LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Tennyo]

While I don't recall every one of the clips showcasing strictly romantic couples

Yes they do.

Geppetto/Pinocchio is my OTP, dontcha know?

 

[Winter]

u guise I know that not all of the couples were romantic, obviously. But really, within KH verse, what would Aerith's significance to Cloud be?

If the clip wasn't meant to showcase that Aerith and Cloud have some kind of unique bond in KH (whether it's romantic or not), what was the point of including it?

This is exactly what I meant, except I was too lazy and moody to phrase it that nicely.

I'd honestly like to hear the "cloti perspective" on this. Keep in mind, I don't think KH has any bearing on FFVII canon or the fact that Cloud/Tifa is canon. No need to set your blasters to kill.

This too.

Not that it's meaningless, but I think it's more about the fillial, and the reuniting of the whole HB gang than anything else, given it's Cid presenting a Cloud who doesn't really do anything.

Then why focus on only Cloud and Aerith?

Also, you guys seem to think that I'm under the impression that Cloud and Aerith being in a game together is romantic. I don't think that. I do think that what happens to them and their interaction both in KH and FFT is intentionally romantic.

 

[Tennyo]

Quite frankly, I think the focus on Cloud and Aerith was there because it was cute. Cid is there, Leon is there, and to be honest I don't see Leon as the type to go up to someone the way that Aerith did.

Also, as for Nomura's comment on the answer being in the KH credits, as far as I'm aware he was talking about the KH2 credits, in which Aerith as ALONE (with a sparkly butterfly).

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Also, as for Nomura's comment on the answer being in the KH credits, as far as I'm aware he was talking about the KH2 credits, in which Aerith as ALONE (with a sparkly butterfly).

She's waiting in the last place Cloud was, I thought it was cute since she said she'd wait for him.

 

[Ryushikaze]

u guise I know that not all of the couples were romantic, obviously. But really, within KH verse, what would Aerith's significance to Cloud be?

A good friend? A big sister? A comrade in arms?

Then why focus on only Cloud and Aerith?

But it doesn't just focus only on them. It's got the crew together, Cid and Cloud, Cloud sheepishly walking forward and then Aerith looking at him.
Compare that to Alladin and Jasmine with their embrace, then to the Minnie and Daisy watching the Duck triplets running with the mops, or the destiny Island crew. Unlike the A/J scene, this one has no embrace, there's nothing in the others indicating that this is 'oo la la' like with Genie and his peeking in through his 'covered' eyes.
It strikes me as being very vague if it's supposed to be romantic, and then they had KH:FM undercut most of the assumptions people ran with in the original game.

Also, you guys seem to think that I'm under the impression that Cloud and Aerith being in a game together is romantic. I don't think that. I do think that what happens to them and their interaction both in KH and FFT is intentionally romantic.

The fact that you mention FFT as 'intentionally romantic' is kind of what trips that response, I think. Cuz... it's not. Cloud and Razma save IvAerith from loan sharks, and then nothing is ever spoken about it again.

 

[Isabella]

I don't have to much to add about KH because I didn't play more than 3 hours of it before I got annoyed. But I have seen the credits thing on YouTube and damn, could Cloud look any less enthused to see her? Could he at least look at her? Why is he so sullen if he's been reunited with his "light," the woman he's supposedly been looking for?

 

[Dashell]

He looks enraptured dammit

A good friend? A big sister? A comrade in arms?

Ryu, those are just her character traits

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Haha, good job failing at picking up on SE's anvil sized hints.

Seriously, Cloud rescues Aerith in FFT, which while not necessarily OVERTLY ROMANTIC is generally adorable and he's fixated on her because she reminds him of the Aerith he knew.

I agree that it's adorable. Not necessarily romantic, but adorable.

It didn't make me think of the pairing and go "aww," but it did make me look at Cloud and go "aww."

Still, I can accept that in a debate as a nod to the idea by Square -- at least in so far as they know people will take it that way. Hell, it was still 1997 for fuck's sake.

LTD was not over at the time.

SE threw this shit in... why? They could have put anyone in there. They picked Cloud and Aerith. I WONDER WHY

To fuck with us and make us wonder how in the hell that could possibly happen. You can explain Cloud showing up in Ivalice pretty easily.

Falls into Lifestream, gets pulled there by the Celestial Globe. He references the fall into the stream, after all. Why there's an Aerith lookalike who also sells flower and has the same name, though?

Only way you can explain that shit, really, is the same way you do with the recurring summons throughout the FF omniverse, and the way you can explain the parallels between FFII and FFIV -- similar concepts were housed in the original crystal of creation that spawned everything.

Fanwank FTW.

The ending of Kingdom Hearts... I can't even.... okay, why would the writers bother to have him specifically reunited with Aerith during everyone else's ROMANTIC REUNITINGS and shit if they arent' trying to leave a hint for us?

In fairness, like Ryu said, the scene was bookended by a scene at Mickey's castle and then Pinnochio realizing he was a real boy. It was only after that scene that we see Aladdin and Jasmine romantically reunited -- and even then they were the only such couple to be shown.

I think in KH though, Cxt can't happen, because my theory was always that Tifa is Cloud's light manifested. Basically she IS Cloud (same with Seph) so Cloud can't have a relationship with himself

Agreed. If Cloud has a living light in KH, a la Kairi for Sora, then it was Aerith, I think. Thematically, she's the only candidate.

Not that this says shit about the main FFVII universe, of course.

Wasn't it "because she is his light you could take it as she's not human but I wanted to leave that up to interpretation"?

She's obviously his inner light manifested. That's the only way to explain what you see on-screen in combination with Sephiroth's comments throughout the game.

While I don't recall every one of the clips showcasing strictly romantic couples, I do understand the reason a lot of people think this clip means something. If the clip wasn't meant to showcase that Aerith and Cloud have some kind of unique bond in KH (whether it's romantic or not), what was the point of including it?

No, it was definitely indicating a unique bond between them, whether it be romantic or something else.

Not that it's meaningless, but I think it's more about the fillial, and the reuniting of the whole HB gang than anything else, given it's Cid presenting a Cloud who doesn't really do anything.

Then why focus on only Cloud and Aerith?

Indeed. While the main HB trio are shown in the same shot at first, the framing and blocking of the shot with the reaction to Cid and Cloud showing up calls especial attention to Aerith.

We then see a shot of Cid and Cloud -- and then Cloud alone is framed within the subsequent shot. And then Aerith and Cloud alone in the next.

This is basic cinematic language the same way that a cut to a close-up of Tifa smiling at Cloud at the end of AC/C followed by a cut to him smiling while looking off-screen means that he's looking at her while smiling.

Aerith and Cloud are emphasized in the reunion scene in KH's credits. You can debate as to what it means, but it most certainly means that a bond of some kind between the two is being emphasized.

 

[Celes Chere]

. I do think that what happens to them and their interaction both in KH and FFT is intentionally romantic.

I don't get how their interactions in either game are romantic. FFT I can kind of see, but it's kind of your interpretation there. As for KH, I just do not see it. I see Aerith as a close friend to Cloud, as I have always seen her. It seems Aerith spends more time with Squall than she does with Cloud anyway, so OMG canon? I mean, she already has Squall whipped.

Aerith even says that Cloud's light will lead him back, so she quite clearly isn't his light nor is she the thing that he has been searching for. She also wasn't refered to as a parallel to AC, but Cloud and Tifa's relationship was. I don't have the quote though, so anyone please be my guest. xD Everyone is saying that you think that them appearing together makes them a couple, and I see why- because that's what they do in KH- appear together. Nothing else. xD

I disagree about Aerith being Cloud's representation of light, however. Aerith was already described as a medium in an interview, and Tifa and Sephy are described as light and darkness. And if Tifa were literally his light, she'd be a part of him, in his heart and soul. She represents a warm feeling he was running from in AC, so I don't see how that's NOT romantic. The way she acts in KH though, doesn't make me think she's a part of Cloud. CloudxCloud would be rather awkward, indeed. When they say that she may not be there, I think that she is a being of light, not necessarily a part of Cloud.

 

[Loxetta]

As open as I am to Clerith and possibilities with it, I really don't understand why one would think their interactions in KH/2 are romantic, at all. In the first game, they're by eachother for an awkward, albeit sweet, handful of seconds, and in the second game there wasn't any romantic overtones in their conversation, it all felt very platonic-I'm-worried-about-you, imo. I see them being good friends and close and all that, but hell, I'm able to read more romantic subtext between Aerith and Leon than I can with her and Cloud.

I have trouble envisioning KH!Cloud with anyone, in fact. He's too obsessed with his darkness bullshit to be in any kind of relationship, except maybe a love-hate one with Sephiroth

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Why is he so sullen?

It's Cloud?

 

[Dashell]

I have trouble envisioning KH!Cloud with anyone, in fact. He's too obsessed with his darkness bullshit to be in any kind of relationship, except maybe a love-hate one with Sephiroth

I love you now

 

[Madame Mayor]

She's obviously his inner light manifested. That's the only way to explain what you see on-screen in combination with Sephiroth's comments throughout the game.

All I was pointing out is that the quote about whether or not she's human wasn't a definite answer, it was a "you can think about it this way because we left it open".

For now, I completely agree with you that it seems to be the logical conclusion. However, I don't want to get too attached to the idea until they actually reveal whether or not she's actually a real person.

 

[Isabella]

It's Cloud?

I was just firing back a common Clerithism, silly. I get tired of seeing, "if he loves Tifa, why doesn't he run to her and embrace her in the AC credits? Why does he get silent instead of whispering sweet nothings in her ear in the HW scene?" etc etc

I KNOW it's Cloud, and I know that's the way he always is. I just chuckle at the double standards is all.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Aerith even says that Cloud's light will lead him back, so she quite clearly isn't his light nor is she the thing that he has been searching for.

Depends on whether she's talking about his external light or inner light. I think she was talking about the latter.

As for what he was searching for, Sora and Cloud's first conversation does imply that he has searched for his light as well:

Cloud: I’m looking for someone. Hades promised to help. I tried to exploit the power of darkness, but it backfired. I fell into darkness, and couldn’t find the light.

Sora: You’ll find it. I’m searching, too.

Cloud: For your light? Don’t lose sight of it.

Cloud could certainly have been looking for both his light and Sephiroth, the same as Sora searched for Kairi (his light) and Riku.

And, really, within the first KH, who else is a candidate to be Cloud's light? We know he wasn't looking for Tifa, because he was running from her in KHII.

That's another reason why I think she represents his inner light and not an external one.

She also wasn't refered to as a parallel to AC, but Cloud and Tifa's relationship was.

True that. It's certainly a comment on Cloud in AC/C, though I don't think it says anything about Tifa's nature in KH.

I don't have the quote though, so anyone please be my guest.

Nojima in the KH II Ultimania (http://www.kh2.co.uk/?page=NI/KH2U):

"Tifa wasn't planned to appear at first. I was talking with Tetsu about what
Cloud could be doing in Hallow Bastion, and we eventually moved towards him
chasing after Sephiroth, but also being chased by something himself. So
Cloud's really running from something but goes around pretending, saying that
he's chasing Sephiroth. Then we decided to make it him running from the
'something warm' like what Tifa was after in AC."

I disagree about Aerith being Cloud's representation of light, however. Aerith was already described as a medium in an interview, and Tifa and Sephy are described as light and darkness.

I don't think a person has to necessarily be more oriented toward the light or darkness to be another person's light.

That's not really an area of the KH metaphysics we've seen delved into -- but, to me, it just doesn't sound like something that would be necessary.

And if Tifa were literally his light, she'd be a part of him, in his heart and soul. She represents a warm feeling he was running from in AC, so I don't see how that's NOT romantic.

Its commentary on AC/C could be, but within KH it doesn't have to be. It can merely refer to him running from being balanced, comfortable, strong, etc. or be an example of thinking he doesn't belong in the light.

When they say that she may not be there, I think that she is a being of light, not necessarily a part of Cloud.

Why would a random embodiment of light show up to help Cloud and know so much about him?

 

[Winter]

I KNOW it's Cloud, and I know that's the way he always is. I just chuckle at the double standards is all.

It's okay Isabella, I saw what you did there.

In the same sense, it's possible for Cloud to leave Aerith in Hollow Bastion unceremoniously and still care for her a lot.

He's just not good with people.

also just because I really, really love it, can somebody fetch me the quote about Aerith being both light and dark?

p.s. I will find those youtube clips soon I swear, I AM SO EASILY DISTRACTED

 

[Celes Chere]

Depends on whether she's talking about his external light or inner light. I think she was talking about the latter.

Well, consider this when you think about Tifa being Cloud's inner light. It could be that Tifa was the one that helped him FIND his inner light, not necessarily that she literally is his inner light. She could be a being of light, that helped him find his light. X_X That sounds dumb, doesn't it? XD I always had the idea in my head when it comes to KH, that Cloud and Tifa were together, and then he started to run from her. Kind of like in AC, they lived together and then he left. (Of course I thought that after playing KH2)

And, really, within the first KH, who else is a candidate to be Cloud's light?

Not Aerith, because he's still searching by the time KH2 comes around. O__o'

I don't think a person has to necessarily be more oriented toward the light or darkness to be another person's light.

Well, I suppose that is true.. ^^;

 

[Sunstrider]

Not Aerith, because he's still searching by the time KH2 comes around. O__o'

Does Cloud ever say he's searching for his light still in KH2? I assumed he was running from it if anything, as Tres said because he thinks he doesn't belong in it. What he was actively looking for was Sephiroth and not so much his light. What he needs and what he's looking for aren't necessarily the same thing. Look at AC. What he needs is the support and love of the people who love him most. What he's looking for is forgiveness from people who never blamed him in the first place. I know KH and FFVII aren't the same universes, but the characters seem to carry similar themes.

Honestly, I think Cloud's light as it were is a lot of things put together rather than one girl or the other. And oh yes. New avatar is relevant.

 

[Celes Chere]

But Aerith says "Your light will lead you back here". What exactly does that mean to you guys? //curious//

 

[Dashell]

OT

I always loved the "Cloud runs away from Tifa in KH2 so he hates her" argument.

 

[Sunstrider]

I don't mean Aerith is his light. Personally, I think Cloud's light is something more than Tifa or Aerith or Winnie the Pooh. I think Tifa represents his light in a way, and maybe she's his inner light if we want to go that far. But I think Cloud's light is a mixture of the people that love and support him (Aerith, Tifa, Winnie the Pooh...) and a part of himself that he doesn't acknowledge anymore because he fell to the darkness. I don't know if this is at all backed up in KH canon; I don't know all the interviews as well, but it's what I gathered. Or maybe just what I'd like to believe.

But Aerith says "Your light will lead you back here". What exactly does that mean to you guys? //curious//

I'm a bad person to ask. I think she means once he realizes how much people care about him, once he realizes that he isn't a being solely steeped in darkness, that he'll come home. And I also think Tifa is the perfect representation of this light, a manifestation of light that he tries to run from because he can't comprehend how it's a part of him. It's a good role for Tifa to portray, I think.

 

[Winter]

Honestly, I think Cloud's light as it were is a lot of things put together rather than one girl or the other. And oh yes. New avatar is relevant.

I second this. Unlike a lot of characters in the series, I think that Cloud's light is something far less tangible.

I always loved the "Cloud runs away from Tifa in KH2 so he hates her" argument.

It's a dumb argument, but I'm not gonna lie, I did not like KH2's depiction of Tifa. I got her symbolism, and Leaute's right, it works very well for her.

But without the context I didn't feel like she was really... herself. for such a strong, well developed character they managed to make her look really clingy. I was disappointed.

maybe that's just me though.

Off topic: I hope there's FFXIII characters in KH3.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Does Cloud ever say he's searching for his light still in KH2? I assumed he was running from it if anything, as Tres said because he thinks he doesn't belong in it. What he was actively looking for was Sephiroth and not so much his light. What he needs and what he's looking for aren't necessarily the same thing. Look at AC. What he needs is the support and love of the people who love him most. What he's looking for is forgiveness from people who never blamed him in the first place. I know KH and FFVII aren't the same universes, but the characters seem to carry similar themes.

Honestly, I think Cloud's light as it were is a lot of things put together rather than one girl or the other. And oh yes. New avatar is relevant.

I'm not sure he was ever searching for his light to begin with.
I figured he felt much like he did in AC/C, unworthy of his light, so running from it.
Also, Winnie the Pooh is TTLY his light.

More seriously, I think the inner/outer light distinction is rather a lot of nonsense, only that there IS light, and it can be found both in a person and outside of them, and darkness the same.
So while Seph and Teef are embodiments of light and dark, they aren't (or in Seph's case, WEREN'T) given birth from light and dark, but only act as vessels for them. Seph, though, I think was reborn from Cloud's lingering darkness.

 

[Isabella]

I'm loving Leaute's avatar.

That is all.

 

[Celes Chere]

I hope there's FFXIII characters in KH3.

I don't.

And Ryu said what's on my mind.