SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[SilverSisu]

What's interesting to me is... if this is their mindset, they must have known that giving a Cloti kiss but not a Clerith kiss would hurt them in some way.

You would be surprised if you knew how much Cleriths are defending Cloud and Aerith doing the fingerlock because according to them "that is what romantic couples do and it is more romantic gesture than just a kiss"

 

[imach0c0]

Cloud and Tifa are going to have "action" so i hope Zack and Aerith are going to have much more than just mere words.

They can't just favor Cloti and leave Zerith hanging. Words without actions are empty and meaningless and this would also silence the most annoying Cleriths.

Do you think its too much for part 3 to have a romantic scene for both CT and ZA? Such as a kiss for both?

 

[SilverSisu]

Do you think its too much for part 3 to have a romantic scene for both CT and ZA? Such as a kiss?

No it's not too much. Hey if the devs really wanted to stop being ambiguous then better do it properly.

 

[Someonesbunny]

If LTD is about canonicity, then doesn't that mean that once there is confirmation of canon one way or the other, that this thread is officially closed and everyone packs their bags and goes home?
One reason that I say it would weaken the story if there were confirmation either way is that it would impact the people here who enjoy this debate like you, because then there would be no debate at all. Which begs the question of why you would insist on debating it if it was confirmed canon.

I think you misunderstand: the LTD actually only continues to exist because a certain group refuses to accept that there is a canon despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and this was even all the way back when we were only discussing the OG. Even if you think a person like me seems like a bit of a debate pervert, one thing I can tell you is that it's never the debate itself that gets anyone off - it's the winning.

Debates don't exist to perpetuate themselves, rather, they exist so that there is a definitive answer. Unfortunately, we do need to be working on a fair premise with goalposts that don't move, but so far, the only guarantee we've ever had with the LTD is that there will be bad actors that do nothing but discuss this topic in bad faith.

 

[nars305]

You would be surprised if you knew how much Cleriths are defending Cloud and Aerith doing the fingerlock because according to them "that is what romantic couples do and it is more romantic gesture than just a kiss"

I see you haven’t heard that kissing is reserved for prostitutes.

This is my favorite take so I never pass up the chance to bring it up.

 

[liuliuliu]

If PT3 is CA which means both CT and ZA are dead. SE is going to piss off 2 groups of fans. CT and ZA arenot necessarily overlapped.
I’m not sure how they are going to do the math, but it looks ridiculous to me.

 

[null]

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure how the writers will have time to set it up considering they have A LOT to get through in Part 3.

But I also seem to recall one of the writers (might have been Nojima) say that he did not intend for there to be romantic chemistry between Zack and Cissnei and was surprised when it came off that way. I may be misremembering though.

You mean set up Cissnei as a love interest in part 3? Oh, not a chance. And I can absolutely believe they didn’t mean to depict her that way in the first place.

I guess my point was that the love interest role is like a hatched duckling imprinting on a human. It’s really easy to get the wrong impression, and really hard to shake it once it’s there, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. If the audience has shipping mode activated and fails to engage the media critically, all the character motivations start to filter through that warped lens.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Along with "handholding is more romantic than kissing" and "'thank you' is short for 'I love you,'" as well as my personal favourite: "Holy Palmer's Kiss means Clerith kissed in Remake."

 

[shady]

I'm really sorry, I don't think i'm getting across what I'm trying to say. Let me try this again.
During either Tifa or Aerith's GS date - Cloud mentions about Zack - What I found really odd about this interaction is that Cloud is either on a date with Aerith or Tifa (whoever you had high affinity with) and mentions about 'Aerith's feelings for Zack' according to the Tifa date or if Tifa mentioned Zack during the Aerith date. Because he on a date with one of these girls, why are you bringing up someone else's relationship? I was watching the streamer Rogerbase when he was watching the Tifa GS date and he was yelling at Cloud, 'don't you bring up Aerith ...' It was really funny to watch. But he is right, Cloud you idiot you are on a date with Tifa why are you bringing up Aerith.

So my point is why did the writer decided to add this line of dialogue here on the gondola? Why not add it while they were walking or something? Or do this in another scene? It was just a really odd choice to have it during the GS date and not somewhere different.

My interpretation is thus;

He asks Tifa because they are alone (Tifa asked him to keep the Zack information between themselves) and he just got caught staring at her with a smile on his face, it was a classic case of just changing the subject due to embarassment. He has already ascertained that Aerith might still have feelings for Zack due to her response in Gongaga and he was rather rude towards both Zack and Aerith when he was trying to be supportive. Why do i think he was trying to be supportive and not jealous? Well, look at the very intentional close up of his face, it's a stone cold neutral face with virtually no emotion.. not only that but when he calls Zack a loser he looks to Tifa for reassurance/backup that what he is saying is the right thing to say to support a friend. He obviously comes to the conclusion that he overstepped the mark (more on that with the Aerith date) and you can see the POV camera following Tifa as he claims "another time" obviously to talk to Tifa about this situation later on. Obviously he gets even more of a conclusion in Nibelheim where he remembers not only who Zack is (his friend) but that Zack also was extremely in love with Aerith, so now he's in a positions where he knows the feelings of two of his friends but doesn't know how to approach the subject. Tifa offered to talk and once she says no she hasn't yet he comes to the conclusion Tifa is finding it hard to approach the subject with Aerith because it's a touchy subject due to what he believes to be Aerith's lingering feelings for Zack. Notice the camera is not on Cloud's face this time and his line delivery is pretty neutral, this is because we've already established that Cloud is not "jealous" of the situation and is instead mearly concerned for Aerith. Contrast this moment, for example, with Yuffie telling Cloud that Tifa forgot about him when she came to Midgar, when the camera switches to a close up of Cloud's face as he shows a visible distate for Yuffie's comment because the dev's intention is to show us Cloud's emotions in the moment.

Now lets talk about the Aerith date - I'm not sure if his intention was to bring up talking to Tifa at any point, maybe it wasn't. But notice the two very different situations that bring about the conversation, in the Aerith date this is after she basically confirms to Cloud that her initial draw to Cloud was that she reminded him completely of Zack, and you can tell not only by Cloud's facial expression but by the way Cody delivers the line that he's slightly uncomfortable with the topic because he "remembers" Zack and his feelings for Aerith, as well as what he believes to be Aerith's lingering feelings for Zack. He wants to know if Aerith knows the same thing, but she says she doesn't, and his "Oh.." whilst turning away kind of leads him into a slightly more uncomfortable situation. because she's saying these things to Cloud whilst he has to deal with the knowledge that he believes Zack is dead, and that his best friend was in love with the girl who he's in a rather intimate situation with currently. Notice he doesn't mention Aerith's feelings for Zack because at this point he remembers and has learned from Gongaga, just as he says on the Tifa date he recognises it's a "touchy subject" because of her lingering feelings for Zack and he doesn't want to voice them infront of Aerith incase it upsets her. The two situations mirror each other. In this moment I think Aerith understands or clocks on to Cloud's apprehension and sudden anxiety and that's why she does what she does best and diffuses the situation somewhat by latching onto his arm and asking Cloud if it's okay to just pretend "until the ride is over." Now I know a lot of people will see the handhold as romantic, and if we're being honest, it can have romantic undertones for sure, but if we look at the context of the situation that just happened, Cloud's confused as to why Aerith just latches onto his arm, and understands the whole situation of the "date" just changed after the awkward Zack exchange, Cloud chooses to show us that he has emotionally matured since Gongaga and offers Aerith comfort that quite frankly she seems to seek out in the moment, hence "Until the rides over" and that's how the date ends.

I think the scene was important in both dates because it establishes that both Tifa and Aerith are keeping knowledge from Cloud because of the very complicated nature of the situation between Cloud, Tifa, Aerith and Zack, whether you want to believe this is purely romantic based, or Cloud's false remembering based, well it's up to interpretation, but certainly Tifa and Aerith are talking about a lot of things behind Cloud's back and things we certainly don't see on screen.

Notice also the difference in the climaxes of both dates;
The Kiss happens way after the Zack conversation, infact they talk about themselves first before anybody initiates anything
The Handhold happens almost immediately after the Zack conversation when Aerith latches onto his arm to break the tension of talking about Zack and his connection to Cloud, and how Aerith see's Zack in him. Even though, yes, she suggests that it's okay that Cloud isn't Zack and that she's currently trying to find Cloud.

 

[Eerie]

Typing from my phone so it’s a bit of a hassle sorry.

It is strange cause it gives those dates plot relevance, which is what they say was slightly removed from the story?. It would have been good somewhere else but since it happens after Nibelhiem like directly i guess there wasn't another opportunity for Tifa to ask Aerith. So if they didn't happen then Cloud still doesn't know if Tifa has spoken to Aerith about Zack then?

There’s something this shows and Tifa haters don’t want people to see: it’s that both girls actually lie to Cloud to keep him afloat. For decades they have spewed that Tifa is a liar, still do, and that’s why she’s toxic and Cloud is better with Aerith. If anything that proves that this is mot true at all.

This interpretation is so sad to me lmao. Because in ToTP the fact that Cloud has the same desire to be a SOLDIER as other boys Tifa sees him as a normal boy. When she realizes that she then fell in love with him.

It’s because she loves him for being a normal boy and not some unattainable star that Cloud can accept himself in the LS scene. It’s very important to his self esteem that he doesn’t need to because Tifa loves him as he is.

And it’s a hill I’m ready to die on but the OG already had CT canon. In my first run I thought Aerith was the intended canon love interest but I didn’t like her (nor Cloud) so I didn’t ship them. I thought when she died surely I wouldn’t stop hearing about it but there was nothing. And then Cloud says that only Tifa’s opinion matters - and in the LS he goes on about how he wanted to impress Tifa, that his tenders feelings for her must be hidden from everyone and that his core character was all about her really. The LS sequence is the answer to the LT in game. It was so sweet it made me like Cloud and become a CT shipper.

Even the Ultimanias tell you: well young Cloud represents Cloud’s true feelings, Cloud and Tifa realise their feelings for each other in the Lifestream, confirm them during the night before the battle against Sephiroth, Cloud and Tifa feel they can fight Sephiroth because they have each other.

Nomura himself in 1997 said there is no branching path even if you the player can choose your date, and he casually says the player might feel stuck with Tifa because of the story, clearly pointing out to the canon love interest.

But @LunarTarotGirl is right: it’s around CC and ACC that the devs’ narrative became clearer. And I still think it’s because women pitied Tifa in AC. It made them realise they had to present Cloud’s character and his motivations better, so people can understand the story they’re actually telling. I am telling you Nomura never wants women to pity Tifa ever again. And it’s why the OG resolution - aka the Lifestream scene - is going to be clearer about it being a romantic scene (because yes the first part is romantic and explains why Cloud hid himself to Tifa during the Nibelheim incident).

Life is FFVII’s theme, so they made it more vibrant with death: it is enforced by Aerith’s character; she loves life, can’t really get over Zack’s death, her life is cut short. But with life there is also love, and this side is represented by CT, and is at the heart of Cloud’s character and his interactions with Tifa.

 

[GamerSkull]

You mean set up Cissnei as a love interest in part 3? Oh, not a chance. And I can absolutely believe they didn’t mean to depict her that way in the first place.

I guess my point was that the love interest role is like a hatched duckling imprinting on a human. It’s really easy to get the wrong impression, and really hard to shake it once it’s there, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. If the audience has shipping mode activated and fails to engage the media critically, all the character motivations start to filter through that warped lens.

Agreed, reminds me of Zack x Elmyra. I know it’s probably a joke among most people… but I did see some people actually ship it because of the line; “Without you, I’d fall apart.”

With shipping goggles, anything is possible.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You feel like Servo to me.

I do have a svelte seductive voice.

In a way UTH is a microcosm if this. You can change what the middle shows you, but the end results are always the same.

Yeah, the finale, as it were, is fixed. Romantic feelings are shared without words. We change the words leading up to that, not the feelings.

Fuse them into Nojimura so we can have both.

Too much like an actual surname. Nojura. Has a Kaiju like quality to it.

I'd say you're the sniper, I'm on spotter duty. We agree on the view, take the shot.

Well, to that I say Blam.

Tis easier to fool folk than to make them admit they've been fooled, even when the one who fooled them is themselves.

Especially then.

Ahhh of course, so nanoseconds are too long then.

It's technically a negative amount of time.

Time is an illusion, after all. Once you realize this, it's easy to see that Tifa is Cloud's past. And present. And future. Tifa is always.

I mean she's literally the woman of his past present and future.

I do so admit, lemme just hop over to 2fort and grab my Degreaser and Brigade Helm.

Do a spy check or two while you're over there. Just good business sense.

The household has been informed of my intentions.

Excellent.

That sounds awful in a wonderful way indeed.

Also Imagine Sonic having to deal with Dialup.

He was useful for waste disposal But yeah Eat-Man remains top dog in this eating contest.

Out of curiosity, did you ever see the show Mighty Orbots? It has another character who had the power "eat anything" but he was literally a walking power plant and converted everything he ate into energy for the super robot he was a part of.

Your judgement is usually sound

I try.

Gotta protect that precious grain. Also I want one of them to be chubby with an unlikely ginger patch on its head, and Cloud to name it "Bro"

My brain short circuited on the reference because it's stuck on Barret originally being called Bro and him getting very confused whenever someone calls for the cat and not knowing why.

Nice, that's a difficult technique for most. I'm still trying to figure out how I accomplish my best voice trick, which is voicing a character and his clone-turned-intelligent sword speaking in unison. People at the table flinch, it's great.

Is it basically an echo effect you're doing?

I've had cats like that. And a dachshund, oddly

Some of the little dogs just complete lack any and all fear.

I refuse to embrace the use of literally to mean figuratively. I'm a crotchety old man now and I will die on this hill forever. So again, I agree, I just wanna encourage folks to be clear with how they use all the words.

I am also in favor of Literally not being used simply for emphasis but instead for cases where it's use is warranted.

I wish Cloud and Tifa were training that kid. It's a dangerous world out there after all. Plus if he's trained world's best swordsman Cloud and world's best martial artist Tifa may end up fighting a bit like Zack, that'd be nice.

It'd be cool to see a compilation title set like 12-15 years down the line and it's Denzel and Marlene going adventuring while the old folks stay home. Yuffie is the grizzled veteran of their group, at least until Red and Vincent join back up.

See, it's fucked up no matter how you slice it. I could absolutely see two "orphanages" that really exist for gang war recruiting or out fights in this game world, maybe in Sector 5. But not run by Tifa or Cloud. Them I see rescuing fuckin' orphans and killing the proprietors.

Yeah it was an absurd notion from the start, and the only reason is came about was people insisting Cloud and Tifa had nothing to do with each other.

I still have a hard time believing that mess of claims even happened. Just, ffs why?

Some people will absolutely just fucking lie to win, especially if they think it's "the right thing to do."

It doesn't mean what I want it to mean?! How can this be?! It must be lies you filthy Cloti heretic! BURN THE HERETIC IN AERITH'S NAME!!!!!

That about right?

Close. It misses the fact that they didn't stop using the translations from before he became a heretic. Those were still trustworhy. Just anything that was even remotely C/T was dismissed.

That's fucked up, Hito worked hard on that shit. People shouldn't fuck with anyone's work of course, but seriously back off Hito ya dicks.

Hito had similar words for them, yes.

Ahhh yes, the old "let's hope no one understands how Japanese works" defense.

That seems to be going around again, what with making shit up about japanese romances.
I seriously have never seen the argument that holding hands was more intimate than a kiss before... except of course in gag comics where it's the height of lewdness for a succubus, but that's neither here nor there.

Looking forward to seeing the new SSL24.

I'll start grabbing quotes over the next little bit.

I never could conceive the sassy slum girl being made out this way. Though to be fair, that's not too different from many actual saints.

That her fans paint her like that has always boggled me. Aerith is not worldly, but she's far from naïve about the shit that goes on in the slums in particular.

Vague and easily seen as preconceived and self-serving.



There is that too.

Long and the short of it, Reeve just explicitly has no gift of prophecy.

When Cloud holds Aerith's hand, is that Cloud just being a good friend and comforting Aerith in that moment? Or was Cloud mutually responding to Aerith's romantic feelings?

He is trying to comfort her. Right before he does it she asks "Just for now, let me have this, just until the ride ends" I am paraphrasing here, but she specifically asks him a favor there.

New claim: Tifa wasn't as into Cloud in Rebirth as she was in OG.........

Even setting this aside that this is not true... so what? The question at hand is who does Cloud want to be with romantically. That's still Tifa.

You guys really do hate clerith fans.

Not true. Many of the people who get hate here are Cleriths, but the hate is because of their extremely disingenuous manner of debate.

No we hate liars, people refusing to aknowlege official materials and more or less, people not respecting the story of the FF7 Compilation.

Clerith are more than welcome. Ship is something for fun. Good for them if they find Aerith and Cloud looking good together. Nothing wrong with that.

What's wrong is gaslighting others that disagree with this ship being canon when the story ends.

And lying about evidence, language, cultures, etc.

from what I've seen on twitter and reddit some zerith and cloti fans do the same. wouldn't you agree?

Fuck them too, then.

As a Clerith fan, I find this false. You are kind of putting all fans of clerith into this toxic box. Really the game presents that Cloud is too young and inexperience to pursue anything. But by Advent Children we know he is living with Tifa (I think Barret lives there too time to time) and has adopted a family.

Editing for misspellings.

As has been mentioned, much of this is in response to current Clerith talking points, like the "Cloud kisses Tifa out of petty jealousy because Aerith likes Zack" and "Only prostitutes are kissed in Japan/ Japanese media." One of which is bizarre and nonsensical and the other is misogynistic and racist.

I'm really sorry, I don't think i'm getting across what I'm trying to say. Let me try this again.
During either Tifa or Aerith's GS date - Cloud mentions about Zack - What I found really odd about this interaction is that Cloud is either on a date with Aerith or Tifa (whoever you had high affinity with) and mentions about 'Aerith's feelings for Zack' according to the Tifa date or if Tifa mentioned Zack during the Aerith date. Because he on a date with one of these girls, why are you bringing up someone else's relationship? I was watching the streamer Rogerbase when he was watching the Tifa GS date and he was yelling at Cloud, 'don't you bring up Aerith ...' It was really funny to watch. But he is right, Cloud you idiot you are on a date with Tifa why are you bringing up Aerith.

So my point is why did the writer decided to add this line of dialogue here on the gondola? Why not add it while they were walking or something? Or do this in another scene? It was just a really odd choice to have it during the GS date and not somewhere different.

So Zack actually comes up on three of the six dates- Yuffie brings him up too- because Zack is a big deal, but there's an in character reason as well for Cloud to bring it up- Zack's death and Aerith's reaction is waying heavily on him.

Zack was his best friend. He now remembers Zack's existence and that Zack was super serious about Aerith and he might seriously regret calling him a loser. He wants Aerith, also his good friend, to know that he didn't ghost her, he died and that's why he didn't come back. He's wrong about the where though not about the why on that one. That's why he brings it up in Aerith's date. He wants to do right by the both of them.

In the Tifa date, there are many reasons to bring it up. One, it's still weighting on him for all the reasons I spoke about above, but also he might also be worried about himself dying with his own feelings being unsaid, so he brings Zack up as a way of segueing into his own feelings. It doesn't come out quite right because Cloud is a lovably awkward dork, but he and Tifa manage to reach a consensus here as he reassures her she's not moving to fast, that they're on the same page, and he smooches her. All the the dates are a step removed from being "the canon date" but they're all in character, if that makes sense.

There’s something this shows and Tifa haters don’t want people to see: it’s that both girls actually lie to Cloud to keep him afloat. For decades they have spewed that Tifa is a liar, still do, and that’s why she’s toxic and Cloud is better with Aerith. If anything that proves that this is mot true at all.

She's not even lying, except by omission. And yes, it's entirely to keep Cloud's psyche intact and Aerith and the rest of the gang are going along with it because they are all worried about old chocobo head.

I also want to address another thing that popped up earlier, and that's the idea that Cloud is eliding Zack from his memory so he can feel special, and that's not it. Cloud is trying to live on for Zack and honor his memory, but his mind is so fucked up that what he manages to cobble together is a house of cards heavily built from bits of Zack. He doesn't remember Zack at first because his subconscious won't let him remember Zack because Remembering Zack is both way too painful and might make his mind crack. Cloud doesn't want to forget Zack, he's mad at himself for forgetting Zack, for example. His mind just wouldn't let him remember until he had enough of his own mind built back up.

It is fascinating that he remembers sooner in Rebirth than he does in the OG, though.

 

[A-to-Z]

Narratively speaking endgame CA fundamentally can’t happen because the ending of OG is CT (denying this is denying the relevant romantic implications of LS and HW scene; both low affection and high affection is still romantic) and if you deny endgame CT from OG, then that would have negative implications on Cloud’s character in ACC, which I’m sure is against devs’ intentions. Making headcanons or characterizing Cloud under the assumption that he doesn’t love Tifa or is not in a relationship with her is a misrepresentation of him. You’re free to do so, but it would be inaccurate.

Ambiguity on romantic ZA is possible, but for me it would be pointless and unlikely, because to me, in Rebirth, nothing about the set up of their reunion is subtle or romantically ambiguous. Even before the Retrilogy, in ACC the symbolism of ZA reuniting was significant enough for Cloud to acknowledge it himself. Zack and Aerith being portrayed in one frame was enough to show where Zack belongs, (similar to CT) and no, he’s not written to belong with someone who friendzones him; and Aerith’s last scene in the entire compilation would not be together with someone who she doesn’t love anymore, and I have no choice to perceive them being together as anything else but romantic because unlike CT who have a history of friendship before their romance, ZA has never been portrayed as just friends.

Even Aerith’s initial attraction to Cloud is proof of the severity of her lasting feelings for Zack. In ACC The devs made a deliberate choice that it was important to show Zack and Aerith together rather than apart, including adding two shots that symbolized them being reunited (sword in the church, flowers on his grave) That should tell me everything I need to know, because adding this visual symbolism about ZA being together again was given more relevance and was a priority above confirming CA’s mutual feelings in that film. They had an opportunity to make CA more explicitly romantic, but instead they made Zack be with Aerith in the afterlife, and even flat out says Cloud doesn’t have a place with them. If CA were the intended pair, to be perceived as star-crossed lovers after watching this, then you wouldn’t make the first love of the girl say this to the guy who’s supposedly her true love. ZA were separated as lovers, and thus they will reunite with romantic implications as well. People who think otherwise discredits their already established relationship. You can argue that they were not upfront about the nature of ZA in ACC (whether romantic or platonic) but inserting a friendzoning of Zack by Aerith after they reunite is more headcanon than believing they would resume their relationship if given the chance to (supported by events in Rebirth). The ambiguity of romance in ACC is the exact same criticism that’s said about CT, and that is exactly why I expect Zack and Aerith to kiss in part 3.

No offense to CA or its fans but Aerith picking Cloud who refused to sit close to her on the date that supposedly favors her over Zack who’s always been shown to be in love with her, the one taught her what love is, the one who made her write 89 letters in four years during his absence, will always be unconvincing. I can acknowledge that Aerith has grown feelings for Cloud, but I’ve personally never considered CA to be a hindrance to endgame ZA. Also CA becoming endgame not only suggests a retcon of OG’s ending and ACC’s ending, it also undermines Tifa and Zack’s importance to the story, this is implying Cloud and Aerith is above them (you can have your favorites but the main 5 who are the core of the ff7 compilation were always Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth and Zack, Cloud is the MC but T, A, S and Z all hold equal importance, hence the official art of Rebirth, showing said characters).

 

[Sacky]

I don’t really think it’s a debate. *There are just people who refuse to accept the narrative.

I have only been aware of the LTD for less than a month. Never played FF7 until remake. I was shocked there was this war going on when there is so much in the game and novels that spell it out about Cloud and Tifa.

I want it to end so the toxic ones can move on and more discussion on other parts of the game can happen more. When part 3 comes out this is likely to happen. Also people can then enjoy their character moments without an argument Starting. There's nothing good keeping this LTD alive for another 27 years. In HD with voice acting it's gonna be almost impossible for anyone to argue without looking stupid.

 

[Sacky]

Do you think its too much for part 3 to have a romantic scene for both CT and ZA? Such as a kiss for both?

Here's what could happen. Montage showing all the characters and what they where doing on the night visiting loved ones, Part 3's main theme could be playing over it, shows all our main cast then shows Zack and Aerith in the church with a romantic scene then ends with the full highwind scene with Cloud and Tifa whatever they decide to do for that. Gets rid of LA/HA makes it a part of the story technically shows all characters while still keeping it a Cloud and Tifa important character moment

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

I do have a svelte seductive voice.

Not quite[/] how I remember it, but I'm probably just too far on the straight side of the scale to get the full thrust as it were

Yeah, the finale, as it were, is fixed. Romantic feelings are shared without words. We change the words leading up to that, not the feelings.

Exactly. LA UTH may be less risque, but the results are the same. We've been stuck on loop saying LA/HA doesn't matter for this very reason for more than a decade.

Time Warp was in fact the right choice and shut like this is why.

Too much like an actual surname. Nojura. Has a Kaiju like quality to it.

I like it. It's not a perfect fusion of names but it gets the idea across without the confusion if sounding like a real name. Besides... well Vegito and Gotenks both exist so clearly perfection is not required.

Well, to that I say Blam.

Thanks for standin' still!

Especially then.

Ah yes, I forget how bad some humans are at being honest with themselves.

It's technically a negative amount of time.

Their lying ways will always be back then.

I mean she's literally the woman of his past present and future.

Always, exactly.

Do a spy check or two while you're over there. Just good business sense.

Can't hear you, W+M1 style checking the entire base.

Also Imagine Sonic having to deal with Dialup.

He may quiver with frustration until he explodes like a blue sea mine.

Out of curiosity, did you ever see the show Mighty Orbots? It has another character who had the power "eat anything" but he was literally a walking power plant and converted everything he ate into energy for the super robot he was a part of.

I think I saw a brief bit of that, maybe an episode or two.

I try.

That is why you succeed as often as you do, yes. The moral is, Yoda was wrong.

My brain short circuited on the reference because it's stuck on Barret originally being called Bro and him getting very confused whenever someone calls for the cat and not knowing why.

I trust you got there in the end. And the mental speed bump you hit on the way there is also hilarious, so bonus.

Is it basically an echo effect you're doing?

No, not an echo. I can't really describe it, especially since the first time wasn't even deliberate. I asked my people to describe it, and roomie says it literally sounds as if two people with the same voice and inflection are speaking in perfect unison. It's tricky and sometimes I can't make it happen on command, understanding wtf I'm doing just might make it easier.

Oh as a side note, the only voice this works with is the previously described Vegeta inspired low rasp. Not my normal speaking voice or any other I regularly do.

Some of the little dogs just complete lack any and all fear.

She was young enough to have a bald belly for her first walkies in snow. With shirt little dachshund legs. She decided she preferred the life of a scarf pretty quickly.

I am also in favor of Literally not being used simply for emphasis but instead for cases where it's use is warranted.

Yes please.

It'd be cool to see a compilation title set like 12-15 years down the line and it's Denzel and Marlene going adventuring while the old folks stay home. Yuffie is the grizzled veteran of their group, at least until Red and Vincent join back up.

I mean she'll be like, Auron's age. That's knocking on death's door by JRPG standards, even without Auron's little... incident.

Yeah it was an absurd notion from the start, and the only reason is came about was people insisting Cloud and Tifa had nothing to do with each other.

You know, I've said some dumb shit in defense if a position I wanted to be true. We were all young once, I have no shame admitting it. But I eventually learned to listen to what I was saying and realize that if my arguments were dumb, made up garbage it meant I didn't have an actual point.

Do people actively fight self-awareness to prevent same happening to them?

Some people will absolutely just fucking lie to win, especially if they think it's "the right thing to do."

The ends justify the means to some... except here the end is immutable and already determined so they have to lie about that too.

Close. It misses the fact that they didn't stop using the translations from before he became a heretic. Those were still trustworhy. Just anything that was even remotely C/T was dismissed.

Ah, if course. Only the bits that don't support them are heresy. Again it's sad how easily this could be mistaken for political commentary.

Hito had similar words for them, yes.

I bloody hope so. Like, I need this to be "you said what to Granny Weather wax?!" levels of harsh. That is... just... fuck whoever did that.

That seems to be going around again, what with making shit up about japanese romances.
I seriously have never seen the argument that holding hands was more intimate than a kiss before... except of course in gag comics where it's the height of lewdness for a succubus, but that's neither here nor there.

I think I may remember that comic, or another that made broadly the same joke. But yeah, like we mentioned it's all just a spiral of death pink. Some new flotsam and detritus may was in now and then, buts the same old tide pushing and pulling it around and around.

I'll start grabbing quotes over the next little bit.

To borrow your recent reassurances, no pressure. You'll have it when you have it

That her fans paint her like that has always boggled me. Aerith is not worldly, but she's far from naïve about the shit that goes on in the slums in particular.

Aerith may be a special fish in a small pond, but said pond was full of bull sharks and crocodiles. Imagine Aerith saying the Scout's classic line from the old Meet the Blank vids...

Aerith: If you were from, where I was from? You'd be fuckin' dead.

And marvel that it works quite well for her

Long and the short of it, Reeve just explicitly has no gift of prophecy.

I still contend that those vague ass statements were at least sometimes carefully chosen to appear meaningful while not meaning much of anything. Which is not prophecy, any more than cold reading.

Even setting this aside that this is not true... so what? The question at hand is who does Cloud want to be with romantically. That's still Tifa.

What's the record for number of pages without needing to remind someone of what exactly is being debated in these threads? I imagine it's higher than I think, lower than it should be.

Not true. Many of the people who get hate here are Cleriths, but the hate is because of their extremely disingenuous manner of debate.

This is why I suggested CAltists and CulTists for the extremists, it helps people see the line between naughty disingenuous fucks in need of derision and ordinary shippers.

And lying about evidence, language, cultures, etc.

These are things to hate regardless of who does them or why.

Fuck them too, then.

I love you man, here I actively chose not to say exactly this and you did it for all of us.

I'll go one further for CulTists and say fuck them in particular[/] for debating in bad faith when they have no need to do so. At least CAlt members downing gallons of pink kool-aide don't have true things to prove their case. Unless they concede the truth, lies and distractions are all they have. People who claim Cloti could just be honest and lose nothing.

As has been mentioned, much of this is in response to current Clerith talking points, like the "Cloud kisses Tifa out of petty jealousy because Aerith likes Zack" and "Only prostitutes are kissed in Japan/ Japanese media." One of which is bizarre and nonsensical and the other is misogynistic and racist.

JFC those are just extra bad takes.

Zack was his best friend. He now remembers Zack's existence and that Zack was super serious about Aerith and he might seriously regret calling him a loser.

Seriously, if you could look inside Cloud's mind in that moment you probably wouldn't even have to Where's Waldo through all the Tifa to find that regret. It'd be writ large.

She's not even lying, except by omission. And yes, it's entirely to keep Cloud's psyche intact and Aerith and the rest of the gang are going along with it because they are all worried about old chocobo head.

It should be pointed out that no one is claiming this to be the right course of action. But it is the one everyone sticks with until Cloud breaks, and it's out of genuine concern. We'll never know if it would have been better or worse to just rip the band-aide off

I also want to address another thing that popped up earlier, and that's the idea that Cloud is eliding Zack from his memory so he can feel special, and that's not it.

I don't think it would be a controversial position among you lot that being close friends with Zack makes you more special rather than less. To paraphrase Wreck-it Ralph: "If that awesome bro likes me, how lame could I be?"

Cloud is trying to live on for Zack and honor his memory, but his mind is so fucked up that what he manages to cobble together is a house of cards heavily built from bits of Zack. He doesn't remember Zack at first because his subconscious won't let him remember Zack because Remembering Zack is both way too painful and might make his mind crack. Cloud doesn't want to forget Zack, he's mad at himself for forgetting Zack, for example. His mind just wouldn't let him remember until he had enough of his own mind built back up.

Every time someone tried to say Zack in Remake and Cloud's hearing went out, I winced in sympathy. Because as much as he's going to beat on himself for forgetting Zack later, remembering him right now would shatter Cloud.

It is fascinating that he remembers sooner in Rebirth than he does in the OG, though.

My jaw dropped when he pulled that off. I still wonder what the in-universe reason for this earlier development is. Cloud doesn't seem appreciably healthier mentally than in the OG, aside from not violently assaulting Aerith. But then, he and Tifa are developing faster this go around. Related?

Edit: I somehow italicized my whole post and cba to fix it, sorry. Ryu, may I blame your cat plzkthx

 

[Sacky]

Narratively speaking endgame CA fundamentally can’t happen because the ending of OG is CT (denying this is denying the relevant romantic implications of LS and HW scene; both low affection and high affection is still romantic) and if you deny endgame CT from OG, then that would have negative implications on Cloud’s character in ACC, which I’m sure is against devs’ intentions. Making headcanons or characterizing Cloud under the assumption that he doesn’t love Tifa or is not in a relationship with her is a misrepresentation of him. You’re free to do so, but it would be inaccurate.

Ambiguity on romantic ZA is possible, but for me it would be pointless and unlikely, because to me, in Rebirth, nothing about the set up of their reunion is subtle or romantically ambiguous. Even before the Retrilogy, in ACC the symbolism of ZA reuniting was significant enough for Cloud to acknowledge it himself. Zack and Aerith being portrayed in one frame was enough to show where Zack belongs, (similar to CT) and no, he’s not written to belong with someone who friendzones him; and Aerith’s last scene in the entire compilation would not be together with someone who she doesn’t love anymore, and I have no choice to perceive them being together as anything else but romantic because unlike CT who have a history of friendship before their romance, ZA has never been portrayed as just friends.

Even Aerith’s initial attraction to Cloud is proof of the severity of her lasting feelings for Zack. In ACC The devs made a deliberate choice that it was important to show Zack and Aerith together rather than apart, including adding two shots that symbolized them being reunited (sword in the church, flowers on his grave) That should tell me everything I need to know, because adding this visual symbolism about ZA being together again was given more relevance and was a priority above confirming CA’s mutual feelings in that film. They had an opportunity to make CA more explicitly romantic, but instead they made Zack be with Aerith in the afterlife, and even flat out says Cloud doesn’t have a place with them. If CA were the intended pair, to be perceived as star-crossed lovers after watching this, then you wouldn’t make the first love of the girl say this to the guy who’s supposedly her true love. ZA were separated as lovers, and thus they will reunite with romantic implications as well. People who think otherwise discredits their already established relationship. You can argue that they were not upfront about the nature of ZA in ACC (whether romantic or platonic) but inserting a friendzoning of Zack by Aerith after they reunite is more headcanon than believing they would resume their relationship if given the chance to (supported by events in Rebirth). The ambiguity of romance in ACC is the exact same criticism that’s said about CT, and that is exactly why I expect Zack and Aerith to kiss in part 3.

No offense to CA or its fans but Aerith picking Cloud who refused to sit close to her on the date that supposedly favors her over Zack who’s always been shown to be in love with her, the one taught her what love is, the one who made her write 89 letters in four years during his absence, will always be unconvincing. I can acknowledge that Aerith has grown feelings for Cloud, but I’ve personally never considered CA to be a hindrance to endgame ZA. Also CA becoming endgame not only suggests a retcon of OG’s ending and ACC’s ending, it also undermines Tifa and Zack’s importance to the story, this is implying Cloud and Aerith is above them (you can have your favorites but the main 5 who are the core of the ff7 compilation were always Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth and Zack, Cloud is the MC but T, A, S and Z all hold equal importance, hence the official art of Rebirth, showing said characters).

What people also forget is Mideel and how Tifa gave up the mission to be with Cloud. You don't put this storyline in to show a characters devotion and love for another, with the nurses even saying wow she must really love him. With 2 characters who we know have mutual feelings. For that character to be friendzoned in the end, yet Cloud would still decide to live in the same house, Which is just cruel to Tifa and completely Selfish of Cloud. There's just no way with how the current story is for CA to be end game. You would have to change Tifas story entirely. But the story has made it that Tifa and Cloud's feelings for each other aren't just character traits but a legitimate important plot point. The only way for Cloud and Tifa to fix his memories, is for him to accept his insecurity and his subconscious desire to tell Tifa his important memories about her. "Tender feelings that no one can ever know" that line is so important to the lifestream sequence because it shows why it can only be Tifa. His desire for her to know his feelings outweighs his insecurity about them. His subconscious also says tell Cloud you looked for him in the papers later. So we know Cloud still has those feelings. Clouds also mentally that same 16 year old boy who hid in shame because he thought he failed his promise.

 

[abzy1200]

It's moreso that I think that the emotional pivotal moments of the story can work regardless whether or not there are romantic feelings involved with either girl. I say a canon confirmation would weaken the story because that would narrow the interpretations of certain scenes down to only one valid one, and thus there would be less speculation and interpretation to be had about different meanings.
One thing to note is that you mention Tifa and Cloud having sex underneath the Highwind (which only happens in the OG thus far). We'll see how part 3 portrays that scene, but in the OG there were different versions of that scene that played out depending on your points with Tifa throughout the game. One implies there was sex, the other was more ambiguous in what occurred.
Deep emotional bonds aren't inherently romantic, even if they're intimate. Even if Cloud was trying to impress Tifa, it could be read as only platonic to some.

See here's the thing though, that's hardly a different interpretation of ambiguous scenes, it's mental gymnastics.

"So what if Cloud set a life goal to be a "special existence" to Tifa? So what if he bared his soul to her in which he reveals to her that his motivation has always been her? So what if he had sex with her? So what if you had the option to see them kiss? So what if he's raising a child with her, happily ever after? So what if the top authority on these characters claims that they belong at home together? So what if he claims he wrote Case of Tifa within the context of how he saw love, marriage, and family? There's no canon answer, nope, they're just really good friends!"

That's what is being denied here.

"A man and a woman confirm mutual feelings of romantic love, and then move in together and start raising children platonically."

Surely I don't need to spell out what's wrong with this "interpretation."

Narratively speaking endgame CA fundamentally can’t happen because the ending of OG is CT (denying this is denying the relevant romantic implications of LS and HW scene; both low affection and high affection is still romantic) and if you deny endgame CT from OG, then that would have negative implications on Cloud’s character in ACC, which I’m sure is against devs’ intentions. Making headcanons or characterizing Cloud under the assumption that he doesn’t love Tifa or is not in a relationship with her is a misrepresentation of him. You’re free to do so, but it would be inaccurate.

What people also forget is Mideel and how Tifa gave up the mission to be with Cloud. You don't put this storyline in to show a characters devotion and love for another, with the nurses even saying wow she must really love him. With 2 characters who we know have mutual feelings. For that character to be friendzoned in the end, yet Cloud would still decide to live in the same house, Which is just cruel to Tifa and completely Selfish of Cloud. There's just no way with how the current story is for CA to be end game. You would have to change Tifas story entirely. But the story has made it that Tifa and Cloud's feelings for each other aren't just character traits but a legitimate important plot point. The only way for Cloud and Tifa to fix his memories, is for him to accept his insecurity and his subconscious desire to tell Tifa his important memories about her. "Tender feelings that no one can ever know" that line is so important to the lifestream sequence because it shows why it can only be Tifa. His desire for her to know his feelings outweighs his insecurity about them. His subconscious also says tell Cloud you looked for him in the papers later. So we know Cloud still has those feelings. Clouds also mentally that same 16 year old boy who hid in shame because he thought he failed his promise.

Yeah this. Cloud revealing to Tifa in the lifestream that she was his motivation for basically his whole life and then having sex with her, only to go "sorry, I can't wait to reunite with my actual love when I die" in the Northern Crater when he thinks he's going to die, to then go "jk actually, I can't wait to start a new, normal life with you, Tifa" and then dumping a terminally ill child on Tifa and leading her on basically, only to leave to seek the warmth of his "true love."

I mean, this version of Cloud is such an insufferable prick that I don't know why people actually advocate for it.

 

[Ryeleigh]

This is what has made me bit nervous as well. Devs must know that if they are going to canonize Cloti then 50% of the fandom (cleriths) are going to have a meltdown.

I don't really have anything to add to the current topic of discussion but I wanted to address this. The general audience, which makes the bulk of any audience, are not shippers, lol. They're just there to be entertained and then move on. The actual shippers make for a pretty negligible portion of any audience (even if an even smaller fraction of them are very loud about it, lol) and even that negligible portion is divided into different factions: multi-shippers, slash shippers, various het shippers, etc.

So no, canonising CT wouldn't anger 50% of the fandom, lol. To be honest, I feel that shippers always exaggerate their importance and numbers.

EDIT: And even in a world where shippers did make up 100% of the fandom, CAs really wouldn't be 50% of it, lol.

 

[Sacky]

I don't really have anything to add to the current topic of discussion but I wanted to address this. The general audience, which makes the bulk of any audience, are not shippers, lol. They're just there to be entertained and then move on. The actual shippers make for a pretty negligible portion of any audience (even if an even smaller fraction of them are very loud about it, lol) and even that negligible portion is divided into different factions: multi-shippers, slash shippers, various het shippers, etc.

So no, canonising CT wouldn't anger 50% of the fandom, lol. To be honest, I feel that shippers always exaggerate their importance and numbers.

Half the time it's alt accounts and you can start recognising names they are vocal but no they aren't as big as you would think. Look at the Reddit pages for both there both actually kinda small most people just follow the story. Though a lot do say it's ambiguous and up for the player to decide that's the narrative that needs to be put to bed. HD voice acting gonna be hard to argue against it.

 

[Stiggie]

Well, what carries more weight for you? Statements and isolated moments or the entire picture?

Essentially the problem with Clerith arguments comes down to this:
Question: What color is this Square?


White, the clotis say
Red, the cleriths say

"what are you talking about, the square is clearly white?!" the exasperated Cloti says.
"Oh yeah, well what about this!?" The Clerith replies

 

[Ryeleigh]

Though a lot do say it's ambiguous and up for the player to decide that's the narrative that needs to be put to bed.

Yeah, I really don't get this one since there are actual games where it's up for the player to decide and FF7 just isn't it, lol.

Or let me put it this way: the player can choose how interested in Aerith Cloud is (the nature of the interest being ambiguous) but the player can't choose that Cloud isn't interested in Tifa. And he'll end up with her regardless of player choice.

 

[Yoru]

Even before the Retrilogy, in ACC the symbolism of ZA reuniting was significant enough for Cloud to acknowledge it himself. Zack and Aerith being portrayed in one frame was enough to show where Zack belongs, (similar to CT) and no, he’s not written to belong with someone who friendzones him; and Aerith’s last scene in the entire compilation would not be together with someone who she doesn’t love anymore, and I have no choice to perceive them being together as anything else but romantic because unlike CT who have a history of friendship before their romance, ZA has never been portrayed as just friends.

Exactly.

And I'd like to remind people: Where and when do we see dead characters appear in the Lifestream to help our group?

Nowhere and never. Aerith's mother to guide her? No. Tifa's parent when she fell into the mako pool? No. Just her memories of their voices, they're not there.
Why not? Because that's not how the Lifestream works. When you die, you dissolve in it.

So why did Cloud see Aerith and Zack? Two possibilities:

• It's just in Cloud's head. As Nomura implied, dead poeple are not here, that's your memories of it. Typical "Always in your heart" type of things.
• Aerith is different of others Cetras. The chosen one. So she has powers other don't have. And she chose to keep Zack close and always with her.

What's telling us ? :

• That the mental image of a now happy and appeased Cloud is to see Aerith and Zack reunited and happy in the Lifestream.
• That Zack is much more than a friend. If not, I can't imagine what a bad person Aerith would be to prevent Zack from "going back to the light" just to keep him as a puppy dog until Cloud dies.

Conclusion :
ZA is real. Is concrete. That's the star crossed lover of this story some are desperate to include. It's right here. You don't have to bring Cloud into this. They're meant to each other. In life as in death.

 

[eleamaya]

Aerith is different of others Cetras. The chose one. So she has powers other don't have. And she chose to keep Zack close and always with her.

The reason why Zack retaining his individuality will be explained in Part 3. Nojima said he hopes for Zack to get involved with the sense of Planet. This is perhaps something new that Planet has some business with him as he can branch new world based on his decision, will, hope, and dream. Flowers leading him also has nothing to do with Aerith but the Planet's will as Aerith is supposed to follow it too. If Zack was always by her side, it's his own will, his world, his rule; not because Aerith keeping him for what she wants. I prefer that way.

 

[Yoru]

The reason why Zack retaining his individuality will be explained in Part 3. Nojima said he hopes for Zack to get involved with the sense of Planet. This is perhaps something new that Planet has some business with him as he can branch new world based on his decision, will, hope, and dream. Flowers leading him also has nothing to do with Aerith but the Planet's will as Aerith is supposed to follow it too. If Zack was always by her side, it's his own will, his world, his rule; not because Aerith keeping him for what she wants. I prefer that way.

We'll see. I guess you're right.

But the thing is, for me, the planet is Aerith. When she thinks the planet is talking to her and guiding her... it's really just her presence in the Lifestream. She's guiding herself.

It's a totally personal interpretation. It's just the way I've always seen Aerith in OG. Because at first glance, the planet isn't really on our side. It lives its life and thinks only of its own survival. To me, it summons the weapons to eradicate everyone on the surface and make a "reset". So in my mind, I've always interpreted this planet becoming "nice" and really starting to help us as Aerith taking the reins. Or at least being its good guardian. In much the same way as Lighting is Etro's armed hand in FFXIII.