SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Stiggie]

I just don't get the big deal about these characters fucking up and saying the wrong thing sometimes. Like people were saying Tifa is "toxic" for getting mad at Cloud in Kalm and asking where he's been all these years after she was forced to survive and suffer on her own. As if that's not the most realistic thing a woman who is fed up would say out of frustration. This didn't make her a bad person, it made her human.

I find it so irritating that the only thing this scene evokes in some people's minds is "what a slut."

Like. What's wrong with you? A girl survives a horrible night, she's alone. No home. No money. It was hard, but she got through it.

And the "first thing" her dear "childhood friend" says to her is: hey, I think this might be bullshit, because you're supposed to be dead.

Of course you're sad and mad. Even more when from her POV, dude wasn't even here.

And the only thing he has to say is : I can't tell you. Classified information.

It's even worse, I feel like people are forgetting what actually happened here from the PoV of Tifa. It's not that Cloud wasn't there for her or something, it's that Clouds Mother, his town, and everyone he knew INCLUDING HER as far as he knew was straight up murdered and Cloud apparently gave so few fucks about that that in 5 years time he seemingly never thought to even check up, or take revenge, or hell, even quit the company as far as she knows. Everyone is dead and this asshole is sitting there straight up lying to her about it as far as she knows. And then this motherfucker has the nerve to question HER, who had to go through hell to recover, survive, and then joined an anti-shinra terrorist group to take revenge while this motherfucker is still bragging about having been a soldier.

 

[Yoru]

It's even worse, I feel like people are forgetting what actually happened here from the PoV of Tifa. It's not that Cloud wasn't there for her or something, it's that Clouds Mother, his town, and everyone he knew INCLUDING HER as far as he knew was straight up murdered and Cloud gave so few fucks about that than in 5 years time he apparently never thought to even check up, or take revenge, or hell, even quit the company as far as she knows. Everyone is dead and this asshole is sitting there straight up lying to her about it as far as she knows. And then this motherfucker has the nerve to question HER, who had to go through hell to recover, survive, and then joined an anti-shinra terrorist group to take revenge while this motherfucker is still bragging about having been a soldier.

Forgot to mention that in Japanese she's not even mad at him. She's just super sad. Because it implies their reunion was not a happy one, since the dude just questioned her identity.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah, I don’t understand this. Tifa is bad because she challenges Cloud’s story? She’s bad because she had a negative reaction to being called an imposter?

Let me get this straight, people are not allowed to get angry with Cloud? They should just accept it when he says stupid shit? Is that what a good love interest should do? Nod and say yes to her partner even when he’s not making any fucking sense?

Cloud’s issues are understandable but is Tifa supposed to be omniscient?

 

[Sacky]

It's even worse, I feel like people are forgetting what actually happened here from the PoV of Tifa. It's not that Cloud wasn't there for her or something, it's that Clouds Mother, his town, and everyone he knew INCLUDING HER as far as he knew was straight up murdered and Cloud apparently gave so few fucks about that that in 5 years time he seemingly never thought to even check up, or take revenge, or hell, even quit the company as far as she knows. Everyone is dead and this asshole is sitting there straight up lying to her about it as far as she knows. And then this motherfucker has the nerve to question HER, who had to go through hell to recover, survive, and then joined an anti-shinra terrorist group to take revenge while this motherfucker is still bragging about having been a soldier.

People really don't think do they. I saw people defending Cloud in AC aswell and Tifa had no right to snap at him because hes grieving. Well idc if he is greiving hes not going to try and help marlene and Denzel so someone has to talk him into that. That scene was necessary cause Cloud is a very flawed character who isn't in the right at all there. But since some people take Cloud making mistakes as a personal attack we get people defending every single part of his character.

 

[GamerSkull]

People really don't think do they. I saw people defending Cloud in AC aswell and Tifa had no right to snap at him because hes grieving. Well idc if he is greiving hes not going to try and help marlene and Denzel so someone has to talk him into that. That scene was necessary cause Cloud is a very flawed character who isn't in the right at all there. But since some people take Cloud making mistakes as a personal attack we get people defending every single part of his character.

Cloud is great but just because he has issues doesn’t mean he can’t also be called out on them.

It’s stupid to act like he’s always right. In AC, he is wrong. He basically says “I can’t save the kids that I obviously love cuz I’m a terrible father, the Turks should go instead”.

Would you respect any father figure that refuses to protect his children out of fear?

There no reason to act like Cloud could do no wrong, and calling him out on it when he’s wrong does not make Tifa a bad person.

Let’s not forget she basically immediately forgives him after he almost kills her. LMAO

 

[Yoru]

People really don't think do they. I saw people defending Cloud in AC aswell and Tifa had no right to snap at him because hes grieving. Well idc if he is greiving hes not going to try and help marlene and Denzel so someone has to talk him into that. That scene was necessary cause Cloud is a very flawed character who isn't in the right at all there. But since some people take Cloud making mistakes as a personal attack we get people defending every single part of his character.

I love Cloud. But i'm really "unconfortable" with people who refuse the slightest criticism.

Sure he has problems. Sure he's not himself for the most part. But it doesn't have to stop you from pointing them out.

He's done some shit. And it is the fact he's trying to correct his mistakes, which makes him an endearing character.

 

[GamerSkull]

I love Cloud. But i'm really "unconfortable" with people who refuse the slightest criticism.

Sure he has problems. Sure he's not himself for the most part. But it doesn't have to stop you from pointing them out.

He's done some shit. And it is the fact he's trying to correct his mistakes, which makes him an endearing character.

Really makes you think, why doesn’t Barret get hate for being an ass to him at the beginning of Remake? Hell, he fucking slaps him in Gongaga.

Also, why doesn’t Marlene get hate for yelling at him while hiding under Vincent’s coat?

Wonder if there’s a deeper reason Tifa is singled out?

 

[Yoru]

Really makes you think, why doesn’t Barret get hate for being an ass to him at the beginning of Remake?

Worst part being : Tifa is not even mean with him.

She's doing what Claudia wanted for Cloud. A girl telling him when he's a silly goose.

 

[Sacky]

Really makes you think, why doesn’t Barret get hate for being an ass to him at the beginning of Remake? Hell, he fucking slaps him in Gongaga.

Also, why doesn’t Marlene get hate for yelling at him while hiding under Vincent’s coat?

Wonder if there’s a deeper reason Tifa is singled out?

its all tools in the propoganda
Marlene - can be used for family of friends argument with barret so they don't want
to say anything bad about them. Unless its to change the conversation and thats the only time they speak about these characters.
Tifa is the target thats why she is signled out they have to downplay all aspects so if she argues against Cloud its twisted into Aerith
would have understood more or he will only be happy if Aerith is alive

 

[Yoru]

Wonder if there’s a deeper reason Tifa is singled out?

They're just mad. Because even if Tifa was really mean to him... what do we see? That Cloud listens to her, that he makes an effort, that her opinion matters more than anything to him.

He's remembering her "lessons from Sector 7", he's telling her that he's making an effort to try to get along with the rest of Avalanche. After Kalm, he comes to apologize himself.

And that pisses them off. Because yes. Cloud is strangely extra attentive to just one person.

 

[Eerie]

I'm at Temple of the Ancients and Cloud/Tifa is heavily being pushed despite my C/A playthrough. It's super awkward.

Cloud is going crazy, much to no one's surprise. The team is hella under reacting to his behaviour. I am actually super confused at this point, because I can't decide if Tifa is the only dumbass waifu, or if Aerith is as well. I guess with Aerith I can at least assume she can see the future or some shit.

I'm so tired. They fumbled the romance so hard. So hard that the entire plot feels so fucking broken.

I wanted to come back to this comment because the reverse was actually one of my big problem with the OG romance: it relied on a twist. So even if you picked the Tifa route, you still had CA pushed onto you even if you didn't picture Cloud acting that way towards Aerith, you still had CA moments but when you picked the CA route, you didn't have any build up towards CT (except the promise scene that was badly written in), even though they were the canon pair.

Remake and Rebirth really corrected that, as Nomura put it for Rebirth, they focused on CT so that players would understand their feelings. So even if you go the CA "route", you still get a lot of CT, hell even Aerith's goodbye scene at the end is really odd on the CT side (Tifa's sadness and Cloud ignoring it), and you know there is a build up for p3 there. On the reverse, you can spend Remake + Rebirth absolutely clueless about CA because you can completely see their interactions as friendship, until you get to either the CA date in GS (not guaranteed) or even further away on the dream date (yes Welonz totally missed Aerith's interest in Cloud and she interpreted all their scenes as friendship only). So whatever you chose to push, you will get CT, because this time instead of a twist, we're having a proper build up that will lead into the NC and LS scenes, it won't take people by surprise.

As such I really don't get how they "fumbled the romance" because it's pretty well done to me. I also don't see either Tifa or Aerith as "dumb waifu", they're reacting pretty much how they are/would given the information they have, imho.

 

[Hellenic]

Yeah, a majority of FF7 fans don't actually care about the LTD. Perhaps they have their biases but most just accept the story as is. The people that take part in the LTD are probably just really loud (and this goes for both sides) that often it might seem like it is the sole contributing factor in the popularity of FF7 when it's probably closer to 15-20% if even that.

I really dislike this mindset that this game is solely selling thanks to the LTD. As if an FF game needs one to sell. Sure some portion of the money comes from that crap too i'm sure, but it's definitely not the majority at all.

 

[pxl_pushr]

I really dislike this mindset that this game is solely selling thanks to the LTD. As if an FF game needs one to sell. Sure some portion of the money comes from that crap too i'm sure, but it's definitely not the majority at all.

Makes more sense to me for it to impact merch sales vs actual game sales. Enough to change to the story? Not in a major way, but maybe in what gets more time and attention to detail.

So many factors go into game sales that I think it’s disingenuous to point one thing and say “this is the reason X game isn’t selling” and then use the factual stats to push a more opinionated interpretation.

I’m curious what will happen when part 3 is about to come out and when it does come out. I imagine Remake and Rebirth will be on sale by then and that may see an uptick in sales since people want the full story.

 

[abzy1200]

Yeah, the problem here is seeing them as 'routes' in the first place, when they aren't really. It's not like Persona where you spend time with the person, and then if you make the right choices they become your girlfriend.

Even if you go down the Aerith 'route', you still get Cloud remembering Zack, his only best friend for a while there, who he now remembers is dead, and who was head over heels for Aerith. On Aerith's GS date, Cloud declines her invite to sit next to her, and during the date she proceeds to say: "Cloud, you're not him, but that's okay", and then "just until the end of the ride", real romantic.

Even on the 'non-optional dates', if you can even call them that, she spends a bit too much time speaking about Cloud and Tifa's relationship with each other for these to be considered 'dates' between Cloud and Aerith. These aren't candlelit dinners they're on together...they're spending like 3 minutes talking with each other in whichever place they are currently (mostly about Cloud and Tifa, at that)

Also, if you choose the Aerith 'route', there is still an abundance of Cloti development throughout literally the entire game, bar the last chapter. And as I said, most 'Clerith' development is hardly even Clerith.

In short, there are no 'routes' here, you can choose to see more Cloti, or not.

 

[Yoru]

I really dislike this mindset that this game is solely selling thanks to the LTD. As if an FF game needs one to sell. Sure some portion of the money comes from that crap too i'm sure, but it's definitely not the majority at all.

I began my FF journey with the release of FF8. For me, it's always been about RPGs with beautiful characters, fantastic worlds seen through Japanese eyes, great music and engaging stories with twists.

Speaking of FF8. This is the game that was marketed as a love story. Much more so than the others. Every FF has a love story, but it's not the main attraction of the games. It allows people to get involved when there's no more news about the games, of course. But it's not the basis of the game.

So yes, the LTD is a useful community to keep the characters in people's minds, but I don't think it carries much weight. The two girls should have been kissed if that was the case. Optional scene or not.

 

[Empyrea]

I wanted to come back to this comment because the reverse was actually one of my big problem with the OG romance: it relied on a twist. So even if you picked the Tifa route, you still had CA pushed onto you even if you didn't picture Cloud acting that way towards Aerith, you still had CA moments but when you picked the CA route, you didn't have any build up towards CT (except the promise scene that was badly written in), even though they were the canon pair.

This is was my OG experience, and pretty much why, for the longest time, FF7 wasn't all that revolutionary (or even great, honestly) to me. Sure, it tackled some heavy topics, but I've seen enough media do the same. Even Aerith's death was ho-hum for me, apart from the slight shock when I realized that they were serious about her not coming back. To its credit, I do recall thinking it was at least a far better experience than the next game I played in the franchise: FF8.

The only reason FF7 stayed in the back of my brain longer is that at least the characters were endearing, if a bit bare bones, and that, for reasons I couldn't fathom, I found out it had a longstanding LTD that I could swear was never a thing.

 

[Edley]

https://vxtwitter.com/withteaaa/status/1789658423061274689

 

[pxl_pushr]

Yeah, the problem here is seeing them as 'routes' in the first place, when they aren't really. It's not like Persona where you spend time with the person, and then if you make the right choices they become your girlfriend.

Even if you go down the Aerith 'route', you still get Cloud remembering Zack, his only best friend for a while there, who he now remembers is dead, and who was head over heels for Aerith. On Aerith's GS date, Cloud declines her invite to sit next to her, and during the date she proceeds to say: "Cloud, you're not him, but that's okay", and then "just until the end of the ride", real romantic.

Even on the 'non-optional dates', if you can even call them that, she spends a bit too much time speaking about Cloud and Tifa's relationship with each other for these to be considered 'dates' between Cloud and Aerith. These aren't candlelit dinners they're on together...they're spending like 3 minutes talking with each other in whichever place they are currently (mostly about Cloud and Tifa, at that)

Also, if you choose the Aerith 'route', there is still an abundance of Cloti development throughout literally the entire game, bar the last chapter. And as I said, most 'Clerith' development is hardly even Clerith.

In short, there are no 'routes' here, you can choose to see more Cloti, or not.

I think you’re touching on why the devs weren’t exactly keen on doing an affinity system themselves ( and imo they should’ve trusted their gut and axed it, regardless of nostalgia ).

It makes Aerith’s Cloud-centric goodbye feel very out of left field if you don’t do enough stuff with her, and it makes more sense in Rebirth’s iteration of events for Nanaki to get this heartfelt farewell or Tifa instead of Cloud.

Like I’ve said before, Tifa and Cloud’s relationship feels way more dynamic than Aerith and Cloud’s more static one. Aerith never pissed Cloud off or vice versa, they hardly have a disagreement on the level of Tifa and Cloud’s Kalm spat. It’s a steady growth in friendship between the two, and that’s okay… but then why does Cloud get singled out when it’s time to say goodbye?

Right now it feels less like a natural part of the story and more like something added because fans expect it from prior knowledge. Maybe Part 3 will retroactively justify it, but it’s still odd.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Aerith hate posts/blogs/tweets aren't appreciated in this thread thank you very much.

Edit: I apologise if this seemed like a harsh/over reaction, I just think Aerith genuinely wants to meet the real Cloud, doesn't have any nefarious agenda, and it would be the equivalent of me posting mock ups from anti Tifa/Cloti accounts

 

[Eerie]

Another argument in favour of Rosa's dress really is Tifa's:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1789674688500899842

Only Tifa has the wing earring. IIRC white feather is one of her symbol, as she has one on her bracelet (a symbol she shares with Angeal, although for different reasons obviously). Again I'm only talking about the dress.

 

[Hellenic]

Never forget...

View attachment 16749

When i first saw that new relationship chart before the game was even out, i was honestly so surprised they went and threw a heart between Cloud and Tifa there.

At that moment i was already questioning what they were cooking up here by just blatantly throwing that in there. Turns out they really cooked even further when i actually got my hands on the game.

 

[Yoru]

Another argument in favour of Rosa's dress really is Tifa's:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1789674688500899842

Only Tifa has the wing earring. IIRC white feather is one of her symbol, as she has one on her bracelet (a symbol she shares with Angeal, although for different reasons obviously). Again I'm only talking about the dress.

I don't pay much attention to this "theory" personally, but the thing that surprised me the most in all this analysis of the opera is the fact that Tifa's scene when Cloud brings her into his arms is the only one with a completely different camera angle. And I find that so strange lol.

I thought for simplicity's sake they were just changing the character models and twisting the animations.

But oh well. I still don't think it means much. Because Aerith get a special bow too.

But it's still cool that they respected one of Tifa's distinctive features (like the fact that you can see her ear piercing hole in a swimsuit).

 

[pxl_pushr]

Aerith hate posts/blogs/tweets aren't appreciated in this thread thank you very much.

Edit: I apologise if this seemed like a harsh/over reaction, I just think Aerith genuinely wants to meet the real Cloud, doesn't have any nefarious agenda, and it would be the equivalent of me posting mock ups from anti Tifa/Cloti accounts

Seemed appropriate response to me.

To interpret that cluster of cherry-picked scenes in a way that doesn’t attempt to harm her character: Aerith’s intentions are genuine, but she doesn’t know how to do it.

Contrary to how she may come off, Aerith’s only other experience in a mutual relationship is with Zack, so she emulates his flirting tactics because it’s her only frame of reference.

They don’t work. She’s trying her hardest, but it just isn’t getting anywhere. I think this is to clear up any “Aerith could’ve found real Cloud if given more time” confusion. No, she wouldn’t have.

This doesn’t even mention her own struggles with her feelings for Zack. She wants to move past them, but her heart just won’t let her.

 

[abzy1200]

Maybe Part 3 will retroactively justify it, but it’s still odd.

How would it though? Aerith is gone, so you can't really choose to 'pursue' her even if there was an affinity system in part 3. There is nothing other than UTH that uses it post-GS date. There 100% is not enough time in part 3 to have some kind of GS date event with the other members of the party.

Being able to pick dialogue options post-LS would mean we lose out on the meta messaging behind it.

Overall, I hope that it's axed completely in part 3, no reason for it to exist at this point in the story.

When i first saw that new relationship chart before the game was even out, i was honestly so surprised they went and threw a heart between Cloud and Tifa there.

I'm still shocked about it honestly, and people still think Square Enix plays coy that much. Like, they do to some extent, but they don't really.

This doesn’t even mention her own struggles with her feelings for Zack. She wants to move past them, but her heart just won’t let her.

Yeah, this is it. When you say this kind of thing to people they'll always say something along the lines of "Aerith is allowed to move on, Zack doesn't own her!" and they would right, she is completely within her rights to. But there's a difference between the prospect of moving on, and actually moving on.

The Aerith we're shown in Rebirth is, at best, confused between Zack and Cloud, and at worst, still yearning for Zack.

 

[Yoru]

I think this is to clear up any “Aerith could’ve found real Cloud if given more time” confusion. No, she wouldn’t have.

I couldn't agree more. That's why all those "Aerith Route" scenes seem so strange to people who don't have Clerith's glasses. Because most of their dates don't work at all. She's trying very hard to learn more about him. But she has a lot of gaps. She lacks knowledge about the real Cloud. And she lacks life experience. She knows nothing about romance. All she knows is what she went through with Zack. That's all she knows. The poor girl doesn't even remember her father.

Most revealing is her quest on the beach. She's trying to "impose" a lesson on Cloud about how to react on a date, and the guy isn't feeling it at all. He just wants to finish his task.

So, yes. I think you've got it all figured out. She can't find him. Nobody can find him. Until...