SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Sacky]

I also don’t like the implication that the OG storyline is a “bad future”. Sure, Aerith dies but all of the group is still more or less happy, her coming back would almost assuredly have a butterfly effect that she would not be able to tell will result in good futures.

I suppose you can argue that humanity doesn’t exist 500 years into the future but honestly, that has never been confirmed, is up for interpretation, and seems divisive among the fanbase.

Moreover, it would be after the main group has lived out their lives so it wouldn’t affect them. Except Nanaki and potentially Vincent. But even in those cases, they would both be alive. Or Vincent, who doesn’t want immortality, would be dead so it would work out for him.

actually the advent children film script reveals that humanity did survive

 

[pxl_pushr]

My personal problem is that Square Enix knows no half measures.

In Remake, she is omnipotent and cannot be caught unprepared.

In Rebirth she's totally lost, crossing Cosmo Canyon like a tourist (still in shock that it's Tifa who's talking about defending the planet) until the game remembers that she's important as Cetra. It was just super weird.

Can we just have one balanced character, please?

I'm not even sure her goal has something to do with saving herself. She just want Sephiroth to stop playing with Worlds, because it's wrong and even the planet needs to die someday.

It also runs the risk of contradicting Cloud’s character arc in terms of acceptance ( of who you are, your failures, etc ) muddying it all up.

Accept reality… unless your a magical Cetra who can take advantage of the plans of a madman with a god complex… who you can argue is doing the same as you just with intentions that are on the opposite end of the spectrum… maybe.

Haven’t crossed that line yet tbf, but I’m hoping they recognize it and avoid it before the end of part 3.

 

[Yoru]

I also don’t like the implication that the OG storyline is a “bad future”.

More than a bad future, I think the game suggests that this is not the real end.

We know from Ultimania that the worlds are Sephiroth's work. He does it to "create drama" and use people's strong feelings as energy to feed the planet. To keep it eternal. An infinite number of worlds as a source of infinite energy.

Aerith's goal is to stop it. We must respect the planet's will. Nothing is eternal. Not even her. All things must die one day.

My point is. OG FF7 is just one of Sephiroth's "dramatic" worlds. A world where humanity fights after the meteor and dies little by little lamenting their shitty life (space cancer in AC is an example of it).

 

[GamerSkull]

actually the advent children film script reveals that humanity did survive View attachment 16708

Personally, I’ve always believed that humanity did survive but they’ve gone back to a more rural lifestyle.

 

[GamerSkull]

More than a bad future, I think the game suggests that this is not the real end.

We know from Ultimania that the worlds are Sephiroth's work. He does it to "create drama" and use people's strong feelings as energy to feed the planet. To keep it eternal. An infinite number of worlds as a source of infinite energy.

Aerith's goal is to stop it. We must respect the planet's will. Nothing is eternal. Not even her. All things must die one day.

My point is. OG FF7 is just one of Sephiroth's "dramatic" worlds. A world where humanity fights after the meteor and dies (space cancer in AC is an example of it).

I just hope we end Part 3 with one single timeline.

 

[Yoru]

I just hope we end Part 3 with one single timeline.

I'm still in the team : There is only one. The one we're playing with Cloud and the party.

All the rest is Lifestream shenanigans.

 

[GamerSkull]

I'm still in the team : There is only one. The one we're playing with Cloud and the party.

All the rest is Lifestream shenanigans.

Yeah, that’s kinda where I see it going too. Just hope that’s true.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah, that’s kinda where I see it going too. Just hope that’s true.

That's why I don't believe this "Zack's in our world now."

It's too big a change in FF7's story. Something they won't do if we can trust their statements.

We can play with the Lifestream. But resurrecting someone? Yeah, no. It's not my FF7.

If he's really there in Part 3, two solutions:

• We're not in the real world either
• He's not real

 

[GamerSkull]

That's why I don't believe this "Zack's in our world now."

It's too big a change in FF7's story. Something they won't do if we can trust their statements.

We can play with the Lifestream. But resurrecting someone? Yeah, no. It's not my FF7.

If he's really there in Part 3, two solutions:

• We're not in the real world either
• He's not real

Yeah, even as a huge Zack fan. I still prefer him to be dead. Same with Aerith. Any reunion with them should be in the Lifestream/Afterlife imo. We can still have a Zerith ending without resurrecting them.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah, even a huge Zack fan. I still prefer him to be dead. Same with Aerith. Any reunion with them should be in the Lifestream/Afterlife imo. We can still have a Zerith ending without resurrecting them.

Same I love him. And I love him with her around even more.

But dead characters now alive ? That's the definition of changing the story lmao. So yeah, I don't see it happening.

 

[null]

Well... you're forcing me to be petty () but... actually some were happy...

... the same people who will celebrate a Cloud and Aerith ending after what we saw in Rebirth (and if 3rd game follows the OG story)

People who doesn't care about the story but just their ship.

And it's kinda the same situation with FF7. It's people happy with a story where the MC leaves a girl he confessed to and slept with, alone with a child.

Domestic Girlfriend is oddly relevant to the FFVII debate. It's one reason I keep reminding everyone not to assume where the story's going, even if you think it's under lock and key for both plot and business reasons. It's also where I first heard about the themes of Ai vs Koi from the author - Hina supporting her beloved and wanting him to be happy vs Rui's aching, passionate "can't live without you" love.

The ending (timeskip) was hot garbage. This is another reason I don't want the FFVII writers deciding on the characters' states of mind ahead of time. If you want a happy ending, write to it. Don't decide on a happy ending, then write a disaster and paint smiles on everyone's faces.

But aside from the execution, I 100% disagree about the end pairs not making sense, and I was on the losing team. I read the ending and got pissed like everyone else. But I read it again from the beginning, and I was wrong. Dead, completely, pants on head wrong.

Domestic Girlfriend is a story about a girl falling in love with her sister's soulmate, and feeling guilty and insecure about coming between them until it comes to a head. The story was absolutely building up to it the entire time. Note that it wasn't Hina being in a coma that made Natsuo and Rui break up - it was Rui finding out about the rings, and Natsuo finally learning the truth about why Hina left him the first time. That was a bomb waiting to go off. They both dodged a divorce 5 years down the line.

It's literally the Attack on Titan of romance manga - phenomenal story, everyone loved it, but the rushed ending tried to pull off a shocking twist and ended up losing the fanbase. It's a travesty. The author seems like a lovely person and got way too much hate for it.

 

[Rin]

Don’t they though in ACC?

I mean... No, not really since Zack doesn't actually cross over into Cloud's world to fight Sephiroth or do anything remotely physical at all in ACC except give Cloud a pep talk so that's not really worlds colliding imo, not the way Rebirth has established world's colliding to be.

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

The ending (timeskip) was hot garbage. This is another reason I don't want the FFVII writers deciding on the characters' states of mind ahead of time. If you want a happy ending, write to it. Don't decide on a happy ending, then write a disaster and paint smiles on everyone's faces.

You're right, which is why I normally only give my attention to things that are already finished but sometimes stuff slips through the cracks. It's also one of the reasons why I'm not a full-blown CT because free Tifa from the ltd if he's written to be in love with A.

 

[Yoru]

Domestic Girlfriend is oddly relevant to the FFVII debate. It's one reason I keep reminding everyone not to assume where the story's going, even if you think it's under lock and key for both plot and business reasons. It's also where I first heard about the themes of Ai vs Koi from the author - Hina supporting her beloved and wanting him to be happy vs Rui's aching, passionate "can't live without you" love.

The ending (timeskip) was hot garbage. This is another reason I don't want the FFVII writers deciding on the characters' states of mind ahead of time. If you want a happy ending, write to it. Don't decide on a happy ending, then write a disaster and paint smiles on everyone's faces.

But aside from the execution, I 100% disagree about the end pairs not making sense, and I was on the losing team. I read the ending and got pissed like everyone else. But I read it again from the beginning, and I was wrong. Dead, completely, pants on head wrong.

Domestic Girlfriend is a story about a girl falling in love with her sister's soulmate, and feeling guilty and insecure about coming between them until it comes to a head. The story was absolutely building up to it the entire time. Note that it wasn't Hina being in a coma that made Natsuo and Rui break up - it was Rui finding out about the rings, and Natsuo finally learning the truth about why Hina left him the first time. That was a bomb waiting to go off. They both dodged a divorce 5 years down the line.

It's literally the Attack on Titan of romance manga - phenomenal story, everyone loved it, but the rushed ending tried to pull off a shocking twist and ended up losing the fanbase. It's a travesty. The author seems like a lovely person and got way too much hate for it.

I don't really agree. Natsuo is legit gaslighted to leave Rui because "Hina made sacrifices you know". I'm sorry but it's just ass and a terrible plot twist. It never was forshadowed. Kei just decided to subvert expectations for her own vision of "Romantic love". But whatever, we're not here to discuss that.

I still think it won't happen in FF7, because they're just telling the same story. Just expanding it. We're on the same rails. I don't see why they would change Cloud character and motivation in life "just because".

 

[Rin]

I'm still in the team : There is only one. The one we're playing with Cloud and the party.

All the rest is Lifestream shenanigans.

More than a bad future, I think the game suggests that this is not the real end.

We know from Ultimania that the worlds are Sephiroth's work. He does it to "create drama" and use people's strong feelings as energy to feed the planet. To keep it eternal. An infinite number of worlds as a source of infinite energy.

Aerith's goal is to stop it. We must respect the planet's will. Nothing is eternal. Not even her. All things must die one day.

My point is. OG FF7 is just one of Sephiroth's "dramatic" worlds. A world where humanity fights after the meteor and dies little by little lamenting their shitty life (space cancer in AC is an example of it).

I could be wrong but I think the way the ultimania explained it is basically there's one planet and infinite 'possibilities' and which possibilities come to fruition is all based off of 'fate'. Nojima said that he's used Carl Jung's theory of the collective unconscious as inspiration for the retrilogy, which makes a lot of sense bc the LS is basically a shared state of unconsciousness for all living things on the planet.

In Ever Crisis, it's stated that the flow of the LS causes memories and knowledge to converge at specific points where it never may have in reality, thus creating an infinite amount of new worlds and possibilities. This is simply the nature of the lifestream and it's overall design. So, from that, we can infer that the whispers were created by the planet to help it differentiate reality from possibility because these 'possibilities' are on equal foot to reality--as proven by Cloud taking Aerith's white materia from one world to the next.

Now, in my opinion, the issue the narrative is presenting to the player is not that these worlds exist in general but rather that our protagonist is aware that they exist and has destroyed the whispers whose job is to keep reality and possibility separated. So, yes, there is only one reality and the rest is 100% all lifestream shenanigans but.... that doesn't really mean that it can't/won't impact the planets current reality, even if just for a brief moment in time.

So, I think it's actually the opposite of what you're saying: Sephiroth doesn't want endless possibilities. He wants to change the nature of the LS to only have one, infinite reality where he rules supreme and there's no possibility for him to lose. That's why he's travelling from world to world, destroying them all w/ meteor while some other version of Aerith hides from him and refuses to 'accept her fate.'

 

[abzy1200]

You'd think if Claudia could be talking about a woman cloud wouldn't meet for five years and was currently dating his best friend that her amazing psychic powers would warn her about Sephiroth, since that's what it would take for her to have any information on a girl who lives on almost the exact opposite side of the planet.

No actually, she was talking about somebody other than Tifa...even though she only shortly prior found out that Cloud was telling Tifa his aspirations that he wasn't telling her...and Tifa isn't the most mature girl in the village that is Cloud's age...that Claudia also has a fondness for...nope, no way, Claudia was trying to throw him off.

Nevermind the fact that Cloud agrees to leave and never talk to Aerith again...and that he wakes up with stars in his eyes...and that his eyes almost perfectly mirror the sky that was above him and Tifa when they made the promise, colours and everything...and that afterwards he leaves to go to Sector Seven...where Tifa is, none of that is relevant!

Also ignore that Zack, Aerith's boyfriend, describes Aerith as a city mouse...exactly what Claudia says to avoid...and then nevermind the fact that Claudia tells Cloud to find him a woman that will take care of him, and makes sure he doesn't get into trouble, and who will lead him.

Which definitely doesn't happen here:



and not when Tifa goes through the effort to get him a place to himself, completely free.

Or when Tifa tries her best to keep Cloud close to monitor him while his mental state is rocky.

Not when she encourages him to start a business of his own.

Not when she is teaching him about stuff he missed out on learning due to his years spent as a lab rat.

Not when Cloud says "No matter what anyone else says...it's your opinion that counts"

Not when it's apparent to even their friends that Tifa is whipping him into shape.

Not when she decides to spend the last week of her life caring for a catatonic Cloud.

Not when she puts his mind back together

Not when "she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him."

Not when she has the utmost confidence in him, even after he has abandoned her with two children, one of which is terminally ill, and is not answering her calls.

Not when Tifa accepts him for who he is, regardless of his achievements in life.

Nope, Claudia is not goading Cloud to get with Tifa here as someone who can take care of him, she is completely out of the equation, actually. Claudia is speaking of an unknown third party.

Jesus, the more I think about it, the less and less this becomes a 'Clerith' moment and the more it becomes a Cloti moment.

 

[GamerSkull]

I could be wrong but I think the way the ultimania explained it is basically there's one planet and infinite 'possibilities' and which possibilities come to fruition is all based off of 'fate'. Nojima said that he's used Carl Jung's theory of the collective unconscious as inspiration for the retrilogy, which makes a lot of sense bc the LS is basically a shared state of unconsciousness for all living things on the planet.

In Ever Crisis, it's stated that the flow of the LS causes memories and knowledge to converge at specific points where it never may have in reality, thus creating an infinite amount of new worlds and possibilities. This is simply the nature of the lifestream and it's overall design. So, from that, we can infer that the whispers were created by the planet to help it differentiate reality from possibility because these 'possibilities' are on equal foot to reality--as proven by Cloud taking Aerith's white materia from one world to the next.

Now, in my opinion, the issue the narrative is presenting to the player is not that these worlds exist in general but rather that our protagonist is aware that they exist and has destroyed the whispers whose job is to keep reality and possibility separated. So, yes, there is only one reality and the rest is 100% all lifestream shenanigans but.... that doesn't really mean that it can't/won't impact the planets current reality, even if just for a brief moment in time.

So, I think it's actually the opposite of what you're saying: Sephiroth doesn't want endless possibilities. He wants to change the nature of the LS to only have one, infinite reality where he rules supreme and there's no possibilities for him to lose. That's why he's travelling from world to world, destroying them all w/ meteor as some other version of Aerith hides from him and refuses to 'accept her fate.'

I wonder if this means that… while these possibilities may continue to exist, they won’t ever collide once Sephiroth is defeated for good. Meaning they will always be segregated into the Lifestream.

I don’t even know if I’m making sense.

 

[Rin]

I wonder if this means that… while these possibilities may continue to exist, they won’t ever collide once Sephiroth is defeated for good. Meaning they will always be segregated into the Lifestream.

I don’t even know if I’m making sense.

Yeah, I think that's exactly where we're headed I just don't really know how they intend to portray that if ACC and all is still canon. Unless they remake it like Hamaguchi wants and then it doesn't matter lol

 

[Yoru]

So, I think it's actually the opposite of what you're saying: Sephiroth doesn't want endless possibilities. He wants to change the nature of the LS to only have one, infinite reality where he rules supreme and there's no possibility for him to lose. That's why he's travelling from world to world, destroying them all w/ meteor while some other version of Aerith hides from him and refuses to 'accept her fate.'

Sure his end goal is to have one nice fucked up reality.

But he's the one creating this worlds in the first place. To "fuck them up" at max and absorb the salt of people when they're merging with the main reality.

 

[Yoru]

Zack think it was Aerith who saved him. But no. It was Sephiroth all along. Why ? To put him in Worlds destined to die (Biggs getting shot/Aerith in a coma etc.) to feed from Zack's rage/anger/sadness/mourning


Sephiroth spitting to "destiny's" face and creating Worlds in Remake.


Aerith sending a countermeasure (the same who finds Zack when Sephiroth sends him off in Rebirth)


That's why the main theme of Rebirth's main visual is : Sephiroth breaking our hero's world.


It was always him.

 

[Hellenic]

Today, a big CT account posted about Sephiroth using “Ai” when talking about “the things we love” and Cloud using it too to describe Tifa (I still don’t know why the LTD is a thing BTW considering the depth of “Ai”).

And Nojima himself weighed in about “Ai” vs “Koi” (if you wonder “Ai” is husband/wife type of love, “Koi” is considered more selfish). Anyway will we get Aishiteru from Cloud to Tifa in p3 is what I ask xD because damn, how did Nojima ended up there on a CT thread lol.

View attachment 16682

Wait Nojima replying to a thread? That's super rare. I only ever see him post about his own stuff and sometimes like stuff, but he never seems to chime in.

 

[Hellenic]

They were actually responding to a tweet Nojima made about researching the differences between 「総受け」(total acceptance) and 「愛され」(loved), so the big CT account asked whether or not it's true that "Ai" /「愛 」(love) is not commonly used which led to that exchange you posted. (: Just for some additional context

Okay yeah that makes more sense. He wouldn't really participate in things himself.

 

[Rin]

Sure his end goal is to have one nice fucked up reality.

But he's the one creating this worlds in the first place. To "fuck them up" at max and absorb the salt of people when they're merging with the main reality.

View attachment 16714

Fair enough, though I think it's more complicated than this tweet can summarize since they're not allowed to post direct quotes. I think he's created/manipulated worlds where he 'wins' and is keeping them in a perpetual state of limbo w/ meteor looming in the distance (hence why Zack and Biggs can't tell how long it's been and such) and is using that to build his infinite reality bc all possibilities will lead to him as an inevitability.

Either way, it's normal for the LS to create worlds based on endless possibilities but it's not normal for those possibilities to merge or overtake reality. That's what Aerith is actually fighting against/disagreeing with him on bc that's how he plans on creating 'forever'.

Zack think it was Aerith who saved him. But no. It was Sephiroth all along. Why ? To put him in Worlds destined to die (Biggs getting shot/Aerith in a coma etc.) to feed from Zack's rage/anger/sadness/mourning
View attachment 16715

Sephiroth creating Worlds in Remake.
View attachment 16716

Aerith sending a countermeasure (the same who finds Zack when Sephiroth sends him off in Rebirth)
View attachment 16717

That's why the main theme of Rebirth's main visual is : Sephiroth breaking our hero's world.
View attachment 16718

It was always him.

As for this... I agree. Nomura describes Sephiroth as the man who tore Cloud and Zack's fates apart, and it's said in a way where it's clear that was never the intended path but it's the path they have to deal with now.

 

[Ryushikaze]

No actually, she was talking about somebody other than Tifa...even though only a few hours prior she found out that Cloud was telling Tifa his aspirations that he wasn't telling her...and Tifa isn't the most mature girl in the village that is Cloud's age...that Claudia also has a fondness for...nope, no way, Claudia was trying to throw him off.

Nevermind the fact that Cloud agrees to leave and never talk to Aerith again...and that he wakes up with stars in his eyes...and that his eyes almost perfectly mirror the sky that was above him and Tifa when they made the promise, colours and everything...and that afterwards he leaves to go to Sector Seven...where Tifa is, none of that is relevant!View attachment 16709View attachment 16710

Also ignore that Zack, Aerith's boyfriend, describes Aerith as a city mouse...exactly what Claudia says to avoid...and then nevermind the fact that Claudia tells Cloud to find him a woman that will take care of him, and makes sure he doesn't get into trouble, and who will lead him.

Which definitely doesn't happen here:

View attachment 16711View attachment 16712View attachment 16713

and not when Tifa goes through the effort to get him a place to himself, completely free.

Or when Tifa tries her best to keep Cloud close to monitor him while his mental state is rocky.

Not when she encourages him to start a business of his own.

Not when she is teaching him about stuff he missed out on learning due to his years spent as a lab rat.

Not when Cloud says "No matter what anyone else says...it's your opinion that counts"

Not when it's apparent to even their friends that Tifa is whipping him into shape.

Not when she decides to spend the last week of her life caring for a catatonic Cloud.

Not when she puts his mind back together

Not when "she is also the woman who understands him all too well and devotedly supports the mentally-weak side of him."

Not when she has the utmost confidence in him, even after he has abandoned her with two children, one of which is terminally ill, and is not answering her calls.

Not when Tifa accepts him for who he is, regardless of his achievements in life.

Nope, Claudia is not goading Cloud to get with Tifa here as someone who can take care of him, she is completely out of the equation, actually. Claudia is speaking of an unknown third party.

Jesus, the more I think about it, the less and less this becomes a 'Clerith' moment and the more it becomes a Cloti moment.

It's always been a C/T moment if you think about it.
Though I do need to correct you, as her saying the line about finding a girlfriend is during the early days of the nibelheim incident, and she learned of Cloud's ambitions for SOLDIER from Tifa a day or two before Cloud arrived, as that was before her meeting with the player turk in Before Crisis which was a short time before their arrival.
Am I splitting hairs? YES. Is it important to be accurate and precise? Also yes.

I wonder if this means that… while these possibilities may continue to exist, they won’t ever collide once Sephiroth is defeated for good. Meaning they will always be segregated into the Lifestream.

I don’t even know if I’m making sense.

No, that makes sense. I suspect the idea that the lifestream creates alternate worlds of possibility that normal just drift away and fizzle or maybe create new worlds is part of the process of the life of a world.

Sure his end goal is to have one nice fucked up reality.

But he's the one creating this worlds in the first place. To "fuck them up" at max and absorb the salt of people when they're merging with the main reality.

View attachment 16714

I don't think he's creating them, just subvert them to his own end.

 

[Yoru]

I don't think he's creating them, just subvert them to his own end.

Defying fate = Create a possibility, a world.

Changing Zack's fate is creating a world where Zack can run free.

I'm not saying he created the concept of Worlds within the Lifestream. I'm saying he's creating new Worlds that suits his desire of a "black lifestream" made of negative human feelings