LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Dashell]

But do Cloud and Terra desire each other's friendship? Did they communicate their friendship nonverbally, by braiding each other's hair?

Let's not give them ideas

Though TBH I don't see anyone yet saying they desired each other's friendship unless I'm missing something...

 

[Tennyo]

Wait, this is suddenly a Clerra conversation?

 

[DrakeClawfang]

Wait, this is suddenly a Clerra conversation?

I'll make it one. Seriously, think about it. Aerith is dead, so *someone* has to step in to fulfil Cloud's dream of banging a flower-loving hybrid chick with a glowing cosmic keystone and a red and pink dress....

 

[Isabella]

Quex, that post of mine says it means one's beloved, which would be the person on the receiving end of love. So I'm not sure of the point you're making.

 

[Dashell]

Didn't you say once that you thought koibito meant that two people would have to talk and establish their relationship first?

 

[Loxetta]

The negative lifestream was created from those who died of Geostigma. Not just those who had Jenova cells. People with Jenova cells had died plenty of times before AC and a negative lifestream never was created. The Negative Lifestream and black water was only created post FFVII.

Oh. Okay. But isn't Geostigma the infection of Jenova cells in an otherwise 'pure' body? It still wouldn't be a stretch for all of Jenova's traces, both already in the Green Lifestream and new to it, be drawn to the Negative Lifestream when it is created. Speculative, but not far fetched.

That's not Emerald Weapon. Emerald Weapon came out of the Northern Crater. You can see it in the cutscene, along with Ruby. That's a whole new weapon. My explanation is much better, anyways

stfu

The only answer is that its a new Weapon, and its for an unknown purpose. Just like Jade WEAPON awoke for another. And I doubt the planet can just move weapons around like that XD Its just new.

I wasn't aware it was a different WEAPON. Where was this said?

Hojo takes it back on the Sister Ray, before their confrontation though.

Still, in CC's timeline he's still considered a failure, so it would make sense for the guidebooks to that game say so. But then what the hell do I know?

Don't make me hurt you, too!

no u

The debates over, tbh

Thought so.

 

[Dashell]

Uhm if I crossed a line I didn't mean to... my point was that a lot of people seemed to think that koibito meant a relationship between Cloud and Tifa, but when CoLW came out, the word didn't mean a relationship anymore so someone somewhere was saying koibito meant a relationship ...

 

[Isabella]

Didn't you say once that you thought koibito meant that two people would have to talk and establish their relationship first?

I might have. I know I said CxA couldn't have been in a relationship because they never had a chance to establish one, so that particular use of koibito couldn't be correct. I'm aware that koibito often implies a relationship, but its literal definition is one who is loved. We often heard arguments that Tifa was the one doing the loving, not the one who is loved.

 

[Dashell]

I see... there seems to have been way more confusion over that one word... but I was confused too so...

We often heard arguments that Tifa was the one doing the loving, not the one who is loved.

Well that's just plain ridonkulous.

 

[Vendel]

I know I said CxA couldn't have been in a relationship because they never had a chance to establish one, so that particular use of koibito couldn't be correct.

I could direct you to those that disagree.

 

[Isabella]

Yeah, because saying "I'm ... We're here for you" = we're committed to each other for life

 

[Makoeyes987]

Oh. Okay. But isn't Geostigma the infection of Jenova cells in an otherwise 'pure' body? It still wouldn't be a stretch for all of Jenova's traces, both already in the Green Lifestream and new to it, be drawn to the Negative Lifestream when it is created. Speculative, but not far fetched.

If Zack were in the Negative Lifestream, he'd be in state of torment and despair, as illustrated by the souls gripped in hatred and despair in Lifestream White. Zack wouldn't be able to have manifested to Cloud because he would've been in the clutches of Sephiroth. So its unlikely. Geostigma is the combination of Jenova cells AND Sephiroth's malignant will from the lifestream. It's him making the Jenova cells hurt people and be a disease.

I wasn't aware it was a different WEAPON. Where was this said?

It has to be. The WEAPONs were created there at the Northern Crater to keep an eye on Jenova. So why would Emerald be in a different location, and then be shown springing from the Northern Crater?

Still, in CC's timeline he's still considered a failure, so it would make sense for the guidebooks to that game say so. But then what the hell do I know?

Not really. Because again, Cloud reacted favorably to the mako and Jenova cells. He became a zombie, just like he was supposed to. Zack was the one who failed. He stayed himself and broke free

 

[Loxetta]

If Zack were in the Negative Lifestream, he'd be in state of torment and despair, as illustrated by the souls gripped in hatred and despair in Lifestream White. Zack wouldn't be able to have manifested to Cloud because he would've been in the clutches of Sephiroth.

He very well might have been. But we've seen how hatred and despair goes down with Zack in the past, and coupled with his will being relatively strong, it's unfair to say for certain that Seph could have kept him from a Peanut Gallery appearance since his spirit energy was already in the neighborhood and Seph is already distracted by the Blond Pincushion.

So its unlikely. Geostigma is the combination of Jenova cells AND Sephiroth's malignant will from the lifestream. It's him making the Jenova cells hurt people and be a disease.

Yes, but you can't have Geostigma without Jenova cells, which was carried in the Lifestream during Meteorfall and the Black Water afterwords. Geostigma only manifests when the carrier is in a state of dispair or doubt, but there must be Jenova cells there for that to occur, which means that it's the cells that Sephiroth is really controlling, and why he can separate Geostigma victims from the regular Lifestream. There's nothing to say he couldn't do that with those that were already part of the Lifestream and had Jenova cells.

It has to be. The WEAPONs were created there at the Northern Crater to keep an eye on Jenova. So why would Emerald be in a different location, and then be shown springing from the Northern Crater?

Then why didn't that WEAPON also wake up when Sephiroth got the Black Materia?

Not really. Because again, Cloud reacted favorably to the mako and Jenova cells. He became a zombie, just like he was supposed to. Zack was the one who failed. He stayed himself and broke free

That doesn't make sense. Hojo wrote Cloud off as a failure, that's why he didn't get a number tattoo. If Cloud's zombification was what Hojo was looking for, why would he mark him a failure?

 

[Dashell]

Because Cloud fails dude

 

[Loxetta]

Well, aside from the obvious.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Geostigma requires Sephiroth's will inside the lifestream as well as Jenova cells, so it really can't start up til after his physical form dies and his body goes into the lifestream.

Koibito would be an indication of Cloud and Tifa's relationship not just because she's the koibito, but because she'd be the Koibito of a man she lives and raises children with, who she has a future together with, who she is an important woman to, who she has feelings for and who has feelings for her, etc. etc. etc.

Cloud doesn't have a number because Hojo never got around to numbering him before he and Zack escaped- Hojo later assumes he was a failure because of the lack of number.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He very well might have been. But we've seen how hatred and despair goes down with Zack in the past, and coupled with his will being relatively strong, it's unfair to say for certain that Seph could have kept him from a Peanut Gallery appearance since his spirit energy was already in the neighborhood and Seph is already distracted by the Blond Pincushion.

Sephiroth's will is second to none. I seriously doubt Zack's will power would be enough to subvert Sephiroth's and free him from the Negative Lifestream if he were apart of it. That makes no sense. Zack's not on the level of subverting Sephiroth's will in death to appear. Not even Aerith can do that.

Yes, but you can't have Geostigma without Jenova cells, which was carried in the Lifestream during Meteorfall and the Black Water afterwords. Geostigma only manifests when the carrier is in a state of dispair or doubt, but there must be Jenova cells there for that to occur, which means that it's the cells that Sephiroth is really controlling, and why he can separate Geostigma victims from the regular Lifestream. There's nothing to say he couldn't do that with those that were already part of the Lifestream and had Jenova cells.

That's true, you can't. But Jenova cells alone don't cause Geostigma. Sephiroth's will has to be active while the cells are still in the living host's body in order for Geostigma to manifest. Why would Zack get a physical disease of the living while dead and his spirit is already separated from the cellular matter of Jenova? You don't carry cells or have a body once you're dead and in the Lifestream.

Then why didn't that WEAPON also wake up when Sephiroth got the Black Materia?

Probably cause it had a different purpose.

That doesn't make sense. Hojo wrote Cloud off as a failure, that's why he didn't get a number tattoo. If Cloud's zombification was what Hojo was looking for, why would he mark him a failure?

Maybe you're not getting what it takes for a Sephiroth Copy to be considered a success in the project. Here, I'll explain with this quote from the FFVII Ultimania Omega on the subject:

*Successful work, failure work*
As for the mentally and physically strong, carrying Jenova's cells inside
their bodies will not cause them to receive Jenova's influence, and they will
not become a puppet of Jenova like the Sephiroth Clones, but will instead
become a SOLDIER possessing strength far beyond that of a normal human being.

In Zack's case, he had already successfully received the SOLDIER procedure
previously, and undergoing experimentation as a Sephiroth Clone did not make
him into a puppet of Jenova; he retained his normal human behavior to the
end. However, unlike Zack, the residents of Nibelheim were perfect in the role
of Sephiroth Clones for Hojo's experiment. As for Cloud, like the other
residents of Nibelheim -- [who all became perfect] Sephiroth Clones -- being
unable to withstand the SOLDIER treatments, he could not retain himself and
his mind completely collapsed. When reunited with Tifa in Midgar, though, the
coherence of being normal would return to him and he would gain a personality
that essentially let him be his own person, even if confusion would come of
it.

The whole goal of the project was for Cloud and the other subjects to become zombies to the Jenova cells, so that they would reflect Jenova's instincts and follow the urge for Reunion. If Cloud becomes a vegetable, and loses himself, then yes. He was a success. Also, here's what Hojo says:

Cloud: Hojo! Stop right there!!

Hojo: Oh…the failure.

Cloud: At least remember my name! It's Cloud!

Hojo: Every time I see you, I... It pains me that I had so little scientific
sense... I evaluated you as a failed project. But, you are the only one that
succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone. Heh, heh, heh...... I'm even beginning to hate
myself.

See? Cloud was a success. The only way I can imagine Cloud would be a "failure" according to the Complete Guide, would be that he didn't get to fully realize his fate as a success, and was rescued by Zack and allowed to get something close to a personality aside from a vegetable. But in the end, Cloud did what a Sephiroth Copy was supposed to do. Heed the call for Reunion.

 

[Makoeyes987]

And on a more topic related note..

When you have an admin named "Dupe Account" closing threads on the parallels between FFVII and FFXIII because of "a certain issue on how this topic started," after just two pages of civil discussion, you know the forum's given up the ghost.

After nearly two weeks of not a single Clerri responding to any points or posts on the debate section of the forum...that's what the Clerith mod does? Really? El. Oh. El. Is Clerith canon really that dead...? Really?

Guess that answers that...

 

[Vendel]

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Wasn't there an LTD going on at one point?

The debates over, tbh

This.

Then why didn't that WEAPON also wake up when Sephiroth got the Black Materia?

THIS.

I've been the 'Congratulations, you're our X audience member' twice in the same day before.

You'd think after the second time, though, Cloud would be like "Fuck this shit. I'm not getting slapped again."

They most certainly ARE all OFFICIAL. Their very existence lends them to being just that.

You know we were discussing canon based on the way Ryu had used "official," right? o.O

I'm not Mako, but I can say that Hojo was alive during Meteor fall. Vincent finds him--body still warm, and consciousness recently uploaded--on top of the tower.

Hojo said he'd copied his consciousnesses as a fail-safe -- and a fail-safe is typically a measure you take before you cross the Rubicon, not after. So he'd copied his mind prior to injecting himself with JENOVA's cells.

He likely had the program set to activate at a certain time in the event that he died.

This is during the evacuation of Midgar while Cloud and the others are fighting Sephiroth.

No, it was the night that Diamond attacked Midgar (updated to that night by Case of Shin-Ra, where it should have been all along). Vince and Yuffie were with Cloud and the others fighting Seph in the crater (which the 10th Anniversary Ultimania had been saying was the case for a while; though it also claimed that Vince and Yuffie somehow participated in evacuations after fighting Seph, which was retarded).

Maiden blatantly contradicts that, in that Aerith meets Hojo well BEFORE this event. So even if DoC Hojo is a copy, it in no way negates the fact that Aerith could NOT have met Hojo in Maiden as it claims she did.

But, again, there's no reason to believe Hojo on the Sister Ray was alive -- the program was likely set to execute at a certain time if Hojo wasn't around to prevent it. And, just to reiterate, the opening of DC has now been moved to the night Diamond attacked Midgar, so there's no issue there even if Hojo had been alive on the Sister Ray.

But the image of his body laying there for a week before he did anything is rather amusing, I must say.

Crisis Core can't contradict canon--as it IS canon.

Come on, that's more semantic quibbling when the topic was again obvious. It was clear that we were discussing whether CC contradicts other canon titles.

You just love the sound of your own typing, don't ya?

That's indicated by me quoting something previously written rather than typing it all out again? XD

Not if they are conscious re-tellings done by the CREATORS, then they are--as mentioned above, retcons and not contradictions.

My meaning was obvious here too. I was saying that if consistency was the standard for inclusion in canon, then CC and a lot of other things would fall short.

CCs very existence wipes Maiden from the slate as the 'newer' telling from the creative staff does CONTRADICT what was previously written by an outside source--even if, at the time, the source was considered working on behalf of the team and originally that story was accepted. Future updates to compilation (CC specifically) wipe that out. Maiden is therefore not canon. Period.

Yeah, nobody's discussing whether Maiden is canon. Whether Maiden is capable of being consistent with other titles isn't related to whether it's canon.

And I think that I get the idea of how "canon" is defined as well as anyone here. XD I've written at-length on the topic.

WHAT? Where in the hell do you get that Yuffie's "Life signs detected" was picking up a fucking computer program?

Thoughts/consciousnesses/memories=Lifestream. Hell, Lucrecia's fragments talked to Vincent and even took physical form briefly to help Shelke and Vincent out.

Hojo was warm and heart beating minutes before Vincent took the stairs (see bolded and underlined part within your own quote)--and that alone--for repetition sake--negates Aerith's meeting him in Lifestream soup at the time purposed in Maiden.

Yuffie said they had already checked the Sister Ray prior to that.

I see no signs that Hojo was anything but cold -- and I find it especially odd that while taking the understanding that his body had been laying there for a week without doing anything, you think he was still alive and just then getting around to taking care of things. That is a more simple explanation than the fail-safe program he'd set up just happening to execute at that time?

But NOT a damn liar. He wouldn't tell Aerith he taught Cloud a finishing move that he didn't ...

Making a tongue-in-cheek statement while joking doesn't make one a liar.

... --so once again, CC renders Maiden incompatible with canon--and as CC IS CANON, Maiden is rejected. Again.

And you need to calm down.

Is there a reason you sound pissed in this entire post?

Also, again: No one's arguing that Maiden is canon.

Again: CGI game, graphics are the visual indicators--even cubed and poorly done. They would have SHOWN Sephiroth laughing if he had been.

Again, we're talking about whether consistency can be fanwanked out here, like with the superhuman agility the team demonstrates in AC/C.

Asserting that to be canon ...

Except no one is.

No, it doesn't. It totally chafes like sandpaper on ass when meshed with Crisis Core. The ages and behaviors of Aerith and Zack are completely off, not to mention the whole Hojo thing.

I checked Maiden again and it doesn't say that Aerith met Zack when she was 17. It just says that when she was 17 (which would have been her age the last time she saw him) his carefree smile had attracted her to him.

No, let's look at FFVII within FFVII compilation. Outside, "Oh, look how it can get all screwy" is irrelevant.

I was offering an illustration of a point I was making to facilitate better understanding of the point.

Nojima wrote both... so, I'm not sure where you are going with that one.

I highly doubt Nojima layed out the battle sequences in Advent Children. That was probably all Nomura.

No, it's not. Because the events of piecing Cloud back together occur WITHIN Cloud--not within the lifestream.

Is that the precedent for Aerith being able to literally live inside Cloud? You're saying Tifa's already done it?

We see the white silence where ALL THE OTHER VOICES are kept out...

Wait, what?

If you're looking at Maiden--Aerith ASKS Zack to verify the real Cloud and for HIM to help Cloud because she COULD NOT, she couldn't even get Cloud to hear her... so, no, she gleaned nothing from Tifa and Cloud's encounter, it was a 2-party show.

The story said she gleaned the truth about her father from them when they fell in, so that particular mechanic is definitely at work, and she did, indeed, gain some stuff from Tifa and Cloud during that time.

You don't have to like them. But they are canon. Whereas Maiden is not. Sorry, sweetie.

I really think you thought you'd come to a different debate. XD

You really shouldn't include guidebook typos between differing books. That's not nearly of the same level as them getting the fact wrong that there was no real conceivable time Hojo could have ever seen Vincent EVER limit break into Chaos before their final fight atop the Sister Ray.

I agree that it's not on the same level, but I'm thorough.

CC never refutes or denies that this happened. Merely, they never showed it.

The circumstances are still different. In one, Cloud and Zack planned their escape and successfully executed the plan.

In the other, a stroke of luck allowed them to get out.

....You know, some of these nitpicks are terribly anal.

And not being so anal gives us story quality equivalent to FFXIII exploration.

Don't be part of the problem, Mako. Don't be. Just don't.

That was acknowledged in Case of Shinra, and yeah that's odd.

It might have been vaguely acknowledged when Tseng says that Cloud's just a kid, but it really wasn't addressed even there.

But how the heck does that reflect as an inconsistency with CC? That's not exclusive to CC at all.

Didn't say it was exclusive to CC, but CC's included.

Well Hojo's last Sephiroth fanclub letter implies that he wants fanclub members to meet with him so that he can experiment on them to help them find ways to get Sephiroth back or something. And it's not hard at all to imagine that Shinra went through a mass information suppression campaign to ensure G is no longer remembered. Do you not remember what they did regarding Nibelheim, Kalm, and other moments of company shame? Honestly. The fanclub members being killed, threatened, or watched is not hard at all. Look at the CC Complete Guide on Shinra's firing policy. That sums it all up.

You're drastically missing my point on this one, Mako. The point is that Genesis was a celebrity -- the common person on the street knew about him.

Yeah, Sephiroth was the Fergie of SOLDIER, but Genesis was still the will.i.am.

Yeah, Nomura already talked about how they wanted to make the uniforms black in the first place but graphical problems in terms of color and textures made them opt for purple. They wanted the uniforms to be black, and now thats what they are.

And as such it's less egregious an inconsistency. But it's still an inconsistency.

There's a difference between denial, and delusion. I don't think Aerith was so deluded that she literally forgot she felt Zack die. How would you forget that, if she was feeling the deaths of others, and able to speak and sense their spirits in the lifestream? That makes no sense at all.

Eh, denial's denial to me. I don't think she forgot that she'd had that feeling, but she seemed to have effectively convinced herself in the original game that he was probably alright.

The party already defeated him. By the time Vincent confronts Hojo on the Sister Ray in DC's intro, the fight with Heletic Hojo had concluded. He was barely alive. The precationary measure was to ensure that when he died, he wouldn't lose his individuality after death.

What makes more sense? That Hojo copied his data prior to injecting himself with JENOVA's cells -- being unable to guess what would actually happen -- in an effort to preserve himself should things go badly, or that he copied the data afterward?

Yes, we have it stated by her fragments that she is a copy. A reflection of her thoughts and feelings at the time of recording. Hojo's spirit is not just a copy or reflection. It's his actual thinking, plotting soul who is interacting tangibly with the living wrong. They aren't the same thing.

Lucrecia's fragments interacted with the physical world too, though, taking form and assisting Shelke and Vincent. Lucrecia herself was still in that cave, though.

Well lifestream apparently can be blue as shown in ACC so yeah. Same difference.

It's green throughout the rest of DC, though, so I'm going with "It's a hologram" on this one.

I didn't know that about Usher though. I thought Usher was just a thought broadcasted illusion the poor mook saw, and no one else did.

Maybe you're right about that one. Difficult to say. At any rate, look at how the form of Hojo constantly flickers and how there's constant "gaps" running from his feet to the top of his head, and then starting back at his feet again.

That image is a computerized projection.

For all intents and purposes, it is. If all of Hojo's memories, thoughts, and "inner being" are being uploaded into the actual network, what is left. Again, where does it say there's a copy. Hojo is not the same as Lucrecia because Lucrecia is alive, and Hojo was dead/dying. The entirety of his being was uploaded, while Lucrecia only uploaded a copy of her feelings and stuff for Vincent to aide him. Not her entire soul.

I guess it really depends on when you believe he uploaded the fragments -- before he injected himself with JENOVA or after.

No, Hojo wanted to help Sephiroth by firing off the cannon. That is true. But I'm referring to the Jenova cell injection. Him doing so was to strengthen himself with Omega as the ultimate self promoting experiment to make himself stronger and a god-like being. Just like his son.

Agreed. All I'm saying, though, is that in the event of his death, he'd have no qualms with tossing his spirit energy to Sephiroth as a means of helping his experiment progress.

That's true, but when does he lie to flirt? That's ridiculous. It was a stupid assertion that was contradicted again by the Compilation. And I find it hard to believe Zack would lie about what he did to make Aerith like him more. He's never done that.

I don't think it would be a lie so much as it would be not the truth. Meaning, he wouldn't have expected her to take it seriously.

But, again, this is all fanwank.

Dude, laughter isn't just an auditory response. If he were laughing, he'd have made the facial expression of smiling. He did the exact opposite.

So his telepathic image would have to reflect a telepathic sound? I don't think that makes sense.

Anyway, as with the above, this is also all just fanwank.

That's a pretty strong allusion to somehow the Planet's consciousness (i.e. The Lifestream) was awakened and rallied by Aerith. It refers to the total Lifestream, not just a portion.

Yes, but the total Lifestream wasn't in Midgar. Just a portion.

Problem is, Benny ain't anywhere close to the scenario writing team of FFVII, so what his vision is, amounts to squat in terms of importance. His input isn't equivalent to the creators as evident of his lack of consistency (or rather him not being privy) with the events of FFVII's continuity, and the head honchos excluding the very work he did. He's outside of their sphere of story writing. So putting his vision on the same level as the creators is erroneous. He's not part of it.

No one's saying he is. As I keep repeating, the purpose of this debate is to see if consistency can be fanwanked -- and I think it can be quite easily. Not that DC was at odds with Maiden anyway in my opinion, but we're probably not going to come to an agreement on that one.

No, the creators themselves are the source material. They're the actual source of its story.

I didn't want to have to do this to, you, Mako, but:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/source+materials

It took place in the Lifestream, but we're inside Cloud's heart during the Lifestream event. Cloud didn't literally diffuse and open himself up within the lifestream.

Honestly, I'd never thought before now that the Lifestream Sequence took place anywhere but in the Lifestream. I always assumed all of that stuff we see was more along the lines of Cloud and Tifa's thoughts reacting with the Lifestream around them to form images.

Though your and Fairheartstrife's take makes sense as well.

A bigger question would be what is it doing in Banora's underground in the first place, if all the WEAPONs including Emerald shoot from the Northern Crater in FF7 after Cloud flips his shit and gives up the Black Materia? Of course, it's possible that maybe the Planet moves them from time to time to keep them from being discovered, or moves them to where they might be needed in the future as a precaution. It could have been absent at the time Shinra was mining in Banora.

As Mako said, I don't think it was supposed to be Emerald. It sure looks like him, but the Ultimania Omega said that the planet placed all the WEAPONs into hibernation in the Northern Crater after JENOVA was taken care of by the Ancients.

Hojo calls him a failure though, even during the Northern Crater/Black Materia event when he asks to see Cloud's number tattoo. Perhaps it was referring Cloud being a precieved failure? It wasn't until FF7 that Cloud proved to be a successful clone.

Maybe, but during CC, he would have appeared successful anyway. As for Hojo, though he later says that Cloud was actually the only success, he's wrong about that too, since the black cloaked people had gotten to the Northern Crater and been killed without Hojo's knowledge.

This feels like a strike against the UO because -- how did Gast discover Jenova wasn't an Ancient if he hadn't met Ifalna, and what reason would Hojo have to seek them out if he didn't know Gast had left with a real Ancient?

Well, even the original game had it that Gast went wandering through Cosmo Canyon, distraught over discovering that JENOVA was not an Ancient. And if he isn't supposed to have met Ifalna until he got to Icicle Inn, he must have figured it out himself somehow.

But, yeah, as far as canon is concerned, I guess one would have to draw the conclusion that the UO has been overwritten on this count.

As for Hojo, I think he would have sought Gast either way. Shin-Ra keeps close tabs on those who retire, after all.

Though the issue itself can still be explained away as Gast and Ifalna splitting up after leaving Shinra and planning to rendevous at Icicle Inn at a later date.

Nah, it specifically called her a local at Icicle Inn and said that Gast met her there while he was conducting new, independent research.

I can't find the original FF7 scene of this right now, so I'm going on memory. The scratched messages in the tubes to eachother would indicate that Cloud had still been conscious at the time the feeding time escape was planned, which is not the case when they actually do manage escape. The feeding time may have been a failed attempt from before -- but again, I can't remember fully what the original FF7 scene entailed, so I'm not sure.

The original scene depicted the lab assistant coming to feed them and then getting knocked out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxI1S3sg9es

He even says "Hey! This is your food."

Where the hell would Zack get a SOLDIER uniform after leaving Nibelheim?

Maybe he found it in the mansion and then took it with them? XD

In any case, Cloud was still in his grunt uniform when they passed the gate at Nibelheim in the original game, but was then in the SOLDIER uniform in the next shot.

Not a major detail, but an inconsistency nonetheless -- and one easily avoided if anyone cared to. I know I'm more anal about these things than all of the rest of you, but to me there's no excuse for the developers of a story not to be able to keep details straight that fans easily can.

Where does it say that? All that's shown in the CC ending is Zack depositing Cloud by some rocks, and then next we see him he's crawling in the mud to Zack.

It isn't said anywhere, but the point of hiding Cloud behind rocks (Zack specifically requests that the driver stop somewhere behind a rock formation in ACC) is presumably there for that reason. The original game didn't have Zack hide Cloud.

Reno: *yells across the sector* YO TSENG! I FOUND THAT GUY WE EVADED ORDERS TO TRY TO SAVE! WANT ME TO INVITE HIM FOR PIZZA?

XD

Still, you'd expect some kind of reaction out of them when they see him again.

This one is dumb as hell, I entirely agree.

Victory is mine!

Also artistic license. Although, Turk!Vincent from DC is wearing a suit that looks kind of a blue-gray instead of black.

True enough. What the hell's up with that?

BC sucks. Full stop.

Yeah, I shouldn't even bother counting its individually wrapped failings.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also, fuck you all for posting so much that it took me creating a mega teal dear to catch up.

 

[Loxetta]

EDIT: Fuck you too Tres I'll get to you next.

Sephiroth's will is second to none. I seriously doubt Zack's will power would be enough to subvert Sephiroth's and free him from the Negative Lifestream if he were apart of it. That makes no sense. Zack's not on the level of subverting Sephiroth's will in death to appear. Not even Aerith can do that.

Read --

Zack: in the area
Cloud: receptive
Sephiroth: LOLing at Cloud's pain, ergo, distracted.

It's not that hard to wrap one's head around. So Sephiroth has the strongest will in existance, big whoop. That doesn't mean that during every single moment he is infallible or that it's impossible for him to, in order to concentrate on something else he consideres more important, to let go far enough and long enough for Zack to sneak and give Cloud of moment of encouragement.

That's true, you can't. But Jenova cells alone don't cause Geostigma. Sephiroth's will has to be active while the cells are still in the living host's body in order for Geostigma to manifest. Why would Zack get a physical disease of the living while dead and his spirit is already separated from the cellular matter of Jenova? You don't carry cells or have a body once you're dead and in the Lifestream.

I never said he had Geostigma. The theory is that he's part of the Negative Lifestream due to part of him being 'aligned' with Jenova, which Sephiroth controls.

Spirit energy and cells aren't that seperate. Spirit energy can coalesce into solid or liquid matter while cells and physical bodies can dissolve into tendrils of Lifestream. So when a person has Jenova cells in their living body, those elements in them don't just dissapear and become null once the person dies, or else the Negative Lifestream wouldn't even be a problem. Sephiroth says in AC/C, to paraphrase, 'all those that share Mother's mimetic legacy will gather in the lifestream, choking it'. There must be something different about Geostigma victims that allows Sephiroth to control them that way, or the Green Lifestream wouldn't be resisting them.

The only possible answer is Jenova cells, which makes them forgien to the Planet. It's parallel to a human having Geostigma on the living surface. The body resists the infection, the alien matter, and goes too far in the effort. Sephiroth is trying to do the same thing with the Planet as a whole. And if Sephiroth can control or influence the beings that had Jenova cells from dying of Geostigma, there is no logical reason, at least none that has been given yet, to say Sephiroth is incapable of corralling beings that had died containing Jenova's essence in the past.

Probably cause it had a different purpose.

Fair enough. They made it look awfully like Emerald though.

Hojo: Every time I see you, I... It pains me that I had so little scientific
sense... I evaluated you as a failed project. But, you are the only one that
succeeded as a Sephiroth-clone. Heh, heh, heh...... I'm even beginning to hate
myself.

See? Cloud was a success. The only way I can imagine Cloud would be a "failure" according to the Complete Guide, would be that he didn't get to fully realize his fate as a success, and was rescued by Zack and allowed to get something close to a personality aside from a vegetable. But in the end, Cloud did what a Sephiroth Copy was supposed to do. Heed the call for Reunion.

I don't understand why we aren't coming to an agreement here. My argument for the CC guide saying Cloud was a failure was that it was talking about Cloud being a precieved failure by Hojo. Which, Hojo obviously considered him so. For some reason, while Cloud was in the Shinra Mansion basement, Hojo didn't find what he was looking for. Cloud wasn't a failure, as it turns out, but at the time of CC he was considered so because he hadn't had the chance to show it. It's not really an issue for a guide based on a game to state the same thing the game does.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I agree that it's not on the same level, but I'm thorough.

I agree that it's not on the same level, but I'm thorough anal.

Fixx'd that for ya

The circumstances are still different. In one, Cloud and Zack planned their escape and successfully executed the plan.

In the other, a stroke of luck allowed them to get out.

Wtf? Its the same circumstance. Both times regarding Cloud and Zacks' escape, they wait for lunch, and Zack then knocks the shit out of the stupid fuck who thought he could feed them and not get their teeth smashed. How is it different?

Yeah, some of the circumstances are different, but CC doesn't say "IGNORE FFVII AND LOOK AT THIS FOREVER IF ITS NOT HERE."

And not being so anal gives us story quality equivalent to FFXIII exploration.

Don't be part of the problem, Mako. Don't be. Just don't.

LOL, I could say the same to you regarding gameplay XD

It might have been vaguely acknowledged when Tseng says that Cloud's just a kid, but it really wasn't addressed even there.

I'm pretty sure Reno said something too, but I mean. We know they thought about it. They were just mum on it in FFVII. What were they supposed to say or do? Maybe they did think/say something to themselves that we hadn't seen.

Didn't say it was exclusive to CC, but CC's included.

CC is hardly the most egregious offender though. That's reserved for BC and DC.

You're drastically missing my point on this one, Mako. The point is that Genesis was a celebrity -- the common person on the street knew about him.

Yeah, Sephiroth was the Fergie of SOLDIER, but Genesis was still the will.i.am.

Of course, and Shinra made Midgar a police state. I'm sure there was some serious intimidation and media black outs that ensured no one spoke of Genesis and anyone who had too much info on it were either killed or silenced. I mean, no where in the Compilation or DC say that no one in the world knew who Genesis was. It just stated that records of "G" had been destroyed and he was considered a taboo, and never spoken of by the company again. They even specifically state that those in Midgar's slums remembered him and said "G sleeps in Midgar." Now again, where's the inconsistency? What's wrong with that? We're basically being told Shinra wrote him out of their records. The world didn't suddenly pull a KH: Chain of Memories and forget he ever existed

And as such it's less egregious an inconsistency. But it's still an inconsistency.

...You were one of those English professors who circled every single misused comma in a paper, when grading it, weren't you?

Eh, denial's denial to me. I don't think she forgot that she'd had that feeling, but she seemed to have effectively convinced herself in the original game that he was probably alright.

Dude, if I convince myself I turned the stove off when I left home, even though I have a feeling I left it on, and then I come back from work to see my house on fire. I'll be surprised yes, but I won't be shocked at the fact its on fire. Seriously. There's surprise and dismay that Zack is dead, but that's not the same as "Zack?! WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE!!!!"

I just find that shit ridiculous.

What makes more sense? That Hojo copied his data prior to injecting himself with JENOVA's cells -- being unable to guess what would actually happen -- in an effort to preserve himself should things go badly, or that he copied the data afterward?

Well both make sense. I see what you're saying but if he really did it before hand, why the hell did he bother sitting at the computer, and do the uploading to the network, filled with bullet holes and cut up? He was just finishing uploading his fragments so...he had to have just done it then with his dying breath.

Lucrecia's fragments interacted with the physical world too, though, taking form and assisting Shelke and Vincent. Lucrecia herself was still in that cave, though.

Lucrecia's fragments helped guide Shelke and Vincent, but they didn't literally take a life of their own and like...start moving around and shit like Hojo.

It's green throughout the rest of DC, though, so I'm going with "It's a hologram" on this one.

Dude, how could it be a hologram though? Look at how it acts when Nero possesses Weiss. It definitely acts ethereal. He's as ghost-like as Nero.

Maybe you're right about that one. Difficult to say. At any rate, look at how the form of Hojo constantly flickers and how there's constant "gaps" running from his feet to the top of his head, and then starting back at his feet again.

That image is a computerized projection.

Hmm..the flickering is an interesting point that does make it appear more digital, I'll give you that... but I seriously don't know how a hologram is going to constantly be broadcast all over the place, and rise out of Weiss's body. Hell, we don't see any cameras or anything. I mean, in the end..Hojo's fragments are still spirit energy. It's made of the same thing spirit energy is. Memories, consciousness, etc.

I guess it really depends on when you believe he uploaded the fragments -- before he injected himself with JENOVA or after.

Going by the opening, it'd be after.

Agreed. All I'm saying, though, is that in the event of his death, he'd have no qualms with tossing his spirit energy to Sephiroth as a means of helping his experiment progress.

Eh, I dunno. If the guy was trying to make himself fly off the planet to be his own god and shit, it doesn't sound like he wanted to be part of his son in the end. He only wanted to help him. Not...sacrifice himself to him.

I don't think it would be a lie so much as it would be not the truth. Meaning, he wouldn't have expected her to take it seriously.

But, again, this is all fanwank.

Dude, that's a lie!

I'm not gettin' down behind a fanfic that depicts Zack as a liar for an incredibly stupid reason. He never had to lie to impress Aerith before, why all of a sudden does he feel the need to now in death, when she could probably since his ass lying thanks to being a Cetra and being of spirit energy? It's just so ridiculous. He never went around gallivanting around Midgar like some mover-and-shaker SOLIDER 1st Class, when he was a second. He was honest.

So his telepathic image would have to reflect a telepathic sound? I don't think that makes sense.

Anyway, as with the above, this is also all just fanwank.

What the fuck? If he was laughing, he'd appear to be laughing. Why would he have an expression of getting fucked up the ass with a pineapple while laughing his ass off maniacally? That is Inappropriate Affect. You don't laugh while looking like you're crying and bleeding. Just...it makes no logical sense at all given the depiction in FFVII.

Yes, but the total Lifestream wasn't in Midgar. Just a portion.

Well with the way Maiden said it, Aerith's cry shook the whole planet's consciousness (i.e. the lifestream) and it all moved to Midgar to help. That ain't right.

No one's saying he is. As I keep repeating, the purpose of this debate is to see if consistency can be fanwanked -- and I think it can be quite easily. Not that DC was at odds with Maiden anyway in my opinion, but we're probably not going to come to an agreement on that one.

I didn't want to have to do this to, you, Mako, but:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/source+materials

Blargh, you know what I mean.

Honestly, I'd never thought before now that the Lifestream Sequence took place anywhere but in the Lifestream. I always assumed all of that stuff we see was more along the lines of Cloud and Tifa's thoughts reacting with the Lifestream around them to form images.

Though your and Fairheartstrife's take makes sense as well.

Merci.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Read --

Zack: in the area
Cloud: receptive
Sephiroth: LOLing at Cloud's pain, ergo, distracted.

It's not that hard to wrap one's head around. So Sephiroth has the strongest will in existance, big whoop. That doesn't mean that during every single moment he is infallible or that it's impossible for him to, in order to concentrate on something else he consideres more important, to let go far enough and long enough for Zack to sneak and give Cloud of moment of encouragement.

If Sephiroth's will were so weak during that time, then why didn't Aerith, who is a Cetra, in the area, and able to control the pure lifestream, have to wait until Sephiroth was completely killed to rain down the cure for Geostigma, or dissipate the Negative Lifestream? I don't get how Zack would be able to cut through the Negative Lifestream while IN it, while Aerith who's not being trapped in it, wouldn't be able to punch through. That doesn't fit.

I never said he had Geostigma. The theory is that he's part of the Negative Lifestream due to part of him being 'aligned' with Jenova, which Sephiroth controls.

He ceased being aligned with Jenova when he shed his mortal coil. His body and cellular matter are gone.

Spirit energy and cells aren't that seperate. Spirit energy can coalesce into solid or liquid matter while cells and physical bodies can dissolve into tendrils of Lifestream. So when a person has Jenova cells in their living body, those elements in them don't just dissapear and become null once the person dies, or else the Negative Lifestream wouldn't even be a problem. Sephiroth says in AC/C, to paraphrase, 'all those that share Mother's mimetic legacy will gather in the lifestream, choking it'. There must be something different about Geostigma victims that allows Sephiroth to control them that way, or the Green Lifestream wouldn't be resisting them.

People who die with Geostigma create a Negative Lifestream because of Sephiroth's will corrupting them. That's what's different. He brands the spirits with his stigma and they become his. It's not just about the cells. There's a spiritual mechanism behind it as well.

The only possible answer is Jenova cells, which makes them forgien to the Planet. It's parallel to a human having Geostigma on the living surface. The body resists the infection, the alien matter, and goes too far in the effort. Sephiroth is trying to do the same thing with the Planet as a whole. And if Sephiroth can control or influence the beings that had Jenova cells from dying of Geostigma, there is no logical reason, at least none that has been given yet, to say Sephiroth is incapable of corralling beings that had died containing Jenova's essence in the past.

He can't because they didn't die with his spiritual will and power within their bodies too. If Sephiroth could control the souls of any person who died with Jenova cells in their body, then he wouldn't have needed the power of Meteor to assimilate the Lifestream. Until he actually diffused parts of his memory and consciousness into the lifestream, he couldn't just control the free-floating cells within the lifestream. He couldn't create Geostigma.

I don't understand why we aren't coming to an agreement here. My argument for the CC guide saying Cloud was a failure was that it was talking about Cloud being a precieved failure by Hojo. Which, Hojo obviously considered him so. For some reason, while Cloud was in the Shinra Mansion basement, Hojo didn't find what he was looking for. Cloud wasn't a failure, as it turns out, but at the time of CC he was considered so because he hadn't had the chance to show it. It's not really an issue for a guide based on a game to state the same thing the game does.

So its from Hojo's perspective? Fair enough. However, he more than likely just forgot about Cloud and automatically thought he was a failure cause he had no tattoo. By the time he examined him, he more than likely thought he was a success as well, since in FFVII, on his chart, he's labeled as a success with a positive reaction.

 

[Tennyo]

And on a more topic related note..

When you have an admin named "Dupe Account" closing threads on the parallels between FFVII and FFXIII because of "a certain issue on how this topic started," after just two pages of civil discussion, you know the forum's given up the ghost.

After nearly two weeks of not a single Clerri responding to any points or posts on the debate section of the forum...that's what the Clerith mod does? Really? El. Oh. El. Is Clerith canon really that dead...? Really?

Wow, I sure am glad I left that mess of a place. I'm not surprised, either. Cloti peeps start making a good point, some mod creates a fake issue and closes the thread. Um...yeah. They are fighting a loosing battle.

Well, there were Nazi insurgents throughout Europe even after the war was over. Still hoping to fight their feeble little cause.

I can't believe I just made that parallel but you all get what I'm saying.

Mako, I almost really want to copy your post and paste it there.