LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Makoeyes987]

I'm trying to decide if there is an actual debate going on here or if it is just trolls trolling each other.

..Are you not reading or something? How do you confuse a debate on canon with trolling?

 

[Tennyo]

Because some of the ideas being presented from one side seem to be too far out there to be actual arguments.

Maybe it's more along the lines of one troll trolling another discreetly?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Who's side are you referring to? XD

 

[Tennyo]

I'm talking about Tres. I don't believe for a second that he actually believes anything of what he said.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I think Ryu was saying that he suspected Cloud was an even bigger mirror of Zack for Aerith than we'd known.

That, and that Aerith was lying to herself about Zack's demise at the start of the game. Especially given her being able to sense a man she never met from halfway across the world, it make-a no sense she can't sense her loverboy biting it a few miles down the road.

But, yeah, I too think CC doesn't really matter all that much. In a lot of respects.

It matters. It hits a few stumbling blocks, but pfeh.

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I'm trying to decide if there is an actual debate going on here

Was there ever?

or if it is just trolls trolling each other.

See also - thelifestream.net.

*rimshot*

 

[Tennyo]

lol drake joo so funneh

 

[DrakeClawfang]

I know right?

 

[Loxetta]

How does Crisis Core contradict canon? Does not compute.

 

[Zee]

How does Crisis Core contradict canon? Does not compute.

Boku wa kimi no vanilla?

 

[Loxetta]

Boku wa kimi no vanilla?

I'll take your word for it.

But no, really, I don't get it.

 

[Vendel]

Ever since ACC came out I have been searching for answers about Zack's beefed up role. What does it all mean?

Luckily I did find the answers.

We also know that Aerith was a special friend to Tifa, since that's stated in Tifa's character profile in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania. Yet, there's no indication that Tifa, or any member of Avalanche other than Cloud, is able to see Aerith during the movie. There's only indication in the movie that some of the children see Aerith as well as Cloud.

As a result, Zack's appearance to Cloud can not mean that the consciousness of Zack also lives on inside of Cloud like Aerith's does. It may be for the same reason, but other explanations are possible. In fact, whether or not Cloud is able to see Zack for the same reason he sees Aerith is left purely up to speculation, since none of the creators have ever commented on how or why Cloud sees Zack.
..................
If Nojima thinks that Cloud's being baptized at the end of the movie, then he considers Cloud as having been re-born. If Cloud has been re-born and has just re-emerged from the Lifestream, then he is somewhat like a child at that moment. The most likely explanation for some children in the movie being able to see Aerith is that they've recently emerged from the Lifestream and are therefore closer to it. Since Cloud has just been "resurrected", he has just emerged from the Lifestream, too - and that's exactly when Cloud is able to see Zack.

Therefore, there are other ways to explain Cloud's ability to see Zack in Advent Children/Complete. It doesn't have to mean that Zack lives in Cloud's consciousness in the same way that Aerith does. Until the creators explain how Cloud sees Zack, then it's purely up to speculation.

Thank goodness that cleared it all up. Aerith and Cloud's bond is still special. And Zack's is different because......

Because....uh. Let me read that again.

 

[Eerie]

Mmh.. I think my brain rot. Nice.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Wait, that essay still doesn't explain why he was able to see Zack prior to dying in ACC, during the Sephiroth fight. Unless they're attempting to use some sort of Time Hax well-he-dies-later-therefore-prior-he-can-see-everyone-in-the-lifestream bizzaro logic.

 

[Als52]

Living girl > dead girl

I can't help but wonder if Maiden had been a poorly written and contradictory short story by Doug Walsh (one of the writers at BradyGames) and it's only publication was a single BradyGames Strategy Guide released only to North America about a half decade ago, if people would still try to cram its "Canon" down your throat or not.

At least for me the most telling thing about the Maiden is that Square-Enix isn't interested in exporting, marketing, or even rewriting it, which says a lot.

 

[Tennyo]

Wait, that essay still doesn't explain why he was able to see Zack prior to dying in ACC, during the Sephiroth fight. Unless they're attempting to use some sort of Time Hax well-he-dies-later-therefore-prior-he-can-see-everyone-in-the-lifestream bizzaro logic.

It means that Zack is just different, he just is, because if he were the same then that would downplay the theory that Aerith really does LITERALLY live inside Cloud and comes back often for spirit smex. You see, a beefed up Zack role in ACC is a threat, that's why it magically is just different for no reason.

 

[Ryushikaze]

The essay also forgets to explain how Aerith living in the hearts of all her friends is to be distinguished from the magicalness that is living on in Cloud.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Just wanted to say I have a lengthy -- a tl;dr within a tl;dr! Like the U.S., only without the democracy or republic elements -- response to Mako and everybody else typed up and sitting on my computer -- to which the Internet is not currently connected due to a random service outage in my area. And I sure as shit ain't typing all that up again on my cell phone.

So just be patient during this trying time while we await Time Warner's able-bodied repair persons to restore my service.

 

[Vendel]

We can't wait for your pinker essay tres.

 

[Zee]

Where do you find these essays? I mean obviously somewhere on CxA but the forum or the main site?

...Why do I seem to know the least about what's going on in my own fandom?

 

[Vendel]

Where do you find these essays?

In my heart.

 

[Zee]

oic

So it's like truthiness.

 

[Isabella]

FFS! That essay doesn't even pretend to follow any sort of logic. Why do they do this to themselves? Enjoying the cuteness that CxA had while she lived is cool, but why take it to such crazy ass lengths that you embarass yourselves?

 

[Zee]

Because Bella, THERE AIN'T GO GETTIN' OFF THIS TRAIN WE'RE ON.

/barretragefists

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

We can't wait for your pinker essay tres.

You damn well will.

Oh, and I see all the dates as official.
And in succession.

Meant to reply to this earlier.

They can't all be official since Cloud and Aerith, then Cloud and Tifa, and then Cloud and Yuffie, and then Cloud and Barret can't all be the 100th couple at Event Square. XD

Besides, Cloud and Barret's dialogue on the gondola rules out him having gone with Aerith, Tifa or Yuffie. Unless he went with them after, of course.

I watched the Barret date on YouTube, and Cloud's attitude is like "Gaia, another one? Why can't I go to sleep already?! .......[sigh] Might as well get it over with quickly."

I don't see that at all. You guys for real? He doesn't say anything more than "What's wrong?" and "What, just the two of us?" until after the fireworks.

Actually, what you face in DC is a copy of Hojo's consciousness, not the real deal.

Not so in the very beginning!

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate, please?

How does CC contradict FF7 where Z/A is concerned?

It doesn't where they're concerned.

How does Crisis Core contradict canon? Does not compute.

Crisis Core is what does not compute. A better question might be "How does Crisis Core not contradict canon?"

I'll just quote myself from my FAQ, which I can never shamelessly plug enough:

—Four different versions of the Nibelheim reactor fight (one each in FFVII, BC, CC, and LO)

...

—The original game referred to the JENOVA Project as Professor Gast's project, with Hojo even implying that Gast was still there when Lucrecia was injected with JENOVA cells. The Ultimania Omega for the original game also says this outright (pg. 210). However, CC, its Ultimania, and DC all leave the impression that Gast resigned from his position well before that point, with Hojo in charge of all the research and experimentation that led to Sephiroth's birth

...

—Why was Hojo unable to confirm the existence of the WEAPONs until visiting
the Northern Crater when there's one in the cave in Banora, a place where
Shin-Ra had been mining?

...

—The Ultimania Omega for FFVII says that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers (pg. 31), while she hasn't started doing that yet when she meets him in CC. Granted, this is a discrepancy between CC and a guidebook published by Square Enix rather than a discrepancy between CC and the original game itself, but it still demonstrates a lack of attention to detail on someone's part

...

—Though this is yet another guide discrepancy, this time it actually does
contradict the original game, as well as the FFVII Ultimania Omega. In the
Crisis Core Complete Guide, the "S-Cells" entry of the Keyword Collection (pg.
286) refers to Cloud as a failed Sephiroth copy -- despite the original game
and the FFVII Ultimania Omega (pg. 213) making it clear that he was not

...

—Another guidebook discrepancy is that Zack's year of birth is listed as 1984
in the Crisis Core Ultimania (pg. 12), but is listed as 1985 in the FFVII 10th
Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 82). This was likely just a typo in the latter
-- as Zack is supposed to have been 23 at the time of his death in the year
0007 according to the same book's profile (pg. 85) -- but all of these
inconsistencies begin to add up and discourage one's confidence in the
application of quality assurance

...

—Yet another guidebook inconsistency: The Crisis Core Complete Guide claims in its Keyword Collection that Aerith's father, Gast Faremis, deserted Shin-Ra after realizing that JENOVA wasn't an Ancient -- and that Ifalna "escaped with him" to Icicle Inn. The Ultimania Omega for FFVII, however, states twice that Ifalna was a local at Icicle Inn, whom Gast met after moving there to conduct new research (pp. 59 and 210).

...

—In the original, Cloud and Zack planned an escape from the Shinra Mansion at feeding time. In CC, Zack apparently broke the glass of his containment tube during a bad dream, and then used the opportunity to escape

...

—In the original game, Zack dresses Cloud in a SOLDIER 1st Class uniform after they leave Nibelheim; here, they start to leave Nibelheim, then go back to the mansion before they reach the exit; back at the mansion, Zack redresses Cloud

...

—In the original game, Cloud is left to die by the soldiers who kill Zack.
They assume he'll expire on his own. In CC, they don't see him at all because
Zack had hidden him

...

—Tseng, Reno and Rude now have a rather extensive past with Cloud, courtesy of LO, CC and BC, yet none of them mention it in the original game, despite their guilt over turning him over for experimentation in BC and then pursuing him after he and Zack escaped

...

—Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth all have public fan clubs in CC, yet Genesis only disappears from the public eye a few years before FFVII begins. Despite this, the G Reports from DC tell us that "all records of this man's [Genesis] existence have been deleted," and that the only memory of him is the letter "G" ... like people aren't going to remember. It even goes so far as to say that "there is so little information on 'G' that his existence might be a fabrication." Completely nonsensical

...

—Zack's uniform is purple in BC and the original game (he was already 1st Class by then and had the Buster Sword); it was changed to black in LO and CC, along with all 1st Class uniforms, while Zack's purple outfit was a 2nd Class uniform unique to his use

...

—The Turks' uniforms were all blue in the original game, but now they've been
changed to black in all pre-original appearances. The black wasn't that weird
in AC since it came after, and also wasn't a plothole as a result. Its
presence in CC, BC and LO, however, is

...

—In BC, Tseng and the Turk who find Zack and Cloud shortly after their escape from Nibelheim have a lengthy conversation on the phone, during which the Turk tells him that they have escaped and that Zack is one of them. This prompts Tseng to tell the Turk to return to headquarters (essentially meaning he was letting them go for the time being); in CC, the Turk in this situation (Cissnei) just phones Tseng, says that the targets have eluded capture and then hangs up, deciding alone to let them go. Furthermore, in BC, the Turk who finds them has an actual fight with Zack, but in CC, Cissnei doesn't

Not really. It retcons, but it doesn't completely contradict and then end up suddenly no longer listed as part of the FFVII Compilation.

If complete contradictions did cause titles to be struck from the Compilation, CC -- and several others -- would no longer be listed. XD

Her denial of his death isn't her being shocked that he's in the Lifestream. She just states she doesn't know what happened to him, which is again explained by her being in denial by his death. Her suddenly being shocked that he's in the Lifestream when she feels him die, makes no sense.

And still being in denial of his death years after the fact when she felt him die isn't in the same vein?

You said it yourself: She was in denial of his death. She convinced herself that he wasn't dead, and had probably met someone else. If she's in denial, why isn't she going to be surprised when she learns that he really is dead?

If anything, she'd feel dread at being correct in her previous sensing of his demise.

Again: denial. You're excusing one behavior on the basis of denial but not another very similar behavior.

That makes no sense.

It never says he's a copy. It says he uploaded his consciousness and spirit into the Network.

He called it his "neurodata." Besides, if he'd transferred his actual soul into the network, how is it that the party still fights him afterward?

Hojo says that copying his data was a safety measure. How does one take a precautionary measure after they've already done what required the measure?

Or look at Lucrecia. She put her fragments into the network, but she was still alive afterward -- because it was a copy of her, not the original. And Hojo used the same procedure to do what he did -- notice in the opening that the screen on the mako cannon says "start fragment program."

Not only that, but his spirit is green like spirit energy as well as ethereal.

Are you talking about the hologram of Hojo that appears beside Weiss? It's bluish in tone, not green. The room itself is tinted green, but the hologram is blue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65rak7zxzig#t=19m14s

It's not just a digital copy. A digital copy would not be able to literally make itself a spirit.

Why not? I could say a human being couldn't copy their neurodata or their spirit, but that may not apply in FFVII. XD

For that matter, look at all the wacky shit Lucrecia's neurodata does in the latter parts of the game. Or you could explain the hologram by virtue of the fact that Hojo's mind was in the facility and we already know from the multiplayer storyline that the facility is equipped to project holograms (see: Usher) anywhere.

I'm not saying that the copy of Hojo wasn't alive, because it's thoughts/memories, and, thus, it is. It is a spirit. That's what was being detected by Yuffie's little scanner thing in the game's opening, after all.

But it's not the original Hojo.

He never intended or wanted to offer himself up to Sephiroth at all. Why would he do that if his ambition was to become one with Omega?

That's what I said. Then he died.

In fact, he says he injected himself with Jenova cells because of "science" and because he wasn't content just experimenting on others. That's not why he did it according to the Compilation.

So you're suggesting that Hojo's only goal at that point was to become Omega? He wasn't interested in seeing his experiment with Seph reach its ultimate conclusion?

Despite dialogue like this in FFVII?:

Hojo: ...nonsense? Oh, this? Ha, ha, ha... Sephiroth seems to be counting on the energy. So I'm going to lend him a hand.

Cloud: Why!? Why do that!?

Hojo: Quit asking me why, you moron. Hmm... actually, you might be cut out to be a scientist. Energy level is at...... 83%. It's taking too long. My son is
in need of power and help. ...That's the only reason.

Unless you're telling me that was all one big, pointless red herring -- with Hojo even having an unnecessary lie for why he was doing what he was doing, and his actual goal with the cannon left forever unclear -- then I think Hojo was just fine with the idea of offering up his spirit energy to his son.

So Zack is a liar? I'd like proof of that please.

No, Zack is a flirt. And I think that's rather self-evident.

Yes it does. I don't remember Sephiroth laughing while dying at all ...

Again: telepathic battle. No voice acting.

In Maiden's it did.

How is the entire consciousness of the Lifestream being awakened equivalent to Aerith throwing the entire thing at the surface? For that matter, we still see long ribbons trailing off into the distance in the moment where Holy beats Meteor.

The visual presentation alone proves that the entire Lifestream was not there.

Probably not since again, they aren't even referenced anywhere, and aren't written by the same staff. If they contradict, then hell no.

They don't contradict anything from what I recall. You said that's good enough for the stuff in the VIII, X and X-2 Ultimanias, right?

The creators can contradict as much as they want, cause its their story to cut, paste, and retool to their pleasure. However, when an outside writer does it, and then their subsequent work is completely ignored and purposefully rendered out of step with the continuity..the message is clear. It's not canon. Reconciling it into continuity can't be done. The original source material of the creators makes Maiden a mess.

And yet, Maiden fits quite well, actually. Better than BC, CC or DC.

It also works with all three of them just fine.

Doesn't matter if they don't have voice acting. It shows Sephiroth bloody, broken, and with a look of shock and pain. Nothing even remotely close to a laugh. It's wrong. All that shit is stuff that renders Maiden not in step with the vision of the creators.

Ah, but vision and events are two different things. You can have creators with different visions playing in the same sandbox and yet the products of their labors still be compatible.

Look at "Beast Wars" and the original "Transformers" for a fine example. Then look at "Beast Machines" -- the supposed "sequel" to "Beast Wars" -- as a fine example of how not to do this shit.

Dan DiDio instructed the writers of "Beast Machines" that "Beast Wars" had given too much consideration to continuity, and that they were to disregard it. As well, he outright discouraged them from watching "Transformers" or "Beast Wars."

And "Beast Machines" is complete garbage, intensely reviled by the "Transformers" fanbase. Go figure.

Besides, I wouldn't even say that all of FFVII's developers had the same vision. The vision for Advent Children involved Yuffie being able to run up buildings and leap dozens of feet -- all while throwing a large, metal shuriken the distance of several city blocks.

Then we got On the Way to a Smile: Case of Yuffie, where she couldn't even knock down a door or lift an ordinary kid her own age. Clearly, different visions were at work there, but in this case, events aren't reconcilable.

The tl;dr version is: If we can fanwank an explanation for AVALANCHE's superhuman prowess in AC/C (prolonged, intense use of materia and/or the fall into the center of the planet in the final battles of the original game), then we can do so with this.

Doesn't matter about Yuffie being able knock over a door. Case of Yuffie was written by Nojima, not some guy named Benny.

And AC/C was directed by Nomura.

It's referenced in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania and as part of the Compilation. Benny's isn't. And while those inconsistencies are off, they aren't blatant continuity contradictions such as when Zack met Aerith, and why she fell in love with him.

There couldn't have been more than one thing about Zack that caught her eye?

She may have learned, but again. Was she a witness? According to the source material, no, probably not.

In fairness, the game itself would be the source material. And, again, saying that Tifa was the only witness to an event that took place in a literal sea of consciousnesses? That's a contradiction in terms.

You can't pick and choose how to read the text, man.

You kind of are, though. You're not even attempting to factor in the very nature of the Lifestream's composition.

If it only meant living, it'd have said living.

I think you give them way too much credit. XD Look at the guidebook contradictions I posted above, or at the 10th Anniversary Ultimania claiming that Last Order was from Tseng's perspective in blatant contradiction of the text on the report in front of him during that story.

How she found out the truth about Cloud could be thanks to her getting the memories from Zack and figuring out what the Jenova cells did in the end.

So you'll allow that she got the info from Zack, but not from witnessing it -- or even from gleaning it from Tifa while Tifa witnessed it? Even though the same mechanics would apply?

Tifa and Cloud were in the Lifestream, but the events of that segment were Tifa being in Cloud's heart and mind. You think there was an audience witnessing the inner most secrets of Cloud's heart?

I think he was in the Lifestream.

It certainly contradicts the compilation.

But not the good parts.

For clarification, DC -- though contradicting the original game -- falls under "the good parts." CC and BC can go fuck themselves. And take Case of Yuffie and Case of Nanaki with them.

Blatant contradictions done by an outside author who's story ends up being ignored and not even listed as part of the Compilation, make it no longer canon.

Again, I was talking about the Kaitai Shinsho stories.