SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pxl_pushr]

And sorry to sound like an asshole, but you can keep your depression depiction if it's to instrumentalize it as something romantic. I don't want anything to do with it.

(not talking to you directly of course.)

Denzel being the focus of his doubts and also acting as a placeholder for his past failures works just as well imo and could give Tifa or any other party member a chance to have a real conversation with Cloud about it.

I’d prefer it to be Tifa since they’re in a relationship, but I think Vincent also works if you tackle it from a “I’m living the end of that road you’re on Cloud, and trust me when I say you don’t want to be me.” angle.

Giving Cloud a minor setback in his character development isn’t a bad story premise.

I just wish Nojima got a chance to do what he originally set out to do: tell a simple story of Cloud and Tifa on a day out with the kids. That would’ve been great.

 

[Hellenic]

The affinity system is extra annoying to me because some quests should've been between specific characters without needing to include Cloud. Like Aerith's cooking quest with Cissnei should've been a quest between Aerith and Tifa instead in my opinion.

When i saw the topic for that quest, i immediately thought Tifa would be involved in it considering all the food talk we had with her in the game and then it turns out it's Aeriths instead. Safe to say i was a bit disappointed her food stuff never got any kinda payoff.

 

[Rin]

When i saw the topic for that quest, i immediately thought Tifa would be involved in it considering all the food talk we had with her in the game and then it turns out it's Aeriths instead. Safe to say i was a bit disappointed her food stuff never got any kinda payoff.

Yeah, like she was so excited about Gongaga mushrooms so idk why she wasn't the one picking them. Missed opportunity for sure.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah, like she was so excited about Gongaga mushrooms so idk why she wasn't the one picking them. Missed opportunity for sure.

They wanted to focus on Aerith preparing dinner for the Fair.

So I can see the vision at least.

Characters quests are not THAT bad. A lot of them are introducing ToTP and Ever Crisis stuff for Tifa. It was a nice touch.

The real problem is that they are mandatory to unlock the Date in Gold Saucer. Because in itself, they're not that romance heavy. It's just private time with Cloud. Nothing fancy. But people are so afraid to miss their desired date that they skip it.

 

[nars305]

I just have to say I love the Escape from endless writers block quest because Nanaki’s voice is so cute in Japanese.

 

[abzy1200]

I just have to say I love the Escape from endless writers block quest because Nanaki’s voice is so cute in Japanese.

Fun fact, and it took me a while to notice it, but it's the same voice actor that does Usopp in One Piece!

and another fun fact, if I remember correctly, in the English dub, Nanaki shares a voice actor with Ryuji from Persona 5.

 

[Rin]

They wanted to focus on Aerith preparing dinner for the Fair.

So I can see the vision at least.

Characters quests are not THAT bad. A lot of them are introducing ToTP and Ever Crisis stuff for Tifa. It was a nice touch.

The real problem is that they are mandatory to unlock the Date in Gold Saucer. Because in itself, they're not that romance heavy. It's just private time with Cloud. Nothing fancy. But people are so afraid to miss their desired date that they skip it.

I have no issue with the quest being for Aerith at all, it makes sense that it's hers. My argument is that it should be an Aerith/Tifa quest w/o any Cloud involvement but thats not possible due to the affinity system.

Tifa is the chef/restaurant owner and the one who was excited about Gongaga mushrooms, so if anyone is going to help Aerith and Cissnei prepare a dinner for the Fairs... Tifa's a much better choice for that scenario than Cloud is. But we can't get interactions and quests like that because the affinity system locks all these quests in as a way to spend alone time w/ Cloud. For reasons like this, I can see why Nojima didn't like working scenarios around it.

 

[Sacky]

I have no issue with the quest being for Aerith at all, it makes sense that it's hers. My argument is that it should be an Aerith/Tifa quest w/o any Cloud involvement but thats not possible due to the affinity system.

Affinity system was terrible and didn't even make sense to a lot of people. The ultimania had to reveal how it actually fully worked, which is shockingly bad. It also meant sidequests were only character focused on majority one character. It also had a timer that was less forgiving then life or death choice games so you can't even read in time what to choose or think about the answer. Then it also sometimes caused scenes or conversations to be ruined like Aeriths speech if you chose wrong. It also made people only do quests for the character they wanted to make sure they got them for the date. Worst of all the argument of relationships and romance is optional will continue until part3 when lifestream sequence is in HD. Even though theres an almost kiss scene between 2 of the characters in the main story.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I have no issue with the quest being for Aerith at all, it makes sense that it's hers. My argument is that it should be an Aerith/Tifa quest w/o any Cloud involvement but thats not possible due to the affinity system.

Tifa is the chef/restaurant owner and the one who was excited about Gongaga mushrooms, so if anyone is going to help Aerith and Cissnei prepare a dinner for the Fairs... Tifa's a much better choice for that scenario than Cloud is. But we can't get interactions and quests like that because the affinity system locks all these quests in as a way to spend alone time w/ Cloud. For reasons like this, I can see why Nojima didn't like working scenarios around it.

This is why I’m with the people who want no affinity system, especially in part 3. Not only does it not really fit into the original story, it could free up the devs to mix up the party configuration to something that makes more sense, or go character X and Y are mandatory but character Z is your choice but they won’t really do much during the quest outside of fights.

 

[Rin]

Affinity system was terrible and didn't even make sense to a lot of people. The ultimania had to reveal how it actually fully worked, which is shockingly bad. It also meant sidequests were only character focused on majority one character. It also had a timer that was less forgiving then life or death choice games so you can't even read in time what to choose or think about the answer. Then it also sometimes caused scenes or conversations to be ruined like Aeriths speech if you chose wrong. It also made people only do quests for the character they wanted to make sure they got them for the date. Worst of all the argument of relationships and romance is optional will continue until part3 when lifestream sequence is in HD. Even though theres an almost kiss scene between 2 of the characters in the main story.

Yeah it was truly a bad way of doing things and it was even more annoying that certain quests were locked behind other ones. Like Aerith's Corel region quest bled directly into Tifa's.

Is there a breakdown chart of how the system works anywhere? I know SE didn't want direct translations of the ultimania out but ... has anyone broken it down in a way that doesn't piss them off? Cause I'm curious.

This is why I’m with the people who want no affinity system, especially in part 3. Not only does it not really fit into the original story, it could free up the devs to mix up the party configuration to something that makes more sense, or go character X and Y are mandatory but character Z is your choice but they won’t really do much during the quest outside of fights.

Me too, I don't want to deal with the affinity system ever again tbh. I don't even mind if certain quest formations aren't up to player choice tbh, but please just give us some variety lol I'd like to be able to do quests without Clouds involvement and not just because he's in a coma somewhere.

 

[Eerie]

Honestly having so many Tifa quests locked behind others’ was bad. It pissed me off at times. Why do you do this to your heroine? Aerith’s quests had none locked behind others’. No quest should be locked (new areas aside I can understand that).

Anyway I was thinking about how some interpret CA interactions as romantic and others as deep friendship (plus comfort) and connected it to Aerith in her resolution in Remake: “even if you think you have, it’s an illusion” (paraphrasing here). It sounded so weird (would he think that or not?), that I guessed it was more aimed at the players.

So looking at it and how it played in Rebirth, I think that you can read it as romantic, although not everyone will see it that way, but in the end it’s just a pretty illusion. This is not where Cloud’s heart truly is and once the illusion will fall, sweet memories will be all that’s left. It does fit how they never addressed the CA relationship because it really depends on how you see it; there’s nothing canon, each player has his own opinion, even if the story pushes you one way in Rebirth, but in the end it doesn’t matter.

To me who compare it with the Tifa route, it’s clear that Cloud isn’t interested romantically in Aerith; he leaves her doing all the work (talking etc.) while with Tifa he’s much more trying to ask her questions and even flirt at times. And that’s without even the main story where CT hits so hard with their intimacy (not even talking about the near kiss) and the way they support each other. But I get it that some may think Cloud loves Aerith romantically. But to me it’s a pretty illusion that’s going to be dispelled in hopefully 3 years.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Yeah, they really didn't want Cloud out the party, even post game It's Cloud and your three chosen party members running around, they didn't want you to take him out main game or even have switch party members in battle mechanic.

 

[Yoru]

To me who compare it with the Tifa route, it’s clear that Cloud isn’t interested romantically in Aerith; he leaves her doing all the work (talking etc.) while with Tifa he’s much more trying to ask her questions and even flirt at times. And that’s without even the main story where CT hits so hard with their intimacy (not even talking about the near kiss) and the way they support each other. But I get it that some may think Cloud loves Aerith romantically. But to me it’s a pretty illusion that’s going to be dispelled in hopefully 3 years.

That's pretty much my interpretation of it.

But as we were talking about echo chambers the other day, I try to be open minded and watch or talk about it with other people. And I'm "terrified" when I see people who are not part of the extreme side of the force emerging from the game with the real conviction that it is preparing a totally happy ending for Aerith (= the true heroine who wins it all. The game and Cloud)

And that's the moment where I doubt. Am I too biased ? Do I refuse to see the things in front of me ? Will I be the one to fall hard with Part 3 ?

I just don't understand the signs.

 

[Rin]

Yeah, they really didn't want Cloud out the party, even post game It's Cloud and your three chosen party members running around, they didn't want you to take him out main game or even have switch party members in battle mechanic.

To a certain extent I get it, he's our main character after all but.... come on I think this is why I loved Barret being chosen to witness Nanaki's trial even though Cloud offered. Gave us a good chunk of time to spend with Nanaki & Barrets w/o Cloud being involved.

I also liked having an AerTi "date" in Costa as well. I want more stuff like that in part 3, pls!

 

[abzy1200]

@Ryushikaze @Gym Leader Devil

Out of boredom I was reading/skimming through old threads to do with the LTD and...oh my lord...

How did any of you ever put up with Blankbeat and others like them? Some of the stuff they're constructing arguments off of makes me want to scream at my monitor for not being able to reply to them! Surely not all of them were this bad, right? Kudos to ye, FairheartStrife, Isabella, Vendel, Quexinos, hitoshura, Tres etc. because my god I would have lost it.

In this post, I'm talking about this quote, and how it supposedly implies Cloud and Tifa might not have worked out and could possibly have broken up post AC, because it, in particular, makes no sense to me:

“‘Episode Tifa’ … first off, there’s the premise that things won’t go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don’t really intend to go on about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith.”

Why would Nojima build up Cloud and Tifa so much, going as far as to claim that "in his heart", he knew they would be "at home" together where they "belonged", write a short section of a book that elaborates on Cloud and Tifa's relationship and write it through his views of "love, marriage, and family", having Tifa referred to as "taisetsu na josei" to Cloud, have Cloud, his personality, and character arc revolve around Tifa, only to go "Oh, Cloud and Tifa? yeah, those two didn't work out off screen and broke up lolz." Seriously, what purpose would that have in the story or for the characters involved? That even after everything they've been through, they just didn't work out because they didn't have a perfect, flawless relationship? What message are we supposed to learn from there?

I also feel like people massively exaggerate issues between Cloud and Tifa. From Case of Tifa, there literally isn't a single thing that indicates Cloud and Tifa wouldn't work out, in fact, it shows quite the opposite, that when Cloud isn't struggling with guilt and depression(Which is resolved, btw), that he was happy, very happy, living "like a family" with Tifa and the kids. Having "silly conversations" with her, encouraging Tifa that he would be there for her to remind her of how strong she is, that they would certainly find their "normal life" together, how Cloud "slightly resembled a young father and his children."

Problems only started occuring when Cloud starts his business, which if I remember correctly, is only because it forced him to "face his past", which again, relates back to his depression and is not reflective of any actual deal-breakers between Cloud and Tifa.

Seriously, what on God's green earth indicates Cloud and Tifa would ever break up offscreen? I can't tell if I just have tunnel vision and am forgetting stuff or something from being wound up, but what is an interpretation of this compilation where Cloud and Tifa are incompatible and weren't happy together to the point they separate that isn't completely detached from any and all reasoning and evidence provided by said compilation?

Only wishful thinking from Cleriths can spin this quote in such a way for it to even possibly allude to a failed relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Really sorry for the rant, Like I said I'm wound up, mainly from not being able to give that person my two cents.

Honestly having so many Tifa quests locked behind others’ was bad. It pissed me off at times. Why do you do this to your heroine? Aerith’s quests had none locked behind others’. No quest should be locked (new areas aside I can understand that).

While it annoyed me too, I think the simplest explanation is that this is supposed to be Aerith's game, her time to shine since she (hopefully) won't have nearly as much screen time in part 3, so they want you to experience Aerith's sidequests.

The same way the affection system in the original was biased towards Aerith...because they wanted to get you attached to her before she inevitably kicked the bucket.

 

[Rin]

That's pretty much my interpretation of it.

But as we were talking about echo chambers the other day, I try to be open minded and watch or talk about it with other people. And I'm "terrified" when I see people who are not part of the extreme side of the force emerging from the game with the real conviction that it is preparing a totally happy ending for Aerith (= the true heroine who wins it all. The game and Cloud)

And that's the moment where I doubt. Am I too biased ? Do I refuse to see the things in front of me ? Will I be the one to fall hard with Part 3 ?

I just don't understand the signs.

Those people ignore a lot of things, even if they aren't extreme. And they might not be ignoring it on purpose, it just may go over their heads. I think a lot of people didn't understand the point of Zack's interlude and I knew from the moment leakers were saying it was "unimportant" and "fanservice" that something was just not adding up.

To a lot of people, what happened in his interlude is meaningless and easily ignored, save for one cherry picked scene. But that's exactly what leads them into thinking that Cloud & Aerith are the "obvious" choice. They're just not taking in the full picture.

 

[Eerie]

That's pretty much my interpretation of it.

But as we were talking about echo chambers the other day, I try to be open minded and watch or talk about it with other people. And I'm "terrified" when I see people who are not part of the extreme side of the force emerging from the game with the real conviction that it is preparing a totally happy ending for Aerith (= the true heroine who wins it all. The game and Cloud)

And that's the moment where I doubt. Am I too biased ? Do I refuse to see the things in front of me ? Will I be the one to fall hard with Part 3 ?

I just don't understand the signs.

See that’s the problem with echo chambers, are we in one or are others in one? If you look at what they say about Tifa and how they ignore her role as one of the two heroines, you can safely say that they are living in a pretty illusion.

 

[abzy1200]

See that’s the problem with echo chambers, are we in one or are others in one? If you look at what they say about Tifa and how they ignore her role as one of the two heroines, you can safely say that they are living in a pretty illusion.

Yeah, that's usually a good way to weed out people who have no idea what they're talking about in the first place.

The number one thing I check for in Cleriths or anybody who is "neutral", is what they think of Tifa, and do their "interpretations" directly contradict what comes straight the mouths of the devs.

 

[Rin]

Their opinions on Tifa and Zack will tell you everything you need to know, it's true lol

 

[imach0c0]

Anyway I was thinking about how some interpret CA interactions as romantic and others as deep friendship (plus comfort) and connected it to Aerith in her resolution in Remake: “even if you think you have, it’s an illusion” (paraphrasing here). It sounded so weird (would he think that or not?), that I guessed it was more aimed at the players.

Regarding what Aerith tells Cloud in the Chapter 14 Resolution scene, do you think any of these are possible scenarios?

1. Aerith assumed that Cloud would fall in love with her so she came to warn him (just in case)
2. If Cloud is projecting an Aerith illusion (post Aerith death) maybe Cloud falls in love with that version of "Aerith" in Part 3. Since his mind is messed up, maybe Sephiroth can exploit that and make him feel confused about his feelings.

 

[abzy1200]

Their opinions on Tifa and Zack will tell you everything you need to know, it's true lol

You just have to wait until they claim (or imply) that Tifa is some oblivious, third wheeling moron who invited herself to Cloud and Aerith's romantic reunion, and that she doesn't understand Cloud at all compared to Aerith (despite overwhelming evidence of the complete inverse). That's usually the biggest tell.

 

[abzy1200]

2. If Cloud is projecting an Aerith illusion (post Aerith death) maybe Cloud "falls in love" with that in Part 3 before he comes to his senses.

Even if he does, Cloud right now can't even be trusted with seeing straight, let alone having a grasp on his true feelings. Which brings us right back to "real Cloud" and how SOLDIER Cloud's feelings aren't necessarily reflective of Cloud's actual feelings.

tl;dr he's too fucked in the head for it to matter either way.

 

[Rin]

2. If Cloud is projecting an Aerith illusion (post Aerith death) maybe Cloud "falls in love" with that in Part 3 before he comes to his senses.

This seems really unlikely since he believes he left Aerith at the Forgotten Capital to keep praying. He was literally like "k bye!" at the end. So, there's no logical reason for him to fall in love w/ the illusion in part 3? And also when would he have the time to fall in love with said illusion if he believes she's at the Forgotten Capital? He would need to be in love with her already for that to work.

 

[imach0c0]

This seems really unlikely since he believes he left Aerith at the Forgotten Capital to keep praying. He was literally like "k bye!" at the end. So, there's no logical reason for him to fall in love w/ the illusion in part 3? And also when would he have the time to fall in love with said illusion if he believes she's at the Forgotten Capital? He would need to be in love with her already for that to work.

That's true.

I don't know to what degree the jenova cells/zack memories inside Cloud can be exploited. It was interesting how Cloud and Zack were in sync doing the SOLIDER honor thing. So I wonder if Sephiroth would manipulate Cloud into thinking he is actually Zack and maybe in turn, Cloud may inherit Zack's emotions. idk

I have not really thought these ideas through so don't mind if they may be out of whack. lol

 

[Eerie]

Regarding what Aerith tells Cloud in the Chapter 14 Resolution scene, do you think any of these are possible scenarios?

1. Aerith assumed that Cloud would fall in love with her so she came to warn him (just in case)
2. If Cloud is projecting an Aerith illusion (post Aerith death) maybe Cloud falls in love with that version of "Aerith" in Part 3. Since his mind is messed up, maybe Sephiroth can exploit that and make him feel confused about his feelings.

See if we were meant to think 2. is going to happen, then:

• we wouldn’t have Aerith staying behind but coming with the party
• there should at least be a hint of Cloud’s feelings for his new discovered feelings: a confession, a kiss, a hug, something; but no, all there is a goodbye without any hesitation

So 2. is definitely not happening.

As for 1., Aerith is talking for herself more than for Cloud. She is also talking to the players because it’s us who ultimately interpret Cloud’s feelings.