LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[pandamonium]

I don't think anyone is saying that audience interpretation isn't important to a work--or a contribution to the work--but having said that, if I read a piece that reads like two people are dancing in the kitchen and it turns out that the author wrote a story about a drunk father beating the fuck out of his kid--and yes, there really is a poem that uses lovely metaphors to do this--does the fact that someone else reads "dancing" as literally that and NOT what the author intended make their 'interpretation' as valid or as legitimate as what was, in fact, the intended metaphor? No. Authorial intent cannot be erased by broad sweeping.

You mean 'My Papa's Waltz'? ...Never thought it was about child abuse. ^^' I thought it was an elegy to the boy's father, considering the author's biography, and certain words... But I digress.

Anyway, I was just curious. I'm halfway through Disc 2 on the original game, and I was wondering, what on earth was being debated? What was the argument for Cloud and Aerith, I mean? If I remember correctly, first time I watched Advent Children, they still had some credibility, some points that could be argued... But what exactly where they? The game itself seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Dashell]

You want us to play by a certain set of rules, ask us to play by them. Simple as that. Don't bitch and scream that your set of rules are the only ones that count without offering justification.

What's odd is that I do notice the Cleriths rely mostly on the games and movie, and Clotis rely a lot on the books and stuff.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've found that C/T advocates rely mostly on fact, whereas C/A advocates rely on emotional guessing. Pinkers rely on lying and quote mining.

 

[Dashell]

And then there's Tana who's in a league all of her own

 

[Tennyo]

Actually, not really. She's just your run-of-the-mill troll. The internet is full of them.

 

[Celes Chere]

And then there's Tana who's in a league all of her own

Oh, come on guys! Don't you want to be known as THE CLITOS?

Anyway, I was just curious. I'm halfway through Disc 2 on the original game, and I was wondering, what on earth was being debated? What was the argument for Cloud and Aerith, I mean? If I remember correctly, first time I watched Advent Children, they still had some credibility, some points that could be argued... But what exactly where they? The game itself seems pretty clear to me.

Yeah, I agree with you. Even before disc two started, I could tell Tifa and Cloud had some pretty strong feelings. And Cloud wasn't even himself at the time. As for Advent Children, it's the fact that Cloud supposedly wanted to die to be with Aerith, and left home because of Aerith. ACC proves both of these ideas to be incorrect. In fact, it has little to do with revolving around Aerith, but around those close to him dying and his own happiness- his family - and finding a cure for Denzel. Of course, his guilt too.

I suppose the remaining reason is that Cloud specifically wants Aerith's forgiveness, and the hand reach scene seems romantic to some people. Personally, I find these moments touching, but only shows a strong bond. Not a relationship, or love.

 

[null]

You want us to play by a certain set of rules, ask us to play by them. Simple as that. Don't bitch and scream that your set of rules are the only ones that count without offering justification.

There are valid points in a textual only criticism, but never as the be all end all of the discussion.
As a major example, read Salman Rushdie novels without knowing a damn thing about the man or the politics of the time.
You'll get a picture, but you'll never get the whole picture.

Take the bait, damn it. Call me a troll so I can point out that my "authorial intent" was ignored.

Also, Tana is cool. What exactly did she do to become so vilified? Call people Clitos?

 

[Tennyo]

Oh, come on guys! Don't you want to be known as THE CLITOS?

Cloud and Tifa were never the first thing to pop into my mind whenever someone used that term...

 

[Dashell]

Please tell us in great detail what WAS the first thing. Provide stock pictures if you can.

 

[Celes Chere]

You saying that with your baby Bowser picture makes my stomach upset. DX

 

[Dashell]

Bowser Jr has neeeeeds

 

[Ryushikaze]

Cloud and Tifa were never the first thing to pop into my mind whenever someone used that term...

I am the Clit Commander!

You know, the Clit. The Radical offshot of the Liberate Apes Before Imprisoning Apes movement?

 

[Dashell]

You know, the Clit. The Radical offshot of the Liberate Apes Before Imprisoning Apes movement?

... no I don't

 

[null]

Anyway, I was just curious. I'm halfway through Disc 2 on the original game, and I was wondering, what on earth was being debated? What was the argument for Cloud and Aerith, I mean? If I remember correctly, first time I watched Advent Children, they still had some credibility, some points that could be argued... But what exactly where they? The game itself seems pretty clear to me.

Don't think anyone answered this for you. (Actually Hope totally did, but I digress. ) Well, it was based on several things.

Basically it all starts with the plot of Disk 1 and the inherent ambiguity of the game's optional dialogue. Aerith is (literally) first on the scene and immediately starts making bold moves on Cloud. And players who prefer Aerith make dialogue choices which, combined with scenes that are stereotypically trappings of romantic interplay, make it seem clear that Cloud and Aerith are falling in love.

Players who didn't make those dialogue choices obviously took issue with this; hence, the LTD was born. Neither side could really claim optional dialogue as real proof of romance, and so the debate shifted to focus on non-optional plot. This is where CxA began to circle the toilet bowl. The game's plot twist on Disk 2 makes all of Cloud's actions in Disk 1 suspect; at the same time, a very clear and powerful story arc between Cloud and Tifa begins to emerge, fleshed out by the scene in the Lifestream and capped by the Night under the Highwind. CxA isn't left with much to work with, except for a scene where Cloud accepts an outreaching hand in the Lifestream and says "I think I can meet her... there." And, the fact that nowhere in the game does Cloud specifically say "I love you" to anyone.

At this point things got really nutty. The CxA side began organizing a set of talking points based on "evidence" having nothing to do with the plot. Most of it had to do with some very... nebulous symbolism and Japanese culture. Other points included Cloud and Aerith's cameo appearances in other games, Tifa's absence from the early drafts of the game, Aerith's prominence in the game and high visibility in advertising, and comparisons with "canon" couples found in other FF games. A website called Destiny Fulfilled, a CxA shrine, went whole-hog with this angle, writing essays on topics such as the number of displays of affection Cloud shows to either girl.

The hilarity that ensued from these "proofs" being presented seriously is the stuff of legend.

 

[Dashell]

And monkeys

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I am the Clit Commander!

You know, the Clit. The Radical offshot of the Liberate Apes Before Imprisoning Apes movement?

J&SB ftw!

 

[null]

And monkeys

And that.

 

[Edley]

Now, you and your sidekick are finally in the grasp of COCK KNOCKER!

 

[Madame Mayor]

Stuff

That was really well put. Good job.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Don't think anyone answered this for you. (Actually Hope totally did, but I digress. ) Well, it was based on several things.

Basically it all starts with the plot of Disk 1 and the inherent ambiguity of the game's optional dialogue. Aerith is (literally) first on the scene and immediately starts making bold moves on Cloud. And players who prefer Aerith make dialogue choices which, combined with scenes that are stereotypically trappings of romantic interplay, make it seem clear that Cloud and Aerith are falling in love.

Players who didn't make those dialogue choices obviously took issue with this; hence, the LTD was born. Neither side could really claim optional dialogue as real proof of romance, and so the debate shifted to focus on non-optional plot. This is where CxA began to circle the toilet bowl. The game's plot twist on Disk 2 makes all of Cloud's actions in Disk 1 suspect; at the same time, a very clear and powerful story arc between Cloud and Tifa begins to emerge, fleshed out by the scene in the Lifestream and capped by the Night under the Highwind. CxA isn't left with much to work with, except for a scene where Cloud accepts an outreaching hand in the Lifestream and says "I think I can meet her... there." And, the fact that nowhere in the game does Cloud specifically say "I love you" to anyone.

At this point things got really nutty. The CxA side began organizing a set of talking points based on "evidence" having nothing to do with the plot. Most of it had to do with some very... nebulous symbolism and Japanese culture. Other points included Cloud and Aerith's cameo appearances in other games, Tifa's absence from the early drafts of the game, Aerith's prominence in the game and high visibility in advertising, and comparisons with "canon" couples found in other FF games. A website called Destiny Fulfilled, a CxA shrine, went whole-hog with this angle, writing essays on topics such as the number of displays of affection Cloud shows to either girl.

The hilarity that ensued from these "proofs" being presented seriously is the stuff of legend.

Null's synopsis doesn't do the lulz justice. I should find some of the threads I had archived, dig out some random craziness for the fun of it.

 

[Dashell]

Yes plz I love teh crazyness.

 

[cReo]

...hello everyone.... i just finished playing the game

Spoiler

(fuck.. my bro's laughed at me coz i'm playing an "outdated" game.....weh, better than becoming a laughing stock for debating/discussing something you know nothing of....)

and i agree that there seems nothing to debate.... i also agree that if you watch advent children without playing the game and reading some novellas, you will think that cloud might really love aerith....


i never understand why some cleriths choose not to use their common sense and and forget their logic just to prove a ship...


and ryu, i'm patiently waiting for teh "crazyness"....

 

[pandamonium]

Null's synopsis doesn't do the lulz justice. I should find some of the threads I had archived, dig out some random craziness for the fun of it.

and ryu, i'm patiently waiting for teh "crazyness"....

So am I, hahaha. Please? XD

But anyway, first time I watched Advent Children, I got the impression that Cloud, Tifa and Aerith were in some sort of love triangle before, but I wasn't really sure what to make of that 'Mother' thing. I gravitated towards Cloud and Tifa, anyway.

 

[Raquelborn]

But anyway, first time I watched Advent Children, I got the impression that Cloud, Tifa and Aerith were in some sort of love triangle before, but I wasn't really sure what to make of that 'Mother' thing. I gravitated towards Cloud and Tifa, anyway.

Cloud calling Aerith mother, and then her having a playful discussion with Zack (even though I didn't know who the hec he was at the time) was what made me think less of Cloud and Aerith as a couple. It just doesn't really fit. It would certainly be a strange way to portray them as the canon couple.

 

[null]

A few archived threads won't do it justice either tbh. This is over a decade of pwnage, denial, backtracking, and bat-shit craziness we're talkin' bout here.

But if someone could post the Cleris Condom that would be greeeeaaaaaaat....