LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling
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Makoeyes987
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Stop it Que. You're not even forming coherent arguments anymore. Either debate the topic and stop generalizing, or concede. Address the damn argument and explain how the contexts are equal. I'm calling you out.
We're talking about a mind controlled Cloud acting out the characteristics, behavior, and thoughts of another individual thanks to alien cellular matter in his brain.
Cloud being in a mako stupor and not fully cognizant, yet aware of enough to fully remember and realize his best friend died saving his life...even to the point of snapping out of said coma to say "Goodnight, Zack" and cry, is him being in his right mind as the individual "Cloud Strife." There's no reason to call into question whether or not he really is himself there. He wasn't "Jenova mimicing Cloud/Zack."
They do not form a puzzle unless you abandon all context regarding each piece, and start forcing them together to form a theory. Instead of having facts form theory, you're having a theory from the start, and looking for facts to support it.
Do words have more than one meaning? Does context and syntax play no role in a words usage and definition? That's all I want to know.
You've already fallen off the race track now. You're not looking at the word in its context in the story. You're just looking at the word by itself, regardless of how its even used in the context of the writing. Why did Nojima use the word beauteous to refer to Sephiroth?
Mutual is a part of its definition. But which definition is used is contingent on the context and usage of the word in a sentence. "A long wooden stick with horse hair that is used to play certain string instruments such as the violin" is part of the definition of "bow." As is, "a kind of tied ribbon." How do you tell the two apart?
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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@Zee: Mutual is part of the regularly used definition, yes. So is 'in a relationship' But Cloud was oblivious to her feelings, so that completely rules out the more common usage. Hence, the secondary usage, in which mutual is NOT part of the definition.
But then again, maybe the world IS Sephiroth's to own. Aerith's not fucking infallible. Her words are not the be all end all.
But then again, maybe the world IS Sephiroth's to own. Aerith's not fucking infallible. Her words are not the be all end all.
Makoeyes987
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I'd seriously like to know how one would be in a relationship if they're oblivious to the attraction their partner has for them. That is certainly a curious situation.
Makoeyes987
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That's a well thought out argument. That certainly refuted my points on the subject.
Context has always been important. It's the foundation of accurate, and relevant character analysis and debate. Picking and choosing words with no weight placed on their context and/or syntax is half hazarded and sloppy analysis.
Lifestream White was never about Cloud's feelings. They were about Aerith's. That's a misrepresentation of the very novella, right there.
I ask again, how Cloud could be in a relationship with someone who he's oblivious to, regarding their feelings for him.
Context has always been important. It's the foundation of accurate, and relevant character analysis and debate. Picking and choosing words with no weight placed on their context and/or syntax is half hazarded and sloppy analysis.
Lifestream White was never about Cloud's feelings. They were about Aerith's. That's a misrepresentation of the very novella, right there.
I ask again, how Cloud could be in a relationship with someone who he's oblivious to, regarding their feelings for him.
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Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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Zee, I have to ask.
ARE YOU READING WHAT I AM GODDAMN SAYING?
I am saying AERITH ISN'T USING THE WORD IN THAT SENSE. BECAUSE THAT SENSE IS NOT A SENSE THAT MAKES SENSE GIVEN THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE. HENCE THE USAGE OF THE ALTERNATE SENSE IN WHICH CLOUD LIKING HER BACK IS NOT A NECESSARY COMPONENT OF USAGE.
AM I NOW CLEAR?
And context IS always important. It's how we know tender memories are ones well thought of, not ones that are sensitive to pain, or softened by kneading or hammering.
Makoeyes987
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!Fallacy Check
Zee +1 Ad Hominem, +1 False Dilemma
Zee +1 Ad Hominem, +1 False Dilemma
Dashell
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My point about context was just something I was pointing out, it wasn't meant to be part of an argument. Zee summed it up, Cleriths say Cloud's name wasn't mentioned in Reunion Files so it can't be him/must be Tifa's traits, Clotis say Cloud didn't have feelings toward Aerith so it must just mean she loves him.
Okay my point is not that he was totally not himsef/being controlled by someone else... my point is that he wasn't fully himself. He was out of it, he could recognize things here and there, but he wasn't fully cognizant as you put it, thus was not fully himself.
You can recognize things and realize things when you're... out of it and still not be yourself... experience talking BTW.
Me crossing that out and saying NM was me conceding.
Looking at each piece, piece by piece and drawing your own conclusion on each piece and not looking at it as a whole is where you and I disagree.
I mean really that's what the Cleriths have been doing with Cloti evidence for years. Yes I know there's way the hell more Cloti evidence then the evidence of Cloud loving Aerith but still...
Also I want to make something clear, I'm by no means saying that what Cloud felt for Aerith is even CLOSE to what he has with Tifa. You can't really compare the two...
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Zee
wangxian married
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For the sake of clarity, all anyone is really saying right now (I'm pretty sure) is just that Cloud and Aeris had some sort of mutual romantic feelings for each other when she was alive. Not that they were in eternal tru wuv, but there was something there that they both felt. Cloud doesn't have to be aware of Aeris' feelings to feel something for her. This has nothing to do with his current relationship with Tifa.
However, it does seem to be enough for some people to flip their shit over.
Makoeyes987
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Don't point things out, debate. Don't get side tracked and make generalizations that are wrong and/or irrelevant. Are we having a debate, or are you now an arm-chair e-people watcher? Step up or step out.
Who was he then? He was Cloud. He was handicapped, but he was lucid enough to hold a conversation and fulfill the wish of his dying friend. Your argument of him not being himself for Zack's death makes no sense, because the depiction shows us Cloud acting sane and lucid to say goodbye to Zack.
If you're coming out of a medical coma, and you're able to realize where you are, what the date is, and have a tearfelt reunion with your family, you may not be fully alert, but it doesn't change the fact you are in your present, true state of mind regarding your emotions. Are you saying that because Cloud was injured, and weakened due to mako poisoning, his true feelings regarding the event are not his own? Even though he's himself?
You're drawing irrelevant conclusions. A robot cat stating his own opinion (and is notorious for wrong predictions) at the behest of a girl who clearly has the hots for the guy, a woman being jealous of what she perceives as potential competition, a guy asking what Cloud holds dear, and a 5 year old stating her opinion of what the guy thinks of the girl, suddenly means the guy who is said to be oblivious to romance, is now pursuing someone?
How does that make sense as a conclusion based on the actual context and situations of those moments?
And for the sake of clarity, I'm asking for when the heck these romantic feelings were manifested by Cloud.
Why has no one answered me yet? All I've gotten are people hemming and hawwing over how Aerith's words are equal to the creators, snark about how context isn't important, debate fallacies and that apparently Clotis think she's crazy. I want a tangible expression of romantic interest from Cloud demonstrated to me. If its happened, it shouldn't be such a hard thing to put up.
Where is it?
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Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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Stop abusing language and common sense and pick up some reading comprehension, we'll talk.
Says the woman who is begging out of admitting she was misreading what I was saying by complaining about my use of capslock.
You want to make the point that Cloud loved Aerith, MAKE THAT POINT FIRST.
Make this more than your assertion or supposition. Make this concrete.
Zee
wangxian married
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People have answered you. I'm pretty sure I've pointed out a few scenes for you myself where Cloud indicates interest in Aeris. And it's really not that hard to figure out. If you just consider scenes in FF7 where he expressed interest in her and take off the bias goggles for one second, you'll no longer be so confused as to why she calls him her koibito; at least during her time alive.
It's the same principle as Tifa's line. Cloud is never mentioned, but if you add up their interactions, you don't really have to guess as to who she means.
One use of the word didn't magic its way out of the sky — so why would the other one?
Fairheartstrife
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I don't think anyone has 'flipped their shit' over anything, but that aside, the contention is the mutual 'romantic' feelings. No, Cloud doesn't have to be aware of Aerith's feelings to harbor his own--he certainly held an awful lot of unspoken love for Tifa--HOWEVER, those emotions were revealed to the player and to Tifa. For Aerith to assert that she and Cloud were mutually romantic, there would have had to have been some sort of 'reveal' from him to her for her to make that assertion, or, she is indeed bat-shit crazy. And since that never happens--in-game or any compilations thereafter or attributed to it--it stands to reason that Aerith referes to Cloud as her 'beloved'. Someone that she holds in great affection.
Makoeyes987
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You've pointed out scenes that show only interest from Aerith's end. Not Cloud's. It's very hard to figure out what you're talking about, if:
A.) Cloud's oblivious to Aerith's advances.
B.) Cloud's too busy hiding a weak ego and heeding the call of Jenova to be in a relationship.
C.) Cloud's "date" with Aerith results in him barely speaking, only going "...............?", "I'm right here," and "Yeah." Not even touching her.
D.) Nojima in regards to Case of Tifa refers to Aerith and Cloud as a "maybe" and "would have." An unrealized potential.
So forgive us for not quite getting what you're saying, in terms of integrating it with the already established facts of the story. Where was it revealed Cloud was itching to date Aerith, and they were together during disc 1 during the chase after Sephiroth?
And stop trying to cherry pick the reasoning of one word outside of its context and usage. "Koibito" needs to have a specific place and context to fully guage its meaning and purpose. Stop lifting it from the story and referring to it in isolation. Where's the logic in assuming it means the same thing in regards to Nomura describing Tifa's character in the Compilation, compared to when Aerith uses it to express her thoughts/views on Cloud and his symbolism?
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Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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Neither use magicked its way out of the sky. But there's no way in the context of FFVII OR the compilation for Aerith to see Cloud as a koibito in the boyfriend sense without being mistaken or exaggerating. Hence the Beloved meaning- WHICH EXISTED BEFOREHAND- being offered as an explanation which DOES fit in the overall context.
And I've not seen actual instances offered that Cloud has romantic interest. Indications that he cares about her- which even Cid does- but nothing to truly indicate he cares 'for' her.
Remember, this is about who Cloud wants, NOT about Aerith getting who she wants, or Tifa getting who she wants. So while COLW is interesting in that it's a look into Aerith's mindset, it's IRRELEVANT. It's not about the girls winning. It's about Cloud indicating. Where does CLOUD indicate?
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Zee
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Who is exaggerating? I'm saying they had mutual feelings for each other that were romantic. I never said they were in eternal tru wuv or even dating.
@mako:
a) He doesn't have to be aware of her feelings to like her.
b) never said he was dating her
c) All of his dates generally go like this
d) There was chemistry there that never had a chance to blossom, so yes, it's quite unrealized. A love that could never be~~~~
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
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Quexinos said:
And what's the relevance, and why are you doubting Cloud's awareness and sense of self then? What is your point, or did you have one?
Zee said:
A.) If he's not aware, then how can they be together?
B.) So how were they lovers if they weren't together?
C.) Yup.
D.) Well strip me naked, and call me Bruce. Do we have a consensus here?!
With you acknowledging they weren't dating, their love could never be, and they had chemistry that never had a chance to blossom, I think you've pretty much conceded our point that they never had no romantic relationship, or were lovers. If that's the case, we can draft up the peace treaty and be done.
Zee
wangxian married
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I said this since I started posting here, you just never pay attention. You can actually feel something for someone and not date them. I know this is shocking, so I'll give you a minute to chew on it.
If they both had romantic feelings for each other (how much you can determine on your own, idc) when she was alive, that's a mutual feeling and hence, koibito. c:
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
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Except A: That's not a proper usage of Koibito's primary meaning. To love someone who loves you back but who is UTTERLY UNAWARE of your love is not sufficient to be a 'mutual' type Koibito. You have to actualize somehow. Elsewise, you are still both 'Beloved' type koibitos of each other.
B: You haven't said when he showed romantic feeling. You're still asserting it as so without validating the assumption.
Makoeyes987
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We've reached consensus on 75% of this. So that's great.
I'm still going to have to ask where and when Cloud showed romantic feelings for her though.
They had chemistry, Nojima admitted it. But did that chemistry go anywhere? Sadly, not. Whatever "romantic feelings" Cloud had for Aerith (which I'm hard pressed to see, doesn't equate to the usage of "koibito" you and Like Vines were referring to and oddly enough..people seem to have a bit of trouble pinning down concretely) is insignificant due to their duration and lack of substantive realization. Whatever relationship was/going to emerge barely made it out the gate before Aerith got killed. And boom. Cloud wakes up and remembers who he really wants.
I'm still going to have to ask where and when Cloud showed romantic feelings for her though.
They had chemistry, Nojima admitted it. But did that chemistry go anywhere? Sadly, not. Whatever "romantic feelings" Cloud had for Aerith (which I'm hard pressed to see, doesn't equate to the usage of "koibito" you and Like Vines were referring to and oddly enough..people seem to have a bit of trouble pinning down concretely) is insignificant due to their duration and lack of substantive realization. Whatever relationship was/going to emerge barely made it out the gate before Aerith got killed. And boom. Cloud wakes up and remembers who he really wants.
Fairheartstrife
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Guys, come on. They are clearly in a relationship of un-actualized, un-realized and un-revealed love. I mean, duhr, that's the BEST kind of love, and OF COURSE it's mutual. That's just a given, based on the aforementioned un-revealed. Just because they don't SHARE it with one another doesn't negate mutuality... I mean, look up the word mutual in the dictionary. It's right after Koibito--which is a SYNONYM for mutual. So, yeah, why are we arguing? It's pretty simple really.
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