LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Dashell]

OH wow thanks

Also Hito:
SOILENT GREEN IS PEOPLE

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Did that Memorial thing mention all the dates by chance or just the one?

FFG said she isn't sure of what it included in the text proper because she doesn't know Japanese, but she said it includes screenshots from all but Barret's date. I provided her the text for the HA and LA versions of the Highwind scene.

As for the date, I tend to consider Aerith's closest to canon. It's the only one to ever be treated as "This is what happened," even if that was only in the short stories Benny Matsuyama wrote for the Kaitai Shinsho.

Honestly, I think I've gone back to thinking that those stories -- and Maiden Who Travels the Planet -- are canon. They don't actually seem to contradict anything and haven't been explicitly thrown out like Last Order.

And given that Last Order was in the 10th AU, only to then be thrown out, inclusion there isn't the standard for what is canon.

For that matter, it's not like we challenge the canonicity of any of the extra stories in FFVIII, X or X-2's Ultimanias.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Maiden has the key problem of noting that all the Cetra are well and gone where they are easily rousable in COLW. That alone means the two are at odds with what are major cosmological implications.

For that reason, I can't really seem them as both valid.
And the only reason Maiden was held not to count wasn't actually LTD related, but related to DoC and other matters. The 'waitaseconds' just started piling up.

Oh, and I see all the dates as official.
And in succession.
Incidentally, I DON'T think Aerith's date is the most referenced or spoken of. The date with Tifa seems to be the go-to image in the UO in both Cloud and Tifa's profile timeline (der) with Aerith's in only her own timeline- notwithstanding elsewhere in the book.
Now, as I said, I don't really think it matters- Like I said, I hold they all happen, hence Cloud's rather fatalistic outlook when Barret finally appears, I just think it's an interesting if meaningless thing. Anyone feel like counting?

 

[Loxetta]

I watched the Barret date on YouTube, and Cloud's attitude is like "Gaia, another one? Why can't I go to sleep already?! .......[sigh] Might as well get it over with quickly."

 

[Vendel]

Honestly, I think I've gone back to thinking that those stories -- and Maiden Who Travels the Planet -- are canon. They don't actually seem to contradict anything and haven't been explicitly thrown out like Last Order.

Really now?

[FFVII] Tifa becomes the only witness to Cloud’s blurry memory, and she also plays an important role in regaining his true self.

Opps one more contradiction.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Honestly, I think I've gone back to thinking that those stories -- and Maiden Who Travels the Planet -- are canon. They don't actually seem to contradict anything and haven't been explicitly thrown out like Last Order

...Are you trolling?

How about it getting the age Aerith met Zack completely wrong? She was not 17 when she first met and fell in love with him. And if anything, CC showed us it was his eyes not his smile that drew her to him. The entire dynamic between Aerith and Zack is rendered OOC thanks to CC.

Or what about Aerith somehow being shocked Zack died when she felt him die in CC's ending?

Or the fact Hojo's spirit energy is in the Lifestream when he uploaded his consciousness into the Shinra Network after being defeated in FFVII? Not only that, but his motivation for injecting himself with Jenova cells is revealed not to have been to sacrifice himself to Sephiroth, or to just make himself a sample for destruction/lulz..but to make himself stronger for Omega.

Or the fact it implies Zack somehow taught Cloud Omnislash?

Or that it completely changes how the spiritual battle between Cloud and Sephiroth is showcased?

Or what about the fact the novella states that Aerith rallied the entire lifestream of the planet when the 10th Anniversary Ultimania states it was only a portion of it?

It's lack of inclusion ANYWHERE in ANY book speaks volumes. It's never referenced or referred to once in continuity, compared to On the Way to a Smile. Hell, its not even included on the list of what includes the Compilation of FFVII in the 20th Anniversary FF Story Ultimania OR the 10th Anniversary Ultimania...OR the CC Complete Guide's list.

And given that Last Order was in the 10th AU, only to then be thrown out, inclusion there isn't the standard for what is canon.

Maiden misses both marks cause not only is it not included, its completely contradicted in regards to its facts and placement within continuity. Last Order made it into the 10th AU because it was done by the creator staff, unlike Maiden. It's wrong and not even done by the original team.

For that matter, it's not like we challenge the canonicity of any of the extra stories in FFVIII, X or X-2's Ultimanias.

They aren't radically contradicted by the source material, or completely thrown out in subsequent works or creator guidebooks.

 

[Vendel]

Hummm. interesting read mako. But let us run that through a pink filter.

Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack.

It's canon.

 

[Dashell]

lol I find it really hard to take you seriously with that horse in your avatar XD

 

[Vendel]

lol I find it really hard to take you seriously with that horse in your avatar XD

But my horse is amazing!

 

[Tennyo]

SOILENT GREEN IS PEOPLE

It took me years of people saying this before I even realized they were talking about a movie.

And I've still never seen it.

But my horse is amazing!

Give it a lick! It tastes just like raisins!

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Much love Vendel for your amazing horse. And Tennyo for even getting the reference!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Maiden has the key problem of noting that all the Cetra are well and gone where they are easily rousable in COLW. That alone means the two are at odds with what are major cosmological implications.

To tell you the truth, I don't remember Maiden saying that. This is the closest thing that comes to mind:

"My mother died and she was also a Cetra... It's been fifteen years. In that time, maybe I'll disappear and become one with the Planet too."

But then it also says:

"As long as the Cetra has the will power they can exist in the Lifestream without letting their conscious be scattered."

Which fits with the cosmology in OtWtaS: CotL:

The woman was an Ancient. Which explained how she was able to maintain her individuality even within the Lifestream. If she so wished she could become part of the planet at any time ...

For that matter, the Cetra consciousnesses she found in OtWtaS: CotL were basically diffused anyway:

Having lost the core of their emotions, the surface animosity disappeared. The woman had found a solution, however more and more spirits steeped in spite appeared, and it was too much for her to bear. She rushed through the Lifestream in search of other souls to help her. Ancients, on the verge of diffusing. These fragments of consciousness accepted her undertaking.

If we're talking about fragments of consciousnesses, that fits with the vague line in Maiden well enough.

...Are you trolling?

How about it getting the age Aerith met Zack completely wrong? She was not 17 when she first met and fell in love with him. And if anything, CC showed us it was his eyes not his smile that drew her to him. The entire dynamic between Aerith and Zack is rendered OOC thanks to CC.

CC renders FFVII OOC.

Or what about Aerith somehow being shocked Zack died when she felt him die in CC's ending?

That's something to take up with the original game as well.

Or the fact Hojo's spirit energy is in the Lifestream when he uploaded his consciousness into the Shinra Network after being defeated in FFVII?

Actually, what you face in DC is a copy of Hojo's consciousness, not the real deal.

Not only that, but his motivation for injecting himself with Jenova cells is revealed not to have been to sacrifice himself to Sephiroth, or to just make himself a sample for destruction/lulz..but to make himself stronger for Omega.

Maiden doesn't imply that he intended to become a sacrifice to Sephiroth, though. Once he's in the Lifestream, he simply says that Sephiroth is calling for more spirit energy and he then offers himself up.

That's really not a contradiction at all. He wasn't planning to get killed.

Or the fact it implies Zack somehow taught Cloud Omnislash?

Zack being Zack.

Or that it completely changes how the spiritual battle between Cloud and Sephiroth is showcased?

It doesn't, really.

Or what about the fact the novella states that Aerith rallied the entire lifestream of the planet when the 10th Anniversary Ultimania states it was only a portion of it?

Obviously the whole Lifestream didn't come out in any telling.

It's lack of inclusion ANYWHERE in ANY book speaks volumes. It's never referenced or referred to once in continuity, compared to On the Way to a Smile. Hell, its not even included on the list of what includes the Compilation of FFVII in the 20th Anniversary FF Story Ultimania OR the 10th Anniversary Ultimania...OR the CC Complete Guide's list.

No u.

They aren't radically contradicted by the source material, or completely thrown out in subsequent works or creator guidebooks.

So we can keep the Kaitai Shinsho stories?


Honestly, only some of that was a troll. Yeah, it does contradict some things and it's likely not canon, but, really, a lot of the canon titles contradict each other too, so that's hardly the measure of canon anyway. XD

My responses concerning Hojo's consciousness, the Cetra's consciousnesses, Aerith's knowledge of Zack's death, the "portion" of the Lifestream, and Cloud and Sephiroth's spiritual battle were serious. Yeah, it says Seph laughed as he disappeared, but we're talking about a telepathic conflict in a game that didn't have voice acting.

Seph's face right before he disappeared may not have lent itself to laughter, but that doesn't mean he wasn't laughing in the following seconds as he vanished.

Maiden fits with the original game quite well, and also AC/C and On the Way to a Smile. You can look at the original FFVII, Maiden, all the OtWtaS stories except for Case of Nanaki and Case of Yuffie (because of Yuffie's inability to lift a kid her own age or knock down a door in these stories), and AC/C -- and you'll have a coherent, consistent narrative right there.

The only thing you guys brought up that could be a problem is the CC Ultimania's comment that Vendel posted about Tifa being the only witness to Cloud's blurry memory. That's kind of a weird line to begin with, though, and I don't think any of us ever doubted that Aerith learned the reality of what had happened with Cloud.

In AC/C, I really don't think she would have still been thinking that the guy she'd known on Disc 1 of the original game is the real Cloud.

For that matter, the same concept of her being able to glean the memories of people who enter the Lifestream is in play in both stories:

"...Father realized that the Planet was more important than science."

Aerith found out when Tifa and Cloud's memories merged with the Lifestream when they fell. She also found out that it was Hojo who shot her father when he tried to stop him from taking her as a newborn sample.

The woman drew closer to the souls that had just entered the Lifestream, spirits filled with hate, and tried to heal them. Beneath the surface of enmity were hidden memories. Memories from their lives as normal people.

Really, why wouldn't Aerith have been able to see what was going on? The idea that she couldn't sounds like the contradiction to me.

I can only conclude that the line in the CC Ultimania was talking about Tifa as the only living witness. Heck, with the Lifestream being made of memories and consciousnesses, the idea that Tifa's was the only other consciousness in the vicinity at the time would be a contradiction in terms to begin with.

So, yeah, long story short: Maiden's probably not canon, but it doesn't contradict the original game or the other titles that fit with it.

And if a lack of contradictions were the mark for canon, we could count the stories from the Kaitai Shinsho!

 

[HalfMoon-Smile]

o my goodness...

okay, i admit that i haven't checked TLS.net for a long time i'm ashame to admit, but what a vast situation goin' on here.was.

the LTD closed with define conclusion*horray! 500pages arguments are now concluded! with an answer that already laid there since the first page-amusing it is*and here another round of bull-fighting.

oh, this is so not going anywhere...or is not?

popcorn?

 

[Winter]

CC renders FFVII OOC.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, haha. If we're gonna begin to nitpick Zack and Aerith's relationship, I'd say CC was a vastly different take on their story anyways.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, haha. If we're gonna begin to nitpick Zack and Aerith's relationship, I'd say CC was a vastly different take on their story anyways.

CC was a vastly different take on reality.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Idunno, CC confirmed a damn lot of things I'd suspected for awhile about Z/A, actually.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

I hate you, Takashi Miike.

...that is all. :'[

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Idunno, CC confirmed a damn lot of things I'd suspected for awhile about Z/A, actually.

Maybe it's because I haven't played CC, but I never got why it suddenly makes ZxA canon. We knew Zack and Aerith dated before CC ever existed, she says so herself in FF7, this is not something new we're being told. No doubt CC clarified stuff and showed their relationship is detail, but still, Zack and Aerith were an item, we know, we've known for a while.

Not like it matters though, we all know in the end Cloud hooks up with Terra and Reno Rude Johnny Zack someone catches Tifa on the rebound.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Maybe it's because I haven't played CC, but I never got why it suddenly makes ZxA canon. We knew Zack and Aerith dated before CC ever existed, she says so herself in FF7, this is not something new we're being told. No doubt CC clarified stuff and showed their relationship is detail, but still, Zack and Aerith were an item, we know, we've known for a while.

Not like it matters though, we all know in the end Cloud hooks up with Terra and Reno Rude Johnny Zack someone catches Tifa on the rebound.

I think Ryu was saying that he suspected Cloud was an even bigger mirror of Zack for Aerith than we'd known.

But, yeah, I too think CC doesn't really matter all that much. In a lot of respects.

 

[Tennyo]

Actually, what you face in DC is a copy of Hojo's consciousness, not the real deal.

Not so in the very beginning!

 

[Isabella]

How does CC contradict FF7 where Z/A is concerned?

 

[Eerie]

Maybe it's because I haven't played CC, but I never got why it suddenly makes ZxA canon. We knew Zack and Aerith dated before CC ever existed, she says so herself in FF7, this is not something new we're being told. No doubt CC clarified stuff and showed their relationship is detail, but still, Zack and Aerith were an item, we know, we've known for a while.

I think that what CC did is to make ZxA tangible, real. With just FF7, it's something we *know*. But the game actually showed them, promoted them as a couple, made players feel for them, something that FF7 never did.

It also brought the question "who does Aerith loves the most, in the end?"

I haven't played either, but from my perspective, it's something like this; the feeling of a true pairing was only revealed with CC, not so much during FF7. To me, who isn't really in fandom, suddenly it looked that the number of ZxA shippers went through the roof with that and the ending of AC/C.

 

[Tennyo]

Much love Vendel for your amazing horse. And Tennyo for even getting the reference!

I was in to watching that video before it was popular.

 

[Makoeyes987]

CC renders FFVII OOC.

Not really. It retcons, but it doesn't completely contradict and then end up suddenly no longer listed as part of the FFVII Compilation.

That's something to take up with the original game as well.

Her denial of his death isn't her being shocked that he's in the Lifestream. She just states she doesn't know what happened to him, which is again explained by her being in denial by his death. Her suddenly being shocked that he's in the Lifestream when she feels him die, makes no sense. If anything, she'd feel dread at being correct in her previous sensing of his demise. Why would she be surprised at him being dead like her, when before she felt him die? Uh, no.

Actually, what you face in DC is a copy of Hojo's consciousness, not the real deal.

Three years ago, while I was still running about looking for Sephiroth,
I took it upon myself to distribute my data-- my
mind, my knowledge, my inner being, across the worldwide network.
And even though my body had died, and the world had been left in ruin,
I survived in a virtual reality.

It never says he's a copy. It says he uploaded his consciousness and spirit into the Network. Not only that, but his spirit is green like spirit energy as well as ethereal. It's not just a digital copy. A digital copy would not be able to literally make itself a spirit. A digital copy wouldn't be able to project itself as literal spirit energy or reform its self as an image. It's more than just data.

No where does Hojo say he merely copied himself or he is a copy, he refers to himself as the real deal.

Maiden doesn't imply that he intended to become a sacrifice to Sephiroth, though. Once he's in the Lifestream, he simply says that Sephiroth is calling for more spirit energy and he then offers himself up.

That's really not a contradiction at all. He wasn't planning to get killed.

He never intended or wanted to offer himself up to Sephiroth at all. Why would he do that if his ambition was to become one with Omega? In fact, he says he injected himself with Jenova cells because of "science" and because he wasn't content just experimenting on others. That's not why he did it according to the Compilation.

Zack being Zack.

So Zack is a liar? I'd like proof of that please.

It doesn't, really.

Yes it does. I don't remember Sephiroth laughing while dying at all, and neither does any of the FFVII storyline playbacks in the FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, or timelines for Cloud or Sephiroth. It goes by the actual FFVII depiction. All while omitting Maiden's very existence.

Obviously the whole Lifestream didn't come out in any telling. [

In Maiden's it did.

The cry of the last Cetra shook the countless consciousnesses that she had awakened during her journey. The entire Planet's conscious was awakened. Of course, among them was also the consciousness of those that were suspended for their atonements. With their strong wills combined together, they managed to control the enormous energy of the Planet.

Refuted once more by the actual source materials.

So we can keep the Kaitai Shinsho stories?

Probably not since again, they aren't even referenced anywhere, and aren't written by the same staff. If they contradict, then hell no.

Honestly, only some of that was a troll. Yeah, it does contradict some things and it's likely not canon, but, really, a lot of the canon titles contradict each other too, so that's hardly the measure of canon anyway. XD

The creators can contradict as much as they want, cause its their story to cut, paste, and retool to their pleasure. However, when an outside writer does it, and then their subsequent work is completely ignored and purposefully rendered out of step with the continuity..the message is clear. It's not canon. Reconciling it into continuity can't be done. The original source material of the creators makes Maiden a mess.

My responses concerning Hojo's consciousness, the Cetra's consciousnesses, Aerith's knowledge of Zack's death, the "portion" of the Lifestream, and Cloud and Sephiroth's spiritual battle were serious. Yeah, it says Seph laughed as he disappeared, but we're talking about a telepathic conflict in a game that didn't have voice acting.

Doesn't matter if they don't have voice acting. It shows Sephiroth bloody, broken, and with a look of shock and pain. Nothing even remotely close to a laugh. It's wrong. All that shit is stuff that renders Maiden not in step with the vision of the creators.

Seph's face right before he disappeared may not have lent itself to laughter, but that doesn't mean he wasn't laughing in the following seconds as he vanished.

....What seconds? You see his face until he disappears. There's nothing even close to a laugh. It doesn't make sense.

Maiden fits with the original game quite well, and also AC/C and On the Way to a Smile. You can look at the original FFVII, Maiden, all the OtWtaS stories except for Case of Nanaki and Case of Yuffie (because of Yuffie's inability to lift a kid her own age or knock down a door in these stories), and AC/C -- and you'll have a coherent, consistent narrative right there.

Might fit with the original game, but the Compilation isn't just the original. It doesn't fit at all, and its rendered moot.

Doesn't matter about Yuffie being able knock over a door. Case of Yuffie was written by Nojima, not some guy named Benny. It's referenced in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania and as part of the Compilation. Benny's isn't. And while those inconsistencies are off, they aren't blatant continuity contradictions such as when Zack met Aerith, and why she fell in love with him.

The only thing you guys brought up that could be a problem is the CC Ultimania's comment that Vendel posted about Tifa being the only witness to Cloud's blurry memory. That's kind of a weird line to begin with, though, and I don't think any of us ever doubted that Aerith learned the reality of what had happened with Cloud.

She may have learned, but again. Was she a witness? According to the source material, no, probably not.

Really, why wouldn't Aerith have been able to see what was going on? The idea that she couldn't sounds like the contradiction to me.

I can only conclude that the line in the CC Ultimania was talking about Tifa as the only living witness. Heck, with the Lifestream being made of memories and consciousnesses, the idea that Tifa's was the only other consciousness in the vicinity at the time would be a contradiction in terms to begin with.

You can't pick and choose how to read the text, man. If it only meant living, it'd have said living. How she found out the truth about Cloud could be thanks to her getting the memories from Zack and figuring out what the Jenova cells did in the end. Tifa and Cloud were in the Lifestream, but the events of that segment were Tifa being in Cloud's heart and mind. You think there was an audience witnessing the inner most secrets of Cloud's heart?

So, yeah, long story short: Maiden's probably not canon, but it doesn't contradict the original game or the other titles that fit with it.

It certainly contradicts the compilation.

And if a lack of contradictions were the mark for canon, we could count the stories from the Kaitai Shinsho!

Blatant contradictions done by an outside author who's story ends up being ignored and not even listed as part of the Compilation, make it no longer canon.

Last Order was at least given mention of being outside of the Comp. Maiden wasn't even included in the Comp from the get go.

 

[Tennyo]

I'm trying to decide if there is an actual debate going on here or if it is just trolls trolling each other.