I don't think she thought it through before she did it. But I think it shows a new-found physical familiarity with each other. I don't see her doing it pre-Highwind.
I should have been more clear about it; their physical familiarity with each other at that point had her instinctively reaching out to Cloud on a more physical level without actually thinking through. Like you said, pre-Highwind Tifa would have probably held back at such a gesture, but she now doesn't necessarily need to give any thought on whether or not it's acceptable, because they've already reached past desire.
I never understood wtf was up with that thigh-grab, to be honest. He's already up on the ledge, so she can't be helping him up. Nor is it really the time or place for a '*wink* Do you wanna?' kind of grope, either. She's just.... touching his leg for the lulz, I guess.
It makes little sense as anything other than an instinctual precaution to make sure he doesn't fall, and it's definitely a sign of increased familiarity and comfort with each other.
It makes little sense as anything other than an instinctual precaution to make sure he doesn't fall, and it's definitely a sign of increased familiarity and comfort with each other.
Just when you think the front page tards are gone glop comes back with a vengeance.
Oh well.
As for the discussion at hand? Being only partially aware of such things as the love triangle debate I watched AC and it was clear to me that Cloud and Tifa were a couple.
Then again without foreknowledge of the true epic heartrending tragic love story of FFVII my vision was clearly biased.
As for the discussion at hand? Being only partially aware of such things as the love triangle debate I watched AC and it was clear to me that Reno and Yazoo were a couple.
Again, you're missing the quintessential point of narrative storytelling. Put a girl and boy together in a scene, just before their last day, who express their feelings together, who then taking about actions speaking louder than words... the audience will have natural expectations as to what happens between then and daybreak.
Out of character? Put yourself in their position and dare tell anyone that's out of character. First and foremost, they care deeply for each other. Tifa has always been on Cloud's mind as referenced in Crisis Core, Cloud we know is on Tifa's. This is the juncture where they admit it - just before the world ends. Remember that, this is their final ever battle. The story goes to great lengths to show this is it - the sky is blood red, the sky is falling etc. At this moment, these two lonely people who have no one else (again, the whole point of the scene) have one final fleeting moment to admit their feelings for each other before they go to battle and die. One last moment to express these feelings both have been documented to have (before we even go into the fairly explicit related media as has been discussed of late).
And you think at that point, in their position, sex is out of character? Eh? These are adults. Young adults. They are about to die. As a basic act, with love, its a common one for soldiers in port for that same reason, to feel close to someone. It's a very common human trait that shouldn't be thrown aside through any social snobbery that decent people don't act so impetuously.
And it is impetuous. Tifa recognizes its something that she wouldn't normally do. She's embarrassed at the thought her actions would be seen.
It's what that whole act is about - vulnerability. Feeling isolated. Remembering why you are fighting the fight - what you're fighting for. The other's already knew, this was the moment that Tifa and Cloud confronted their feelings and dealt with them in a very human, adult way.
Honestly two late teens in that circumstance who just held each other knowing they were close to death and had no more chances to really feel together as sex brings, THAT would be OOC.
At this rate there will be no subtlety left in drama. Why bother with it if in the end every story point has to be explained on record by the creators to make the events valid. That's a very lazy state of affairs.
It's common sense. You you have a scene when boy and girl meet in the bar. They smile and the guy buys the girl a drink. They are brother and sister - but the audience won't except they are brother and sister until the story tells them because the natural common assumption is a guy and girl meeting in a bar will be romantic ...
I know the discussion's moved on now, but I have to agree with LV -- looks like making sure she has a hand there to pull him away from the edge if it started to give way further.
Isabella said:
I don't think she thought it through before she did it. But I think it shows a new-found physical familiarity with each other. I don't see her doing it pre-Highwind.
I don't disagree with this, but it assumes she knows she has all the time in the world to select where to grab him. Given that she was still low to the ground at the time, if she's doing this on instinct, she's just going to put her hand wherever it would intuitively be most effective.
There are too many quotes alike, really. I'm lost, too. Can aynone actually compile all the bunch of similar quotes we have from the different sources? I know Tres actually did it partly at TNC
"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."
"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."
"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."
"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."
And for good measure, everything else that's ever been said about the scene:
"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. The next morning, she departs for the Northern Crater along with her companions, who returned.
'Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking......'
-Said to Cloud, when he is at a loss for words while they're alone
If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything."
"Night before the final battle......
After stopping Hojo's recklessness and before heading to the Northern Crater, the conversation scene with Tifa can diverge drastically depending on Tifa's affection rating. When the affection rating is low, the conversation scene where the two spend the evening is candid and rather short. In the scene on the bridge the next morning, Tifa asks 'Were you listening?' and taps her foot. On the other hand, if the affection rating is high, the two spend the evening in focused conversation, and on the bridge, Tifa asks 'Were you watching?' and collapses in embarassment."
"Before the final battle......
Variations determined by Tifa's affection rating apply from the beginning of the evening with Cloud and Tifa on the grassland until the conversation where they reunite with their companions on the airship. If the affection rating is high, Cloud and Tifa convey their feelings in powerful lines.
[Screenshot caption]
Upon returning to the airship, Yuffie will say 'Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?' regardless of the contents of the conversation of Cloud's conversation."
(Translation from the frontpage article on this) Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle. Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqué line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me. - The line “Words aren’t the only way to talk someone how you feel,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game. Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down. Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs).
(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)
分岐
決戦前の会話は2種粨ある
決戦前にクラウドとティファが交わす会話の内容は、ティファの好感度によって変わる。好感度が高いと、ふたりの会話が、お互いを強く思いやるような深い内容になるのだ。また、ふたりの樣子を仲間たちが見ていたことが翌朝発覚し、ティファが照れる場面では、好感度の高いときのほうが、彼女の照れかたが大きい。
"Deviation 2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."
(FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game]
(U20 Scenario, pg. 199)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book]
[Screenshot caption with Terra and the children of Mobliz]
一度は戦う力を矢ったティナは、「愛する者のために戦う」ということを知って力を取りもどし、ふたりび戦いに身を投じる。
FOR THE ONE I LOVE
Through the long journeys, the love of the protagonists develop. Occasionally they become separated, but the two’s value to one another gives them the great strength to overcome whatever crisis may come.
III – The diligent soldier and the meek princess
The love between the soldier and princess of Sasune Castle was divided by social status; Ingus tried to supress his feelings, but Sara would not hide hers.
IV – World just for the two of us
When rescuing Rosa, Cecil frankly declares his true feelings. The two reunited, they tightly embrace for all eyes to see.
VI – Result of the chance encounter
The imperial general and the anti-empire organization member — Celes and Locke’s relation to one another is like ships passing in the night; it’s a long period before they get to communicate their feelings completely.
VII – Secret date
At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior.
VII – The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match.
VIII – Witch Rinoa’s knight
Just before she can be sealed due to being a witch, Squall retakes Rinoa. “I don’t care that you’re a witch” are his words to her, putting her mind at ease.
IX – For the one I must protect
Beatrix becomes the woman to whom Steiner will let no harm befall. For his homeland’s protection and for hers, Steiner brandishes his sword.
IX – Guidance on an investigation of life
Zidane left the company of his companions in front of the Iifa Tree. He survived for the sake of going back to “the place I’ll return to someday,” where the one he loves was waiting for him.
X – Macalania Spring
Yuna is betrayed by the temples she had completely believed in and had made the foundation of her life. Tidus decides to comfort her in this way.
Extra Thread Scenes involving “love” other than romantic love
In the “FF” series, there’s not just the romantic love between men and women; there are various forms of love depicted. In “FFV,” there’s familial love between Galuf and Krile, as well as the brotherly love between Edgar and Sabin depicted in “FFVI”; and in “FFIX,” there’s an instance of love between Eiko and Mog that goes beyond race. Also, in “FFVI,” there’s the scene where Terra recovers her ability to fight and comes to understand the emotion called “love”; when talking about “love,” this is a scene that shouldn’t be left out.
[Screenshot caption with Terra and the children of Mobliz]
During the event where Terra recovers her ability to fight, she regains her power and says “I’ll fight to protect the people I love”; she then throws herself back into battle.
Don't ya'll ever say I never did anything for ya.
And don't anyone who would like to "prove" my translations to be "biased" or "lies" say I never gave you the opportunity to do it.
Seriously, I knew there were a lot of similar quotes, I just had no clue as to how many >___>"
That makes 8 quotes, one of them being included in the 4 most impressive scenes of FFVII. Darn, and here I thought they wouldn't announce it like that. Oops.
I think Celes Chere's/Yusei's comparison to Lock and Celes of FFVI, summed up the intimacy question regarding FFVII's Cloud and Tifa. That was a good one.
@TresDias
Jesus Christ, that's awesome. Kudos for the hard work and throughness.
....But then again you're just a biased Cloti, so I can't really trust that translation.
Sadly you're right. So many damn translators are biased Clotis. It's like the entire language and ideas themselves are biased to Cloti. Sad times when you can't trust even the Japanese language or creators these days.
Sadly you're right. So many damn translators are biased Clotis. It's like the entire language and ideas themselves are biased to Cloti. Sad times when you can't trust even the Japanese language or creators these days.
To add to Charlie's great post: Some have argued they don't buy sex because Cloud and Tifa are still a bit awkward with each other after. But do relationships always move in such a linear fashion? Especially in such exceptional circumstances?
IMO, it's much more believable that they had sex -- or at least some major making out --then when the world didn't end, they began the awkward dance of taking their newly revealed feelings and OOC behavior and fashioning it into a functional relationship. And yes, sex is OOC, but that's the point. As Charlie explained so well, these are two people in extreme circumstances. They don't have time to confess their feelings, then hug and think about what they've said while planning for their long future together. Between Sephiroth and Meteor, they didn't have any time left.
Them doing something rash -- and Tifa's reaction the next morning tells us she behaved rashly that night -- that makes much more sense to me than them behaving so calmly and with such a long-range view on what is likely their last night alive. Frankly, them just embracing makes little narrative sense to me.
With CoT, it's like, "oh shit, we did the deed, the world didn't end and now we have a shot at establishing a relationship. So how the he'll do we do this?"
To add to Charlie's great post: Some have argued they don't buy sex because Cloud and Tifa are still a bit awkward with each other after. But do relationships always move in such a linear fashion? Especially in such exceptional circumstances?
IMO, it's much more believable that they had sex -- or at least some major making out --then when the world didn't end, they began the awkward dance of taking their newly revealed feelings and OOC behavior and fashioning it into a functional relationship. And yes, sex is OOC, but that's the point. As Charlie explained so well, these are two people in extreme circumstances. They don't have time to confess their feelings, then hug and think about what they've said while planning for their long future together. Between Sephiroth and Meteor, they didn't have any time left.
Them doing something rash -- and Tifa's reaction the next morning tells us she behaved rashly that night -- that makes much more sense to me than them behaving so calmly and with such a long-range view on what is likely their last night alive. Frankly, them just embracing makes little narrative sense to me.
With CoT, it's like, "oh shit, we did the deed, the world didn't end and now we have a shot at establishing a relationship. So how the he'll do we do this?"
To be honest, I don't think they had sex because I think Cloud totally pulled a Daniel Dreiberg and couldn't get it up.
It's really not that I'm ruling out that something physical did happen, but it may or may not have been sex. Depending on the affection, nothing may have happened at all. I'll make this comparison because I've had Bioshock on the brain and also because it fits (and uh, Bioshock 1 spoilers for the rest of this post):
The ending of Bioshock is totally dependent on the players choices -- he may either rescue the little sisters or harvest (kill) them. Now, in the sequel, it deals with Little Sisters who have grown up, some returning to Rapture after the events of the first game. So it was decided that regardless of the player's actions in the first game, another character (Tenenbaum) would rescue her own group of little sisters anyway. This way, it wouldn't cheapen the player's personal experience in the original game.
In FF7, the scene under the Highwind can either be climactic or disappointing depending on how you played it. I just don't think so much stock should be put on whether or not they had sex, because I don't think it matters much if they did or not. CoT itself makes no reference to that night, but the storyline can follow logically either way, because at the end of the day they still end up in the same place at AC.
It's obvious that would happen, Vendel. Simple math. Multiply the IQ of most YouTube users by the relevance of the vid to Cloud, Tifa and/or Aerith, and add in the LTD relevance factor of the vid summary. Plug the data from that vid and our solution comes out to be.....
Seriously, it's YouTube, of all places, where 90% of the userbase has the intelligence and grammar of someone in kindergarten. Good luck discussing anything civilly and logically on YouTube. Factor in it's the LTD, and there's only one way the situation can go.
EDIT - commented, mostly just bitching about people bitching about people bitching that Cloud may or may not love one bitch more than the other.
In FF7, the scene under the Highwind can either be climactic or disappointing depending on how you played it. I just don't think so much stock should be put on whether or not they had sex, because I don't think it matters much if they did or not. CoT itself makes no reference to that night, but the storyline can follow logically either way, because at the end of the day they still end up in the same place at AC.
Not really. In the end, unless we assume that moment is a vacant void so far as continuity is threaded, so far as options go I think Case of Tifa hangs true on the H/A. In fact, given the whole point of the scene is meant to be affectionate, and that complies with where CoT/AC's direction, I'd say that H/A is the rational answer. L/A doesn't make it NOT work, but so far as the story's narrative tone goes, the H/A does sit better with all parts.
Yes its up to the player as part of the game, but I see continuity of a story as a different beast. I can play Star Wars: The Computer Game and have Luke get pummelled by Ewoks (oo-er), doesn't mean that is incorporated into the continuity of even that game's storyline.
I think there is a danger of looking at the game mechanics and using those mechanics as to evidence where the story went. In FF7 case (and we've argued this on the date mechanics), while the mechanics personalise the players gaming experience, and non definitively counter the flow of the story (not even the Aeris 'date') the story itself has continuity that should always be observed over the optional gaming elements. The date is actually far harder to query which feels more in tone with the story as each is played as a light hearted eye-of-hurricane moment. Personally I think one could argue Tifa or Aeris' working as well as each other with the storyline - Tifa's reveals a little about Tifa's upcoming revelation, and Aeris very much is the last decent alone moment she gets with Cloud before the big reveal. Both work.
With the Highwind I think its a little different. As far as the story goes, I think the H/A actually carries more sensitivity to the direction and position of the characters than the L/A.
In fact, if you think about where the story is going as a whole (again with hindsight of CoT and AC, the story is bringing these two together. The only reason you'd not get the H/A is if you were running against this story flow and looking to keep them apart; if you personally don't like Tifa or Cloud having interest in her, which is against the whole continuity as we now see it.
While when the game was out on its own I'd agree with you Zee. With no aftermath, each carries relevance. But in terms of the wider continuity I think its a more difficult argument to say the L/A has equal validity when in essence it is the player's bias upon the story that creates it and that chosen bias doesn't naturally sit with the outcome (or prequels) that have been added to the FF7 universe.
I always thought the date choice versus the highwind scene were two different things, though. With the date, you get a whole different character. With the Highwind scene, we're still focused on Cloud and Tifa, the only difference is that one is slightly awkward. Even with the Low Affection, though, I don't think it's a giant hole in the continuity.
This is mostly because a lot of these quotes in the Ultimana's still reference the differences in affection, so I don't think they are ruling it out. They know people who played the original game came to their own conclusions about it and they found a way to bridge the gap with CoT by leading into the relationship in such a way you could believe it regardless of the path you took.
