LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

The one he lives with or the dead one?

  • Living

    Votes: 96 88.9%
  • Dead

    Votes: 12 11.1%

  • Total voters
    108
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Don't worry, I get that a lot. You're not the only one. I realize that I am too awesome to be as young as I am. Age is just a number. Love is blind. Don't count your chickens before they've fried.

See? I'm overflowing with wisdom and knowledge way beyond my years. :monster:

It's more the perversity, shortstack.

So I'm reduced to Googling "Cloud With Two Vaginas Penises Having a Threesome With Tifa and Aerith"...

...hmm... safety filter? What safety filter? :awesome:

You has fun with that.

Like the Wicked Witch of the East? Groovy.

Like most everyone, really.


no u

I'd like to introduce you to a fandom called Star Wars. :awesome:

5 mile Executors, 3 million clones, 3 trillion people on a world spanning ecumenopolis... It goes on and on.
I'll tell you about the 'Fandalorians' sometime.
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
Yeah, kind of annoyed at the moment. I was being nothing less than polite, and if debating Cloti isn't the problem, but just thinking it on the premises is, then whatever. It's a lame rule, and I've really got no interest in going back after that.
Yeah, it's the rule, sure, but whatever has been said about any of us here -- and, yeah, some of the flak TLS takes is earned -- no one is prevented from mentioning that they have a certain point of view.

Yeah, they say that Clotis are allowed to join, they just have to be aware of the rules and that anything Cloti is dirty to see, look, or speak of, lol. So yeah, you're allowed, but only if you realize that you're an untouchable. :lol: Well every Forum has it flaws, and I can say I've been a real bitch in some of these posts. :awesome: I do like that you can voice your opinion here though.

That's really the straw that broke the camel's back for me. AerithGainsborough actually wanted to keep talking to me and was told that she could, but I couldn't respond to her. So fuck it. I've got better shit to do with my time.

Well, she is Pretty YOung Thing on TNC, so maybe you could PM her and continue your discussion with her? c:

Harry/Draco is the canon, right?

*crickets chirp*

Right?
Of course it is, hon. ::pats:: Of course it is.

HD.jpg
:awesome:

I imagine the moment of truth probably looked something like this.

L.M.F.A.O.

Clack is canon. What else is new

Meibito, I have a desire for you. ;)

Edit: I think all fandoms can get really crazy.
 
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Vendel

Banned
For real. Even psycho Harry/Hermione shippers have accepted canon, they just live on with their dissatisfaction. and that's the wank that every other wank trys to live up to.

And write bad fanfics to show up that bitch JK I bet? "This is how it should have gone".

I honestly have never seen such stubborn en masse denial of canon ever before in my infinite lurkdome :monster:

Obviously you have never argued with Hulk or Thor fanboys.

Although I don't think the number is really that high. They are just dug in. It wouldn't be a problem if for the fact that on the interwebs you can't even bring up FFVII and relationships without drama. If by nothing else than people of various sites just not wanting to touch the subject.


It also doesn't help that with the compilation many new people got sucked into the whole debacle.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Like I said, you're free to be wrong about whatever you like, sugar tits.

Incidentally it's opposite day, so thank you for your concession. :monster:



Bring it, Mary, and feel free to bring the rest of the Baby-sitters Club with you. I'll slap a bitch.

That was actually a really good book series.



Just sayin'. :monster: Reno is quite emotional in contrast to how he was originally presented.

Because he just has such a badass facade inbetween drinking, and acting like a clown around Rude. :awesome:



Yet you defend CC everyday. I call bullshit. :monster:

People who hate Crisis Core, are like people who hate punch and pie. I not only don't get them..I don't want to get them.



I really doubt it. I'd just go ahead and decry them as ridiculous and stupid, which they currently are.


LOL I guess we'll see in the next 2000 years.


Actually, it just says "start fragment program." I don't see "upload complete" anywhere on the screen.

So not only did I remember it actually being in proper grammar... but I injected something there that should be. Just goes to show how the human mind abhors incompleteness, filling in the gaps where they should be.

Well that's odd. My bad then. But that sounds weird. "Fragment Program." Makes it sound like the program's incomplete. Start "Fragmentation" or "Fragmenting" Program would make more sense. What the hell's a fragment?



Isn't that pretty much the same thing that I said?

Well aren't you saying that he had his mind backed up, and then with his dying breath, he "released" the data of his mind into the network and then died?

I'm saying that if he bothered to upload his mind, why wait? Just upload it into the network, and then if you don't need it, delete it off said network.



Wow, talk about breaking news. :awesome:

Explain your position in terms of that one, cupcake.

Hey it happens every so often! Just like every so often, Fox makes a a decent program that's not a reality tv show. Rarely but it happens.

I'm not sure what there is to explain. You were right.



Ho shit. XD That's appropriate. And scary. Frighteningly appropriate?

Exactly. You can probably attribute every bizarre continuity conundrum to that single source. He's like Xehanort. He is the source of all Heartless continuity crises.



I disagree. :monster:

It looks like we'll only get to an agreement by seeing what the book says. XD



Perhaps we don't see what they can do, but we see what's there pretty clearly:

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5756/sisterraycontrols5.jpg
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/491/sisterraycontrols4.jpg
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2228/sisterraycontrols3.jpg

It looks to be nothing more than several monitors with a single keyboard between them. And there looks to be a few circular gauges, probably to indicate what's going on with the cannon.

I'm just not buying that Hojo did this on the cannon.



Oh, it has Internet access? Well, damn, that just tore this whole thing wide open! I mean, here I figured that they were operating its systems and communicating through it via cans on strings. :monster:



I hear they've got this super secret Internet now that lets you talk to people all the way in Europe. :awesome:

Okay, but this is what I don't understand. If they just haphazardly stuck the Sister Ray to all the Mako Reactors, and had it as a last minute weapon to blow Sephiroth to hell...when and how would they give that thing internet access? Why? That doesn't strike you as a little bit strange? I mean if its a goddamn internet kiosk while simultaneously controlling all the mako power of midgar, who knows what the damn thing can do?



It would be a claim if I were trying to argue that it's canon. As it is, I'm trying to argue that it's consistent with the canon titles. Which it is.

Eh, well I'll admit some of it is, consistent, just inconsistent with the actual creator given continuity. It could fit, if it were actually properly integrated.



Alright, I'll let you know when it gets here.

Awesome.



Dude, he was obviously flirting. He even asked, "Doesn't it make you fall in love all over again?" right after. FFS.

Point I'm making is, there shouldn't even have to be an "all over again." They were always in love. The whole fact they portrayed Aerith as not ever being in love with Zack anymore, even though most of the things she did in FFVII were out of her still carrying said lover's torch for Zack, is bizarre.

Anyway, she didn't treat him like shit. Like I said, she didn't say anything. In fact, she didn't say anything to any of the Lifestream Brigade when they showed up.

Silence is crueler than any word or phrase. :awesome;

And say what you will, but Biggs, Jessie, Wedge, Zack, Aerith and Dyne coming together a la the Dawn of Souls crew to save the day is pretty fucking awesome. :monster:

It's also pretty fucking cliche but that was one of the moments and things I did like about Maiden, so fuck you for bringing that up.



I said I'm going to do some translations tonight. What do you want from me? XD

Everything, Tres. Everything.



But only if it's in AC/C, huh? Couldn't possibly apply to the ending of the original game where he was brutally beaten senseless and had a few seconds before actually passing on. :awesome:

What the hell? I don't get how you can even still defend this!



Sounds like Sephiroth to me.

Hell, this is the same Sephiroth who Cloud could hear laughing even though Seph had just lost his body and his shot at godhood. I mean, really.

That's because Sephiroth still had his completed, whole spirit. He may have lost his body, but he was still whole as a spirit, and capable of holding Holy back. So while he may have died, he was still strong and complete enough to enact his plan anyways. So it was like "roffle, you wasted your time for nothing."

Getting assraped in the spirit realm wasn't part of the equation.



Well, you've already said he can make his expression look like whatever he wants it to, despite how he's feeling. For all you know, he was crying on the inside. Did you ever think of that, Mako? Did you?

No! You were too busy 'gasming over Nomura's CG wankfest to even consider how Sephiroth felt! Fuck you!

Fuck. You.

I'd cry too if I got dregged out of the lifestream cesspool by Nomura just to get raped again by the hero, but Sephiroth's such an attention whore, I know he liked it. So no, fuck you :monster:


But, again, I'm not arguing canon here. I'm arguing consistency. And it can be achieved. :monster:

Why, by the way, do you have such a hard time with this one, but have never challenged either of the explanations we crafted for the acrobatics put on display in AC/C?

So if I write an FFVII fan fic, and make it consistent, will you argue it too?

And I dunno..probably for the same reason you have a hard time accepting the changes shown and implemented in Crisis Core. Sometimes things just rub you wrong in their outright stupidity and lack of necessity. :monster:



Nobody said otherwise. Doesn't mean that he didn't think it was worth laughing over when he lost because either a) he didn't think such a thing was possible, or b) he knew it would be possible for him to come back.

You really put Sephiroth on the level of a psychopath like Kefka. Laughing when he should be upset, laughing when in utter torment. I mean, damn.

Why would he laugh if he's so damn bitter, all he can think about is hating Cloud to keep him going? Why would he laugh if all of the shit he worked for fell to pieces? Sephiroth isn't that type of guy. He doesn't just laugh it off like a maniac. Yeah, he didn't think such a thing were possible, but he sure as hell wouldn't laugh and go, "Well shit on me, that fucker did it! El, oh, el."


Not really. Did Shin-Ra rouse a united effort against Sephiroth? Yes? Did they throw everything they had at him at any time? Ever?

No, but no where does it imply they did!


AC/C doesn't have a depiction of Sephiroth losing that final battle of FFVII.

I was referring to the AC/C depiction of the Meteor being destroyed by Holy and the Lifestream there, actually. :monster:


That's what keeps you crawling back. :awesome:[/spoiler]

Sad but true...
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
@Internet on the cannon: I don't really thing you should be thinking about likr th internet we know of. I've always thought maybe the Shinra Company had their own inner network like many companies nowadays do.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
HEAR, HEAR :reptar:



I was a 3 year old ten years ago, so I couldn't have known. :monster:

Also LINKAGE PLZ.



Uhh... Elmyra?

Dude... Does this mean I have contributed to the delinquency of a minor? I... I feel so... AWESOME! Although really it seems to me you didn't need all that big a contribution. Still, some of my best, most disturbing work came at 13, so rock on.

Ok folks, remember I am new here, so I dunno how to do cool shit like multiple qoutes from different people, or put in cookie monsters, or really anything but single quotes and different fonts and shit. So, if any of my posts are less badass than they really should be... well deal with it.

@Tres Dude, my post was full of punnage and winning diction was it? We should hang out. Also, your debate with Mako concerning the intro to DC, here's my two bits about that. I think you both have a point in a way, I do think it was just Hojo's mind that was copied into the network, not his literal soul. So I have no issue with him being in the Lifestream and in the network simultaneously. But, as Tres' FAQ will describe at length, the source of new spirit energy very much seems to be memories. So once the copy of Hojo defragments and comes back together, why shouldn't this entire lifetime of memories and experiences create still more spirit energy, explaining how he goes from hologramish to ghost-like. As for "when did he upload himself" I would fuse your theories together. Hojo used something back at his lab at Shinra HQ to upload his mind into a computer, not necessarily a online all at once. This was the backup plan, once the team bitchslaps him on top of the Sister Ray, he gets on the computer there, sends the signal to his own computer to begin the upload, and dies. Then his computer puts him online. Make sense? I thought so.

And yes, every fandom has its raving members, its psychoticly delusional supporters of impossibly non-canon romances, etc. I bet if we went back to the time of Empire Strikes back, before we knew Leia was Luke's sister of course, people were all over the "Luke and Leia 4eva!!!" nonsense just cause of Han's "I know." when she professed love to him. Or there would have been if the internet had been around back then. I'm glad it wasn't would have set even more precedents for the Cleriths to use in their insanity defense.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Dude... Does this mean I have contributed to the delinquency of a minor? I... I feel so... AWESOME! Although really it seems to me you didn't need all that big a contribution. Still, some of my best, most disturbing work came at 13, so rock on.

Ok folks, remember I am new here, so I dunno how to do cool shit like multiple qoutes from different people, or put in cookie monsters, or really anything but single quotes and different fonts and shit. So, if any of my posts are less badass than they really should be... well deal with it.

@Tres Dude, my post was full of punnage and winning diction was it? We should hang out. Also, your debate with Mako concerning the intro to DC, here's my two bits about that. I think you both have a point in a way, I do think it was just Hojo's mind that was copied into the network, not his literal soul. So I have no issue with him being in the Lifestream and in the network simultaneously. But, as Tres' FAQ will describe at length, the source of new spirit energy very much seems to be memories. So once the copy of Hojo defragments and comes back together, why shouldn't this entire lifetime of memories and experiences create still more spirit energy, explaining how he goes from hologramish to ghost-like. As for "when did he upload himself" I would fuse your theories together. Hojo used something back at his lab at Shinra HQ to upload his mind into a computer, not necessarily a online all at once. This was the backup plan, once the team bitchslaps him on top of the Sister Ray, he gets on the computer there, sends the signal to his own computer to begin the upload, and dies. Then his computer puts him online. Make sense? I thought so.

And yes, every fandom has its raving members, its psychoticly delusional supporters of impossibly non-canon romances, etc. I bet if we went back to the time of Empire Strikes back, before we knew Leia was Luke's sister of course, people were all over the "Luke and Leia 4eva!!!" nonsense just cause of Han's "I know." when she professed love to him. Or there would have been if the internet had been around back then. I'm glad it wasn't would have set even more precedents for the Cleriths to use in their insanity defense.

'Bet' nothing. I've heard stories.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I figured someone would have Ryu. But, not having heard it with my own ears, I figured I'd phrase it hypothetically and work from there.

That woulda made the LTD easier eh? Aerith turns out to be Cloud's long lost sister, and thus we never have to worry about it again. Except I don't know if even that would stop the pinkers, I actually made reference to this thread to a fellow FFVII fan outside the forum and got my ass BLASTED with rage.

"There are no Cloti 'facts!' Aerith is Cloud's one and only love and nothing else can be proven!" This. Really. Happened. They didn't even have an argument as weak as ribbons and carp, just outright, unfounded denial. And anger. Two steps on the road to acceptance at once, cool. Anyone had a Clerith try bargaining yet?
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I know a girl who, in a brief mention of something FFVII related a few years ago (I can't remember what about) she mentioned something about the "love story." My immediate thought was, "FFVII has a love story?" As in, a huge epic Hollywood style love story?

Not it doesn't, but the topic was changed quickly after that and I really didn't want to talk about it. lol
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
The only love story I remember in FFVII wasn't epic, nothing hollywood about it. And, not surprisingly considering one third of the triangle was dead and Cloud had known Tifa and wanted to get on her good side since before she got stacked (or was Tifa born with boobs?) that love story was entirely about her. But it was still a background feature that only came up to the surface on occasions like the Highwind scene, and in the lifestream. It was never a huge blasting in your face thing. Which is one reason I liked it so much.

And this has little to do with recent posts, but can we have another madlib? Something up there with "Many different gumballs... fucked." please? Cause dude I was totally just this side of pissing myself for that.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I figured someone would have Ryu. But, not having heard it with my own ears, I figured I'd phrase it hypothetically and work from there.

Fair enough.

That woulda made the LTD easier eh? Aerith turns out to be Cloud's long lost sister, and thus we never have to worry about it again. Except I don't know if even that would stop the pinkers, I actually made reference to this thread to a fellow FFVII fan outside the forum and got my ass BLASTED with rage.

Hey, if FFXIII is an FFVII parallel like everyone says, then Aerith IS Cloud's sister!

"There are no Cloti 'facts!' Aerith is Cloud's one and only love and nothing else can be proven!" This. Really. Happened. They didn't even have an argument as weak as ribbons and carp, just outright, unfounded denial. And anger. Two steps on the road to acceptance at once, cool. Anyone had a Clerith try bargaining yet?

A few. I think most essays are a combo of that and denial.
I've seen people who don't want to count anything from before 2003 and are 'skeptical' of sources they don't like too. Quex can tell you more.
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I'd agree with you about the essays being a form of bargaining. Except, for the most part don't they tend to twist Tifa into an evil slut who should be killed with no connection to Cloud but clingy bitchness? If they had REALLY reached the bargaining step, then wouldn't it be more "Ok, we'll agree that Tifa isn't a total whore, if you'll agree to ____?"
 

Isabella

Your Mom
Except, for the most part don't they tend to twist Tifa into an evil slut who should be killed with no connection to Cloud but clingy bitchness?
Well, that and she's apparently using the children to try to "trap" Cloud, and she deliberately lied to him repeatedly to preserve her own fantasy of him being a soldier. The demonizing has reached a fever pitch lately. Almost as if people are feeling threatened or something.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
More threatened, to be specific. It's getting harder and harder to avoid the blatancy of the narrative and are getting desperate. Someone just tried to argue that because Tifa was Jealous of Aerith as a love Rival, the bond between Cloud and Aerith was romantic.
And since you came here to quote mine that and ignore 'Cloud is none the wiser' if you're seeing this Enigma, HI!
 
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Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I haven't really met many Cleriths in the last few years, though to be fair that could be because I didn't go looking for them. This is my first time really posting on a Final Fantasy based forum after all. But yeah, they seem to be loony as hell.

The narrative is more clear than I think it gets without actually showing the characters in a stereotypical romantic scene. Which probably wouldn't work anyway, Clerith would damn it for Cloud "looking awkward" or something retarded like that. Claim he wouldn't really want to be there, that he was just "pitying" the evil slut trapweaver who by all rights shouldn't want him anymore since he's not the overly strong/unsympathetic asshole they say she wanted to keep him as.

Which, has anyone referred to this? If she really was lying to Cloud to keep him the way she wanted him rather than out of fear of destroying his sanity again (kinda like waking a sleepwalker was how I saw it, only way worse) then how do they reconcile that she still wants him now that he is himself again? Let alone that she is the one who put him back together when he broke.

And why do I bother asking? Like Aerith herself, according to us Clotis who dare suggest this in reference to koibito having one set in stone meaning: Cleriths are batshit crazy,
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
And since you came here to quote mine that and ignore 'Cloud is none the wiser' if you're seeing this Enigma, HI!

You know, that shit pisses me off more than anything else they do. You wanna live in a happy pink fairytale? Fine, come then and state your beliefs and defend that position, but STOP--for the love of internet geekdom everywhere-- being too chicken shit to do anything more than lurk and run.

And the using TLS translations and sources, but refusing to acknowledge them as credible--or even WHERE you got your information--BULLSHIT.

Fucking cowards. There, I called it; and I'm calling you out.
 

Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch

Which, has anyone referred to this? If she really was lying to Cloud to keep him the way she wanted him rather than out of fear of destroying his sanity again (kinda like waking a sleepwalker was how I saw it, only way worse) then how do they reconcile that she still wants him now that he is himself again? Let alone that she is the one who put him back together when he broke.

They don't. She's a clingy bitch that's pathetic and loves rejection. :loopy:

And Tifa NEVER fucking LIED to Cloud. In fact, she was JUST as confused as he was--maybe more so--about the events of Nibleheim, because Cloud KNEW shit he shouldn't have known. If anything, she doubted herself.
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
And the using TLS translations and sources, but refusing to acknowledge them as credible--or even WHERE you got your information--BULLSHIT.

Yeah, this one definitely bugs me the most. It makes NO sense to use translations from a site that is apparently wrong.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
You know, that shit pisses me off more than anything else they do. You wanna live in a happy pink fairytale? Fine, come then and state your beliefs and defend that position, but STOP--for the love of internet geekdom everywhere-- being too chicken shit to do anything more than lurk and run.

And the using TLS translations and sources, but refusing to acknowledge them as credible--or even WHERE you got your information--BULLSHIT.

Fucking cowards. There, I called it; and I'm calling you out.

While we're calling out cowards, I'd like to call out FFG, Anastar, Shroudy, and everyone else over there who are perfectly willing to talk about something at their forum until is makes them uncomfortable, get the last word, then force it off the forum to TNC and then never go to the forum to keep discussing it. Like you've done to Tres TWICE NOW
Especially for FFG, who used to proudly and without irony wear a 'best pwner in debates' tag... and never EVER participate in debate.
Listen, we all know you're never going to leave your pink fortress because you're far too afraid of handing your ass handed to you somewhere you don't have ultimate power. You can stop pretending.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
While we're calling out cowards, I'd like to call out FFG, Anastar, Shroudy, and everyone else over there who are perfectly willing to talk about something at their forum until is makes them uncomfortable, get the last word, then force it off the forum to TNC and then never go to the forum to keep discussing it. Like you've done to Tres TWICE NOW
call them out all you want, they don't read these forums :monster:

I would like to see them on TNC more often, especially to get their thoughts on the new info such as the relationship charts. I MEAN FRICKEN CHILDHOOD FRIENDS FOR WAKKA AND LULU HOLY SHIT!

And god damn I had a Fraggle Rock video I wanted to post it that explained what I was going to say perfectly.. but it's not there anymore >_<
... oh well here's one that's close:


... okay it's not close at all, in fact that's like the only video that worked...
Seriously does anyone know how to view blocked videos on youtube?
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
They have flunkies watching.

Shall I go do it at TNC? Unless someone wants to take this message over to Pink Hell for me.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
The :quote:flunkies:quote: watch on their own volition.

And if you really wanna try posting it on TNC I don't really mind, but the thing is here they just don't enjoy debating. And there's no way you can make them do something they don't like doing. I debate cause I like it, if I didn't, I wouldn't :monster:
 

Celes Chere

Banned
AKA
Noctis
they don't read these forums

Lol, it's not nice to lie Quex. Yeah, some of them do. And then word spreads. If I recall, there was a thread created about TLS, amirite? About TNC though, if they don't want to show up oh fracking well, they don't have to. Just don't tell someone they can't reply, and then REPLY to them and claim that you WIN THE DEBATE. And something that bothers me about TNC are the threads getting closed for dumb reasons.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Lol, it's not nice to lie Quex. Yeah, some of them do. And then word spreads.
FFG, Anastar and Shroudy don't... at least I know Anastar doesn't cause she has an account here that hasn't been active in a long time.

And something that bothers me about TNC are the threads getting closed for dumb reasons.
This happened once... at least.. the other times the threads reopened :(
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
The :quote:flunkies:quote: watch on their own volition.

And the higher ups read when they report back.

And if you really wanna try posting it on TNC I don't really mind, but the thing is here they just don't enjoy debating. And there's no way you can make them do something they don't like doing. I debate cause I like it, if I didn't, I wouldn't :monster:

Quex, they don't like LOSING.
And if they don't want to debate, they shouldn't do it behind closed doors and act like they're being brave, which is what they DO.
 
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