LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Vendel]

If you're trying to argue that Cloud and Aerith's appearances in KH/FFT aren't deliberately romantic, that's ridiculous.

I think it's fucking stupid to say they are romantic.

I'm saying C/A obviously has some ground since SE dicks around with the pairing every once in a while.

No they don't. Let me say again. Just because you have two characters show up in an AU game does not mean it's romantic. At all. Even if it was meant to be then it only applies for that particular AU universe. It is not a hint at anything.

 

[Winter]

I think it's fucking stupid to say they are romantic.



No they don't. Let me say again. Just because you have two characters show up in an AU game does not mean it's romantic. At all. Even if it was meant to be then it only applies for that particular AU universe. It is not a hint at anything.

Haha, good job failing at picking up on SE's anvil sized hints.

Seriously, Cloud rescues Aerith in FFT, which while not necessarily OVERTLY ROMANTIC is generally adorable and he's fixated on her because she reminds him of the Aerith he knew. SE threw this shit in... why? They could have put anyone in there. They picked Cloud and Aerith. I WONDER WHY

The ending of Kingdom Hearts... I can't even.... okay, why would the writers bother to have him specifically reunited with Aerith during everyone else's ROMANTIC REUNITINGS and shit if they arent' trying to leave a hint for us?

jesus what is it about C/A as a pairing that makes all of you so asshurt? It's not like it threatens the canonicity of Cloti.

 

[Celes Chere]

I WILL FIND IT and be back 8D

you guys are so awesome hahaha

Well hurry, because I am bored. XD

 

[Raquelborn]

If you're trying to argue that Cloud and Aerith's appearances in KH/FFT aren't deliberately romantic, that's ridiculous.

Pardon my intrusion, but may I ask why you think they were deliberately romantic?

 

[Madame Mayor]

The ending of Kingdom Hearts... I can't even.... okay, why would the writers bother to have him specifically reunited with Aerith during everyone else's ROMANTIC REUNITINGS and shit if they arent' trying to leave a hint for us?

MinniexDaisy ftw

 

[DrakeClawfang]

jesus what is it about C/A as a pairing that makes all of you so asshurt? It's not like it threatens the canonicity of Cloti.

It's not that way for most LV, it's just Vendel. Anyone who believes Clerith has even the slightest bit of evidence in its favor is clearly an idiot pinker and deserves to be insulted and ridiculed until they accept his opinion Cloti as fact.

 

[Dashell]

The water they made out in was significantly deeper when they went into it than when they were just standing in it. Just like the lake that Aeris was laid to rest in. So that means the parallel with the variable depth of water implies that Cloud.......screw it, I suck at this crackpot theory stuff...

I enjoyed it

And I don't think CxA appearing in different games means squat really because Tifa's there a lot too XD

I think in KH though, Cxt can't happen, because my theory was always that Tifa is Cloud's light manifested. Basically she IS Cloud (same with Seph) so Cloud can't have a relationship with himself

 

[Madame Mayor]

so Cloud can't have a relationship with himself

Or it just gives a whole new meaning to 'self-love'.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I think in KH though, Cxt can't happen, because my theory was always that Tifa is Cloud's light manifested. Basically she IS Cloud (same with Seph) so Cloud can't have a relationship with himself

And if Aerith lives on in Cloud's heart...

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the world of Kingdom Hearts, where narcissism means you're in an actual relationship! CloudxAerithxTifa and SoraxRoxasxXion! Like the song says, "learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all!"

 

[OneWingedDemon]

jesus what is it about C/A as a pairing that makes all of you so asshurt? It's not like it threatens the canonicity of Cloti.

It doesn't have to threaten the "canonicity of Cloti" to be wrong.

 

[Raquelborn]

I think in KH though, Cxt can't happen, because my theory was always that Tifa is Cloud's light manifested. Basically she IS Cloud (same with Seph) so Cloud can't have a relationship with himself

Isn't it more about what it's possibly symbolising? If Sephiroth is his ultimate darkness, she is his light. And so...

Hate vs.... love?

That's how I kind of saw it.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

this makes me think of Bioshock. O lawd...

jesus what is it about C/A as a pairing that makes all of you so asshurt? It's not like it threatens the canonicity of Cloti.

I liek Clerith in KH and am writing a fic for it in KH-universe.

I don't care what you bitches think about it being canon/not-canon/retarded or what the fuck ever, I like it. So no u.

 

[Dashell]

They said Tifa wasn't quite human so... that's how I took it.

 

[Madame Mayor]

Wasn't it "because she is his light you could take it as she's not human but I wanted to leave that up to interpretation"?

 

[Sunstrider]

So does this means people think Cloud's doing the deed with the spirit of a dead girl in one universe while he's banging the physical manifestation of his light in another? This fandom is weird as shit sometimes.

The ending of Kingdom Hearts... I can't even.... okay, why would the writers bother to have him specifically reunited with Aerith during everyone else's ROMANTIC REUNITINGS and shit if they arent' trying to leave a hint for us?

While I don't recall every one of the clips showcasing strictly romantic couples, I do understand the reason a lot of people think this clip means something. If the clip wasn't meant to showcase that Aerith and Cloud have some kind of unique bond in KH (whether it's romantic or not), what was the point of including it? I'd honestly like to hear the "cloti perspective" on this. Keep in mind, I don't think KH has any bearing on FFVII canon or the fact that Cloud/Tifa is canon. No need to set your blasters to kill.

 

[Shadowfox]

Why is it Clerii over at TFC like to post giant lists of quotes without explaining how they fit within their argument? That shit is worth nothing.

Hah, I just got back from reading your gigantic rebuttal there. It's almost as if some Cleriths think that any mention of Cloud and Aerith within the same breath must surely be romantic proof, no matter what is actually being said.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Sephiroth and Tifa appear to be made of the same stuff, only they're opposing forces. I think that's what Q means.
However, both Cloud and Sephiroth are said to go "back to their own world" after they leave and I remember reading somewhere that Sephiroth was once a great hero (although I may have dreamt this up. confirm/deny?), so it doesn't look like he never existed before, even though he says he's born of Cloud's darkness.

Nevertheless, Sephiroth and Tifa embody light and darkness, but they are now separate entities at least.

Not that I think Cloud and Tifa are gonna hook up in the KH world.

 

[Sunstrider]

Sephiroth and Tifa appear to be made of the same stuff, only they're opposing forces. I think that's what Q means.
However, both Cloud and Sephiroth are said to go "back to their own world" after they leave and I remember reading somewhere that Sephiroth was once a great hero (although I may have dreamt this up. confirm/deny?), so it doesn't look like he never existed before, even though he says he's born of Cloud's darkness.

KH is so weird. It isn't enough to just have characters make cameos. They have to pull this abstract shit. You don't see Disney pulling that crap with their characters. Minnie isn't the manifestation of Mickey Mouse's secret desire to wear a dress or something.

Not that I think Cloud and Tifa are gonna hook up in the KH world.

If anything I think Cloud should hook up with Sephiroth in the KH-verse. He seems more focused on the dark side than he is on either girl.

 

[Fighter]

While I don't recall every one of the clips showcasing strictly romantic couples, I do understand the reason a lot of people think this clip means something. If the clip wasn't meant to showcase that Aerith and Cloud have some kind of unique bond in KH (whether it's romantic or not), what was the point of including it? I'd honestly like to hear the "cloti perspective" on this. Keep in mind, I don't think KH has any bearing on FFVII canon or the fact that Cloud/Tifa is canon. No need to set your blasters to kill.

You at least get an option of showing interest in Aerith, there is some flirting, you can go on a date, ect. It's a legitimate "ship" it's just not a canon pair. So I don't mind that they play with it in AU as long as we remember that it's AU fanservice, not an extension of the compilation.

They said Tifa wasn't quite human so... that's how I took it.

Real or not. The very idea that Cloud would conjure up Tifa as the counterpart to his darkness being Sephiroth has some real gravitas that makes it hard not to think of love.

 

[looneymoon]

I certainly support people preferring C/A or even wanting to read in romance or attraction into their time together - that's fine, in fact, the game let's the player indulge in such a way, but anything more I've never seen. As you say LM, the player craft's Cloud's feelings for Aeris, not the character and to some degree, the player can also do the same for Tifa, but overall as a story on its own, its very clear that even when it was just FF7 with no complication, it was Tifa Cloud was meant to end up with, the whole Lifestream sequence makes that point abundantly clear, regardless of whether the player has played the game to shift the "game" into offering a slightly alternative low affection Highwind tangent.

Bolded part is basically what I was trying to say By legitimate, I say in the sense that Cloud/Aeris has a bit more to go on than say... Cloud/Priscilla. It's hard to argue the fact that the game itself sort of dangles the couple in your face in trying to distract you from what's really going on. I do admist that virtually all of it is based on optional/AU stuff. The fact that the optional stuff is there doesn't make the coupling unfounded imo. If C/A were a truly outrageous concept (disregarding crazy fan theories) then I doubt there would even be any sort of debate in the first place.

I think its great some C/A are now saying "yes, we see Cloti is canon, but we prefer C/A". Cool, but there is a natural urge for the other "side" to feel the need to bend equally and say "well, there is probably evidence that Cleris could be the case in theory even though it never happened". I still don't really see any indication of that throughout the compilation, so while I'd happily bend if there was reason to, I'm afraid I have to seem smug and do the "I'm right you're wrong" dance.

Pretty much this.


Also, red herring or not I think it comes with the characteristics of the medium. To a certain extent Cloud is an extension of the player. Emphasis on the certain extent. It doesn't change the overall outcome of the narrative, but it does give us a certain variability in the stuff that doesn't drastically change the story. The experience of FF7 is largely linear, but I don't think it's fair to ignore the distinctly video game elements to it either. In that way I find it's a little bit unfair to analyze the game as you would a film or novel, but that's going into a whole different topic.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Haha, good job failing at picking up on SE's anvil sized hints.

Seriously, Cloud rescues Aerith in FFT, which while not necessarily OVERTLY ROMANTIC is generally adorable and he's fixated on her because she reminds him of the Aerith he knew. SE threw this shit in... why? They could have put anyone in there. They picked Cloud and Aerith. I WONDER WHY

Actually, he's NOT fixated on her, beyond "You remind me of someone I knew... See ya!"
I mean, yes, he does rescue AlterAerith, but only because he's there at the right time. He then proceeds to scarper off and never mention anything of the sort ever again.

The ending of Kingdom Hearts... I can't even.... okay, why would the writers bother to have him specifically reunited with Aerith during everyone else's ROMANTIC REUNITINGS and shit if they arent' trying to leave a hint for us?

Actually, it isn't. It's sandwiched right between Gheppeto and Pinnochio's scene and Minnie and Daisy's scene.
So it's outside the frame of the romantic reunitings.
Not that it's meaningless, but I think it's more about the fillial, and the reuniting of the whole HB gang than anything else, given it's Cid presenting a Cloud who doesn't really do anything.
I think it might seem romantic if you assumed it was romantic, but wasn't really such in the end, much with a lot of the first disc of FF1's wafflings.

jesus what is it about C/A as a pairing that makes all of you so asshurt? It's not like it threatens the canonicity of Cloti.

It doesn't, not does it make us butthurt. But it does sort of take a bit more than 'It's obviously romantic, because' to sway people.

 

[Ryushikaze]

KH is so weird. It isn't enough to just have characters make cameos. They have to pull this abstract shit. You don't see Disney pulling that crap with their characters. Minnie isn't the manifestation of Mickey Mouse's secret desire to wear a dress or something.

You mean she isn't? Well, there goes all my understanding of Disney down the tubes...

If anything I think Cloud should hook up with Sephiroth in the KH-verse. He seems more focused on the dark side than he is on either girl.

He's Simba. Simple as that.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

KH is so weird. It isn't enough to just have characters make cameos. They have to pull this abstract shit. You don't see Disney pulling that crap with their characters. Minnie isn't the manifestation of Mickey Mouse's secret desire to wear a dress or something.

I LOLed irl

Well, Nomura WOULD be quite attached to the FF7 characters. It was his first work as actual chara designer, wasn't it?

Not that it's meaningless, but I think it's more about the fillial, and the reuniting of the whole HB gang than anything else, given it's Cid presenting a Cloud who doesn't really do anything.

THIS.
Why is it meaningless unless it's romantic?

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Honestly, the 'shipping of Clerith isn't illogical--at least no more so than shipping SephirothxCloud/Clack/Fack/Aerti or any other of the infinite 'ships the FF world can give us. Clerith doesn't make anyone butthurt--except the Cleriths apparently.

I personally saw nothing more romantic between Cloud and Aerith in KH than I did Aerith and Leon. People still ship that shit.

Cloud has a protective bond with Aerith--duh. Friends--close friends. Affection and love, certainly. Romance? I really don't see it. Do I have to? No, it doesn't really require my validation. Why should it matter to the Cleriths if the Cloti acknowledge romantic potential where there isn't any? (At least so far as we see?)

 

[Strangelove]

Yeah I'm not saying that "it's in past tense" should be an argument but the whole story IS in past tense and people keep writing that one statement as if it should be in present tense. That's what's bugging me.

Actually, the whole story might not be in past tense

I don't remember now, since Nojima was influenced by translated novels, but Japanese novels aren't always so strict with tenses. I think most will be in the past tense, but occasionally you'll get present tense ones in there as well.

That sentence was in the past tense, though, so that might not matter much

Fuck y'all, my hands are cold and I'm off to read a book in Japanese and look out for this now