LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Zee]

The argument of koibito just meaning "desired one" didn't come up until later. If the word just means desired one, why didn't that come up when CoLW came out?

Haven't you learned yet? IT ONLY COUNTS FOR TIFA.

And here, delicious copypasta from that infamous koibito thread at C/A:

"It's one party of a mutual relationship, that's the meaning of it."

A MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP

THAT'S THE MEANING OF IT

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay so mabye not flip flopping, but arguments have changed is all I was saying.

Arguments are going to change when new materials in a series are released, and new information is revealed regarding the dynamics between the characters in said series. Arguments that stay static regardless of what new information comes out, are already doomed from the start.

Those feelings were still there when he became his normal self right? If they weren't, he would have acted very differently. Aerith's death probably wouldn't have bothered him nearly as much.

Are you trying to say Cloud's reaction and feelings regarding Aerith's death are romantic? If that's the case, are Cloud's feeling for Zack stronger than Cloud given his reaction towards his death?

Nice example... except that Cloud still held Aerith very close to his heart when he became his normal self again. Obviously I wouldn't have the same feelings I had under PCP when I came off the PCP.

Of course he did. He wore a pink ribbon, and wanted to remember her, just like all the other members of AVALANCHE. And he carried a sense of guilt regarding her death, just like he did for Zack. Aerith became the representation of his failures. Oh yes, she's very close to his heart. As the expression of his guilt.

Does that somehow equal romance now?

Haven't you learned yet? IT ONLY COUNTS FOR TIFA.

And here, delicious copypasta from that infamous koibito thread at C/A:

"It's one party of a mutual relationship, that's the meaning of it."

A MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP

THAT'S THE MEANING OF IT

It's fun taking arguments, and stripping them of their context.

So you're saying koibito's usage is the exact same in Lifestream White as it is in Nomura's Reunion Files quote?

 

[Zee]

So you're saying koibito's usage is the exact same in Lifestream White as it is in Nomura's Reunion Files quote?

Yes.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yes.

So Nomura in an interview, calling Tifa's role in the story as a lover, is the same as a character in a novella in said story universe, expressing how she sees a character as a lover?

The character's in-universe comments are of equal weight and significance to the creator?

 

[Dashell]

Then you and various members missed a fundamental point that's been stated repeatedly regarding context, and how Nomura speaking outside of the universe regarding Tifa's character as a koibito, can't exist in a vacuum. The very context of her being called a lover in a third person quotation by said director, must mean she is a lover to someone. If said my character Joe, was a husband/lover to someone, that must mean he's in a relationship.

Then I say
But why is she a lover and not just desired by someone?

and you say.

Because it had no place in a statement regarding Tifa's role as a character and participant as an actual person. Again. A creator stating what Tifa is in an out of universe example is not the same as a character stating what they feel in a third person novella.

Okay so what do you think Aerith is saying exactly?

Are you trying to say Cloud's reaction and feelings regarding Aerith's death are romantic? If that's the case, are Cloud's feeling for Zack stronger than Cloud given his reaction towards his death?

You said Cloud's feelings toward Aerith when he wasn't himself don't matter as much as the real Cloud's feelings. Therefore, Cloud was messed up when Zack died, so those feelings don't matter as much.

Of course he did. He wore a pink ribbon, and wanted to remember her, just like all the other members of AVALANCHE. And he carried a sense of guilt regarding her death, just like he did for Zack. Aerith became the representation of his failures. Oh yes, she's very close to his heart. As the expression of his guilt.

Does that somehow equal romance now?

By itself it doesn't. But when you have characters in the game saying they notice Cloud cares for someone, Tifa thinking Aerith is a love rival, even Marlene saying that she thinks Cloud likes Aerith, them going on a date, her being forever engraved in his heart... it adds up.

 

[Zee]

@Mako: Yes. This ridiculous nitpicking over the word is pretty embarrassing for everyone involved. If Aeris is directly telling us Cloud was her koibito, then there was something there, since she's not batshit crazy. If Nomura is telling us that Tifa is currently a koibito, we don't have to do much sleuthing to figure out who it is. Either way, "mututal" is a part of the definition (which has been argued several times in threads like these, so I don't understand why people magically forgot their own arguments) so Cloud's feelings for both of them, on whatever level, was mututal.

Cloud loved Aeris.
He currently loves (and is in a relationship with) Tifa.

By itself it doesn't. But when you have characters in the game saying they notice Cloud cares for someone, Tifa thinking Aerith is a love rival, even Marlene saying that she thinks Cloud likes Aerith, them going on a date, her being forever engraved in his heart... it adds up.

A+

 

[Ryushikaze]

We're facing a glorious inability to determine from context problem...

Lover and Beloved are BOTH acceptable uses of Koibito. That's been true long before COLW. For Aerith to call Cloud her lover makes no sense, given he was oblivious to her interest. Hence we either assume she's wrong, exaggerating, or is using the alternate but less common meaning.

Nothing in the RF quote indicates that the less commonly used meaning should be used.
There is no flip flopping.
All RF quotes speak of its context.
Early quotes ON the matter, in fact, DEALT with the 'it also means Beloved but that's unlikely in context' before being taken out for redundancy and laziness.

BTW, the context of these people noting Cloud 'cares' for Aerith? Because these people ALSO 'care' for Aerith. CID fucking 'cares' for Aerith. Context matters and I don't want any equivocation here, ESPECIALLY not so soon after the flip flop accusation BS.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Then I say
But why is she a lover and not just desired by someone?

Because the Japanese sentence is describing actualized, lived aspects of her life and existence within the story. It's not talking about her roles, traits, or what she "is like." They're talking about what she *is* as a person and manifesting herself. She *is* a lover. Tifa is a lover. There is a difference and clear context of what the sentence says.

Okay so what do you think Aerith is saying exactly?

Aerith is expressing that she sees Cloud as a friend, lover, and person who's existence is dear to her.

You said Cloud's feelings toward Aerith when he wasn't himself don't matter as much as the real Cloud's feelings. Therefore, Cloud was messed up when Zack died, so those feelings don't matter as much.

We weren't just talking about feelings, we were talking about romantic feelings. Don't shift the subject. Cloud's romantic choices and feelings which were manifestations of a false persona created by Jenova are not the same as his real ones. When he saw Zack die, he was not under a false persona or expressing a fake personality. That's not the same situation.

By itself it doesn't. But when you have characters in the game saying they notice Cloud cares for someone, Tifa thinking Aerith is a love rival, even Marlene saying that she thinks Cloud likes Aerith, them going on a date, her being forever engraved in his heart... it adds up.

Please give me these examples where characters in the game state Cloud is showing romantic interest in Aerith.

Tifa's jealousy of Aerith does not mean Cloud is reciprocating said feelings. That's a fallacy.

A 5 year old child who does not know anything about Cloud, or Aerith is an accurate compass of compatibility? Did Cloud want this date? Did Cloud and Aerith refer to their brief meeting that was interrupted by Cloud chasing after Tifa, and where he didn't even fully showing interest in her, as a date? Are we going to look at this critically or just gloss over it and try to stamp a black or pink proofz label on it?

@Mako: Yes. This ridiculous nitpicking over the word is pretty embarrassing for everyone involved. If Aeris is directly telling us Cloud was her koibito, then there was something there, since she's not batshit crazy. If Nomura is telling us that Tifa is currently a koibito, we don't have to do much sleuthing to figure out who it is. Either way, "mututal" is a part of the definition (which has been argued several times in threads like these, so I don't understand why people magically forgot their own arguments) so Cloud's feelings for both of them, on whatever level, was mututal.

What's ridiculous is people throwing reading comprehension out the window and propping up an in-universe statement to the same level as a word-of-god declaration from the creator... just because it uses the same damn word. By that very logic, the planet belongs to Sephiroth, and Cloud is actually a SOLDIER 1st Class. Sephiroth and Cloud said so, thus it must be true.

If Aerith is stating how she thinks of Cloud as her koibito, it does not equal the same thing as Nomura definitively stating that Tifa IS a koibito in the Compilation.

 

[Winter]

For Aerith to call Cloud her lover makes no sense, given he was oblivious to her interest.

....wat

If Aerith is stating how she thinks of Cloud as her koibito, it does not equal the same thing as Nomura definitively stating that Tifa IS a koibito in the Compilation.

Because Aerith is either lying or too stupid to know if Cloud was her lover? I don't buy that.

 

[Zee]

1. Write a novella
2. Make sure nothing your character says in this novella is at all true or relevant
3. Have this character make a comment on their relationship with another character
4. ???
5. PROFIT

 

[Winter]

1. Write a novella
2. Make sure nothing your character says in this novella is at all true or relevant
3. Have this character make a comment on their relationship with another character
4. ???
5. PROFIT

 

[Makoeyes987]

....

wat



Because Aerith is either lying or too stupid to know if Cloud was her lover? I don't buy that.

A word's meaning isn't just gleamed from the dictionary, it is determined by sentence structure and context.

Because Aerith is either lying or too stupid to know if Cloud was her lover? I don't buy that.

No, because the novella is 3rd Person Restricted and is an expression of what Aerith feels regarding Cloud. Not his definitive role and position in FFVII or the entire Compilation of FFVII proper.

Does the planet belong to Sephiroth because he said so? Yes or no, please.

 

[Zee]

A word's meaning isn't just gleamed from the dictionary, it is determined by sentence structure and context.

asfl;asfas fashahahhahah ahfasf

i fucking LOVE this fandom

 

[Dashell]

Aerith is expressing that she sees Cloud as a friend, lover, and person who's existence is dear to her.

Hmm...

Cloud is a symbol of her beloved. Which makes sense as reference to Zack and Cloud also being dear to her. Unless you think Cloud's a symbol of himself completely which is ridiculously redundant and unnecessary. The modifier of him being a symbol is there for a reason.

The sentence isn't a stand alone declaration that Cloud is solely her beloved. That's pinkerton half-assed analysis. The sentence implicitly references that Cloud's status as her beloved is contingent on his symbolism "of what was important to her."

... okay...

Because the Japanese sentence is describing actualized, lived aspects of her life and existence within the story. It's not talking about her roles, traits, or what she "is like." They're talking about what she *is* as a person and manifesting herself. She *is* a lover. Tifa is a lover. There is a difference and clear context of what the sentence says.

You weren't supposed to reply to that XD I replied for you.

We weren't just talking about feelings, we were talking about romantic feelings.

Oh well SHIT.

Don't shift the subject. Cloud's romantic choices and feelings which were manifestations of a false persona created by Jenova are not the same as his real ones. When he saw Zack die, he was not under a false persona or expressing a fake personality. That's not the same situation.

Your point was he wasn't himself when he was possibly showing interest in Aerith.. my point was that he wasn't himself when he saw Zack die, it's the same thing.

Please give me these examples where characters in the game state Cloud is showing romantic interest in Aerith.

• When rushing into Shinra
  Barret: So you do care for someone?
• Tifa gets jealous quickly of Aerith.
• Cait Sith saying they were perfect for each other. Yeah he's a stuffed cat who knows jack all about fortune telling but he said it for a reason.
• Marlene but you addressed that.

If Aerith is stating how she thinks of Cloud as her koibito, it does not equal the same thing as Nomura definitively stating that Tifa IS a koibito in the Compilation.

Should we throw other character statements out the window then? Like Tifa wears the pants from Cid? Does that not equate because it's not Nomura saying it?

 

[Makoeyes987]

So words only mean what the first definition in a dictionary says. Context and syntax mean nothing. Glad to know grammar and language changed since I was in high school.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Hojo said he'd copied his consciousnesses as a fail-safe -- and a fail-safe is typically a measure you take before you cross the Rubicon, not after. So he'd copied his mind prior to injecting himself with JENOVA's cells.

He likely had the program set to activate at a certain time in the event that he died.

That's an awful lot of assuming and insertion of story by the audience/player for that scenario to work... just sayin'...

No, it was the night that Diamond attacked Midgar (updated to that night by Case of Shin-Ra, where it should have been all along). Vince and Yuffie were with Cloud and the others fighting Seph in the crater (which the 10th Anniversary Ultimania had been saying was the case for a while; though it also claimed that Vince and Yuffie somehow participated in evacuations after fighting Seph, which was retarded).

**shrug** Okay, then. Screwy time line is screwy.

Come on, that's more semantic quibbling when the topic was again obvious. It was clear that we were discussing whether CC contradicts other canon titles.

Semantic quibbling with the King of Anal (and yes, that's your new title) is just fun.

That's indicated by me quoting something previously written rather than typing it all out again? XD

Nope, that's from me realizing you wrote all that shit to begin with.

My meaning was obvious here too. I was saying that if consistency was the standard for inclusion in canon, then CC and a lot of other things would fall short.

But consistency is a standard, and aside from minor tweaks, CC in no way outright contradicts any events in FFVII. Elaborated, tweaked, altered a bit, sure, but nothing is completely ignored or changed in order to shoehorn it into compilation. Which is my point.

Yeah, nobody's discussing whether Maiden is canon. Whether Maiden is capable of being consistent with other titles isn't related to whether it's canon.

Fair enough. I still say it is an inconsistent character assassination that does NOT maintain compilation consistency. **shrug**

And I think that I get the idea of how "canon" is defined as well as anyone here. XD I've written at-length on the topic.

I've written essays on Bratz Dolls, doesn't mean anyone countering me can't insert their assertions and reminders on that topic.

Thoughts/consciousnesses/memories=Lifestream. Hell, Lucrecia's fragments talked to Vincent and even took physical form briefly to help Shelke and Vincent out.

I'm sorry but "Life signs detected" on a handheld PDA-device-thing still doesn't mesh with computer fragmented soul bits. Just, no. There, again, would have to be a lot of assumption about the technology in Yuffie's hand.

Yuffie said they had already checked the Sister Ray prior to that.

I see no signs that Hojo was anything but cold -- and I find it especially odd that while taking the understanding that his body had been laying there for a week without doing anything, you think he was still alive and just then getting around to taking care of things. That is a more simple explanation than the fail-safe program he'd set up just happening to execute at that time?

He just happens to be sitting dead at the terminal that the fail safe program activates on? On the Sister Ray? Not in a lab, or an office, or an underground bunker? But on the Sister Ray? Sure...why not?

Making a tongue-in-cheek statement while joking doesn't make one a liar.

It wasn't tongue-in-cheek. It was a borderline pathetic call for attention. Also, very un-Zack. But, as you asserted, that's fanwank. But wank about that shit, I shall.

And you need to calm down.

Is there a reason you sound pissed in this entire post?

I am calm. I'm almost always calm on fan forums. Anyone who gets legitimately pissed off on a fan-forum needs to take a step back from the computer and take a breath--or find a life. Either option works.

And I always sound pissed. It's my 'tone'. Just ask my husband.

I checked Maiden again and it doesn't say that Aerith met Zack when she was 17. It just says that when she was 17 (which would have been her age the last time she saw him) his carefree smile had attracted her to him.

Sooooo...she meets him at 15, dates him, but isn't attracted to him until she's 17...? Okay, then.

I was offering an illustration of a point I was making to facilitate better understanding of the point.

By using an outside source not even of the same genre to exemplify a point that was understood as it was, but held in contention? Ok, gotchya.

I highly doubt Nojima layed out the battle sequences in Advent Children. That was probably all Nomura.

And Nomura worked WITH Nojima to make sure everything was cohesive. They are a team. The dynamic duo of the FF world. **hearts**

Is that the precedent for Aerith being able to literally live inside Cloud? You're saying Tifa's already done it?

I'm saying that Cloud's heart called out to her and she answered. I'm saying that the events that unfolded took place within the confines of Cloud's mind, and therein were without audience. I am not saying that since Tifa swam in lifestream she is now of lifestream and since everything is made of lifestream she lives inside Cloud's scrotum sac, no.

Wait, what?

What, what?

The story said she gleaned the truth about her father from them when they fell in, so that particular mechanic is definitely at work, and she did, indeed, gain some stuff from Tifa and Cloud during that time.

Wait, what story? Maiden? The one I say is full of shit? That story? Or am I missing a key element of compilation?

I really think you thought you'd come to a different debate. XD

*shrug* I saw something interesting enough to comment on, so I commented. I tend to do that.

Honestly, I'd never thought before now that the Lifestream Sequence took place anywhere but in the Lifestream. I always assumed all of that stuff we see was more along the lines of Cloud and Tifa's thoughts reacting with the Lifestream around them to form images.

Though your and Fairheartstrife's take makes sense as well.

Thanks.

 

[Winter]

No, because the novella is 3rd Person Restricted and is an expression of what Aerith feels regarding Cloud. Not his definitive role and position in FFVII or the entire Compilation of FFVII proper.

Does the planet belong to Sephiroth because he said so? Yes or no, please.

Sephiroth is insane. That's what I'm saying -- is Aerith just crazy or was Cloud her lover?

If Aerith wanted to say "I loved Cloud" she would have. But she didn't. She said "Cloud was my sweetheart/lover/harblgarbl".

 

[Makoeyes987]

Your point was he wasn't himself when he was possibly showing interest in Aerith.. my point was that he wasn't himself when he saw Zack die, it's the same thing.

Who was Cloud when he saw Zack die? He only created the false persona when he saw Tifa at the train station. So who was he, Que?

• When rushing into Shinra
  Barret: So you do care for someone?
• Tifa gets jealous quickly of Aerith.
• Cait Sith saying they were perfect for each other. Yeah he's a stuffed cat who knows jack all but he said it for a reason.
• Marlene but you addressed that.

Barret and Tifa rushed in with him. Barret asked a general question. Tifa has romantic feelings for Cloud and feels threatened by Aerith because she loves him and is demure.

Cait Sith's predictions are notoriously wrong. Where's your argument?

Should we throw other character statements out the window then? Like Tifa wears the pants from Cid? Does that not count because it's not Nomura saying it?

Congratulations, you've just crafted a strawman. That's irrelevant. Are Aerith's own words equal to word of god? Does her words trump Nomura? It's a yes or no question.

 

[Dashell]

It's funny how Clotis and Cleriths alike use the context argument to prove their koibito statement is more important.

Also this really has become "our koibito statement can beat up your koibito statement!"

Who was Cloud when he saw Zack die? He only created the false persona when he saw Tifa at the train station. So who was he, Que?

Some guy who could barely form sentences together.

Barret and Tifa rushed in with him. Barret asked a general question. Tifa has romantic feelings for Cloud and feels threatened by Aerith because she loves him and is demure.

Cait Sith's predictions are notoriously wrong. Where's your argument?

And what reason did Cait Sith have to say that CxA were perfect for each other?

Congratulations, you've just crafted a strawman. That's irrelevant. Are Aerith's own words equal to word of god? Does her words trump Nomura? It's a yes or no question.

No dude I did not, your point was that Aerith's words aren't as important as the creators, so I asked if Cid's statement should fall along the same lines.

and the answer is no.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Sephiroth is insane. That's what I'm saying -- is Aerith just crazy or was Cloud her lover?

No one said Aerith was crazy. We said it was Aerith stating how she felt and what Cloud was to her. Cloud was like a lover to her and symbolic of all she held dear. Now how does that equate to Nomura stating Tifa is a lover to Cloud? Who says she's crazy?

If Aerith wanted to say "I loved Cloud" she would have. But she didn't. She said "Cloud was my sweetheart/lover/harblgarbl".

She stated what Cloud and how he was symbolic. In a novella that was an expression of what she was thinking and doing. Now again. Do her words somehow equal word of god now? If Sephiroth's own words don't, why do Aerith's?

It's funny how Clotis and Cleriths alike use the context argument to prove their koibito statement is more important.

Also this really has become "our koibito statement can beat up your koibito statement!"

Stop generalizing, and give examples. What are you talking about? Bring up an argument, or concede. Generalizations are meaningless. Do you have any actual facts to refute said position? How does the context of these two statement equal each other?

Some guy who could barely form sentences together.

Wrong. Cloud was mako poisoned. He wasn't anyone but a mako poisoned Cloud.

And what reason did Cait Sith have to say that CxA were perfect for each other?

His own cracked opinion that is merely subjective and hardly infallible or anything close to correct in terms of prediction.

No dude I did not, your point was that Aerith's words aren't as important as the creators, so I asked if Cid's statement should fall along the same lines.

and the answer is no.

When have Cid's words ever been propped up to the level of the creators? Why are you bringing Cid up? Has Cid used a similar word a creator has that has made people say Cid's words are just the same as Nomura's? If not, its irrelevant.

 

[Zee]

If Aerith wanted to say "I loved Cloud" she would have. But she didn't. She said "Cloud was my sweetheart/lover/harblgarbl".

It's pretty funny that Maiden actually just has Aeris expressing her love for Cloud but the official version uses a word implying a relationship.

It's funny how Clotis and Cleriths alike use the context argument to prove their koibito statement is more important.

Also this really has become "our koibito statement can beat up your koibito statement!"

Cleris: "In this context, Cloud is never mentioned, and it's just listing traits Tifa has!"
Cloti: "Aeris may be calling Cloud her koibito, but what the fuck does she know!"

His own cracked opinion that is merely subjective and hardly infallible or anything close to correct in terms of prediction.

So Cait Sith, Barret, Tifa, and Marlene are all delusional nutjobs to think something was going on.

 

[Ryushikaze]

It's funny how Clotis and Cleriths alike use the context argument to prove their koibito statement is more important.

Also this really has become "our koibito statement can beat up your koibito statement!"

This isn't context to mean more important, this is CONTEXT TO DETERMINE USED DEFINITION.
This is looking at a situation and realizing that a certain definition makes NO FUCKING SENSE in that situation. It's like saying the 'tender' memories in the lifestream are painful ones.

Some guy who could barely form sentences together.

And yet he was still himself, even if mostly catatonic, and not a pastiche personality.

And what reason did Cait Sith have to say that CxA were perfect for each other?

BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO OBVIOUSLY HAS FEELINGS FOR CLOUD ASKED FOR THE PREDICTION AND THAT IS HOW YOU DO IT.
By comparison, Cloud DOES NOT CARE. He does not react AT ALL to the shit Cait is spewing.

No dude I did not, your point was that Aerith's words aren't as important as the creators, so I asked if Cid's statement should fall along the same lines.

and the answer is no.

It still does not address the argument he was making.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's pretty funny that Maiden actually just has Aeris expressing her love for Cloud but the official version uses a word implying a relationship.

Its a word implying romance. In a novella about Aerith's feelings.

Cleris: "In this context, Cloud is never mentioned, and it's just listing traits Tifa has!"
Cloti: "Aeris may be calling Cloud her koibito, but what the fuck does she know!"

Aerith knows what she feels about Cloud and what he symbolizes. No one debated that. Stop making this a false dilemma regarding whether or not people think Aerith is crazy or not.

So Cait Sith, Barret, Tifa, and Marlene are all delusional nutjobs to think something was going on.

They never expressed Cloud going after Aerith romantically. Marlene is the only one who said anything close. A five year old's opinion of romantic entanglement.

 

[Dashell]

Stop generalizing, and give examples. What are you talking about? Bring up an argument, or concede. Generalizations are meaningless. Do you have any actual facts to refute said position? How does the context of these two statement equal each other?

What Zee said

Wrong. Cloud was mako poisoned. He wasn't anyone but a mako poisoned Cloud.

He was messed up dude.. he was NOT himself... a mako poisoned Cloud is a very different Cloud from a .. non.. mako poisoned Cloud. Anyways I don't even remember what my point was here...

His own cracked opinion that is merely subjective and hardly infallible or anything close to correct in terms of prediction.

By itself sure... but then you put all those other little bits and pieces together and they form a puzzle. Why have all these pieces if they do not form a puzzle?

When have Cid's words ever been propped up to the level of the creators? Why are you bringing Cid up? Has Cid used a similar word a creator has that has made people say Cid's words are just the same as Nomura's? If not, its irrelevant.

But yeah... why would Nojima use a word that usually implies a mutual relationship to make it seem like her love was one sided? That's all I want to know.
EDIT
Actually NM, it means beloved, the end.

BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO OBVIOUSLY HAS FEELINGS FOR CLOUD ASKED FOR THE PREDICTION AND THAT IS HOW YOU DO IT.
By comparison, Cloud DOES NOT CARE. He does not react AT ALL to the shit Cait is spewing.

Yet he still does this if Tifa is in the room, does he not?

And yet he was still himself, even if mostly catatonic, and not a pastiche personality.

No dude, he was not himself. A catatonic Cloud is not the real Cloud... but again, I can't even remember what I was trying to prove here.

 

[KissTheRain]

GAWD, I'm getting so sick of this thread I mean there is no LTD anymore. Tifa accepted that Cloud loves AERITH so why are we discussing this...? I mean Cloud wanted forgiveness from AERITH not Tifa, and Cloud is in parallel games with AERITH (KH > KHII) and for goodness sake Cait Sith even said that Cloud and AERITH were compatible so why do you delusional Cloti's think this? And Cloud and AERITH had sex more likely in the gondala then TifaxCloud did on the highwind. Jeezz....