LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[OneWingedDemon]

K, wanna comment on this for a sec:

Also I want you guys to promise me something, promise me that this "feelings of desire" thing is NOT going to become koibito 2.0. Promise me that if that phrase, god forbid, gets used for Cloud and Aerith at any point, you won't flip flop

Who the fuck flip-flopped here?
If anyone flip flopped it was the Clerii, who refused to even acknowledge any romantic connotation and have a plethora of "essays" claiming bullshit like koibito = nice person/sweetheart. They were the ones who consistently refused to acknowledge something called context, mainly because then they have no leg to stand on.

Also, the argument was never what you claim. In the context it was used, as a direct statement from Nomura stating Tifa's role in AC, it means exactly that - the other partner of a romantic couple, inevitably the one who is loved by Cloud. These two are stated to reveal feelings for each other about 3 or 4 times. That's how fucking important the staff deem that particular event to be.
Cloud and Aeris could not have been a couple on account that he was oblivious to any such affection. No relationship has ever been established.
We have always been consistent in saying that koibito = the one loved and CoL was never an exception. The problem with CoL is that Aeris from her POV is describing what Cloud is to HER (a symbol), a friend and the object of her affection -- her beloved.
Cloud is thus the one loved. Where do you see the fucking flip-flopping?
Put down the pink kool-aid, might give you gas.

 

[Tennyo]

Wow, OWD, I swear every post you make is very, very angry. Yet you also make some of the best points.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

LOL, I think it's the Dean icon.

I just don't see the supposed flip-flop when it was the Clerii who clung to the English "sweetheart" (which in this context did not fit) and started claiming Tifa was just a sweetheart to everyone, meaning a nice person.

I think people forget where the "Tifa's everyone's koibito" joke started.

+ as an aside, wasn't koibito used for Zack/Aeris somewhere? I'm pretty sure I didn't dream this. LOLz
Ryu? Someone confirm or deny

Also, LMAO @ Shroudy. Quick! Hide the evidence!
I wonder if the only reason he doesn't close the one started by Q regarding feelings of desiah = beause it'll draw attention to it. What? what feelings?

 

[Dashell]

LOL @ you guys thinking I said you all flip flopped on koibito... Do you really think I don't know the Clerii flip flopped with that one? I've seen both sides do it when it comes to the LT on various issues.

After nearly two weeks of not a single Clerri responding to any points or posts on the debate section of the forum...that's what the Clerith mod does? Really? El. Oh. El. Is Clerith canon really that dead...? Really?

Apparently Tres posting stuff from a private forum was the problem... I don't see why the topic needs to be closed though...

Also we'll be seeing a response to that desire thing now... they have a counter argument.

 

[Ryushikaze]

LOL @ you guys thinking I said you all flip flopped on koibito...

THEN WHO FLIPPED ON IT?

Do you really think I don't know the Clerii flip flopped with that one? I've seen both sides do it when it comes to the LT on various issues.

Such as?

Apparently Tres posting stuff from a private forum was the problem... I don't see why the topic needs to be closed though...

Because Shroudy wants the forum to fail.

Also we'll be seeing a response to that desire thing now... they have a counter argument.

No they don't. They THINK they do. They don't. Haven't had a counterargument for years now.

 

[Dashell]

THEN WHO FLIPPED ON IT?

WHO THE HELL ELSE IS LEFT?

Such as?

Kingdom Hearts

Because Shroudy wants the forum to fail.

Oh

No they don't. They THINK they do. They don't. Haven't had a counterargument for years now.

Point.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I'd like an example of who and how Clotis have flip flopped on Kingdom Hearts, please.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, the only reason KH2 'matters' is because the creators explicitly stated there was a parallel there between it and AC. Hell, that speaks more about KH2 than it does AC.
Seriously, KH matters as much as Ehrgeiz. Which is to say more than Parasite Eve, but less than actually mattering.

And that doesn't answer the question of which C/T advocates have flip flopped on the Koibito issue. Our biggest 'sin' would probably be dumbing the shit down as time slogged on, with a reversion to the more nuanced arguments once the arguments RE: COLW and the Pinker flip flop reared their heads.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I also need to know where it explains Cloud's reluctance at reciprocating Aerith's advances is a result of him not being forthright with his feelings, and that Barret, Cid, and Cait Sith, clearly know better than Cloud and saw he was falling for her.

Cause now we have a problem. Cause the 10th Anniversary Ultimania tells me:

Both Aerith, who is forthright, and Tifa, who is demure, have feelings for Cloud but he is none the wiser to them.

So either the creator's are trolling, or that pink kool-aid has now somehow found its way in the drinking supply.

We need to establish some ground rules. Did Cloud love or show romantic interest in Aerith? Yay, or Nay?

Is it writen in the canon by the creators, that Cloud was romantically interested, or involved with Aerith? Yay, or Nay?

 

[Dashell]

... I'm wondering how far I want to take this as I don't think it's worth pissing people off to do.

Are you guys gonna be pissed off if I keep going?

We need to establish some ground rules. Did Cloud love or show romantic interest in Aerith? Yay, or Nay?

Is it writen in the canon by the creators, that Cloud was romantically interested, or involved with Aerith? Yay, or Nay?

Nay and nay, and it said he was unaware of their feelings, not that he didn't have feelings for them.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Not really pissed, just want a straight answer. Take it as far as necessary to coherently illustrate your point and answer these simple questions.

So if he's not aware of their feelings, how can he be reciprocating their interest?

Let's make a large leap in logic and say that even though he's not aware of Aerith's feelings for him, he has romantic feelings for Aerith. Alright. When and where are these romantic feelings for Aerith manifested by the actual Cloud, not the flirty, indentity-fucked mish-mash created in part from his own insecurity and Jenova cells?

And then on another note, why would Nojima refer to Cloud and Aerith as a hypothetical, instead of as a relationship cut tragically short?

 

[Ryushikaze]

We will be angry if you do not name names and then provide evidence. Broad sweeping smears without basis are quite infuriating, Quex.

 

[Makoeyes987]

LOL, it's Good Cloti, Bad Cloti, up in here.

 

[Dashell]

Not really pissed, just want a straight answer. Take it as far as necessary to coherently illustrate your point and answer these simple questions.

Okay, you're saying that no Clotis ever changed their argument when it came to koibito, right?

Let's make a large leap in logic and say that even though he's not aware of Aerith's feelings for him, he has romantic feelings for Aerith. Alright. When and where are these romantic feelings for Aerith manifested by the actual Cloud, not the flirty, indentity-fucked mish-mash created in part from his own insecurity and Jenova cells?

They weren't, but IMO that doesn't make them any less relevant. Those feelings didn't just disappear when he returned to his true self. They were still there, he just realized Tifa was the one he was meant to be with.

We will be angry if you do not name names and then provide evidence. Broad sweeping smears without basis are quite infuriating, Quex.

One step at a time here...

 

[Zee]

I'd like an example of who and how Clotis have flip flopped on Kingdom Hearts, please.

I think those arguments come from the fact that no one here gave a shit about KH until Tifa was in it.

Also I'm pretty sure there are quotes floating around paralleling KH!Cloud and Aerith (and their relationship) to FF7. So yeah.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Okay, you're saying that no Clotis ever changed their argument when it came to koibito, right?

No. But neither did any 'flip- flop' Arguments have changed over time. No one denies that. But it did not happen in backscramble to COLW.

One step at a time here...

Yes. And this step should come FIRST.

Zee- we still don't 'give a shit' about KH in that no one thinks it actually says anything about the original series that the original series doesn't already say. It's just FUN to crush asinine AU arguments there, too.
And they are asinine, so don't even pretend they aren't.

 

[Winter]

If only ACF were still around, I'd show you the DEFINITION of flip flopping.

I can't even remember who or what or even when, but everyone wrote off Kingdom Hearts until Tifa showed up, at which point it became MOAR EVIDENCE U GUISE.

 

[Ryushikaze]

If only ACF were still around, I'd show you the DEFINITION of flip flopping.

I can't even remember who or what or even when, but everyone wrote off Kingdom Hearts until Tifa showed up, at which point it became MOAR EVIDENCE U GUISE.

No, it became 'You lose at your own damn game, suck it.' Not evidence.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay, you're saying that no Clotis ever changed their argument when it came to koibito, right?

That's a fallacy of composition Que. I'm not saying no one ever has changed their mind. Every human in the world changes their mind. How is one or two isolated examples indicative of the entire, general whole?

They weren't, but IMO that doesn't make them any less relevant. Those feelings didn't just disappear when he returned to his true self. They were still there, he just realized Tifa was the one he was meant to be with.

So...feelings and flirtations manifested while he wasn't in his sanest state of mind are as relevant as the feelings he had when he was completely himself, and returned to once his identity was reconstructed?

Okay. So if you said that you wanted to break up with your husband while under the influence of PCP and signed the divorce papers, would your feelings and judgment be as relevant as your judgment when not under the influence?

If only ACF were still around, I'd show you the DEFINITION of flip flopping.

I can't even remember who or what or even when, but everyone wrote off Kingdom Hearts until Tifa showed up, at which point it became MOAR EVIDENCE U GUISE.

It only became relevant when Nomura said it mirrored AC's plot, and directly inferred Tifa was Cloud's light. A direct reflection of the Compilation of FFVII was established, when before, Nomura said was completely unrelated to FFVII and a separate story.

Of course a change in perception of KH would occur. That's only logical.

 

[Dashell]

Various members here, including myself, were under the impression that koibito meant one side of a mutual relationship. When CoLW came out, the only explanation was that Aerith was wrong in saying Cloud was her koibito.

The argument of koibito just meaning "desired one" didn't come up until later. If the word just means desired one, why didn't that come up when CoLW came out?

 

[Zee]

Zee- we still don't 'give a shit' about KH in that no one thinks it actually says anything about the original series that the original series doesn't already say. It's just FUN to crush asinine AU arguments there, too.
And they are asinine, so don't even pretend they aren't.

It's fun to do what now?

It's asinine to use AUs as evidence of Cleris in relation to FF7, but it's also just as asinine to pretended you don't care when there are pages and pages of arguments trying to push Aeris out of this (non existant~) relationship for Tifa.

obv it doesn't matter but we'll all fight to the death anyway, is that what you're saying?

 

[Winter]

No, it became 'You lose at your own damn game, suck it.' Not evidence.

What game? KH was (in LTD terms) fun for Cleris because it had pretty obvious C/A undertones and SE proved yet again that they have a soft spot for the pairing.

I personally have NEVER, EVER said (nor do I think) that KH has any bearing on the compilation.

But you guys went from "oh what SE does in KH doesn't matter" to "LOOK HOW MUCH THEY LOVE CLOTI HURRRR"

It only became relevant when Nomura said it mirrored AC's plot, and directly inferred Tifa was Cloud's light. A direct reflection of the Compilation of FFVII was established, when before, Nomura said was completely unrelated to FFVII and a separate story.

Okay how the hell is "mirroring AC's plot" relevant to the Compilation? I mean honestly, KH2 was the most shit version of Tifa on earth, and while yes, I see the similarities, Cloti was very obviously not the focus.

Cloud wanted to get back to Hollow Bastion and making sweet sweet love to Aerith.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's fun to do what now?

It's asinine to use AUs as evidence of Cleris in relation to FF7, but it's also just as asinine to pretended you don't care when there are pages and pages of arguments trying to push Aeris out of this (non existant~) relationship for Tifa.

Let me put it this way- AUs don't matter, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN PEOPLE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SPOUT BULLSHIT ABOUT THEM EITHER.
Happy?

obv it doesn't matter but we'll all fight to the death anyway, is that what you're saying?

I fight stupid. That's what I do.

LV, I certainly fucking didn't, and most if not all of the people here feel the same. So if you don't want to be painted with a broad brush, don't paint others with it either.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Various members here, including myself, were under the impression that koibito meant one side of a mutual relationship. When CoLW came out, the only explanation was that Aerith was wrong in saying Cloud was her koibito.

Then you and various members missed a fundamental point that's been stated repeatedly regarding context, and how Nomura speaking outside of the universe regarding Tifa's character as a koibito, can't exist in a vacuum. The very context of her being called a lover in a third person quotation by said director, must mean she is a lover to someone. If said my character Joe, was a husband/lover to someone, that must mean he's in a relationship.

The argument of koibito just meaning "desired one" didn't come up until later. If the word just means desired one, why didn't that come up when CoLW came out?

Because it had no place in a statement regarding Tifa's role as a character and participant as an actual person. Again. A creator stating what Tifa is in an out of universe example is not the same as a character stating what they feel in a third person novella.

 

[Dashell]

That's a fallacy of composition Que. I'm not saying no one ever has changed their mind. Every human in the world changes their mind. How is one or two isolated examples indicative of the entire, general whole?

Okay so mabye not flip flopping, but arguments have changed is all I was saying.

So...feelings and flirtations manifested while he wasn't in his sanest state of mind are as relevant as the feelings he had when he was completely himself, and returned to once his identity was reconstructed?

Those feelings were still there when he became his normal self right? If they weren't, he would have acted very differently. Aerith's death probably wouldn't have bothered him nearly as much.

Okay. So if you said that you wanted to break up with your husband while under the influence of PCP and signed the divorce papers, would your feelings and judgment be as relevant as your judgment when not under the influence?

Nice example... except that Cloud still held Aerith very close to his heart when he became his normal self again. Obviously I wouldn't have the same feelings I had under PCP when I came off the PCP.

EDIT
Ill wait for you to reply before i respond here...