LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Dashell]

It never even occurs to them that they might be wrong. this is what gets me. If you're sitting there confused and wondering why Square suddenly decided to do this when they NEVER did it before and you're constantly having to modify your arguments and the other side is saying, "This is what we've said all along and this is just more proof and it makes sense." that should tell you something.

And it's not that Square is unreliable.

 

[Vendel]

It never even occurs to them that they might be wrong. this is what gets me.

I love the placing of undo importance about who Cloud loves. Yes that is an aspect of the story of FFVII. And very important to Cloud's personal story.

But the creators have never placed it at the level the pinkers (or hardcore shippers in general) give it. Then again this is not unique to the FFVII fandom.

 

[Winter]

In my opinion, the reason Aerith makes frequent appearances in other games and merchandise is because she's iconic. She's strongly associated with FF7, and she's a character a lot of fans want to see more of because their time with her was cut short, for obvious reasons.

I agree, and I also think it's because Aerith was more plot-centric than Tifa was, especially in the original game.

 

[Dashell]

Besides isn't there Cloti merchandise as well?

 

[Isabella]

I agree, and I also think it's because Aerith was more plot-centric than Tifa was, especially in the original game.

Agreed. I think Cloud, Aerith and Sephiroth are most important to the main plot, and they're the three I'd expect to see most often on merchandise.

 

[Vendel]

I also think it's because Aerith was more plot-centric than Tifa was, especially in the original game.

Hummm. I think Tifa had a big part to play in the plot. She is one of the two main heroines of FFVII after all (poor neglected Yuffie).

You really can't call one more important than the other. Aerith needed Cloud to kill Sephy. But without Tifa there would be no Cloud.

So without Tifa, Aerith can't do squat. And Sephy wins.

 

[Dashell]

And funny how once again in the end of Doc Cloud is missing. Who knows where he is? Gosh he sure is having a hard time living with his canon love isn't he?

 

[Isabella]

Aerith = more important to overall plot
Tifa = more important to Cloud's personal arc

And Cloud is looking for his missing friend Vincent at the end of DoC. OMG HOW DARE HE!

 

[Dashell]

I bet he's REALLY having a quickie with Aerith in the flowerfield

 

[Vendel]

Aerith = more important to overall plot
Tifa = more important to Cloud's personal arc

Slight oversimplification. You make it sound like Tifa was just his moral support.

She actually did really important plot related shit.

Aerith got killed.

 

[Isabella]

Vendel, I'd argue with you but I'm on my cell and don't feel like typing a long ass post.

 

[Vendel]

Vendel, I'd argue with you but I'm on my cell and don't feel like typing a long ass post.

I accept your concession.

 

[Ryushikaze]

There is a difference between the plot and the story.

Tifa is more important to the story.
Aerith is more important to the plot the story finds itself in.

The plot is the overall events that take place, whereas the story is the narrative we, as the viewers, are given and are expected to be interested in.
The two go hand in hand but are not the same thing.

An example would be to use the example of Lucrecia and, say, Weiss, in Doc.
Lucrecia has almost nothing to do with the overarcing plot, but she is very relevant to the main character's story.
Weiss, meanwhile, is utterly meaningless to Vincent's story (Until we learn Hojo is involved) but is central to the events of the plot- which helps Vincent's story move from place to place.

 

[Fighter]

So the scan is undeniable.... but what, SE made a mistake?

I feel like addressing Kingdom Hearts:

Cloud searching for Aerith in Kingdom Hearts,

If he was searching for her then why does he keep searching after he's found her?

Cloud running away from Tifa in Kingdom Hearts II

Sephiroth is the darkness of Cloud's past, Tifa is the light of his present. Cloud is not strong enough to face the light because he can't let go of the darkness that's consuming him. That's why when Sephiroth says that, Cloud gets blinded by Tifa's appearance.

Light = good. Darkness = bad. Duh. It's a classic dichotomy representing the struggle in Cloud's mind.

They even fight over Cloud directly. And when Tifa says, "You can have my light," Sephiroth responds with, "Light doesn't suit you," and Cloud wavers between the two confused. And then Cloud fucking glows with light which is why Sephiroth has to jump in screaming, "Stop!" and is driven back by a reinvigorated Cloud. It's a battle of light and darkness in Cloud's mind, represented by Tifa and Sephiroth respectively, fought one step at a time. Even fucking Nomura thinks so.

How difficult is that symbolism to understand?

Or wait, I get it, it's about a guy fleeing from his abusive girlfriend. The blinding light represents the whip she beats him with, darkness is where his mind flees to escape reality and they really belong in Silent Hill not Kingdom Hearts. SE must have mistaken the game.

Of course Aerith never gets jealous of Tifa. And you know what that means......

Aerith gets jealous of Zack talking to other girls. She is also jealous of Cloud and Tifa in Maiden.

 

[Dashell]

So... wasn't there a quote that said that Cloud was running from something warm?

Even fucking Nomura thinks so.

So by having sex with Nomura you prove this somehow?

 

[Fighter]

So by having sex with Nomura you prove this somehow?

That's my secret. Then I make him put lies into Ultimanias.

 

[Dashell]

So there IS a massive Cloti conspiracy

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Duh.

 

[Vendel]

So there IS a massive Cloti conspiracy

Yeah. It's called the entire compilation of FFVII.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Mind is fucking blown.

What is Anastar doing? She's usually much more rational than this.

SE has talked about both versions, and has specified that Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings for one another in the High Affection version only.

I don't see what she's playing at here.

When speaking of the game from an in-universe perspective, they go with the high affection version. The Story Playback of the game in the FF 10th Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition) says: "Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."

No mention is made of there being another version.

And then the Story Playback in the U20 Scenario (pg. 232): "And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."

Here, that there is a second version is mentioned -- but off in the margin, and unlike other divergence scenes throughout the story summary that have descriptions in the margin, this actually has one of the optional outcomes included in the main body of the text.

And, of course, there's the "For the One I Love" page, which requires no further introduction.

These are just a few of many examples, but the point is that SE has not been portraying Cloud and Tifa as a canon couple for the last 12 years.

This is where she really needs to be asking herself "Isn't it possible that I got it wrong?"

Instead, SE has either been evasive or neutral in their comments about the Love Triangle for the past 12 years.

Which would indicate favoritism toward Clerith how?

Nomura has made comments about how he wants to leave room for everyone's line of thought ...

In a quote about who Cloud was searching for in Kingdom Hearts, prior even to the Final Mix version coming out (where Cloud was outright said to be looking for Sephiroth).

... that he wouldn't choose for Cloud ...

He's never said this with regard to the LTD. But even if he had, disregarding that he's not the only one with input on the matter, again, how would that be favoritism for Clerith?

... and even said in an interview with Dorimaga magazine that he had no idea whether Cloud and Tifa were romantically involved after FFVII ...

In an interview half a decade old, and possibly older than Advent Children.

Why would Nomura say such things if the canon couple of FFVII was decided under the Highwind 12 years ago?

This is the kind of reasoning I don't get at all. How is it not possible that they didn't have the matter decided even amongst themselves 13 years ago? For that matter, is it not possible for them to change their minds?

And why is it that a statement made by Nomura so many years ago can't be obsolete in light of new information? Especially when you're arguing that, if a decision were made, Nomura wouldn't be the one to make it?

In the second place, there was never any romance portrayed between Cloud and Tifa in Advent Children or Advent Children Complete. If SE had wanted to make Cloti canon, it seems to me that they would have portrayed Cloud and Tifa as a couple in the movie.

And that's where we get back into where someone should ask theirself "Did I maybe see it wrong?" Portraying two people as a couple does not require romance when their current status and situations are not romantic.

If SE wanted to solve the Love Triangle, it seems to me that they would have done so along with commentary from Nojima, Nomura, and Kitase in a special section of the 10th Anniversary Ultimania dealing with the Love Triangle.

Or maybe it's not that big of a deal to them and they wanted to give special sections to the stuff that is significant.

CloudxTifa supporters are claiming that this is not the only source where SE has stated that Cloud and Tifa confessed their love for one another under the Highwind. However, this is actually not true because all other passages which refer to Cloud and Tifa confessing their feelings under the Highwind have been very vague about what feelings were expressed.

"Feelings of desire for each other" is hardly vague.

Cloud and Tifa, who remained behind [on the airship], confess their feelings for each other. ~pg. 120, 10th Anniversary Ultimania Revised

"To match" has mysteriously disappeared from this "translation" of "残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う."

For example, if that scan means that Cloti became canon in FFVII under the Highwind, then why did Cloud tell Tifa at the end of the game that he wanted to meet Aerith?

Let's look at Case of Tifa for clues as to how long it took him to start wanting Aerith's forgiveness for failing to save her: "I'm going to live. I'll never be forgiven unless I do." On the same night that he made the statement about wanting to see Aerith again.

Didn't take very long.

If Cloud loves Tifa, then why did he move into Aerith's Church before Advent Children/Complete when he thought he was dying? It seems to me that Cloud would want to spend the remaining days of his life with the woman he loves.

It seems to Cloud that if you're a burden on those you love, can't protect them, and are, thus, unworthy of them -- you get the hell away from them while you die.

Also, I really have to ask: If Cloud moved into the church so as to be closer to Aerith in his final days, then why the hell do we have a comment like this from Nomura in the Reunion Files (pg. 29)?:

"I think part of the reason we decided to have Kadaj's base in the Forgotten City is because it's the one place that Cloud avoids. But at the same time, perhaps he's drawn to it. There's a sort of a hidden meaning to it, with the maternal essence of Aerith that lingers there."

So Aerith's essence lingers at the Ancients' city -- yet it's the one place that Cloud avoids.

Syntax error computing somehow anyway?

Wait, wait. No, I get it. I get it now, guys.

Cloud moved to Aerith's church instead of the City of the Ancients because he felt things were moving too fast with her. He wanted to feel close to her, but he wasn't quite ready to make the commitment of "moving in together," if you feel me.

Death doesn't get in the way of them having a relationship -- even though they've not communicated in the two years following her death until the events of AC/C -- so it should come as no surprise that they'd have this same dilemma of "Should we take it slower? I mean, we literally have eternity" that a lot of couples do when both parties are breathing.

So, yeah. He wanted to feel close, but wasn't yet ready to part with his private space, so to speak. Dude is a free spirit, after all!

It all makes sense now.

If Cloti became canon in FFVII under the Highwind, then why did SE say that Aerith's Church is Cloud's Promised Land?

Probably for the reasons in the paragraph under that statement -- the being freed from his guilt, the children being cured, and having all those people he loved around him.

It seems to me that Tifa and his family would be Cloud's Promised Land if Cloud truly loves Tifa.

So we're back to that argument that Que loves to highlight: It's not that the people (Tifa, kids, friends) there are related to Cloud's Promised Land, it's the place (the church) -- and it's the place because of this other person (Aerith) being related to the place.

If Cloud made his love known to Tifa under the Highwind, then why does Tifa ask him in Case of Tifa if he loves her?

If this question has been answered countless times with "It's called a troubled relationship," then why is it still being asked?

If Cloti became canon under the Highwind in FFVII, then why has there been so much merchandise produced by SE that makes CloudxAerith look like a canon couple instead of CloudxTifa?

Perhaps because they don't decide who goes on disc covers on the basis of who's a couple?

For example. there's Amano's artwork of Cloud and Aerith, which can be seen in this essay: The Artwork of Yoshitaka Amano.

And there's art of Cloud with Red XIII. Clonaki FTW?

SE designed the FFVII International Game Disks with pictures of Cloud and Aerith, rather than Cloud and Tifa:

I see Sephiroth on one of those disks. Are they DPing her?

Typically, SE releases statuettes like these for their canon couples.

So you can point to more than one other instance, rather than being able to point to another statue of an iconic scene from another game?

After Advent Children Complete, SE also released this statuette of Cloud standing in Aerith's Church with her light shining on him ...

??????????????????????

So, sunlight shining on Cloud is "Aerith's light."

She really is being painted as God in these arguments, holy shit.

For another thing, the screenshots used for Final Fantasy VII on this page in the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania are both optional scenes, while the screenshots used from other Final Fantasies are all non-optional. Why use optional scenes instead of non-optional scenes with Cloud and Tifa, such as the Promise scene or something from the Lifestream event?

Perhaps because all of the scenes on the page involve the couples in their moments of revelation and/or affirmation, and the Highwind scene is that scene for Cloud and Tifa?

It's also interesting that one of the screenshots from Final Fantasy VII under the heading of "Romantic Love Between Heroes of Final Fantasy" is of the CloudxAerith date scene, while the other shows Cloud and Tifa under the Highwind. If SE intended that this page declare Cloti canon, then why use a picture of the CloudxAerith date scene instead of the CloudxTifa date scene?

This is why you read the text under the fucking screenshot. Then you don't have to speculate over what it's trying to say.

Besides, there's been numerous references to Cloud's feelings for Aerith in the Ultimania's, including a line in Case of Lifestream: White that refers to Cloud as Aerith's koibito.

Except it doesn't reference Cloud's feelings at all since a statement that "[A] is the koibito of " only tells you 's feelings. But that's okay, we don't have to use Japanese the way the language actually works.

In the third place, if SE had decided to make Cloti canon, why is this the only source that clearly says so?

Yet you're acknowledging that it clearly says so. Glad you finally came around and conceded this trivial matter.

P.S. Why is the only place an equivalent statement exists for Clerith ... nowhere?

Personally, I feel there's too many reasons to question that CloudxTifa has been declared the canon couple of the game. If SE truly wanted us to think that, they would have made it clear long ago.

And why do you get to decide the statute of limitations on this?


What the fuck, guys. Seriously, what the fuck?

 

[Vendel]

Mind is fucking blown.

What the fuck, guys. Seriously, what the fuck?

Delayed reaction mind blowing?

I sent you that link 9 hours ago.

 

[Shadowfox]

What the fuck, guys. Seriously, what the fuck?

A longtime shipper's pairing comes under threat. Shipper tries very hard to convince herself that it ain't so.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

BWuahahahahahahaha... **wipes eyes** Oh, God, that was fun. Thanks for the link Bella and the reply Tres. I really wanna know what it feels like to be that deluded--only for a minute. Is it like being shit-faced drunk? (Before the puking) 'Cuz damn...

Yeah, science tells us that the Earth is round, but why, if it's certain wouldn't we have known ALL ALONG. I mean, why would the Earth ever be considered flat if it was always round? It makes no sense. I've seen maps that depict the world completely flat. Just because satellite images clearly show the Earth as round doesn't change anything. Really. Fucking retards.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I agree, and I also think it's because Aerith was more plot-centric than Tifa was, especially in the original game.

Yeah, it's sort of like the difference between Aegis and Mitsuru. Mitsuru holds a lot of plot about her company, that's what makes her important, but Aegis holds a lot of info about the hero that connects him to her company.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

You know what I love most about the Clerith Highwind scene argument, and how there are TWO versions... is how it completely fucking shoots them in the face. Let's say that SE acknowledges both versions. Let's say as a Clerith we decide the LA version is to our preference. You know what that changes? Absolutely nothing, and even worse, the only variable in those scenes is Tifa. Only HER affection changes, so therefore, to get the MATCHING version she must care for Cloud as MUCH as he cares for her.

Cloud doesn't fucking change. At all. His emotions aren't more or less, only Tifa's are. So either she's a bit put off and Cloud doesn't reveal himself, or she gives him the 'go ahead' to act on HIS feelings.

Cloud loves Tifa.

High Affection, Low Affection, Pink Sunglasses or not. I wish they'd just deal with it and grow some spines.

Acknowledge your fantastical-mythical-never-ending-tragic-but-not-so-tragic-because-she-is-always-with-him-forever-twu-love-self-insert-Mary Sure-bullshit-theories can't hold water and enjoy the fanon.