SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

How does slut even make sense lmao.

It’s annoying when people fail to use the context of the scene. What Tifa says is very emotionally charged. She was offended not just for herself being questioned but also all the people who worked hard to save her.

Well, it's also some of the people describing her as a fat lying controlling b$tch, making money sleeping with guys after work. So, yeah... I don't really care about their pov. But still. If they could keep their story to themselves, I wouldn't mind.

From an outside POV we know he actually does mean "I cannot tell you. I want to, I cannot." and that thinking about it too hard makes his brain explode, and that he does mean that "I thought you had died back then" was meant out of concern, but yes, in the moment Tifa shows extreme patience and charity for the nonsense. Mostly because she already knows he's not fully himself and not fully well.

Yes. Obviously I'm only describing how she feels in the moment, I'm not saying Cloud is the ultimate asshole.

I prefer to specify

 

[Ryeleigh]

I don't see the need to keep "charming guy" in Re-trilogy then, it just makes Aerith look bad, I don't like it. I wish there was more middle ground, as is either way I can't ship ZA. Selfishly I wish there was scene where Aerith discovers Zack's final thoughts and how committed he became, and Zack reassures her that he never blamed her.

Of course nothing is 100% certain but I am fairly certain that there are going to be ZA scenes in Part 3. Hopefully, they'll air all of the mysteries between them, and I have my fingers crossed for seeing them banter and fight together. I really want to see Zack see how far Aerith has become from that girl he protected, lol. Not sure if Part 3 will still make you ship them but hey, let's be positive and hope so.

And the only thing he has to say is : I can't tell you. Classified information.

Which is even funnier because Cloud just finished telling super secret classified information to the whole gang, lmao. Instead of calling Tifa toxic, people should praise her for not decking him, lol.

I know it was that was for Yaoi where top and bottom are serious business, but I don't think that applies to all same sex couples.

You're right. I don't actually know how yuri ship names work but I hope they at least don't have the nonsense top or bottom wars.

Hmmm, I wonder where you might be. Wait, let me guess...
You're hanging out with that Aerith girl again, aren't you?
I bet you're wondering how I got that information.
See, I know everything about you, even if you never tell me anything.
In other words, it's no use keeping secrets from me, because I know how to get information.
So talk to me, Zack. You can tell me anything.
Tell me about all the things that are wearing you down.​

To be honest, Kunsel's letter sounds like a giant red flag though. Should we change track for a while and make a Zack/Aerith/Kunsel debate?

 

[Rin]

To be honest, Kunsel's letter sounds like a giant red flag though.

No literally, he scares the hell out of me lmao I'm like WHY ARE YOU STALKING ME????

 

[Yoru]

Which is even funnier because Cloud just finished telling super secret classified information to the whole gang, lmao. Instead of calling Tifa toxic, people should praise her for not decking him, lol.

"Sorry can't tell you. Have to respect my contract with that corporation that sent their mad man burn our village and families and just killed thousand of people in Midgar to justify their new war"

No literally, he scares the hell out of me lmao I'm like WHY ARE YOU STALKING ME????

"I can be your Aerith too" heavy breathing sound on the phone

 

[Hellenic]

It’s high treason according to some…

This whole ladies man point of zack is so stupid and annoying. I wish it would just die. As if it's a bad thing that he's desirable by the ladies and a bit of a flirt, but we can clearly see his dedication to a single woman in general anyway.

 

[Rin]

It's very hypocritical, as some of you have already pointed out, since they don't have this smoke for Cloud at all who canonically does have 2 love interests lmao.

 

[Hellenic]

After looking at a recent reply that Shinra Archeology Department made, I was subjected to shipping tweets against my will.

Saw someone say in response to some video or post about Tifa (can’t remember since I clicked off as soon as I read it) that Tifa was some background side character compared to Aerith and “what game did they play?”

God, I’m so confused. Maybe this is why Nomura and Nojima aren’t afraid. They know that no matter what, the opposing side will still thrive on some bizarre headcanons that they’ll pretend is 100% canon.

Seriously, I’m so confused.

Each side is super confident in their victory, so that means one of us has to be delusional. I really hope Part 3 clears that up.

They just need to go all out and showoff how much of a main character Tifa is (i'd argue she felt more like one than Aerith did in Rebirth but i digress) and not give Aerith enough presence in next game and then the deniers can suck it up and bitch forever about how Square made the supposed "nobody" character so important couse their own braincells couldn't comprehend the truth.

 

[GamerSkull]

Well, the new thing I've been hearing is them going "I guess the OG is not canon to FFVII lol". Essentially trying to twist the fact that everything since the OG has been going one way as some sort of positive. The thinking being "well, if everything since OG is Cloti through retcon, then that must mean Clerith is the most faithful and true interpretation of the OG". Rather than "Apparently the OG wasn't clear enough and we need to be more blatant before you people understand it".


Ahhhh, but retcons don't count see, how silly are you for thinking the developers can ever have input on the story post release. This, btw, is why even if Cloti is so hard cemented in part 3 that even Cleriths can't deny it, they'll still not go away, they'll say its a retcon and that the OG (which they'll claim is Clerith) overrules it.

Yeah, I definitely see that being the case. They’ll claim Cloti is a retcon, even though I’d argue the OG is pretty Cloti endgame.

I have to believe this is truly just a minority of fans. No way a majority had such a borked interpretation.

They just need to go all out and showoff how much of a main character Tifa is (i'd argue she felt more like one than Aerith did in Rebirth but i digress) and not give Aerith enough presence in next game and then the deniers can suck it up and bitch forever about how Square made the supposed "nobody" character so important couse their own braincells couldn't comprehend the truth.

Yeah, I think Aerith was really most prominent at the end, tbh.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah, I think Aerith was really most prominent at the end, tbh.

Honestly, I'd started out with the idea that Rebirth would be an Aerith fest. And in the end, Tifa is omnipresent until the last chapter. So really, I'm glad there's a focus on Aerith before her death...

That's why I have a bit of doubt on the last game. We've been so spoiled with Tifa that I think it's too good to be true. They're going to have to stall a bit with Aerith. But if we stay on the same basis as OG. Oh boy. We're going to eat real good.

 

[Rin]

Honestly, I'd started out with the idea that Rebirth would be an Aerith fest. And in the end, Tifa is omnipresent until the last chapter. So really, I'm glad there's a focus on Aerith before her death...

That's why I have a bit of doubt on the last game. We've been so spoiled with Tifa that I think it's too good to be true. They're going to have to stall a bit with Aerith. But if we stay on the same basis as OG. Oh boy. We're going to eat real good.

Aerith will 100% be there in part 3, but her romantic b-plot with Cloud has wrapped. That's what the dream date was for, after all. From here, it's Zerith fest for sure.

 

[GamerSkull]

Aerith will 100% be there in part 3, but her romantic b-plot with Cloud has wrapped. That's what the dream date was for, after all. From here, it's Zerith fest for sure.

Here’s hoping. They have quite a bit to cover in Part 3 so that arc needs sufficient conclusion.

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

Aerith will 100% be there in part 3, but her romantic b-plot with Cloud has wrapped. That's what the dream date was for, after all. From here, it's Zerith fest for sure.

I hope so but wouldn't they make more money by giving something to both sides. I still see CT/ZA as endgame tho.

 

[nars305]

It seems obvious to me that all of Cloud and Tifa’s development in Rebirth is so certain scenes pack a real punch…his mind collapse, when Tifa stays with him through his mako coma, and of course the LS sequence.

I can only say that from my own perspective as someone who wasn’t invested after Remake but am now heavily invested in them after Rebirth.

Rebirth is basically an entire build up to the LS sequence in my opinion. There is so much foreshadowing.

 

[looneymoon]

re: Zack's multiple girlfriends.

One thing the Compilation does that I truly dislike is that it really... wipes the characters clean of their more complicated or unlikeable attributes.

Zack being a player but especially loving Aerith isn't something out of this world. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts. His screen time in the OG is limited, but the man spent the last five years in a test tube and was still thinking of her - that has got to count for something.

Cloud having feelings for two women is incredibly normal. There's plenty to indicate that he does. The text in the OG implies there is more conscious intention when lying to emulate his dead womanizer friend. Cloud himself does his own version womanizing between Aerith and Tifa, but like... stupidly, though lmao. I'm not denying that he ends up with Tifa here btw, thats a no brainer at this point.

OG Tifa, despite being closest to the "real" Cloud, 1000% projects onto him an idea of a "knight in shining armour." Which unintentionally fuels the insecurities that drives much of the main plot's conflict.

OG Aerith isn't exactly the beacon of sensitivity. Her personality sometimes leads to people's feelings getting hurt, and there are times when she just can't read the room.

Aerith and Tifa can be friends but also have petty jealousies towards each other. That's completely normal within friendships. Especially when they like the same guy - it'd be kind of weird if they didn't.

I'm not trying to be harsh or judgemental here. I just think the original depiction of the characters portrays their flaws as they are - flaws. Things that make them a little bit ugly. These are things that make me like them more, not less. Sometimes shit is a little complicated, and things aren't so black and white. I think that's cool.

The fandom could never really seem to handle these ideas without being super toxic about it though. I think also, as the series has gotten more franchised, the creators have had a desire lean into more archetypal/heroic depictions of the characters. Fan reaction + marketability strikes me as a lot of the motive behind this. I personally find this rather unfortunate, but it is what it is.

also, @Yoru I'm really not trying to hyper fixate on the LTD tbh I'm more just trying to stay on topic while also generally complain why I really dislike how this version depicts these characters. Believe me, I really am not much of a shipper, I'm just using it is the angle for which I'm entering into complain mode lmao. I could easily go into my annoyances about Barret/Yuffie/Red/Turks/etc, or even talk about Cloud/Tifa/Aerith/Zack without the LTD bent. I'm just trying to keep my thoughts pertinent to the topic because this feels like the safest space where I can air my grievances lmao.

 

[Hellenic]

And now people think SEPHIROTH will save Cloud (let's ditch Tifa), this fandom I swear

I will post later on (no time now) a little refocus on what's to wait for p3 on the CT side. Looking at my quotes I still don't know why people have such a hard time understanding which is the canon pairing.

How the hell did we come around to that?

 

[Hellenic]

While I agree that LTD can tend to ruin certain moments, I think you're getting a bit too fixated on it. The whole game isn't meant to be read under the spectrum of romance. Some parts are meant to be... some aren't.

It can't all be trench warfare between the two girls. And it's precisely at these moments that I think most of the Cloud voice actor's statements. Any exchange between a woman and a man must not be reduced only to its potential in terms of romance.

As for the team hardly reacting to Cloud going off. It's a fact that's explained in-game, but that few people have picked up on. I think it's more the game's fault than the people's, to be honest, but here's my reading of the situation:

Cloud is Captain America. The team needs him. They're simple people, nobodies. They manage to keep up with him, but he's the one doing the elimination work. That's why he's recruited by Avalanche in the first place. And that's why in the mithril mines they say they're counting on him. He's literally their strong arm. Without him, they can't do anything (according to them).

So yes, Cloud is going mad. Everyone looks at each other strangely. They know it stinks. But they have to deal with it. He's the only one they have to deal with their current situation.

And... he's their friend.

Also i partially fault OG for the whole "why is nobody confronting him about the issues properly" thing.

Game still needs to have the group go through the same steps as before to reach the low point where Cloud finally loses himself fully. If the characters gave up on him too early or started pushing him too hard at this point then we wouldn't really get a similar flow of events.

 

[looneymoon]

I'm sure I'm not the only person who's view of the story/characters has been broken by Cloud's mental decline in Remake/Rebirth. To me, the writers raised the stakes in such a careless manner. Stakes being raised doesn't automatically mean a conflict increases in impact. On a similar note, was all the time travel/AU plot shit super worth it to just have Zack chill at Elmyra's house for 90% of his screen time? It gives me the impression that they had little to no plan outside of fan service.

 

[Hellenic]

How does slut even make sense lmao.

Because she wears revealing outfits duuuh /s.

 

[pxl_pushr]

Also i partially fault OG for the whole "why is nobody confronting him about the issues properly" thing.

Game still needs to have the group go through the same steps as before to reach the low point where Cloud finally loses himself fully. If the characters gave up on him too early or started pushing him too hard at this point then we wouldn't really get a similar flow of events.

One of the weaknesses of the story imo, but I do think they pushing the degeneration thing is meant to dull the edge. Also explains Tifa’s patience considering she’s known about degeneration since early in Remake. She probably figures he’s degenerating at some rate and Gongaga is him finally opening up about his concerns of it.

 

[GamerSkull]

I'm not trying to be harsh or judgemental here. I just think the original depiction of the characters portrays their flaws as they are - flaws. Things that make them a little bit ugly. These are things that make me like them more, not less. Sometimes shit is a little complicated, and things aren't so black and white. I think that's cool.

The fandom could never really seem to handle these ideas without being super toxic about it though. I think also, as the series has gotten more franchised, the creators have had a desire lean into more archetypal/heroic depictions of the characters. Fan reaction + marketability strikes me as a lot of the motive behind this. I personally find this rather unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Yeah, this part specifically is something that I've often found really odd in terms of the fandom. Tifa was the popular girl and Cloud was kinda ostracized... therefore she has to be punished for that forever in the eyes of the certain parts of the fandom. Same goes for Aerith and Zack and other characters. They do one thing that might be questionable and suddenly they are scum of the earth to some people.

Characters being flawed is what make them compelling. And having flaws that cause them to make mistakes don't necessarily make them bad people. They can't all be virtuous 100% of the time. It's quite human.

 

[Rin]

Here’s hoping. They have quite a bit to cover in Part 3 so that arc needs sufficient conclusion.

It'll get it, for sure. Will it be GOOD? Idk lol but it'll get it.

I hope so but wouldn't they make more money by giving something to both sides. I still see CT/ZA as endgame tho.

Make more money? No, probably not. Despite the way it seems bc of the LTD, the ships aren't really the financial driving force behind FF7. But even if it was, Tifa is their best selling character--she even outdoes Cloud in popularity polls. Practically all the Rebirth game reviews were filled with gushing about how perfect Tifa was, how she was the standout, how her relationship with Cloud really shined, etc.

Nojima even said he gave CT a kiss because he knew the fans had been imagining it for over 27 years. Nomura said they sped up the trajectory of CTs relationship in Rebirth because players needed to understand how they feel for each other to properly execute part 3.

I'm not saying that Cloud and Aerith are never going to interact again because they absolutely will, but the romantic aspect of that relationship has reached its conclusion and not just because she's dead. Nevertheless, even if Cloud and Aerith just stand beside each other in the LS, shippers are gonna say it's the happiest he's ever looked even if he's wearing a completely blank face lol

 

[GamerSkull]

It'll get it, for sure. Will it be GOOD? Idk lol but it'll get it.


Make more money? No, probably not. Despite the way it seems bc of the LTD, the ships aren't really the financial driving force behind FF7. But even if it was, Tifa is their best selling character--she even outdoes Cloud in popularity polls. Practically all the Rebirth game reviews were filled with gushing about how perfect Tifa was, how she was she standout, how her relationship with Cloud really shined, etc.

Nojima even said he gave CT a kiss because he knew the fans had been imagining it for over 27 years. Nomura said they sped up the trajectory of CTs relationship in Rebirth because players needed to understand how they feel for each other to properly execute part 3.

I'm not saying that Cloud and Aerith are never going to interact again because they absolutely will, but the romantic aspect of that relationship has reached its conclusion and not just because she's dead. Nevertheless, even if Cloud and Aerith just stand beside each other in the LS, shippers are gonna say it's the happiest he's ever looked even if he's wearing a completely blank face lol

Yeah, a majority of FF7 fans don't actually care about the LTD. Perhaps they have their biases but most just accept the story as is. The people that take part in the LTD are probably just really loud (and this goes for both sides) that often it might seem like it is the sole contributing factor in the popularity of FF7 when it's probably closer to 15-20% if even that.

 

[Yoru]

re: Zack's multiple girlfriends.

One thing the Compilation does that I truly dislike is that it really... wipes the characters clean of their more complicated or unlikeable attributes.

Zack being a player but especially loving Aerith isn't something out of this world. They aren't mutually exclusive concepts. His screen time in the OG is limited, but the man spent the last five years in a test tube and was still thinking of her - that has got to count for something.

Cloud having feelings for two women is incredibly normal. There's plenty to indicate that he does. The text in the OG implies there is more conscious intention when lying to emulate his dead womanizer friend. Cloud himself does his own version womanizing between Aerith and Tifa, but like... stupidly, though lmao. I'm not denying that he ends up with Tifa here btw, thats a no brainer at this point.

OG Tifa, despite being closest to the "real" Cloud, 1000% projects onto him an idea of a "knight in shining armour." Which unintentionally fuels the insecurities that drives much of the main plot's conflict.

OG Aerith isn't exactly the beacon of sensitivity. Her personality sometimes leads to people's feelings getting hurt, and there are times when she just can't read the room.

Aerith and Tifa can be friends but also have petty jealousies towards each other. That's completely normal within friendships. Especially when they like the same guy - it'd be kind of weird if they didn't.

I'm not trying to be harsh or judgemental here. I just think the original depiction of the characters portrays their flaws as they are - flaws. Things that make them a little bit ugly. These are things that make me like them more, not less. Sometimes shit is a little complicated, and things aren't so black and white. I think that's cool.

The fandom could never really seem to handle these ideas without being super toxic about it though. I think also, as the series has gotten more franchised, the creators have had a desire lean into more archetypal/heroic depictions of the characters. Fan reaction + marketability strikes me as a lot of the motive behind this. I personally find this rather unfortunate, but it is what it is.

also, @Yoru I'm really not trying to hyper fixate on the LTD tbh I'm more just trying to stay on topic while also generally complain why I really dislike how this version depicts these characters. Believe me, I really am not much of a shipper, I'm just using it is the angle for which I'm entering into complain mode lmao. I could easily go into my annoyances about Barret/Yuffie/Red/Turks/etc, or even talk about Cloud/Tifa/Aerith/Zack without the LTD bent. I'm just trying to keep my thoughts pertinent to the topic because this feels like the safest space where I can air my grievances lmao.

It is my bad then. I didn't make the connection with the fact that we were on the LTD channel and took it as a general criticism. And since you were already talking about it last time from that angle, I kind of took the shortcut that you were super fixated on the romance in the game. I didn't read the room. Really sorry. Still, I don't think talking about routes does you any favors in appreciating this aspect of the game. Because they're not routes. But it's more the game's fault for misrepresenting itself as such than yours.

As for characters flaws... I'm 100% with you in your reasoning. But I think the problem lies in the scale the game has taken on over the years. Given the extent to which these little flaws have been used to mischaracterize several characters over the years, I can understand the designers' desire to reduce the nuances. I think there's nothing more irritating as a writer than to see your characters completely misunderstood. It's a bit like Herbert being depressed when people think of Paul in Dune as a hero, when in fact he's quite the opposite.

So yes, I'm a bit conflicted. On the one hand, I'd like to see characters a little less stereotyped, but on the other... people have been so infamous that... unfortunately it's sad, but you have to get down to their level and talk to them simply...

 

[Sacky]

It is my bad then. I didn't make the connection with the fact that we were on the LTD channel and took it as a general criticism. And since you were already talking about it last time from that angle, I kind of took the shortcut that you were super fixated on the romance in the game. I didn't read the room. Really sorry. Still, I don't think talking about routes does you any favors in appreciating this aspect of the game. Because they're not routes. But it's more the game's fault for misrepresenting itself as such than yours.

As for characters flaws... I'm 100% with you in your reasoning. But I think the problem lies in the scale the game has taken on over the years. Given the extent to which these little flaws have been used to mischaracterize several characters over the years, I can understand the designers' desire to reduce the nuances. I think there's nothing more irritating as a writer than to see your characters completely misunderstood. It's a bit like Herbert being depressed when people think of Paul in Dune as a hero, when in fact he's quite the opposite.

So yes, I'm a bit conflicted. On the one hand, I'd like to see characters a little less stereotyped, but on the other... people have been so infamous that... unfortunately it's sad, but you have to get down to their level and talk to them simply...

people cant actually think Paul is the hero in Dune right plz no XD

 

[abzy1200]

Practically all the Rebirth game reviews were filled with gushing about how perfect Tifa was, how she was the standout, how her relationship with Cloud really shined, etc.

Yeah, at this point, from what I can tell, the majority seem to be invested in Cloud and Tifa, so if they were to backtrack and push Clerith, it would do way more harm than good. Satisfying a couple thousand diehards who spend their days trashing the game and it's characters on twitter in exchange for butchering the story that people are currently invested in would serve to displease basically everyone besides said diehards, so that's hardly generating more money than simply pleasing the majority and continuing to do what is currently working very well.

If Square Enix really want to butter a group up with part 3...it'll be the majority who are already enjoying the trajectory that Rebirth set rather than the vocal minority. I can guarantee to everybody here that a Clerith 180 wouldn't make people go "ooooh it all makes sense now!" like in the original with Cloti and the LS, it would be up there with Tidus kicking a bomb for bad moments in Final Fantasy. It's simply too late to push Clerith even the slightest bit without making people go "wait...what about Tifa? Why did they get me so invested in Cloti and Tifa in general if Square are just going to characterize her as someone who tries so hard for a man that doesn't respect her, her feelings, and her efforts for him? And why would they promote Cloud as a hero if he's such an asshole?", that is how the public will see Clerith in part 3 if it really happens or is serviced even the smallest bit. Whether Cleriths like it or not, everyone saw that kiss, and that is what people are going to remember going into part 3.