SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryeleigh]

It’s such a horrible thing to do to a character. Bring him back to life, but then kill him off again but now with the added knowledge that the woman he fought so hard to reunite with now loves his best friend instead.

You know, I never did get a reply to the question of what the devs are doing with Zack then if he isn't going to get a reunion with Aerith, lol. I wonder if we scared pringlessingles off?

 

[GamerSkull]

You know, I never did get a reply to the question of what the devs are doing with Zack then if he isn't going to get a reunion with Aerith, lol. I wonder if we scared pringlessingles off?

The problem is Zack’s only arc that’s left is figuring out where he stands with Aerith. Maybe some Cloud closure too but that’s it.

He’s going to show up in Part 3 for sure. So they need actually satisfyingly close that arc off.

 

[null]

I don't really agree. Natsuo is legit gaslighted to leave Rui because "Hina made sacrifices you know". I'm sorry but it's just ass and a terrible plot twist. It never was forshadowed. Kei just decided to subvert expectations for her own vision of "Romantic love". But whatever, we're not here to discuss that.

I still think it won't happen in FF7, because they're just telling the same story. Just expanding it. We're on the same rails. I don't see why they would change Cloud character and motivation in life "just because".

Natsuo wasn’t gaslit by anyone, and it had nothing to do with guilt or sacrifices. If he knew at any point that Hina was still in love with him and was lying to protect him, he would have gone straight back to her. It’s not the first time he’s left Rui behind to run to her. For her part, Rui ghosted Natsuo once over Hina, then again after he got stabbed, then dumped him at his low point when he had writer’s block. Every time because she was guilty and insecure, just like the final one. Rui leaving Natsuo was foreshadowed the entire story.

You’re right this isn’t the place for this, and I’m not going to harp on it further here. I’m only bothering because the author gets way too much harassment over something she did a mostly good job with. There’s a mountain of buildup that gets handwaved by people calling it nonsense. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen you defend the FFVII team for similar reasons.

As far as FFVII, in terms of counting chickens before they hatch, it’s less about characterization and more about confirmation. People want this debate confirmed dead, bagged, tagged, killed with fire with absolutely no room to continue. I think we’re in a better place now than ever for that confirmation to happen. But I’m not celebrating until I actually see it happen in my living room.

 

[GamerSkull]

Natsuo wasn’t gaslit by anyone, and it had nothing to do with guilt or sacrifices. If he knew at any point that Hina was still in love with him and was lying to protect him, he would have gone straight back to her. It’s not the first time he’s left Rui behind to run to her. For her part, Rui ghosted Natsuo once over Hina, then again after he got stabbed, then dumped him at his low point when he had writer’s block. Every time because she was guilty and insecure, just like the final one. Rui leaving Natsuo was foreshadowed the entire story.

You’re right this isn’t the place for this, and I’m not going to harp on it further here. I’m only bothering because the author gets way too much harassment over something she did a mostly good job with. There’s a mountain of buildup that gets handwaved by people calling it nonsense. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen you defend the FFVII team for similar reasons.

As far as FFVII, in terms of counting chickens before they hatch, it’s less about characterization and more about confirmation. People want this debate confirmed dead, bagged, tagged, killed with fire with absolutely no room to continue. I think we’re in a better place now than ever for that confirmation to happen. But I’m not celebrating until I actually see it happen in my living room.

Yeah. I’m not 100% convinced until Part 3 confirms it. Until then, all I can be is optimistic but cautious and prepared to be dissapointed.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Natsuo wasn’t gaslit by anyone, and it had nothing to do with guilt or sacrifices. If he knew at any point that Hina was still in love with him and was lying to protect him, he would have gone straight back to her. It’s not the first time he’s left Rui behind to run to her. For her part, Rui ghosted Natsuo once over Hina, then again after he got stabbed, then dumped him at his low point when he had writer’s block. Every time because she was guilty and insecure, just like the final one. Rui leaving Natsuo was foreshadowed the entire story.

You’re right this isn’t the place for this, and I’m not going to harp on it further here. I’m only bothering because the author gets way too much harassment over something she did a mostly good job with. There’s a mountain of buildup that gets handwaved by people calling it nonsense. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen you defend the FFVII team for similar reasons.

As far as FFVII, in terms of counting chickens before they hatch, it’s less about characterization and more about confirmation. People want this debate confirmed dead, bagged, tagged, killed with fire with absolutely no room to continue. I think we’re in a better place now than ever for that confirmation to happen. But I’m not celebrating until I actually see it happen in my living room.

That’s what decades of SE being weird about what should be pretty straightforward will do.

I see a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, feel like we’re finally just going for it… but whisper in the back of my mind still says “they will always leave room for doubt”

 

[GamerSkull]

That’s what decades of SE being weird about what should be pretty straightforward will do.

I see a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, feel like we’re finally just going for it… but whisper in the back of my mind still says “they will always leave room for doubt”

It’s amazing that it’s gotten so bad that even a kiss isn’t enough to seal the deal.

 

[Rin]

Maybe yes. It's hard to tell and I'm not even sure we have all the right informations for now.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure the "defying Fate" is a Sephiroth's tag line. It was never the party's intent.

Yeah, ofc everything's just speculation but all good villains gotta manipulate our heroes into doing their bidding and can't be just Cloud who falls for it every time, in my opinion lmao.

Plus, I think if Aerith unintentionally saved Zack from his fate, it's a very good sign for SE ending the LTD unambiguously because it's a very romantic concept. We know that Aerith felt Zack's spirit return to the planet at the end of CC but she chose to live in a state of denial about it, both in the OG and in Remake. Then, at the end of Midgar Expressway, she's shown his last stand and the camera zooms in on her face in a state of pure state of horror as she's forced to watch the truth unfold.

Of course, she knows things must go as fate intended but... she loves Zack so much. She wanted to reunite with him so badly. And he was so close to making it back to her. It's only natural that her heart longs for a possibility where he made it home. Like a good villain, Sephiroth knows that and I think it'd actually be genius if he used that against her.

 

[SilverSisu]

That’s what decades of SE being weird about what should be pretty straightforward will do.

I see a kiss between Cloud and Tifa, feel like we’re finally just going for it… but whisper in the back of my mind still says “they will always leave room for doubt”

Especially when ultimania stated that GS dates are just fanservice and don't have any effect on story.

I have my doubts as well. However maybe it is just me inhaling unhealthy amount of copium but they can't bring Zack back just to cuck him.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah, ofc everything's just speculation but all good villains gotta manipulate our heroes into doing their bidding and can't be just Cloud who falls for it every time, in my opinion lmao.

Plus, I think if Aerith unintentionally saved Zack from his fate, it's a very good sign for SE ending the LTD unambiguously because it's a very romantic concept. We know that Aerith felt Zack's spirit return to the planet at the end of CC but she chose to live in a state of denial about it, both in the OG and in Remake. Then, at the end of Midgar Expressway, she's shown his last stand and the camera zooms in on her face in a state of pure state of horror as she's forced to watch the truth unfold.

Of course, she knows things must go as fate intended but... she loves Zack so much. She wanted to reunite with him so badly. And he was so close to making it back to her. It's only natural that her heart longs for a possibility where he made it home. Like a good villain, Sephiroth knows that and I think it'd actually be genius if he used that against her.

Aerith getting somewhat baited and needing to practice the lesson Cloud has to learn ( letting go and accepting things for how they are ) would make me 180 on my reservations about her in Remake so far.

1 admonishment, 1 instant where she’s more wrong than right is all I need to re-humanize this near goddess-tier character.

 

[Yoru]

Natsuo wasn’t gaslit by anyone, and it had nothing to do with guilt or sacrifices. If he knew at any point that Hina was still in love with him and was lying to protect him, he would have gone straight back to her. It’s not the first time he’s left Rui behind to run to her. For her part, Rui ghosted Natsuo once over Hina, then again after he got stabbed, then dumped him at his low point when he had writer’s block. Every time because she was guilty and insecure, just like the final one. Rui leaving Natsuo was foreshadowed the entire story.

You’re right this isn’t the place for this, and I’m not going to harp on it further here. I’m only bothering because the author gets way too much harassment over something she did a mostly good job with. There’s a mountain of buildup that gets handwaved by people calling it nonsense. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen you defend the FFVII team for similar reasons.

As far as FFVII, in terms of counting chickens before they hatch, it’s less about characterization and more about confirmation. People want this debate confirmed dead, bagged, tagged, killed with fire with absolutely no room to continue. I think we’re in a better place now than ever for that confirmation to happen. But I’m not celebrating until I actually see it happen in my living room.

Just answering for this :

Her story is shit. You won't change my mind. You can't commit so much in one direction to just change gears 3 chapters before the end because "it was always the end goal" just no. You can't look me in the eyes and tell me it's so romantic when you're niece is also you're step daughter. WHATEVER. Just wanted to say that I've never harassed anyone. And will never ask to do so. I read her shorts stories and her new manga after that. She missed one time. Maybe she won't the next.

And yes you saw me defend the FF7 team because WE DON'T HAVE THE END OF THE STORY. People are saying shit based on internet theories. We can't judge a story at the middle of its developpement.

Part 3 is released and it's a mess ? We don't understand anything ? Cloud is marrying Aerith ? Yeah you'll have the right to be pissed and to judge the quality of this trilogy. Without harassing of course.


EDIT : I'm sorry. Let's not talk about it. I hated it. I'm still pissed about it. She did something wrong. The end. I don't want to be rude and an asshole when you're just defending your POV. I'm just not equipped to do it in good faith. I'm just too angry at this manga. So yeah.. I'm sorry for being rude. I didn't want to. Let's not talk about it.

 

[Rin]

Aerith getting somewhat baited and needing to practice the lesson Cloud has to learn ( letting go and accepting things for how they are ) would make me 180 on my reservations about her in Remake so far.

1 admonishment, 1 instant where she’s more wrong than right is all I need to re-humanize this near goddess-tier character.

Yeah, ofc it's just a theory but I don't like the concept of "omni Aerith" for exactly the reason you wrote here: it puts her in this weird goddess territory and they literally created Minerva for that in CC so just... use Minerva? lol But that's probably an unpopular opinion.

Anyway, I do think Aerith is meant to represent human emotions and "life" more than people associate her with loss and death. She rejected her lineage because she wanted to be normal. She had a hard time accepting herself at the most basic level. She can't accept the loss of her dead boyfriend. She's still (justifiably) angry about the way she grew up and the horrible things she had to experience and witness. She even refused to mourn for her dead mother as a child.

Aerith may have "accepted" that she can't change fate in Remake but that certainly does not mean that she had made peace with it, which leaves the door open wide enough for Sephiroth to stick his foot in. She's meant to be someone who feels everything and feels it very deeply. Sephiroth would be a fool not to use it against her, in my opinion.

 

[Ryeleigh]

About the Sasuga Kei conversation... you can all take my words with a grain of salt since I haven't read Domestic Girlfriend but I did read her first work, GE: Good Ending, and it just sounds like she didn't improve much from that??

As for the LTD, I wonder how much of the misunderstanding surrounding CT and the Lifestream scene stems from extremists and "both girls" thinking that Cloud was confessing his crush on Sephiroth on the water tower, lol?

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Urge to make extremely inflammatory joke rising.

I am sitting on your shoulder. I am chanting "do it, do it do it."

You could say it was everything we said, in the end.

Pretty nearly.

Yes, make sure to take sanity breaks.

In Soviet Russia LTD Threads, sanity break you.

Hit bedrock and started drilling.

Then fired up the integrated retro rockets and launched into space from the other side of the planet.

Certainly none spared for self reflection.

You folks in this here thread who routinely check yourselves, asking if you're biased, if you're reading the text wrong, etc. Know that the people Ryu and I are reminiscing about have never done this even once.

You wound up naming the race of super-duper proto Orks from 40k. The Skyward creatures are the Kikwi.

Kikwi, that's the one. Yes, they are too are little fuckers, albeit less so than modern Koroks.

I kinda wanna turn Link loose in 40k and see how long he lasts now btw.

Yeah, he always seemed to be one of those "accusation is confession" types.

A sadly common type.

Vegeta not shouting challenge, level impossible.

I mean even going full guerilla warfare on Namek, he couldn't keep quiet for long.

I shall simply return to being eldritch and ageless when it occurs.

No reason not to after all.

Or skilled hand to hand combatants.

Especially if you're not especially skilled with the weapon. By all means, throw it in hopes of a good hit but mostly to free your hands for punching and grappling.

Maybe the Caltists need a bit less of the kush, then.

Might help, couldn't hurt.

Having the crossover point also helps us learn how the lie mutates over time.

I believe I've seen you and Tres accurately predict how it would next mutate in the near future for some such lies.

Plus they're technically your kids and people get mad when you try and sell those...

Not t the Housing Rights Debate you thought you'd see, eh kids?

I mean I'm proud of the work I did but yeah, I was just stating a fact.

Yup.

I think literally everyone, on both sides said it was kinda fucked up in general. That's how dumb it was.

When the entire battlefield stops to stare incredulously, you know you've fucked up.

It's a bit of a self causing time loop, but those are pretty common in fiction (See also: DrakeNeiR)

Indeed.

"Even if X were part of the narrative, it wouldn't help your cause" is a pretty common response to CA pulling in outside sources.

It really is.

It's a useful accessory. Shame it didn't protect against instant death

In my day it was all ribbons or tetra elementals.

I find this is a reflection of the very common type of Manichean thinking that permeates the internet nowadays. There is no option for nuance. One flub, one step out of the approved discourse, and you are unpersoned. It's extremely reductive and unhelpful.

Good old tribalism. You're either with us or you can die with the rest kinda shit.

I have to assume the actual kill counts in general are much lower than we experience in game. Not that there are none, but that Cloud and Co do their best to keep human deaths to a minimum.

You would expect characters like Tifa and Cait to angst more if the party had actually killed this many troopers.

 

[Rin]

You know, I never did get a reply to the question of what the devs are doing with Zack then if he isn't going to get a reunion with Aerith, lol. I wonder if we scared pringlessingles off?

Omg I forgot about them lol

 

[abzy1200]

Especially when ultimania stated that GS dates are just fanservice and don't have any effect on story.

Small correction: the dates aren't 'fanservice'. If they really were, then why didn't they give Aerith a kiss aswell?

It's always been a C/T moment if you think about it.
Though I do need to correct you, as her saying the line about finding a girlfriend is during the early days of the nibelheim incident, and she learned of Cloud's ambitions for SOLDIER from Tifa a day or two before Cloud arrived, as that was before her meeting with the player turk in Before Crisis which was a short time before their arrival.
Am I splitting hairs? YES. Is it important to be accurate and precise? Also yes.

my bad, fixed it, thanks

I was watching Welonz playthrough today and she got to the ending. She feels that Aerith genuinely confessed. I’m wondering if we’ve interpreted this scene wrong or something, because it makes me think most people took that scene as a confession, I guess.

I’m just second-guessing myself on how the S5 Dream was portrayed.

having a larger following doesn't mean your word is more valuable than someone else's, I'm sure you know that already, but it's just something I felt I should say to try and put your mind at ease.

and also, if it actually was a confession, that's even worse, because Cloud's answer is 100% deflection then. His reaction was essentially: "Why are you acting weird today?" to a confession? I don't buy it

Which is a far cry from Cloud's reaction to Tifa saying she could be getting ahead of herself in regards to what they are to each other.

 

[SilverSisu]

Small correction: the dates aren't 'fanservice'. If they really were, then why didn't they give Aerith a kiss aswell?

Devs statement, not mine. GS dates have no effect on story. It was stated in Rebirth ultimania.

 

[abzy1200]

Devs statement, not mine. GS dates have no effect on story. It was stated in Rebirth ultimania.

the exact quote would be "slightly detached from the story" not "fanservice", that's an interpretation you took and ran with. They're "slightly detached" because they conflict with each other from a continuity pov, they can't all happen on the same playthrough, they can't all happen at the same time.

This is not an AU where Cloud is a completely different person in each of the dates, it's the same Cloud in all of them.

again, where is Aerith's kiss if it's really just fanservice? Because that's even worse, it means Aerith couldn't even get a fanservice kiss.

 

[GamerSkull]

Devs statement, not mine. GS dates have no effect on story. It was stated in Rebirth ultimania.

I think that’s more because they’re “self-contained” and therefore won’t actually affect the story in that moment. Not literally “not canon.”

 

[abzy1200]

Devs statement, not mine. GS dates have no effect on story. It was stated in Rebirth ultimania.

It also doesn't really matter if they are fanservice or not, Cloud and Tifa almost kiss each other 'non-optionally'. here

 

[GamerSkull]

I definitely think the devs are being pretty wishy washy with what they say in interviews and in the Ultimania. I wish they’d just commit.

It’s one of the reasons for insecurities going into Part 3.

This is the problem: in trying to appease everyone you appease nobody and so I get the feeling both sides would be annoyed if they try to remained ambiguous in Part 3.

 

[null]

Just answering for this :

Her story is shit. You won't change my mind. You can't commit so much in one direction to just change gears 3 chapters before the end because "it was always the end goal" just no. You can't look me in the eyes and tell me it's so romantic when you're niece is also you're step daughter. WHATEVER. Just wanted to say that I've never harassed anyone. And will never ask to do so. I read her shorts stories and her new manga after that. She missed one time. Maybe she won't the next.

And yes you saw me defend the FF7 team because WE DON'T HAVE THE END OF THE STORY. People are saying shit based on internet theories. We can't judge a story at the middle of its developpement.

Part 3 is released and it's a mess ? We don't understand anything ? Cloud is marrying Aerith ? Yeah you'll have the right to be pissed and to judge the quality of this trilogy. Without harassing of course.


EDIT : I'm sorry. Let's not talk about it. I hated it. I'm still pissed about it. She did something wrong. The end. I don't want to be rude and an asshole when you're just defending your POV. I'm just not equipped to do it in good faith. I'm just too angry at this manga. So yeah.. I'm sorry for being rude. Let's not talk about it.

Hey, no worries man.

 

[Yoru]

I definitely think the devs are being pretty wishy washy with what they say in interviews and in the Ultimania. I wish they’d just commit.

It’s one of the reasons for insecurities going into Part 3.

This is the problem: in trying to appease everyone you appease nobody and so I get the feeling both sides would be annoyed if they try to remained ambiguous in Part 3.

Yeah that's my point too. Stop the PR talk.

That was more than 25 years ago. I had my interpretation. I have my own definitive answer. I just want everyone to know it now. Whatever the side. Let's be honest and just say to us what the characters are to each other. In simple words. Not this "important woman" thing.

 

[Hellenic]

Aerith is allowed to move on from Zack.

Cloud though, he needs to pine after a dead woman forever.

Was there ever given logic for this thing? Or was it always just Cleriths ignoring if people asked "what about Cloud moving on?"

 

[GamerSkull]

Was there ever given logic for this thing? Or was it always just Cleriths ignoring if people asked "what about Cloud moving on?"

Not that I’ve seen. I’ve always seen people say Aerith should be able to move on from Zack without addressing the elephant in the room that… the same applies to Cloud when she dies.

 

[imach0c0]

Yeah, ofc everything's just speculation but all good villains gotta manipulate our heroes into doing their bidding and can't be just Cloud who falls for it every time, in my opinion lmao.

Plus, I think if Aerith unintentionally saved Zack from his fate, it's a very good sign for SE ending the LTD unambiguously because it's a very romantic concept. We know that Aerith felt Zack's spirit return to the planet at the end of CC but she chose to live in a state of denial about it, both in the OG and in Remake. Then, at the end of Midgar Expressway, she's shown his last stand and the camera zooms in on her face in a state of pure state of horror as she's forced to watch the truth unfold.

Of course, she knows things must go as fate intended but... she loves Zack so much. She wanted to reunite with him so badly. And he was so close to making it back to her. It's only natural that her heart longs for a possibility where he made it home. Like a good villain, Sephiroth knows that and I think it'd actually be genius if he used that against her.

When Zack was sitting at the church, Sephiroth didn't seem to acknowledge Zack's existence when he was walking up the steps to the church. Even when Zack gets his attention, Sephiroth doesn't seem to care and banishes him to the other dimension. Based on that, Sephiroth gave an impression that Zack is not of importance or use to him.

How do you think Sephiroth could use Zack against Aerith?