Why was Hojo unable to confirm the existence of the WEAPONs until visiting
the Northern Crater when there's one in the cave in Banora, a place where
Shin-Ra had been mining?
You
do realize Shinra did not fully explore, construct or utilize the Banora mako mine. So it's not inconceivable to believe there were portions of the caves that were unexplored, and the WEAPON could have been included.
The Ultimania Omega for FFVII says that Aerith met Zack while selling flowers (pg. 31), while she hasn't started doing that yet when she meets him in CC. Granted, this is a discrepancy between CC and a guidebook published by Square Enix rather than a discrepancy between CC and the original game itself, but it still demonstrates a lack of attention to detail on someone's part
They retconned it to fully flesh out and tell a better story regarding a side character they probably had no intention of ever utilizing or expanding upon. Yeah, there are gonna be retcons in that regard, when expanding upon points that previously had very little significance.
Though this is yet another guide discrepancy, this time it actually does
contradict the original game, as well as the FFVII Ultimania Omega. In the
Crisis Core Complete Guide, the "S-Cells" entry of the Keyword Collection (pg.
286) refers to Cloud as a failed Sephiroth copy -- despite the original game
and the FFVII Ultimania Omega (pg. 213) making it clear that he was not
Cloud became a failed copy in the sense that thanks to Zack's intervention, he didn't end up remaining in a comatose vegetable that ended up sharing the same fate as the other black sheep of the project. However, he was a success because in the end, he did react to Jenova while Zack did not. Perhaps the CC Complete Guide refers to that fact that he escaped the fate all the other copies suffered.
Another guidebook discrepancy is that Zack's year of birth is listed as 1984
in the Crisis Core Ultimania (pg. 12), but is listed as 1985 in the FFVII 10th
Anniversary Ultimania (pg. 82). This was likely just a typo in the latter
-- as Zack is supposed to have been 23 at the time of his death in the year
0007 according to the same book's profile (pg. 85) -- but all of these
inconsistencies begin to add up and discourage one's confidence in the
application of quality assurance
You really shouldn't include guidebook typos between differing books. That's not nearly of the same level as them getting the fact wrong that there was no real conceivable time Hojo could have ever seen Vincent EVER limit break into Chaos before their final fight atop the Sister Ray.
In the original, Cloud and Zack planned an escape from the Shinra Mansion at feeding time. In CC, Zack apparently broke the glass of his containment tube during a bad dream, and then used the opportunity to escape
CC never refutes or denies that this happened. Merely, they never showed it.
Look at the respective entry on the matter here in the CC Complete Guide.
Neither CC, nor the Compilation of FFVII takes the stance that just because you don't see the FFVII event in the actual spinoff, it didn't happen. Several moments of FFVII are omitted in CC, yet are acknowledged by CC's extent materials.
In the original game, Zack dresses Cloud in a SOLDIER 1st Class uniform after they leave Nibelheim; here, they start to leave Nibelheim, then go back to the mansion before they reach the exit; back at the mansion, Zack redresses Cloud
....You know, some of these nitpicks are terribly anal.
—Tseng, Reno and Rude now have a rather extensive past with Cloud, courtesy of LO, CC and BC, yet none of them mention it in the original game, despite their guilt over turning him over for experimentation in BC and then pursuing him after he and Zack escaped
That was acknowledged in Case of Shinra, and yeah that's odd. But how the heck does that reflect as an inconsistency with CC? That's not exclusive to CC at all.
—Genesis, Angeal and Sephiroth all have public fan clubs in CC, yet Genesis only disappears from the public eye a few years before FFVII begins. Despite this, the G Reports from DC tell us that "all records of this man's [Genesis] existence have been deleted," and that the only memory of him is the letter "G" ... like people aren't going to remember. It even goes so far as to say that "there is so little information on 'G' that his existence might be a fabrication." Completely nonsensical
Well Hojo's last Sephiroth fanclub letter implies that he wants fanclub members to meet with him so that he can experiment on them to help them find ways to get Sephiroth back or something. And it's not hard at all to imagine that Shinra went through a mass information suppression campaign to ensure G is no longer remembered. Do you not remember what they did regarding Nibelheim, Kalm, and other moments of company shame? Honestly. The fanclub members being killed, threatened, or watched is not hard at all. Look at the CC Complete Guide on Shinra's firing policy. That sums it all up.
Zack's uniform is purple in BC and the original game (he was already 1st Class by then and had the Buster Sword); it was changed to black in LO and CC, along with all 1st Class uniforms, while Zack's purple outfit was a 2nd Class uniform unique to his use
Yeah, Nomura already talked about how they wanted to make the uniforms black in the first place but graphical problems in terms of color and textures made them opt for purple. They wanted the uniforms to be black, and now thats what they are.
If complete contradictions did cause titles to be struck from the Compilation, CC -- and several others -- would no longer be listed. XD
But they aren't. And contradictions that go against the actual vision of the creators done by an outside author are egregious.
And still being in denial of his death years after the fact when she felt him die isn't in the same vein?
You said it yourself: She was in denial of his death. She convinced herself that he wasn't dead, and had probably met someone else. If she's in denial, why isn't she going to be surprised when she learns that he really is dead?
The denial stems from the knowledge she felt him die and knew it. Her seeing him dead and there with her should not instill surprise, since its a confirmation of her worst fear. That would be dreaded confirmation. She didn't want to believe it. She didn't delude herself. We're never told that at all.
Again: denial. You're excusing one behavior on the basis of denial but not another very similar behavior.
That makes no sense.
There's a difference between denial, and delusion. I don't think Aerith was so deluded that she literally forgot she felt Zack die. How would you forget that, if she was feeling the deaths of others, and able to speak and sense their spirits in the lifestream? That makes no sense at all.
He called it his "neurodata." Besides, if he'd transferred his actual soul into the network, how is it that the party still fights him afterward?
Hojo says that copying his data was a safety measure. How does one take a precautionary measure after they've already done what required the measure?
Spirit energy comes from "neurodata." It is built from your thoughts, memories, and experiences. Hojo's had been translated and put into the network.
The party already defeated him. By the time Vincent confronts Hojo on the Sister Ray in DC's intro, the fight with Heletic Hojo had concluded. He was barely alive. The precationary measure was to ensure that when he died, he wouldn't lose his individuality after death.
Or look at Lucrecia. She put her fragments into the network, but she was still alive afterward -- because it was a copy of her, not the original. And Hojo used the same procedure to do what he did -- notice in the opening that the screen on the mako cannon says "start fragment program."
Yes, we have it stated by her fragments that she is a copy. A reflection of her thoughts and feelings at the time of recording. Hojo's spirit is not just a copy or reflection. It's his actual thinking, plotting soul who is interacting tangibly with the living wrong. They aren't the same thing.
Are you talking about the hologram of Hojo that appears beside Weiss? It's bluish in tone, not green. The room itself is tinted green, but the hologram is blue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65rak7zxzig#t=19m14s
Well lifestream apparently can be blue as shown in ACC so yeah. Same difference.
Why not? I could say a human being couldn't copy their neurodata or their spirit, but that may not apply in FFVII. XD
For that matter, look at all the wacky shit Lucrecia's neurodata does in the latter parts of the game. Or you could explain the hologram by virtue of the fact that Hojo's mind was in the facility and we already know from the multiplayer storyline that the facility is equipped to project holograms (see: Usher) anywhere.
Lucrecia's neural data doesn't act sentient through the game, as Hojo's does. Lucrecia's data merely causes Shelke to either act through her wishes, or encourage Vincent as programmed to do.
I didn't know that about Usher though. I thought Usher was just a thought broadcasted illusion the poor mook saw, and no one else did.
I'm not saying that the copy of Hojo wasn't alive, because it's thoughts/memories, and, thus, it is. It is a spirit. That's what was being detected by Yuffie's little scanner thing in the game's opening, after all.
But it's not the original Hojo.
For all intents and purposes, it is. If all of Hojo's memories, thoughts, and "inner being" are being uploaded into the actual network, what is left. Again, where does it say there's a copy. Hojo is not the same as Lucrecia because Lucrecia is alive, and Hojo was dead/dying. The entirety of his being was uploaded, while Lucrecia only uploaded a copy of her feelings and stuff for Vincent to aide him. Not her entire soul.
So you're suggesting that Hojo's
only goal at that point was to become Omega? He wasn't interested in seeing his experiment with Seph reach its ultimate conclusion?
Unless you're telling me that was all one big, pointless red herring -- with Hojo even having an unnecessary lie for why he was doing what he was doing, and his actual goal with the cannon left forever unclear -- then I think Hojo was just fine with the idea of offering up his spirit energy to his son.
No, Hojo wanted to help Sephiroth by firing off the cannon. That is true. But I'm referring to the Jenova cell injection. Him doing so was to strengthen himself with Omega as the ultimate self promoting experiment to make himself stronger and a god-like being. Just like his son.
No, Zack is a flirt. And I think that's rather self-evident.
That's true, but when does he lie to flirt? That's ridiculous. It was a stupid assertion that was contradicted again by the Compilation. And I find it hard to believe Zack would lie about what he did to make Aerith like him more. He's never done that.
Again: telepathic battle. No voice acting.
Dude, laughter isn't just an auditory response. If he were laughing, he'd have made the facial expression of smiling. He did the exact opposite.
How is the entire consciousness of the Lifestream being awakened equivalent to Aerith throwing the entire thing at the surface? For that matter, we still see long ribbons trailing off into the distance in the moment where Holy beats Meteor.
The visual presentation alone proves that the entire Lifestream was not there.
That's not all it says. "The entire Planet's conscious was awakened...With their strong wills combined together, they managed to control the enormous energy of the Planet."
That's a pretty strong allusion to somehow the Planet's consciousness (i.e. The Lifestream) was awakened and rallied by Aerith. It refers to the total Lifestream, not just a portion.
Ah, but vision and events are two different things. You can have creators with different visions playing in the same sandbox and yet the products of their labors still be compatible.
Look at "Beast Wars" and the original "Transformers" for a fine example. Then look at "Beast Machines" -- the supposed "sequel" to "Beast Wars" -- as a fine example of how not to do this shit.
Dan DiDio instructed the writers of "Beast Machines" that "Beast Wars" had given too much consideration to continuity, and that they were to disregard it. As well, he outright discouraged them from watching "Transformers" or "Beast Wars."
And "Beast Machines" is complete garbage, intensely reviled by the "Transformers" fanbase. Go figure.
Besides, I wouldn't even say that all of FFVII's developers had the same vision. The vision for Advent Children involved Yuffie being able to run up buildings and leap dozens of feet -- all while throwing a large, metal shuriken the distance of several city blocks.
Then we got On the Way to a Smile: Case of Yuffie, where she couldn't even knock down a door or lift an ordinary kid her own age. Clearly, different visions were at work there, but in this case, events aren't reconcilable.
The tl;dr version is: If we can fanwank an explanation for AVALANCHE's superhuman prowess in AC/C (prolonged, intense use of materia and/or the fall into the center of the planet in the final battles of the original game), then we can do so with this.
Problem is, Benny ain't anywhere close to the scenario writing team of FFVII, so what his vision is, amounts to squat in terms of importance. His input isn't equivalent to the creators as evident of his lack of consistency (or rather him not being privy) with the events of FFVII's continuity, and the head honchos excluding the very work he did. He's outside of their sphere of story writing. So putting his vision on the same level as the creators is erroneous. He's not part of it.
They don't contradict anything from what I recall. You said that's good enough for the stuff in the VIII, X and X-2 Ultimanias, right?
Since FFVIII, and X don't have an ongoing compilation and are in essence "done", we could. There isn't a list of what encompasses the "Series of FFVIII" or "Series of FFX". When that list of what encompassed the Compilation of FFVII was done twice, and excluded Benny's story, that was the final nail in the coffin.
And yet, Maiden fits quite well, actually. Better than BC, CC or DC.
It also works with all three of them just fine.
Dude, no it doesn't. If Benny were one of the actual creators, you could make the case it would to a degree. But not only is he not, but he gets the shit
wrong. It's fanfiction. When an outside author can't get a handle on the very elements of the universe they're writing about, that's double foul. Hell, his statement of when Aerith met Zack, was completely without reference or foundation. He pulled it out of his ass. Same goes for him saying she fell in love with his smile. He apparently thought he could take such a liberty with the characters, and in the end, he was wrong.
Ah, but vision and events are two different things. You can have creators with different visions playing in the same sandbox and yet the products of their labors still be compatible.
Look at "Beast Wars" and the original "Transformers" for a fine example. Then look at "Beast Machines" -- the supposed "sequel" to "Beast Wars" -- as a fine example of how not to do this shit.
Dan DiDio instructed the writers of "Beast Machines" that "Beast Wars" had given too much consideration to continuity, and that they were to disregard it. As well, he outright discouraged them from watching "Transformers" or "Beast Wars."
And "Beast Machines" is complete garbage, intensely reviled by the "Transformers" fanbase. Go figure.
I'm..not quite sure how that's relevant to Maiden being out of step with FFVII in its depiction of the spiritual duel. Maiden did it wrong. The creators never, ever referred to its depiction again. Why Benny would make a point to completely refute the original FFVII's depiction writing an extent story he's not a writer of, is beyond me. But again, his vision is not only ignored, but thrown to the side purposefully.
And AC/C was directed by Nomura.
Nojima
wrote AC.
There couldn't have been more than one thing about Zack that caught her eye?
I'm sure there was, but the one thing that caught her eye about Zack was his eyes. That's out of her own mouth. At least the Aerith written by the SE development team.
In fairness, the game itself would be the source material. And, again, saying that Tifa was the only witness to an event that took place in a literal sea of consciousnesses? That's a contradiction in terms.
No, the creators themselves are the source material. They're the actual source of its story.
It took place in the Lifestream, but we're inside Cloud's heart during the Lifestream event. Cloud didn't literally diffuse and open himself up within the lifestream. That would mean he died. Somehow, Cloud and Tifa's consciousnesses melded, allowing Tifa to go inside Cloud's soul. That is why at first she hears all the voices in the lifestream but when she finally enters Cloud, she only hears him. And when the event ends, they hear the voices of the lifestream again.
I think you give them way too much credit. XD Look at the guidebook contradictions I posted above, or at the 10th Anniversary Ultimania claiming that Last Order was from Tseng's perspective in blatant contradiction of the text on the report in front of him during that story.
Editorial typos in a book are not on the same level as actual contradictions in the game depictions themselves for one. There are contradictions, but some of the ones you mentioned are rather tiny. CC's
retcons are not on the same level as some of the sheer continuity tangles DC threw at us regarding its plot. There a difference between changing the past and literally making the past and present no longer in sync with each other.
So you'll allow that she got the info from Zack, but not from witnessing it -- or even from gleaning it from Tifa while Tifa witnessed it? Even though the same mechanics would apply?
She could've gleaned it after it happened from Cloud and Tifa after the event as well. But if the creators say she wasn't an actual live witness, which makes sense, seeing as how Tifa was inside Cloud's very heart/soul, then yeah. That's how it is. It makes sense. Why would Tifa cease hearing all the souls of the lifestream once she enters Cloud's heart, if she were not somehow being shielded from them?
You kind of are, though. You're not even attempting to factor in the very nature of the Lifestream's composition.
Well going by the creator comments, and the depiction of the scene itself...it leads credence to the fact that the moment was a private moment between Cloud and Tifa. The billions of spirits in the lifestream were either deathly silent, watching intently as two wankers suddenly dived into their spirit goo, or they were excluded. I think the latter is more likely.
I think he was in the Lifestream.
Well he was
But do you think his heart/spirit suddenly opened up and spilled forth into the ethereal mass? If it did, how did it not suddenly get carried away and lost amongst all the other consciousness? That would be bizarre.
But not the good parts.
For clarification, DC -- though contradicting the original game -- falls under "the good parts." CC and BC can go fuck themselves. And take Case of Yuffie and Case of Nanaki with them.
Screw you! Go play with your arthritic Vincent all you want!
You just insulted Case of Yuffie and Nanaki. The house of cards has fallen.
Again, I was talking about the Kaitai Shinsho stories.
Well in the different cases of FFVIII and X, we can accept them, until they either get contradicted or ignored by the creators.
