aerith.

On that note, seriously... they need closure. How come nobody thinks of them? C'mon.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
To be clear, I'm not mad if there turns out to be a canon pairing I just wanted to get my thoughts out about it.
Totally understandable.

Another thing is, I genuinely like Zerith. I think Zack has been through enough and he deserves some happiness from beyond the grave too. We know from Advent Children that he is always present by Aerith's side. Once again, it kind of muddies things for him to still be devoted to her as both of them are in the Afterlife/Lifestream only for her to seemingly still be waiting to reunite with Cloud. Why do that to him? Plus, if he is there through Aerith's powers, then it's kinda unfair as she is basically saying "Well, until Cloud gets here, you'll do." Once again, it muddies things and I prefer not to think of the characters all ending up like this and it's unfortunately the only reading I could get from such a scenario.

Once again, this is just my perspective on why I personally believe CT and ZA should be endgame. It's a lot neater from a narrative standpoint, imo.

That's not to say other people's preferences don't matter. I just think... from a narrative standpoint, this is the best way for all the characters to have happy endings. Cuz even if Zack and Aerith are dead, the fact that they are together in this Lifestream heaven thing, is still something that could seem like a happy thing.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
It’s interesting you say that. From the streamers I have seen who know nothing of FF7 and started with remake/rebirth only, seem to interpret that CT and ZA is a thing.
It’s because that’s what Rebirth is doing. I mean I don’t know what to say.

Remake was up in the air, I felt neutral. As a new fan I’ll say it didn’t really seem romance driven. Rebirth is not that way at all.
 
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