LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Zee]

in this case, stealing panties,

.........You are not actually using that as an actual example are you? Cause if so, I will argue to the death Barret/Cloud subtext.

 

[Winter]

Cecil did not sleep in Rosa's room. Rosa had unfettered access to his room

Ack, I had it backwards. It's been years since I played IV, I was going off of memory. BUT STILL.

Nope. It is implied they kiss, but we don't actually ever see a kiss, which is the point I am getting at.

Yes you do! What do you think they were doing, smashing their faces together at the end? Just because it wasn't close up doesn't mean they weren't obviously kissing.

And yet the 'PDA' between them is still at the hugging level.

And yet that's still more than Cloud and Tifa.

It does so far less explicitly than FFVII deals with the Highwind scene.

Them fucking under the Highwind is still speculation, and I don't buy it as canon. So... no.

 

[Ryushikaze]

.........You are not actually using that as an actual example are you? Cause if so, I will argue to the death Barret/Cloud subtext.

No, at least certainly no more than the 'oo soft' example is an example of Z/G. What it is is an example of how FFVII, IX, and X, are outliers in the 'proactivity' and willingness to be sexual compared to other titles.
The honeybee inn and its jokes are an example of this as well.

 

[Isabella]

I'm curious what the anti-sex people think did happen. Kissing?

 

[Winter]

She slept holding him or something similar.

I'm not "anti-sex". I just think that's a really lame and OOC scenario for what happened, and it's never been explicitly proven by the creators.

 

[Isabella]

So you don't even think they kissed? How did they express their desire for each other without words, then? I'm trying to understand.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Ack, I had it backwards. It's been years since I played IV, I was going off of memory. BUT STILL.

Tifa- if not sleeping with Cloud outright in CoT, has unfettered access to his room, to the point where it's not worth raising an eyebrow about.

Yes you do! What do you think they were doing, smashing their faces together at the end? Just because it wasn't close up doesn't mean they weren't obviously kissing.

This is kind of my point. We cannot SEE any actual kiss. But we don't seem to think it an assumption to conclude one happened.

And yet that's still more than Cloud and Tifa.

That's not what the butt touch, the bedroom eyes, etc. says.
Plus, the sleeping together using each other as the pillow like they did under the highwind.

Them fucking under the Highwind is still speculation, and I don't buy it as canon. So... no.

Then you should be applying the same skepticism to C/R at the start of the game.

Seriously though- confirm feelings of desire without words, lines with risque and mature implications, Tifa's embarassment over being seen or heard, they did something physically intimate that night, otherwise the line isn't risque. If the line implies nothing risque, then it's not a risque line.

 

[Zee]

I'm curious what the anti-sex people think did happen. Kissing?

Actually when I first played the game and she said her now infamous quote I thought she was referring to the fact that she was just in his head and therefore didn't need him to express his feelings with words, because she already knew.

If anything physical happened I don't think it was anything beyond copping a feel. CoT portrays them more as two people who are still exploring boundaries, not two people who've already consummated the relationship.

 

[Isabella]

Actually when I first played the game and she said her now infamous quote I thought she was referring to the fact that she was just in his head and therefore didn't need him to express his feelings with words, because she already knew.

Fair enough, but we've had books and an interview tell us that's not what the line meant. So you must have adjusted your perception based on that, right?

 

[Winter]

So you don't even think they kissed? How did they express their desire for each other without words, then? I'm trying to understand.

First of all, doesn't them expressing their actual desire for each other depend on which version you get?

besides, this:

Actually when I first played the game and she said her now infamous quote I thought she was referring to the fact that she was just in his head and therefore didn't need him to express his feelings with words, because she already knew.

Also, didn't the quote say it was originally intended to be risque, not that it was?

Then you should be applying the same skepticism to C/R at the start of the game.

And I do. I joke about them "doing the nasty" but SE has never said flatout "CECIL AND ROSA WERE MAKING SWEET LOVE", so I know that anything I believe is pure speculation on my part.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

That's not what the butt touch, the bedroom eyes, etc.

were we playing different games what the christ are you talking about

Plus, the sleeping together using each other as the pillow like they did under the highwind.

Okay, I'll give you that one. But they still never hugged.

Tifa- if not sleeping with Cloud outright in CoT, has unfettered access to his room, to the point where it's not worth raising an eyebrow about.

This really isn't a win for Cloti. In fact, it's kind of sad that they don't just share a room. Not denying the canon or anything, just saying.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Didn't we deal with this like two days ago? The quote IS Risque and Mature. The scene as a whole used to be more explicit, and the presentation was toned down from the chocobo stable to what we have now.

And Ingus and Sarah, Freya and Fratley, Aldebert and Steiner, Zell and Pigtail girl, and Wakka and Lulu don't ever hug either.

Oh, and we have been told 'they express their feelings' eight times without any regards to talking about feelings. Either the version doesn't matter, or the version where they openly express such is actually canon.

 

[Splintered]

I'm curious what the anti-sex people think did happen. Kissing?

lol anti-sex. It sound as if they are teenagers afraid of vaginas or something, which is not the case. Most of us are big girls and boys- and that it's not particularly mind blowing. There's a difference between having a problem with sex in a game, which most people probably don't care, or finding it hard to believe that they did.

I guess, well, embracing is what first came into mind when I read it. Sex is neither the be all or end all of physical displays of affection. If I recall correctly, the most poignant romantic scenes of FFVIII and FFIX were simply hugs/embracing at a critical time. Garnet and Zidane at the end and Squall and Rinoa's reunion.

This is kind of my point. We cannot SEE any actual kiss. But we don't seem to think it an assumption to conclude one happened.

The implication that they (Squall and Rinoa) kissed and if Cloud and Tifa had sex are not on the same level.

In the end, it wasn't about sex anyway. It was about communication. That was the biggest hurdle in FFVII, for Cloud and for CloudTifa. Not being able to express themselves.

 

[Winter]

And Ingus and Sarah, Freya and Fratley, Aldebert and Steiner, Zell and Pigtail girl, and Wakka and Lulu don't ever hug either.

To be fair, Cloud and Tifa don't fall in the same category as them. Those are secondary couples.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

regarding Vaanelo: she kisses his cheek in the sequel, so there is some affection thar.

 

[Zee]

In the end, it wasn't about sex anyway. It was about communication. That was the biggest hurdle in FFVII, for Cloud and for CloudTifa. Not being able to express themselves.

This, this, a million times this.

 

[Isabella]

Guys chill. "Anti-sex" is just shorthand for "anti Sex under the Highwind." I'm not calling anyone prudes.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The implication that they (Squall and Rinoa) kissed and if Cloud and Tifa had sex are not on the same level.

I'm not saying it is. I'm saying that implications of kissing and implications of 'something physical' that may or may not be sex are on the same level, and are narratively similar ways of implying things. My point isn't 'ZOMFG SEX!' with regards to this, but they idea that big PDA type things are the exception rather than the rule, and that even 'kissing' is normally implied rather than shown.

In the end, it wasn't about sex anyway. It was about communication. That was the biggest hurdle in FFVII, for Cloud and for CloudTifa. Not being able to express themselves.

True, but it doesn't preclude the possibility of physicality in their communication, which is sort of what I'm getting at with regards to 'the risque line is only risque if it implies something risque'

 

[Fighter]

So let me get this straight. Cloud and Tifa are a couple but not really a couple because they don't do what couples do. They are "exploring boundaries" for two years and haven't done anything. Forgive me for saying but that's a little silly. It sounds like the same old clerith argument just with different words = C/T relationship is platonic i.e. they are not really a couple.

 

[Winter]

So let me get this straight. Cloud and Tifa are a couple but not really a couple because they don't do what couples do. They are "exploring boundaries" for two years and haven't done anything. Forgive me for saying but that's a little silly. It sounds like the same old clerith argument just with different words = C/T relationship is platonic i.e. they are not really a couple.

I'm not questioning the canonicity of C/T. I've said that quite a few times.

I'm just wondering why SE chooses to portray them this way, that's all.

 

[Fighter]

I'm just wondering why SE chooses to portray them this way, that's all.

Honestly. I'll say this straight. If you don't see in the compilation what is being said directly by the writers then the only thing that proves is that you got it wrong. *shrug*

I still haven't heard anyone logically explain why would anyone call a scene risqué and mature. Why would anyone come up with a blatant scene with the chocobo stables, at all, if the whole scenario wasn't suggestive. Why would Tifa clearly say "You were listening?" in one version and "You were watching!?" in the other. I think it's fine to think they didn't have sex, honestly. But it just wasn't platonic either, at all. And it's more suggestive than what a lot of other FF couples get.

 

[Winter]

If you don't see in the compilation what is being said directly by the writers then the only thing that proves is that you got it wrong. *shrug*

That's not what this discussion was about, did you even read it? I'm wondering why, outside of interviews and Ulitmanias, there's not a lot of solid evidence for Cloti. You can easily watch AC and see it as platonic. I'm not talking about every piece of information we've been given. I'm talking about strictly visible things.

Square Enix COULD have made AC more romantic. I'm wondering why they didn't.

 

[Fighter]

That's not what this discussion was about, did you even read it? I'm wondering why, outside of interviews and Ulitmanias, there's not a lot of solid evidence for Cloti.

But it's there, that's the point. The things in the interviews are in the story. I saw it. I've never even played ffvii before I watched AC. To be honest the C/T relationship for me was far simpler to understand than almost every other plot point in that movie - cause I was lost.

Other people saw it. You saw it as platonic? IMO, don't take offense, you misjudged.

Square Enix COULD have made AC more romantic. I'm wondering why they didn't.

Because Nomura likes being obscure by his own admission, he like being obscure about this topic specifically. And lets be honest he is IMO far from brilliant at it.

 

[crack]

Square Enix COULD have made AC more romantic. I'm wondering why they didn't.

I don't think the movie's main purpose was to give any strong indication on who Cloud's romantic interest was, but to focus on Cloud's struggle to let go of his guilt and overcome his fear of letting his loved ones down. Just my two cents.

I mean, it's almost impossible to make their relationship 'more romantic,' at that point, especially considering the fact that they were struggling with their relationship during most of AC. It would have most likely taken some time for Cloud and Tifa to rebuild their relationship again, after the movie. And it'd be terribly OOC of Cloud to grab Tifa and make out with her while everyone is watching. Cloud's a pussy, after all.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

AC is also not FFIX or FFVIII, where the characters develop their relationship slowly over the course of the game. AC does not have that same amount of time. Moreover, FFVII couldn't have as much development with its romance because the hero wasn't even the actual hero for part of the game. Contrast this with FFIX where Zidane is always a doofy pervert but he develops as a character enough so that he is able to have a serious romance with the princess who also develops.

 

[knit_lace]

But it's there, that's the point. The things in the interviews are in the story. I saw it. I've never even played ffvii before I watched AC. To be honest the C/T relationship for me was far simpler to understand than almost every other plot point in that movie - cause I was lost.

Other people saw it. You saw it as platonic? IMO, don't take offense, you misjudged.

Exactly. The Ultimanias didn't give us new or secret scenes that only a few who bought them can see. All they do is show author's intentions on scenes already shown in the game.Like the highwind scene, for example. If you think nothing physical or romantic happened, well, the Ultimanias correct you.
I also saw AC before playing the game. I thought Aeris was Cloud's deceased past love and Tifa is the current one. I didn't need to see them hugging/kissing to deduce that. Why else would two young people live and raise kids together if they're not a couple.
The weird thing is, after playing the game, I no longer think Aeris is Cloud's past love.