LTD, round 3: This time, we settle it with Jello Wrestling

[Neutron Ronnie]

I have trouble wrapping my head around how someone can see Clerith from AC. Now I have played FFVII but I had not read OTWTAS. Nor was I really interested in the LTD.

But it didn't take massive deductive reasoning to see Cloud was at one point living with Tifa and the children(and all that implies). And nothing stuck out to me about Cloud or Aeriths's actions. It did not seem romantic to me. If anything Cloud just appeared unnecessarily depressed.

Well, you have to understand that they're just going into this movie without any previous knowledge of the game and no concern for the LTD. Nothing to indicate anything that happened from the night beneath the Highwind.

And yes, it's obvious that Cloud was living with Tifa and the kids, but he's not anymore. Advent Children never specifies why he left, IIRC. And you see him moping, moping about Aerith. The conclusion my friends drew was that he left out of guilt; him living in her church (I had to explain that it was one of her favorite haunts) seemed to reinforce their idea that he was lingering in places that reminded him of her the most.

And his depression is understandable if you remember how she died. But if you don't know how she died - in front of him, and almost at his hands, I can definitely see why some people might assume that unnatural depression is born from love. Just saying.

I'd also like to add that on further explaining the background to three people who wanted to know more, they agreed that the CloTi pairing was more likely. The fourth, however, is now a rabid Clerith. The fifth said that Cloud was a moody git and that Tifa would probably tire of him eventually and kick him out. (He didn't finish the movie.)

 

[Vendel]

Well, you have to understand that they're just going into this movie without any previous knowledge of the game and no concern for the LTD. Nothing to indicate anything that happened from the night beneath the Highwind.

Yes, and my stance is that anyone without bias that is actually paying attention to the movie should not come away with a clerith outcome.

And yes, it's obvious that Cloud was living with Tifa and the kids, but he's not anymore. Advent Children never specifies why he left, IIRC. And you see him moping, moping about Aerith. The conclusion my friends drew was that he left out of guilt; him living in her church (I had to explain that it was one of her favorite haunts) seemed to reinforce their idea that he was lingering in places that reminded him of her the most.

So what was their conclusion about Cloud's interactions with Tifa, Marlene and Denzel? What did they think about Zack? And the fact that Cloud called Aerith mother. Etc. etc.

The fourth, however, is now a rabid Clerith.

Hopefully you don't associate with that person anymore.....

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

So what was their conclusion about Cloud's interactions with Tifa, Marlene and Denzel? What did they think about Zack? And the fact that Cloud called Aerith mother. Etc. etc.

Hm, I don't remember everything they thought of... But I do remember that Zack barely made an appearance in Advent Children. I should get more people to watch Advent Children Complete, and see what they think. Just for fun.

Hopefully you don't associate with that person anymore.....

I moved out of that house.

 

[Homura Akemi]

I remember watching a video on youtube by a clerith-it was about why cloud was so sad...poor zack was not even in the video...he,s sad about zack too

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

You shouldn't watch that kind of thing. It rots the brain.

 

[Homura Akemi]

You shouldn't watch that kind of thing. It rots the brain.

I was curious what it be like...I wish I could remove it from my brain

 

[Ryushikaze]

Make sure to use the high quality mental floss, sloppy.

While the 'Coming off of AC alone' is an interesting expiriment, it's hardly anything more than that. It's not a love story, nor is it the whole of the matter, so you're essentially dividing friends and family into those who see realistic romances or those who are prone to flights of fancy.
And that goes for the pink side too. Relax if you mom saw Cloud with Tifa. It's not the end of the world, you don't have to disown her!

 

[Homura Akemi]

there's more to a couple then what they look like

 

[Dashell]

Well I think I'm about ready to throw in the towel on Cloti guys. I mean listen to this argument and try to counter it:

Aerith and Cloud went on a date and Tifa never did. Cloud risked his life to save Aerith more times did he had to save Tifa. Also Cloud looked like he was about to cry when Aerith was killed.

It's true. They never went on a date
All they did was share mutual feelings for one another, Cloud LIVES with Tifa and raises a FAMILY with her. He adopts a kid with her. He says he can start a new life now that Tifa is with him. But how can THAT compare to ONE DATE?

It's not like Cloud saves Tifa from a falling building, or Denzel from Shadow creepers, or THE PLANET from Sephiroth. And further more, everyone knows you ONLY cry when your love interest dies.

Well I'm done, anyone else ready to quit?

Spoiler

 

[Vendel]

Hm, I don't remember everything they thought of... But I do remember that Zack barely made an appearance in Advent Children. I should get more people to watch Advent Children Complete, and see what they think. Just for fun.

Eh.... It is just that anyone who comes out of AC with a Clerith outcome was not paying attention. Confusion I can accept. But to say "Oh yeah he is in love with the dead one and not the one who was all over the movie." Well that is just...odd.

I moved out of that house.

You should send that person a link to this forum.


And to get back to the pinker PoV on AC/C and the compilation as a whole. How can anyone believe SE wanted to portray Cloud as this truly pathetic/despicable individual who cannot function because he doesn't have Aerith in his life? To the point of abandoning his family to try and "be" with her?

In fact I blame them for The Cloud we saw in CoT and AC. From the creator interviews they assumed people wouldn't recognize happy Cloud in AC. So they had to wangst him up. And that he and Tifa would have problems in CoT. Which to me sounds like Pinker BS infecting the fan base as a whole. From looking at archives from before AC I couldn't count the number of times they refused to believe Cloud could be happy at all with Tifa (funny how that hasn't changed much). And he would never live with her etc etc.

Because of all that we get the "Cloud is emo" or "Cloud can't get over Aerith" stuff.

Well everyone expects Cloud to be a miserable sod. So even though we know he is with Tifa and happy we need to come up with something here to please the fan base

This is just my opinion. I could be wrong.


EDIT: Dammit Q. Sneaking in there before me.

I am not sure how you can glean that C/T did not go on a date. If him and Aerith talking in the park for a min is a date then what is the HW scene? And I may be crazy but I don't think the 1997 graphics could portray Cloud looking like he was going to cry

Also Cloud has tried to kill Aerith more times than Tifa. And that has to count for something.

 

[Dashell]

I really don't think the Cleriths had anything to do with the way Cloud was portrayed in ACC or any of the compilation.

hey you were the one who snuck in AFTER me... I think

Also Cloud has tried to kill Aerith more times than Tifa. And that has to count for something.

LOL WIN

 

[Vendel]

I really don't think the Cleriths had anything to do with the way Cloud was portrayed in ACC or any of the compilation.

Really now? When They put out the ultimanias talking about how Cloud and Tifa are a family and he is happy etc. But then turn around and tell us that fans wouldn't recognize that as Cloud so they had to angst him up? Also the there is this premise that C/T would have problems even without geostigma?

All of that screams pinker poisoning of the fanbase. Or at least the perception of it. Like SE was trying to placate them by showing them the Cloud they expected.

 

[Dashell]

That's like saying you agree with what the pinkers say and you see it their way but it's their fault it happened. I don't think they're trying to please anyone, really CxT is the answer plain and simple If they were trying to please the Cleriths, they'd have given the compilation the ending they wanted.

Really, that's something the really rabid Cleriths would do. If Cloud and Tifa ever kissed you KNOW they'd never admit they were wrong and they'd go on and on about how they're pandering to the Western audience and it was all the Clotis fault that this happened.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I strongly doubt that Nomura and Nojima were cruising the CxA forums when they were conceptualizing Advent Children, nor that they would have taken that as representative of the entire fanbase.

I also don't really see why Cloud being angsty is irrevocably tied to Clerith.

Most players in general would recall Cloud going through some existential anguish in the original game. Really, which pairing you favor has nothing to do with whether you remember how Cloud was from the Temple of the Ancients on through the immediate aftermath of the Lifestream Sequence.

Not to mention his brief episodes before the Temple.

 

[Isabella]

And further more, everyone knows you ONLY cry when your love interest dies.

I cried when I saw a dog get hit by a car and die. I don't think I like what that's saying about me.

But seriously it was the saddest thing ever. There were two dogs and the one that didn't get hit refused to leave his buddy behind. He laid there in the road and refused to move.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

That's fucking awful. I'm sad now.

 

[Dashell]

...so I was gonna go to bed then I thought I'd check the thread one last time and... dammit now I'm sad too

Really says something that the other dog stuck around though... animals are more intelligent than we think.

 

[Isabella]

Yeah I just thought I'd force everyone to share in my sadness.

But honestly, you can't measure someone's love for another by their reaction to that person's death. I've seen folks argue that Cloud seemed more upset at Aerith's death than at Tifa being injured, therefore he must love her more. As if it were as simple as a mathematical equation.

I cried at the death of one loved one; I was shocked into numbness at another. It has nothing to do with how much I love either one of them, as if I could quantify such a thing.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

That's one of their more deliciously Pink arguments - "Cloud wasn't crying when Tifa was beat up."

Didn't Cloud seem more quietly angry than sad at Tifa being injured? At any rate, Aerith was stabbed before his eyes, and quite clearly dead; Tifa was alive, breathing, and well enough to gently rebuke him for being late. One case was clearly not as bad as the other.

As if you can compare the death of a loved one, and the non-fatal defeat of another (unless it's someone you idolize as an undefeatable fighter). Idiots.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Really now? When They put out the ultimanias talking about how Cloud and Tifa are a family and he is happy etc. But then turn around and tell us that fans wouldn't recognize that as Cloud so they had to angst him up? Also the there is this premise that C/T would have problems even without geostigma?

Because they're 'real people', and 'real people' have relationship problems, especially when there's massive guilt involved.

All of that screams pinker poisoning of the fanbase. Or at least the perception of it. Like SE was trying to placate them by showing them the Cloud they expected.

Except aside from the 'Troubles' quote, it all comes in the order of 'We needed an excuse to make him act like the angry broody guy from the start of the game instead of the upbeat dork he really is, so we gave him a fatal wasting disease' then the 'Which is not to say he's not totally happy with the wife and kids, he totally is, which is kind of the problem, as he doesn't feel he deserves them.' followed by the 'Yeah, they might have issues even without Geostigma, but I think the kids will help them figure it out.' To me, this, and the idea that Cloud and Tifa's story will become a realistic drama without some external force, says that it's not pinker placation, but basically saying 'Look, these people are awesome. Totally so. But they are simply people, and people have problems. And then they work through them. That's how it works, even in Final Fantasy'

And in the franchise that killed someone FOR REALZ just to subvert a common fantasy trope, it makes perfect sense to follow up with 'There's no such thing as 'happily ever after', you have to work for it.

And if we really want to look at the responses
Tifa's injury- Quiet and efficient vengeance, speaking to come after justice is dealt.
Aerith's death- Moralizing.
One spurs him into action. The other into a lecture.

 

[Raquelborn]

That's one of their more deliciously Pink arguments - "Cloud wasn't crying when Tifa was beat up."

Where's that screen-shot I took where Cloud is getting watery-eyed...

Didn't Cloud seem more quietly angry than sad at Tifa being injured? At any rate, Aerith was stabbed before his eyes, and quite clearly dead; Tifa was alive, breathing, and well enough to gently rebuke him for being late. One case was clearly not as bad as the other.

Actually, to me Cloud seemed to be frightened that she was dead or at least seriously injured. Don't forget, he looked up to find her utterly motionless, on her side, obviously beaten up and she didn't even respond the first two times he said her name. Hence why he looked so relieved when she finally came round.

The guy was freaked.

Telling him to get his shit together and stop wallowing in misery is not pushing him to be somethign he is not. It is trying to help him regain his strength.

"Behind every successful man, there is a woman," comes to mind.

If you keep agreeing with me like this I'll end up buying you a piano.

<3 Start writing your vows.

 

[Loxetta]

It was just in the English dub I remember hearing it (since I only watched the Japanese version like, once) but the second time he says her name was one of the few instances I believed a voice actor was actually panicking.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Both languages sound incredibly panicked the second time. And as it should. He'd be facing the very thing he took himself away from home prevent, he'd be facing the loss of one of the people he left for the sake of.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

**goes to watch ACC now**

I love that scene.

 

[Neutron Ronnie]

You guys are right! I couldn't detect any sadness, though, more like panic and then some anger when he says "Who did this?" What I said still stands, though.